Call to action in California. Bill AB 1557 is being voted on tomorrow! If passed it will limit ebikes to 250w and 16 mph
Posted by John-AtWork@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 98 comments
Find your California Representative: https://findyourrep.legislature.ca.gov/
Email or call and let them know that this bill will not solve the problem of kids riding emotos too fast. It is not addressing the problem and is inherently unfair to riders who need more than 250w to propel them down the road (anybody who can't afford a mid-drive and weighs more than 90lbs).
For more details watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDu_sMhuagM
Exact_Technology6126@reddit
guy i think it's best if we try for a class action law suit it's clear that people are getting harmed by these laws and a 200-300 bout cripple let's just say i cannot make it up the hills where i live under my own power and i do not trust / cannot make it to the bus even if i wanted to. the 750w is pushing it and i do not want to this about 250w when i believe that in order to make in up will with my weight it would require around 450 pounds of force to selfly make it up hill as i need a trike to even ride.
Lordly_Lobster@reddit
They should just require license, registration, and insurance at the point of sale for emotos. That ought to keep kids off them or at least make it harder for them to be on one.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
Having a "Class 4 / E-moped" law would solve all of this. Just make the regulations identical to mopeds and we would probably be 80% of the way there.
I'd say that easily 80% of the entry level e-bike marketshare from a name brand is probably actual class 3, but also nobody is stopping you from getting an "e bike" that can go 65 when you cut a wire. States aren't making an actual effort to enforce on these vehicles as well.
Just-Smart-Enough@reddit
But California has a moped category which includes electric power already. It's one of the few states that do.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
Well then what is this law even for then? It sounds like its just tightening the other categories in a way that runs counter to most ebike class laws across the US. If the point is to control 10-25 year olds going 50 on sidewalks then they should already have the tools available to do this.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Nobody sells an ebike with a VIN and all safety stuff that will fit allow u to register the bike as a moped. Hopefully this law will make manufacturers take that route to sell these fat bike 45mph e-bikes
blueskyredmesas@reddit
That really didn't address any of my questions at all, good discussion though.
Just-Smart-Enough@reddit
Sounds to me like they're just tightening definitions.
El_Guap@reddit
It does. But the limit is 30mph and the class 3 limit is 28mph
Just-Smart-Enough@reddit
But allowable power (i.e. hill climbing ability) is much higher, as is the absence of pedals.
WriterRight9689@reddit
That already exists through existing moped laws. But you need things like headlights, turns signals, DOT tires and brakes, etc. to meet federal motor vehicle safety standards. Which the overclassed “e-bikes” never have because they are, by the Federal standards, unsafe to use on the road. The same rules apply to gas powered vehicles like off road motorcycles and you can’t register and use those on the roads for the same reasons. The standards don’t need to be relaxed because people don’t understand what they’re buying and won’t pay for the correct product.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
The disconnect is because you can’t bike a fast ebike that is registrable for the road use. They don’t make em. These laws will hopefully force some to start making moped compliant fast street legal e-bikes. The big issue now is either u go slow as an ebike or you have to get a full on motorcycle or scooter which are much bulkier and more expensive and gas powered. Just need manufacturers to etch VINs and add safety stuff to the 45mph e-bikes they make. Adults won’t mind getting registration licenses and insurance on them because it’ll be super cheap anyway like 100 bucks a YEAR for insurance.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
If the classification were clarified and e-moped laws were made then people would be able to understand what they're buying more, though.
Also this whole thread is about tightening standards because that's objectively what's happening in CA, the law has already changed once to heavily restrict twist throttles (because those are somehow more scary than trigger/push throttles even though they're basically the same?) and then now we have this law.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
This is a great idea and I am all for it. I think E-mopeds (ebikes that go on the plus side of 28 mph) are actually fantastic tech and nice affordable city transportation. We should have a path to ride such things legally.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
We have a path, it’s the manufacturers that don’t bother with it because before nobody had to use that path. Hopefully the law will encourage the market to have faster e-bikes with VIN numbers in their frames that people can buy as motorcycles or mopeds.
bensonr2@reddit
I think in most juristictions the definition for moped was typically 25 mph. So 28 mph plus would be in the motorcycle range.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
Class 3 ebike is 28 mph max.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Yea that’s why I just ended up getting my motorcycle license and a motorcycle. You can try to register your ebike as a motorcycle through that avenue.
Johns-schlong@reddit
In most states they actually qualify as mopeds and legally require license and registration to ride on the road.
