Tailwheel and cross winds.
Posted by Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 35 comments
I have around 40 hours of tailwheel in different planes and my boss bought a Stinson 108 for me to build time in and I’ve been comfortable in it slowly working my way up in cross winds. I have an overwhelming since of fear now, I haven’t flown it in almost 2 months and I’m just terrified of ground looping it. Any tailwheel legends want to give me some good tips and advice to be more comfortable in wind?
aypho@reddit
Uhhhh is your boss looking to adopt by any chance?
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
I’m breaking into a ag seat next season. I’ve loaded for 2 years and I obtained my commercial applicators license also and all my ratings so he’s helping me out a lot.
aypho@reddit
That’s awesome.
Re: the crosswinds. I wheel land my Luscombe in string crosswinds. Rudder to align with the runway and aileron to within centerline. Plop it down on the upwind wheel and then relieve back pressure until the downwind wheel touches. I usually try and bleed off as much airspeed as I can with forward stick pressure until I feel like I’m about to lose elevator authority and then I yank the stick back and PIN it full aft and upwind.
Only time I’ve had it get hairy on me is when I let my guard down. Keep flying the plane even at a walking taxi speed and until it’s tied down!
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
Thank you, I’ve done a few xw landings in it and I let off some wind correction on rollout and I felt it instantly jerk me and I put the correction back in and had to tap brake
ContributionHour8356@reddit
This!!
DingleBurg2021@reddit
On a nice day. Drive it down the runway, tail up. Practice one wheeling it down the runway. Left and right. Once you’re proficient and driving it on one wheel, crosswinds get a lot easier.
West-Organization450@reddit
This is a good answer and probably more succinct than my ramblings. I think we are both looking at this as more of advice to a beginning Ag pilot than someone who wants to fly TW on the weekends for fun. I approached it similarly to what it sounds like you did. If you’re gonna fly Ag you’d better be able to get pretty comfortable doing what you described.
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
Yes sir, I know. All it is is repetition
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Do not do this. This is a recipe for a ground loop. More airplanes get wrecked crow hopping and high speed taxiing than landing in crosswinds.
DingleBurg2021@reddit
I think you misunderstand. You’re doing this at flying speed. This isn’t a taxi. It’s the exact same maneuver as one does landing one wheel first in a crosswind. Or taking off in a crosswind for that matter. One wheel, upwind wing low.
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Yeah, just something I've seen wreck a few airplanes. Especially with inexperienced pilots. Safer to do circuits
DingleBurg2021@reddit
Maybe so but that’s how my cfi was able to get it to click with me when I was up and coming; and being in the cropduster world being around a lot of good stick and rudder pilots this isn’t just coming from me. To each their own.
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
Fair enough. I was always taught to fly circuits so that you are ready to jam the power in and go around instead of limping around the Runway asking for trouble. Mileage may vary, but local to me at least three wrecks in the last decade have been from people tail up taxiing.
Plus, if the brakes go you lose the airplane.
DingleBurg2021@reddit
It’s a wheel landing, at flying speed but on one wheel. Things get squirrelly and you put the throttle in and you’re back in the air for another circuit. You’re not using brakes, only rudder… cause you’re still at flying speed…
segelflugzeugdriver@reddit
I understand clearly what you're saying, I just don't think you understand the risk that's all. All good, there's room for both of us in the world luckily!
adventuresofh@reddit
Hello! Not a tailwheel legend by any means but I have around 500 hours in my Stinson and I love it! It is such a well behaved airplane and doesn’t really have any bad characteristics. I can’t wait to get mine back in the air.
Are you flying a -1/2 or a -3?
First off, if you haven’t flown it in a couple months, there’s nothing wrong with going up with a CFI or another pilot for an hour.
The best advice I can give is to go get some extensive crosswind training. I have been fortunate to have that in several airplanes and it all translates well. Go find an instructor who has a lot of crosswind experience and really go beat yourself up in the pattern.
The big challenge with the Stinson is that you have a large vertical fin with a comparatively quite small rudder. The most I have landed in is 23 knots direct, and that was enough for me. I can also tell you from experience that the brakes stop working to keep you going straight at about 27 knots direct when taxiing (a lesson I learned with an audience, which was embarrassing) I fly a -1 and those limits may be lower for the -3 with the bigger vertical.
My Stinson is pretty nose heavy, and it will basically wheel land itself. Wheel landing and keeping power in, you have pretty solid rudder authority as long as the tail is up. Once you get the tail on the ground, it can take some good brake action to keep it going straight.
I personally will not 3-point my Stinson in a crosswind because of the rudder authority and its tendency to weathervane. Some airplanes 3-point better in a crosswind. The Stinson is not one of them, in my experience. I saw in another reply that you normally wheel land - with my airplane being nose heavy, I’ve found that a 3-point landing is much easier if you keep 20lb of stuff in the baggage (I usually just keep my camping gear/survival kit back there year round) as it helps balance it out, especially if you are doing a no-flap landing and have the restricted elevator travel.
I like to break down crosswind landings into the following criteria:
If those criteria aren’t met, then I go around and try again. The best way to practice is to go out on a windy day (with a CFI at first) and do low approach exercises until you can meet those criteria. Then you just throttle back a bit and land (I personally keep a little power in for wheel landings)
Double check your seat geometry and add/remove seat cushions as necessary. It’s amazing how much of a difference an inch or two can make!
