Frustrated parents of under-16s look for help to enforce 'ineffective' social media ban
Posted by BendicantMias@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 184 comments
OathofBling@reddit
You can’t stop the signal. People will communicate online no matter what you do. I could get around your versions of this when I was a kid and I’ll show my kids how too.
Become ungovernable.
ImNotABotScoutsHonor@reddit
The problem here is that social media and short form content is actively damaging to the mental development of children, and is even harmful for adults.
This isn't about sticking it to the man, it's about protecting kids in a legitimate way.
That being said, these laws are stupid as fuck and allow for government overreach and results in the loss of your privacy by having to give ID to prove your age.
This is a parenting issue at the end of the day and it should remain solely with the parents.
Be a good parent and help your child grow up healthy, not to "become ungovernable" but to allow them the mental capacity to even understand what being ungovernable actually entails and the reasons behind it.
gpike_@reddit
I agree but I still think we should all know how to be ungovernable, in case the need arises, because we will probably never live in a perfect world without power hierarchies.
ImNotABotScoutsHonor@reddit
The problem here is that social media and short form content is actively damaging to the mental development of children, and is even harmful for adults.
This isn't about sticking it to the man, it's about protecting kids in a legitimate way.
That being said, these laws are stupid as fuck and allow for government overreach and results in the loss of your privacy by having to give ID to prove your age.
This is a parenting issue at the end of the day and it should remain solely with the parents.
Be a good parent and help your child grow up healthy, not to "become ungovernable" but to allow them the mental capacity to even understand what being ungovernable actually entails and the reasons behind it.
ImNotABotScoutsHonor@reddit
The problem here is that social media and short form content is actively damaging to the mental development of children, and is even harmful for adults.
This isn't about sticking it to the man, it's about protecting kids in a legitimate way.
That being said, these laws are stupid as fuck and allow for government overreach and results in the loss of your privacy by having to give ID to prove your age.
This is a parenting issue at the end of the day and it should remain solely with the parents.
Be a good parent and help your child grow up healthy, not to "become ungovernable" but to allow them the mental capacity to even understand what being ungovernable actually entails and the reasons behind it.
BendicantMias@reddit (OP)
Hugs154@reddit
I can’t imagine what the proper solution for this could be. We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!
NotMythicWaffle@reddit
You'd think the parents wouldn't give the kids a phone but apparently not, so it has to be up to the government to enforce things onto everyone's devices instead.
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
It's a big dilemma. Because a) there are many benefits to a child having a smart phone and b) if it were possible to control their use of a few problematic social websites and content types the risks of a child having a smartphone become much less, and within the ability of a parent to police within the existing parental controls.
But at the moment it's not possible to control their use of the problematic websites. And even trying to make those websites responsible would not work.
The solution is a digital id tied to all adults. If you don't have one, you don't get to use the problematic websites. A child can get one too, but only to access the list of age appropriate website for their age cohort. This is the path the EU is trying to advance.
whistleridge@reddit
That may be the solution to THIS problem (and the porn problem), but it comes with its own set of arguably larger problems attached to it. Libertarians will call it the first step to Chinese-style authoritarianism (and won’t be entirely wrong), phone companies and ISPs will call it an implementational nightmare (and will be very right), religious types will call it the Mark of the Beast (no comment), etc.
It would be difficult to impossible to both get that passed and to get it implemented in a manner where it is actually used and enforceable. We may be on a path to that eventually, but that’s a “maybe in place when Gen Alpha are in their 40s” type thing, not a “doing in time to help these parents” thing.
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
It is extremely difficult. But I think its going to be tried in different formats around the world and over decades, one or two models will emerge as workable and useful.
I don't think democracies and people concerned with state overreach are going to vote for people who give the state snooping rights. Privacy has to be respected. Just because a model is able to be trusted to verify that you are over 18 doesn't mean the state has to be able to know that you're a regular on the Pornhub etc. The two things aren't the same thing at all. Age verification per account on named social media / per type of social media need not let your posts become easier for a govt to access. Look at the eu model. It has a chance of being helpful... I'm not saying it will work. It only has to work better than Australia. The real target of it is to remove the excuse that the big commerical social media sites use all the time which is "how can we know who is a child when they claim to be an adult and lie about their age?".
gpike_@reddit
voting for people who give the state snooping rights is PRECISELY what they did in the USA.
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
The EU plan doesn't give the state snooping rights. That's very high on list of priorities of Europeans. The proposal is to protect identity but to guarantee age verification. It's tricky, but there is hope.
whistleridge@reddit
The concern will not be the right, but the capability. DOGE didn’t remotely have the right to loot basically the entirety of the American people’s personal information, but they did it anyway.
The strongest protection against a database being misused is simply not to have the database in the first place. And while sure, if a government really want to find you, it can, the harder that process is, the less likely it is to be abused.
And that’s just government abuse. That doesn’t even get into issues like, what if a private actor acquires access to your digital ID and uses it in a bunch of nefarious ways, or the reality that we are probably less than 5 years away from AI making online security impossible without air gapping.
BendicantMias@reddit (OP)
The EU path was just deeply embarrassed - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brussels-launched-age-checking-app-hackers-say-took-them-2-minutes-break-it/
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
That whole 2 minute thing is a pile of bullshit written by a media who works off headlines. The product doesn't exist yet to "break". The technical spec is "ready" only so far as discussions can begin with national teams about integration into their digital wallets. Its just a silly media gotcha that you should know better than to put all your confidence in. The essential technical decision of the EU model is that the age verification has to be done like this a) everyone who requires age verification starts off being assumed to be a child. b) only a passport or national ID card can be used to prove age. It will have a photo of the user. c) usage of the site that uses a token based off b) has to employ some yet undecided measures to ensure that the user is in fact the same person identified in b).
gpike_@reddit
This won't work in the US because everybody in the US doesn't have a government ID card.