InfluenceEfficient77@reddit
What I looked up the legislators, there was no number to call, only an animated form for the email plus comments on each bill
Cold-Astronaut-731@reddit
Sent!
skatesteve2133@reddit
I just read the bill text. Seems to accomplish a few super important things that I highly support (I am a daily bike commuter). I’m not seeing anything super unreasonable in the bill.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
Yeah. 250W is a little low, otherwise this bill is not too bad. The other bill, requiring license and registration, is terrible.
hallettj@reddit
I think 250 W is fine for people with full mobility. But I've seen complaints from people with impaired mobility or who are elderly who can ride e-bikes, but depend on a throttle to get up hills. The new limit might be a dealbreaker for some people who've seen micromobility as a lifeline until now.
OTOH I've never been comfortable with kids riding on throttle. I was thinking about whether it might be better to put an age restriction on class 2, like on class 3, instead of reducing class 2 power.
I'm concerned about the speed limit increasing speed differential with car traffic, which gives drivers less time to react when coming up behind a bike. 16 MPH matches the European standard - but Europe has lots of 20 MPH streets, while ours only get as low as 25 MPH
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
My bike is 350W and it struggles on hills. Maybe because I weigh 250#, but still.
I have never thought much of the 'speed difference' issue. Beside, once e-devices are the majority of traffic, we can have 20 MPH speed limits on all city streets too.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
The speed limits on streets have nothing to do with the vehicles expected to use them. It’s based on the width, zoning, and expected stopping distance for hazards entering the street. Residential streets here are 25mph but they are also typically much wider than your 20mph streets in Europe. We have a lot of space here.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
You have it backwards. Europe intentionally builds streets narrow to make drivers slow down.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
I don’t have anything backwards. The cities that are doing purposeful narrowing are supporting my claim that the width of the street determines the speed limit. They narrow it to make it feel less safe to go fast for all the reasons I mentioned.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Do kids really need to be able to have a 500w motor? 500w motor with a kids weight and lighter bike of course is pretty damn fast. 500w motors can do 30mph with pedal assist. Way too fast for kids. I think 250w is fine.
I think the stricter laws are going to be in good for the ebike industry since it’ll push manufacturers to start making VIN etched legal ebike style fast mopeds and emotos. Adults don’t mind getting licenses registration and insurance for them. Currently the market for motorcycles has full on gas motorcycles and scooters OR extremely expensive bulky e motorcycles. There are no typical 45mph e-bikes people can buy as a motorcycle. They are forced into these weird illegal gray areas because of the market.
skatesteve2133@reddit
Right, so adults can go for a class 3 which is faster with more power. Not available to kids under 16.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
If it passes I hope they do another bill that applies the same rules to all e-devices, not just bikes.
Major-Philosophy7557@reddit
It’s not very reasonable at all, stop supporting AB 1557!
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
What’s your big issue with it? Seems fairly reasonable. You can still do 28mph pedal assist if youre over 16. If you need more than that, just get a motorcycle or moped.
hallettj@reddit
The 16 year-old restriction for class 3 predates the bill. Same for the helmet requirement.
The bill amends existing law, so what you're seeing is the existing law with some specific changes. Those changes are basically:
timbodacious@reddit
This bill will die with a few common sense arguments. They want to limit an ebike to 250 watts so that it can perform more poorly and slower than an actual human can propel a non electric bike lol. 750 watts is the bare minimum to get a hub motor to take you up any sort or serious hill. Common sense would be to treat them the same way you treat cars or keep the 750 watt limit and just cap their speed, everything else is complete garbage.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
250w limit is for kids. Adults can still pedal up to 28mph.
The issue with allowing any motor size is that it’ll allow people to still go way faster than the speed limits on flat lands or downhill and unlike with cars, we don’t have anyway to give speeding tickets and suspend licenses for poor riders. Cars have licenses to keep people in check. Bikes don’t need licenses because people can’t go that fast on them. If you want to go really fast up a hill, you should look into getting a moped. I know mopeds are like bulky gas powered and annoying but that’s a market issue. We will hopefully get manufacturers to just take their 45mph e-bikes and add VINs to their frames and give us a path to get them registered as motorcycles
CaterpillarKey6288@reddit
California is not trying to pass a bill limiting ebikes to 250w and 16mph. They are passing a bill that is pretty much exactly what the law is right now, but they are clarifying some rules and age limits, restricting manufacturer from advertising emoto as ebikes that can be easily unlocked, making them have permanently fixed class tag on the bike, clarifying that other ev are illegal like one wheels and scooters,
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
Read the bill AB-1557
cutsnek@reddit
So they are targeting e-motos not e-bicycles. This is the standard in many other parts of the world.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
Please provide your definition of what is an e-moto for clarity, if you could.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
He can't.
cutsnek@reddit
Actually, I can. It is why these laws are being brought in globally right now.
