ITA Airways Airbus A330-200 flying with its right winglet missing
Posted by S30econdstoMars@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 114 comments
Vídeo source: mirabel intl
Light_and_Sun_8377@reddit
So why do they actually bother with winglets nowadays? Do they really save so much fuel as claimed?
Horatio-Leafblower@reddit
Oh my god the humanity!
Hustler-1@reddit
Soo... It just fell off? A bird strike maybe?
gordonlordbyron@reddit
Possibly the nicest colour way in aviation.
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
Livery. Nobody says colour way
Ok_Use5356@reddit
That was a silky landing. Awesome livery
michimoby@reddit
FIX IT AGAIN TONY
Novel_Fault9705@reddit
Just a little yaw trim is all that’s needed I assume
ChrysisIgnita@reddit
Would aileron trim be needed too? If I understand correctly the winglet gives a little extra lift for the same AoA, so need more aileron to compensate for the missing one.
TheFightingImp@reddit
As long as Larry "Solo Wing Pixy" Foulke was the Pilot, the plane's fine and airworthy.
rakithaya@reddit
Justitalianthings
ValhallaAir@reddit
Still? Feels like it’s been at least two years
SkyHighExpress@reddit
The winglet isn’t structural to the wing and can be missing with only a fuel penalty due to slightly increased drag.
Out of interest, the same applies to 747-400 and guess what the fuel penalty was.. 0%. Basically, it looked good but didn’t do too much. Winglets have come on a lot these days
llaurinsky@reddit
I highly doubt that the performance penalty of removing a winglet on a 747-400 is 0%. I've found a CDL copy online, so take it with a grain of salt, but it states the following:
SkyHighExpress@reddit
Nice you think that way but cdl are airline, engines and operator specific. I guess my 747 rating above and 8000 hours have less clout than the internet searches
DisturbedForever92@reddit
For what it's worth as a layman reading the discussion;
You came in with a claim that sounds odd.
He replied with an airline CDL showing otherwise,
You posted your type ratings in reply.
Your essentially saying you know better than the airline's cdl because you're type rated, but still haven't provided source for your odd sounding claim
SkyHighExpress@reddit
I’ve removed my licence but it is crazy when you get called out by someone with internet access when you have actually flown that one type in that configuration. Posting current information to a public forum will usually result in a try to the chief
Lusankya@reddit
If we're talking military aircraft, sure. Ain't nothing so sensitive or identifiable in a 747 CDL that you couldn't cover up a logo and be fine.
This isn't objective quality evidence, but there are other people online parroting the CDL from memory that jive with /u/DisturbedForever92's picture.
If it's this easy to find multiple data points that agree and contradict your claim...
Fastpas123@reddit
If the fuel penalty really is 0%, why bother putting it on the plane at all?
blueberrycauzez@reddit
Because it isn't, and the account you are replying to is spreading misinformation.
SkyHighExpress@reddit
Only have 8000 hours on the plane. One missing was zero. Both missing had a percentage. It is exactly the same as when you see a missing seal or door and it has a zero percentage fuel penalty but if there are more than a set number then it jumps up. It isn’t incremental.
In reality one missing does have an impact but it is delivered to the pilot as zero in my operators manual
DouchecraftCarrier@reddit
Is it kinda like how some foods are able to say they are 0 calories per serving or have zero fat or something because the serving size is so small? Obviously they don't have no nutritional value - they're just skewing the numbers.
SkyHighExpress@reddit
Yes indeed. The famous one is the sugar free tictac. Almost 100% sugar but able to be labelled sugar free for the exact reason you mentioned
They class one tictac as a serving as the actual amount of sugar falls below what needs to be stated so then they say it is sugar free
blueberrycauzez@reddit
Thank you for sharing your experience, I'm very used to seeing misinformation spread online so I was too quick to dismiss what you said - my apologies.
TexasBrett@reddit
Does it help cut down wake turbulence?
nycrvr@reddit
Someone please chime in if they’re certain, but my understanding is that winglets reduce induced drag but about the same as if the wing was just made longer. And that this effect is more pronounced at high angles of attack. The penalty is more weight without more lift though.
So a 737-800 that spends more of its time in the approach and landing phase has winglets since they can reduce drag without increasing wingspan. On the 777, they just made the wing longer and eschewed winglets as the aircraft already need a ton of space on the ground and spend more of their time in cruise.
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
So the drag would tend to zero if the wing tended to infinity? The math doesn't math here.
Lawsoffire@reddit
If a wing is infinite, there is no wingtip to induce a vortex, and thus no induced drag.
senorpoop@reddit
...not exactly lol.
Induced drag is a byproduct of creating lift. You cannot create lift without induced drag.
If not having a wingtip=no tip vortices=no induced drag, every commercial airplane on Earth would have some form of a hoop wing.