On another note - does your Stinson still have the Franklin, and if so, what prop are you running? I’m a big fan of low approach exercises but if you’ve got the metal prop you’ll need to be mindful of the no continuous ops range when doing so.
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
It’s got a 0320 in it and it’s the -1. Thanks man! I have noticed the Stinson likes to wheel plane itself. It’s not like a c170 or anything
adventuresofh@reddit
Oh nice, I forgot that was an option (I still have the Franklin in mine)
Yeah it really is a great airplane. I fly mine 80-100 hours a year usually, with no complaints.
Marko1st@reddit
Pull that stick into your gut and don’t let go. & landing at another airport and calling an Uber is something I’ve done more than a handful of times.
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
Right. I have done them, I just prefer wheel landings. I feel like more in control for some reason lol
Cessnateur@reddit
Wheel landings have significant benefits in windy conditions. Raising the tail a bit after touchdown effectively kills lift and helps to prevent being sent back into the air by an errant gust.
Conversely, instantly commanding full up elevator after touchdown to pin the tail down can easily send you back up into the air.
adventuresofh@reddit
If your Stinson is nose heavy, put 20lb of stuff in the baggage. Makes a huge difference on the 3-point and doesn’t seem to affect wheel landings at all.
adventuresofh@reddit
I’ve left my airplane at work before due to strong winds, and there have been times I wish I’d left it somewhere. I still have an airplane but I’ve definitely had some learning experiences that could’ve been avoided.
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
I usually only do wheel landings
CSGOTRICK@reddit
Wheel lander here, align the nose with the runway and stick the upwind wheel down first. Then you play the game of seeing just how long you can hold that other wheel off the runway until you run out of aileron and both touch down. Then once you’re slow enough bring the stick all the way back so you get tailwheel control, but make sure to keep the aileron into the wind. Just my technique though, but it usually works out very well
colin_do@reddit
A good pilot is proficient in both kinds. (I also prefer wheel landings.)
West-Organization450@reddit
I was in your shoes a little over 30 years ago as a 21yo budding ag pilot. As soon as I had my PPL I bought a Champ and built my TW time to start in Ag. I’ll do my best here to pass on my experience and thoughts. First thing I’d say is if you’re not comfortable with the airplane get some dual to refresh yourself. Second…it’s great to seek out input from experienced pilots and read/watch things for info but there is absolutely no substitute for being in the seat and hands on. I see people on here struggling with both TW and trike takeoff/landing phase and my first thought is to get as much time in that phase as possible. Seems like a no brainer but it still amazes me how many people go fly for an hour doing circuits and probably spend a grand total of less than a minute in actual ground effect/touchdown phase. When I was building time i used a private runway to takeoff then fly out only as far as needed to make a teardrop turn right back to an approach going the other way so an opposite crosswind and land and rinse/repeat alternating landing direction. Then you’re looking at 15-20 landings in a flight instead of 3-4. If you have a decent amount of runway length just touch down on the upwind main and keep necessary power in and hold it there for as long as you can. Maybe pick the wheel back up and touch it down again. Just spend as much time as possible in that slow flight/touchdown phase and get used to the control feel and making that airplane do exactly what you want it to do the whole time. Alternating directions obviously gets you comfortable doing it on either main. Also there’s no one-size-fits-all approach…different airplanes behave differently and obviously conditions vary as well. My last bit is unrelated to the crosswind question but is more ag pilot related…I got pretty involved in aerobatic flying and highly recommend at least a little training. It’s not a must do but I firmly believe it helped me to be a much better ag pilot. Best of luck and stay safe!
OrionX3@reddit
Im in a similar boat but the 2 I’m concerned/nervous with are our steerman and bird dog. Both feel fine even in crosswinds in grass but pavement 3 points with those in crosswinds feel super sketchy.
Feels way worse than the super decathlon that I did most of my tail wheel time in
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Wheel land it, and get the upwind wheel down first. Letting it land on the upwind and rolling it for a bit before the downwind one touches is perfectly fine. Touching the downwind wheel first is gonna lead to a bad time.
gosquawkyourself@reddit
Literally have the same fear with a cub I fly now. Academically it all makes sense but flying it can be challenging especially if it’s gusty, even a little for me. Really fucking with my confidence
Auserexists@reddit
Advice. Don’t ground loop it.
Stinson 108s have great flying characteristics, no bad landing habits, the only challenge is the small rudder vs stabilizer. The best things you can have to help not ground loop depending on the wind in one of them are:
1) A good right brake 2) grass
Only use the 2nd flap position for landing and the rudder has better effect in the 3 point stance and coming down from a wheel landing.
colin_do@reddit
If you haven't watched this video, dig in. It's a great discussion of tailwheel handling dynamics.
Get a copy of the book 'The Compleat Taildragger Pilot' by Harvey Plourde, too.
Embarrassed-Gift-938@reddit (OP)
Thanks man
GingerB237@reddit
Just gotta control center line till the last foot then be quick footed on the pedals to keep it straight. Land up wind tire first.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I have around 40 hours of tailwheel in different planes and my boss bought a Stinson 108 for me to build time in and I’ve been comfortable in it slowly working my way up in cross winds. I have an overwhelming since of fear now, I haven’t flown it in almost 2 months and I’m just terrified of ground looping it. Any tailwheel legends want to give me some good tips and advice to be more comfortable in wind?
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