An e-moto is defined by its primary form of movement. If the pedals and drive chain are purely there to try and get a motor vehicle into a lower category, it is not a bicycle. In most countries, the standard is that if you can get up to 25km/h+ without a single crank of the pedals (throttle only) and/or over 250w max power, it is an unregistered motorcycle.
These laws are specifically closing the loophole where manufacturers sell bikes with a "compliant mode" just to bypass import and sales regulations. They know the throttle and software are designed to be easily overridden. The era of using decorative pedals as a legal loophole is ending.
This really targets the manufacturers and retailers to cut off the source by holding them liable. Up until now they could pump these onto the roads and blame the users for not obeying the laws while they took the profit. You and others may not like it but this is how laws catch up situations like this.
It's slow to catch up, but hiding this category of bike under bicycles are coming to an end in a lot of places globally.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
That loophole doesn't actually exist. All that is needed is to enforce the current regulations.
cutsnek@reddit
It does though. These bikes are being identified globally as items that are engineered to avoid stricter compliance requirements through primarily:
Vestigial pedals and software masking that intentionally can be easily overridden or modified to "unlock" a level of performance outside its advertised class.
Which is why these laws often, including this proposal have provisions to punish manufacturers and retailers for trying to pass them off as something they are not. It's creating clarity and removing any ambiguity.
These types of laws have been implemented where I live and the change has been dramatic with police enforcement. The fat tyre type electric moped bikes are rarely seen on public streets and roads less than a year after the laws came in. Bike shops are having fire sales on these bikes often 40 to 50%+ off. Insurers are cracking down massively on them, they are toxic stock.
Major-Philosophy7557@reddit
It doesn’t effect any of that, unlock speed apps are still legal as long as you go 28 mph on pedal assist only and still have throttle to 20 mph.
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
They have the 750w motor rating limits too now for the PEAK power. That means you actually can’t go that much faster without lying as a manufacturer.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
This law is also targeting bikes like Lectrics, though, which are mostly used in PAS, so this isn't just closing a loophole but also suppressing an existing and legal market of actual e-bikes.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
Current law is 750w is an ebike in California and virtually all the rest of the United States and 20 mph for Class 1 or 2 and 28 mph for Class 3. The laws already are in place against emotos on public roads without a valid registration and licence, and this law will do nothing to change that.
cutsnek@reddit
This is to stop retailers and manufacturers from trying to pass class 3 bikes as class 1 or 2. This is becoming a common global standard. It's closing grey area loop holes. It's highly effective at stopping these devices being advertised and sold at a class level they have no business in.
It's why people keep trying to bundle e-motorbikes (Class 3) in as being e-bicycles (Class 1 and 2). It's a loophole that has been egregiously abused in recent times, this is the law catching up.
Major-Philosophy7557@reddit
No, class 3 is not an e-moto, it is an e-bike.
CaterpillarKey6288@reddit
The article I've read states the opposite in regards to speed limit and 750 w limit. But if this is what they are passing then yes it sucks. You better buy a ebike before the 2027 deadline as they will retain there classification. But it also makes no sense that a cargo bike will sill be able to be 750w
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
It does make sense. It’s because they have to carry more load to they need a stronger motor. Now should they realistically allow 400lb people to also get bigger motors? Well yes but if we allow any motor size then people are going to end up riding them crazy fast and we have no way to control that. With cars we have licenses and insurance. Licenses can be suspended for speeding and insurance can pay out to injured victims from that speed. Bicycles don’t have these so no we can’t just allow any motor.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
Most class 3 ebikes have an upper limit of 750w, this is pretty much the norm right now so IDK what you mean here. The key legal limit in most state laws is that a class 3 cannot exceed 28mph and is PAS only.
Watts means torque, torque doesn't neccesarily mean top-speed especially if the controller is speed limited.
And before we get into the idea that you can just replace the controller, you can replace components in an ICE car, too, but what we do is just enforce checks and permitting on those, which this law is not.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
The bill is there for you to read.
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202520260AB1557
gzSimulator@reddit
So then, they’re forcing manufacturers to stop lying about 1.5KW being “e-mountain bike” or “class 1”?
Good
blueskyredmesas@reddit
The limit isn't 1.5kw though.
There sure is a lot of misinfo in this thread, you'd think that some vested interest had a dog in this fight, which is wild.