Winglets reduce induced drag while creating less parasitic drag than increasing the wingspan by an amount that would reduce the induced drag by the same amount.
nycrvr@reddit
Actually yes! Induced drag specifically though. Induced drag is inversely proportional to the wingspan squared or aspect ratio. If those go to infinity induced drag goes to zero.
An infinite wing is just an airfoil.
lvthud@reddit
It's 3%
If there were no fuel savings they wouldn't put them on the plane, why fly weight around when you don't have to.
Coomb@reddit
No. Winglets have no impact on the strength of wake vortices or their evolution over time.
T-MobileSpeedtester@reddit
Read that post again. It's not 0 percent anymore but that was in the old days on the 747
Fastpas123@reddit
I was talking about specifically the 747-400. Why did they have winglets if there was no benefit back then? Sorry should have been more clear
DrPepperAcolyte@reddit
Aesthetic
Griff1604@reddit
Nothing on planes is done for purely aesthetics.
jmlinden7@reddit
The livery is
Griff1604@reddit
True, but there’s also logic behind why most planes are white. Even the paint job is a consideration
sgcayley@reddit
Aerospace engineer here. You’re partly wrong. Fuel efficiency is neither 0% nor 10% but somewhere in between. As far as I can recall Airbus was advertising 4% fuel savings with sharklets. It adds up if you fly enough.
UandB@reddit
A&P here.
If you're gonna be nitpicky you gotta commit. All of those numbers depend massively on the use of the aircraft, profile of flight, time spent in different parts of the flight, etc., hence why the 787 and 737 MAX have very different wing tips.
Allaplgy@reddit
Mediocre automotive mechanic here, I'm guessing that the fuel savings aren't enough to make a difference as far as a single flight plan goes, but enough to make a dent in the balance sheets over time.
Huge_Item3686@reddit
Sub-par surgeon here, I like how the tips look
Strong_Coffee_9999@reddit
The last thing you hear before the propofol hits
simpliflyed@reddit
The last thing you hear before the propofol hits
doctorfortoys@reddit
This joke has everything.
justlurkshere@reddit
I that you, Zoidberg?
DaveAlot@reddit
Bit like car salesmen: we'll sell each unit at a loss, but we'll make it up on volume!
mythrilcrafter@reddit
What's the chances of the missing winglet having the effect of:
"If the lap times look okay with the damaged wing, which they do, then stay out there.... okay turns out you're half a second faster with the damaged wing!"
Allaplgy@reddit
"I think we found the solution."
LightningGeek@reddit
There's a balance between how much fuel it saves and how much it costs to fix.
If the plane is at an airport without company support, is weeks away from a significant check, or the part is not available, then continuing to fly and make money is much more beneficial than the small fuel penalty you will incur.
However, if you're at the companies main base, and the part is in stock or can be delivered within a day, then it may make more sense to wait and fit a new one as soon as possible.
Depending how quick it is, you could even remove it from an aircraft in maintenance, and fit it to the damaged aircraft while it is at a main base. Part robberies are very common, and as long as the paperwork is in order, it is perfectly safe and legal to do so.
Allaplgy@reddit
Oh definitely, I was more commenting on the idea of a "0% fuel penalty" from the perspective of the pilots.
ps2sunvalley@reddit
Mediocre airline pilot here. I’ve also heard the 4% with the Airbus sharklets
Hour_Analyst_7765@reddit
I also wonder if there is extra penalty with the asymmetric setup in this case.
I mean: 1 side has decreased drag due to winglet, while the other side does not. Doesn't that mean the plane has to correct for a slight yaw motion? In other words, a small rudder trim to keep flying straight. The constant rudder input would add even more drag, and maybe some slight roll as well, so also some elevator trim needed (otherwise you start a Dutch roll)
I've no idea what the magnitudes of these deflections are. But if 4% can be saved, it stands to reason 1 winglet saves about 2%, and so the rudder+elevator trim shouldn't exceed that 2% extra drag.
I wouldn't be surprised if flying with 1 winglet is as efficient as flying without any at all.
LobsterKris@reddit
Would rudder trim be needed or it's not affecting anything at all?
SkyHighExpress@reddit
On the 747, you would use rudder trim to straighten the yoke when flying straight and level to minimise fuel burn with unnecessary control deflection. On the times I have flown with a missing winglet, you really couldn’t tell at all and pretty much forgot about it after the walk around was done
RAAFStupot@reddit
A couple of years ago I flew on an A380 that was missing the top half of the left winglet...
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
I wonder if you can actually "feel" the drag on an asymmetrical configuration like that and have to actually use some rudder trim on it.
SkyHighExpress@reddit
Nope. Absolutely insignificant. Also once did a three engine ferry. Apart from the ridiculous take off technique, once you got into the air it was pretty much ops normal
ywgflyer@reddit
Even stuff that is fairly significant aerodynamically can be CDLed. You can remove the raked wingtips from a 777 and still fly, the penalty is pretty large but it's not meant for operational purposes, it's just to get you airborne to a place where you can get the damage fixed.
blueberrycauzez@reddit
What is your source? Everything that can be found online completely contradicts this
Disastrous-Design-38@reddit
A perda dessa parte fez um estrago no avião que sobreviveu, mas derrubou o avião maior: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voo_Gol_1907
Stevethepinkeagle@reddit
This is simply not true - winglets for almost all non-blended wings yield a fuel savings of around 4%. It may be close to 0 penalty on a given flight, especially with a short leg, but it will be more than a 0% penalty.