Key_Neat9071@reddit
The cargo bike carve out is weird- you can seemingly put a 750W motor on any bike if you make the bike bulky and put a platform or rack on it. Basing the law around the manufacture date of the bike is bizarre too- most of my ebikes have been bolt on kits, what are cops supposed to do about Bikes of Theseus. All the 250W talk just makes ebikes MORE complicated when people were just starting to get the hang of the existing laws. Man all of these pending/possible ebike laws suck.
blueskyredmesas@reddit
They don't suck for the auto industry though. They really need a W with how gas prices are going.
Key_Neat9071@reddit
Imagine if they made a law like "All cars after 2027can only have 100HP and must be internally limited to 55mph. Vehicles that carry cargo can still have their large engines".
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
We have license requirements and enforceable driving record laws and insurance and registration requirements on vehicles like that for a reason. E-bikes up to 28mph pedal assisted are still allowed by the bill and that’s more than enough frankly.
kmarkymark@reddit
Except that's kind of how regulations work and is part of the reason there are so many big SUVs and trucks on the market lol
blueskyredmesas@reddit
They wouldn't make that law because their campaign finances would disappear suddenly for no reason at all related to lobbying whatsoever (trust me, bro. Don't overturn Citizens United bro please bro I'm begging you...)
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
I think this law would essentially make DIY illegal.
m2keo@reddit
So for the majority of the rear hubbed, heavy fat tire, class 3 and beyond ebikes that are already out there...
They're now demanding no more than 250 watts?? lol. Really?
nokia_its_toyota@reddit
Where did you even read that. I swear nobody has the read the text of the bill. The title only applies to class 1 e-bikes. Class 3 you can still pedal up to 28mph with 750w peak power.
Also anything already manufactured can still be legal if nominal power is under 750w. So if it was legal class 3 before it’ll be legal class 3 now.
El_Guap@reddit
Hope you live in the flat lands.
m2keo@reddit
These lobbyists truly have never touched an ebike before much less know the difference from a normal bike. lol.
whattteva@reddit
I don't live in California, but.... This statement is bonkers and unrealistic.
I weigh 150 lbs and my ebike only has 250W and it's only a rear hub motor, but it propels me just fine up hills.
skatesteve2133@reddit
These people can still get more powerful class three e-bikes, but they have to be over 16, and wear a helmet. That’s a huge plus in my opinion.
Dook23@reddit
A whole 6% grade? Well those are more like minor inclines than hills. Damn, I wish the hills in my area were like that but no such luck.
whattteva@reddit
That 6% grade goes for 1.5 miles. Your quads will still be burning on an analog bike.
Dook23@reddit
I am thinking you are thinking degrees, not me. A 6 degree hill is about a 10% grade and I would agree that is decently steep to ride on especially for 1.5 miles. When measuring inclines degrees are higher than grade percentages. A 6% grade isn’t as steep as a 6 degree hill. I am guessing you actually meant 6 degrees.
whattteva@reddit
Ah my mistake, thanks for the correction.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
I would bet that your system isn't really 250w then, even if it is advertised as such.
whattteva@reddit
It totally is 250W, my bike is just an actual bike that happens to have a motor. So it only weighs 36 lbs instead of the fat tire 70 lbs ebikes that tend to be popular with most people.
What matters more is your power to weight ratio.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
How much do you weigh?
whattteva@reddit
I stated my weight in my initial reply...... (150 lbs) and my bike is mostly a normal bike, so there is no (without pedaling). I intentionally got one without a throttle because I want to get some exercise in as part of my commute. The important part was that it makes my 12 mile commute to the office a breeze and it flatten out the hills because I have to go through a fairly long bridge over the East River.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
Oh damn, the Propella 7S V4 XR is actually 400w peak. Well, so much for your high horse.
Bored2001@reddit
The bill allows for 750w peak, 250 continuous.
It does however limit class 1 and 2 to 16mph, which I think is lame. I think 20mph is fine.
Johns-schlong@reddit
I think the whole idea of an ebike is for it to be an assisted bicycle. 16 mph sustained is plenty quick for general bike use.
Bored2001@reddit
I can easily ride 16mph on my manual road bike.
Ebikes are used for general bike things, but they're also used as commuter transportation. Limiting to 16mph makes it slow and less useful for that. 20 mph is frankly barely fast enough to feel safe around traffic in the streets commuting.
If this passes then there would basically be no reason to ever buy a class 1. Everyone would just get a class 3 which is still allowed to be 28mph. That will up the average ebike speed.
whattteva@reddit
Uh... Yeah, motor power is usually always quoted in nominal power, not peak.... Just like a 750W is really more like 1300 W peak? Your OP doesn't even say anything about "peak".
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
Your total weight of 186 lbs. mainlining 20 mph with a 250w hub motor is just at the end of what is possible on smooth, flat pavement with no head winds.
whattteva@reddit
And that is plenty for an ebike. You sound like you're really more looking at e-motorcycle.
cutsnek@reddit
This is not unique to this bill. Lots of similar bills across the globe are happening UK, Europe and Australia for example for the exact same reason. Devices being sold with barely functional pedelec systems to try and dress up a e-motobike as a e-byclycle.
The pedals on these motorbikes are compliance only and the main grey area these law changes are trying to fix.
In the case of the US it's to stop retailers selling and advertising Class 3 bikes as Class 1 and 2 bikes.
Basically in many jurisdictions, if you don't need to pedal it can't be classified as a e-bicycle anymore and anything with a throttle would have extreme limitations on speed.
DrifterWI@reddit
You don't know as much as you think you do.
I had a recumbent 26" fat tire trike with a 250w Bafang mid drive,
I weigh 280+ and with the gear mods I made I was able to pedal comfortably at 28MPH The weak link was the low AH batteries available at the time.
I replaced that rig with a 20" 750w 2 wheeler for better maneuverability. I had to change both the cassette and ring gear on it to eliminate ghost pedaling @ 10mph
Other than the inherent chain wear that comes with mid drives, I prefer the 250W mid drive.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
First off, you are in a recumbent (less drag), second, I said mid drives could do it, but they are more expensive. Third, 250w Bafangs are actually between 500w and 750w peak. Maybe you should read more and judge less?
DrifterWI@reddit
You think 280lbs on a 28" Fat tire trike is less drag? WTF are you smoking? LOL!!
It's not price that's most important. it's value. Cost per mile.
The mid drive Bafangs are more expensive because they are higher quality and more reliable than the majority of cheap hub motors. What I'm hoping to see come on the market is a mid drive with a clutch designed to reduce chain stretch
If you're not pedaling, it's not a bike.
Optimal e-bike performance require proper gearing, not the cheapest crap manufacturers can find to minimize manufacturing costs.
FYI: I have 40+yrs experience as a high volume manufacturing mechanic and fabricator.
John-AtWork@reddit (OP)
You are conflating rolling resistance with drag. Mid drives are more efficient, I said that up in my original post. They are expensive, I am glad you could afford one, not everyone can.
nufnu@reddit
Getting downvoted but if his bike is what his flair is you're right, it's 400w peak on a 250w
whattteva@reddit
He's getting downvoted because motor power is typically quoted on continuous power, not peak power. His OP does not even state anything about peak power and the law mentions 250W CONTINUOUS power, NOT peak power.... so yeah he's wrong.
nufnu@reddit
I only care that your bike isn't purely 250w, that peak helps on hills
whattteva@reddit
The thread is about OP making bogus claim that you need to have hub motors with more than 250W rated motors ior you have to weigh 90 lbs, which are both ridiculous claims.
nufnu@reddit
Right but it's what my comment was about only. That one comment they got downvoted on I am talking about. granted their phrasing could have been politer, called out your bike wasn't just 250w and technically they were right.
All I care about you can take the rest
PrideTrick7303@reddit
Why any law in California doesn't surprise me. From their tax bill to ebike legislation or making theft legal or giving drugs to drug users to fight against "drugs". Making most beatiful parts of the country as "homeless" shelter.
You must be crazy rich and unbelievable stupid to consider moving there. Other than weather I don't see any single advantage of being there.
Johns-schlong@reddit
I love California. The weather is great, yeah. And it's beautiful. I have access to redwoods, the ocean, mountains, world class food, wine, beer, LGBT rights are protected, diverse communities, high salaries... There are trade offs to wherever you live but I spend a lot more time outside than I could almost anywhere else.
cutsnek@reddit
Don't live in CA (or US) this is already the law where I live, this sort of laws are to kill the plague of uncertified e-motos pretending to be e-bicycles.
I have been riding a 250w mid drive since 2015, I've just purchased a new ebike that is another mid drive 250w compliant system. Mostly these laws are coming in across the globe in western countries to tighten up loopholes of trendy online only e-moto type bikes that are hiding in the grey areas into the hands of kids who would otherwise require a motorbike license, insurance and training.
The "private property" only loophole was being abused massively by unscrupulous vendors who knew people would be riding these illegally on public roads.
The amount of stupid behavior I saw on the roads, bike tracks last year on these bikes was pretty shocking, a lot of them have been taken off the road where I live this year. Particularly for the younger riders.
Bored2001@reddit
In addition to fighting emotos, this bill does reduce the max speed of class 1 and 2 to 16mph, but oddly leaves class 3 at 28mph.
It's odd I think whoever wrote it doesn't quite understand existing laws.