Will_E_Juan_Kuh@reddit
Winglet missing? When are we going to talk about that greased landing?
imblegen@reddit
Good old CDLs
SkyHighExpress@reddit
Nice catch too. Love that Ita paint scheme, especially on a sunny day
waldo-jeffers-68@reddit
Probably my favorite livery currently in the air. Either that or Fiji airways
vampyire@reddit
both really good looking
mbaforumlurker@reddit
What airport is this? Mirabel doesn’t have commercial service
FieldsOfJoy@reddit
Looks like YYZ to me. Definitely Canadian from the number of AC tails in the background.
mbaforumlurker@reddit
Ahh you’re right. That’s funny, on first glance I thought they were Delta tails
IvyGold@reddit
Very basic OOTL-y question: why did the airliners suddenly start having winglets a few decades ago? I would've thought that this was basic aerodynamics. The same math was available in the 60's. How come they seemingly all reached the same conclusion at the same time? Better engines or something?
Khyle_01@reddit
Close enough. Welcome back A310!
Dooks_fr@reddit
Ok so technically wa wa wa . How the dam it lost it in first place ???
railker@reddit
Who says they lost it?
TonyIsMoney@reddit
Thats a damn cool livery
TheModeratorWrangler@reddit
‘Tis but a scratch
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SI-LACP@reddit
Butter from the butter machine
djsnoopmike@reddit
Oooh, that cost a bit of fuel
SilkRoadDPR@reddit
Hella smooth landing
ZeligD@reddit
I remember one time someone asked about the fuel penalty for a missing singlet/sharklet; I can’t remember what type it was (either A320 or A380), but they said it was about 1% extra fuel needed but otherwise no changes to flying conditions
rdm55@reddit
Early A320 wing tip fence removal was a 1% penalty IIRC. (They don't do much....)
One consideration when operating with a winglet removed is the location of the nav lights. If they are in the winglet then you are limited to day-time ferry with no passengers.
DOOM_INTENSIFIES@reddit
Yeah but add that over the entire service life of the airframe...
rdm55@reddit
I sell winglets... I do that math all day. :)
DouchecraftCarrier@reddit
A couple months back someone on here was talking about the extra fuel penalty on a B788 for having to leave the gear down an extra 10 minutes or so after takeoff in case of a gear bay fire detection system malfunction. The extra fuel they needed to fly with the gear down for that couple of minutes was more than my car uses in a whole year.
LizardKing77733@reddit
Of If I remember correctly, fuel penalty on the 330 for that is 1%.
RatInaMaze@reddit
I had a Mazda this color once!
SSLByron@reddit
On the Miata and RX-8, they called it Winning Blue.
RatInaMaze@reddit
It was an RX-8! One of my favorite cars I’ve had
Patentlyy@reddit
Had a mate with a RX-8, I think it was in his garage being fixed up more than he drove it. But man was it a fun car
RatInaMaze@reddit
Haha. Yea I was one of the lucky ones. A knew a few other folks with them who had flooding issues. If I remember correctly you needed to let them warm up before you shut them off.
MarkIndividual3453@reddit
Fancy
meabbott@reddit
The Langoliers took it.
Accomplished-Bear613@reddit
"I pull up to the scene with my winglet missin"
A3bilbaNEO@reddit
Is the 330 just an A300 NG?
jamvanderloeff@reddit
Not really, similar goals and shares the same basic fuselage cross section but almost everything else was new/significantly redesigned, similar to comparing something like 737 vs 757
Fancy-Dig1863@reddit
Smooth landing tho
Accomplished-Let6097@reddit
Greased it.
Curious-Range-453@reddit
That is one of the world's great liveries.
romanissimo@reddit
Yes, and the tricolore on the tale is such a beautiful retro touch, it’s a nod to the Italian aviation glory of the 20’s and 30’s…
GeraintLlanfrechfa@reddit
+7% fuel
_esci@reddit
more like 2-3
moofie74@reddit
The trim drag would be substantial in addition to the winglet itself.
GeraintLlanfrechfa@reddit
Yeh these days it counts as double
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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scubaorbit@reddit
Yeah that's Italy for you. Just like the cars.
patcatpatcat@reddit
And the shoes!
patcatpatcat@reddit
Is that kosher?
HamasDaddyOnFire@reddit
A smidge of left-roll trim and we're golden.
toddffw@reddit
I apologize for the convenience
bigfatfun@reddit
Such a great blue
DoctorDinghus@reddit
So technically this is an Airbus A329
post-explainer@reddit
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