BufferUnderpants@reddit
Or just give your kid a dumb phone and wait until they are 16 to get a smart phone. If they want to look up a fact, they can develop the patience to wait for computer access or a book.
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
It's not just a fact. Smartphones are good for a group of friends from a class staying in touch by gchat. And parents can easily monitor. And no one else can join. There can be drama, but it's not the public humiliation / public celebrity stuff that kids can access via the big social media. Dumb phones cant' do that. There are plenty of other apps that can be useful.
Piranata@reddit
There were group chats through dumbphones before smartphone. Modern dumphones are capable of having gchat or other internet enabled applications (search for KaiOS).
Stickppl@reddit
Aborrent police state solution for a fake problem. After you give your kid a smartphone, anything goes. Thinking that a few social network are the issue (which they can be), then anything ranging from youtube to 4chan is problematic as well and your kid shouldn't have a smartphone to begin with.
Fluffy-Republic8610@reddit
We regulate lots of things already. And it can take time to get it right (which is not the same a working 100%). Right is more like acceptable risk. They tried prohibition with alcohol. Then they tried parental control. Now they fine the hell out of people who supply it. And that's only possible because its not illegal to supply it.
It's ok to regulate these new addictive products. Unregulated social media and kids don't mix. But information technology is part of life and childhood should be about safely exploring life with the guardrails on.
So this is all about setting up the guardrails. If Australia's model isn't working, maybe the EU' s will.
The common criticism made about this is that this is the parents sole job. And the solution presented in light of the complexity is... just give them a dumb phone. Well, that's not working. Like prohibition of alcohol was the wrong regulation. Prohibition of smartphones is the wrong regulation. It doesn't work because its' not compatible with people's wishes. And since there is hope for a better way of doing this... certain social networks requiring adult users prove their age before allowing accounts, and everyone else being denied access... then that's the price we are going to pay to keep everyone safer.
ChronaMewX@reddit
A digital ID is no solution that sounds like an authoritarian nightmare to solve a nonissue
ender89@reddit
Kids do not need smartphones period.
madsheeter@reddit
Seriously. If it's a communication issue then flip phones are a great option
TheGalator@reddit
Google maps and Google itself is a great tool as soon as you enter school and go outside
Its like not allowing kids around knives in a cantine because they could stab each other
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
Literally jsut do random checks on the phone to see if you find the apps you don't want your kids on. It cannot be that hard.
TheGalator@reddit
Way better.
Lock it with fingerprint (parents duh) and problem solved. Add playstore and app store and so on and as well as disable apk downloads and the kid needs to be very smart to get around that
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
It's not like most kids pay for their own phone or phoneplan, so really the parents have no excuse not to check the phones if the kids are breaking their trust.
sailorbrendan@reddit
If my parents, when I was young, went into my room and just searched my drawers from time to time I would be outraged, and if a friend of mine today told me they were doing that with their kids I would tell them I think it's a bad idea.
Even if they're the one paying the bills
UMACTUALLYITS23@reddit
Big difference seeing as how a phone is a luxury.
sailorbrendan@reddit
I don't know if that's actually true
UMACTUALLYITS23@reddit
Children do not need smart phones, they want them.
This is the attitude that is causing entire generations to be addicted to phones.
sailorbrendan@reddit
I think that in the modern world not giving a kid a smartphone might also have the effect of being pretty socially stunting, but I don't know. I'm not a parent nor am I a child psychologist.
I think going after the actual problem which is deeply unhealthy social media systems might be the better play is all
JesseHawkshow@reddit
In this day and age, it's basically a necessity. What if you need to get somewhere or make a call? It's not like there's an abundance of paper maps and payphones around like there used to be. The things that society used to have don't exist anymore because smartphones made them all obsolete.
Hachimain@reddit
Hand held gps and a flip phone. That’s what my kids are getting
tylerderped@reddit
I bought my own phones when I was a teenager. I also knew how to get around security. I was flashing new ROMs on my phone daily.
That being said, I was also always been smart enough to not get kidnapped by the big bad kidnappers on the internet.
Traumatised_Panda@reddit
Not everyone knows how to do all of this stuff. My parents still struggle to work their own phone sometimes, setting up a foolproof block like that is not possible for 90% of families. Kids will find a workaround.
Rikard_@reddit
Imagine if tech companies offered an easy to set up option with a few checkboxes for any user wanting to install these limitations on a phone.
Imagine having responsible tech companies.
Moarbrains@reddit
They will pretend to be responsible, but they will really just become instruments of government power. that do it for your own good!
cgaWolf@reddit
Google Family Link is the perfect example for that.
segalle@reddit
Point is: there are a million ways to circumvent basically anything on a device if you have google and some experience. Blocking ips (instagram, facebook, tiktok and so on) based on a token the government issues which SHOULD NOT STORE ANY DATA EXCEPT THE TOKEN AFTER THE TOKEN IS GENERATED and requiring the token to be generated like once a year, without it being valid on more than one device is a great solution.
This would not infringe too much on privacy, any data leaks would only be problematic for the few users that are doing the verification in the time the hackers are in the system. Additionally, the government should give an api which you can feed a token and it returns if it's an adult or not, if not returns: under 13, under 16, under 18.
Unfortunately we're leaving this garbage on the hands of companies associated with palantir.
Both unicef and un should have a strong interest in providing this software, unfortunately the pdfs are not too interested if it can't help big tech
Piranata@reddit
I think there's a simpler way. All routers have the option to blocklist, ISP could simply provide a gui option through the router app/web.
segalle@reddit
But then the parent has to check which devices were used and manually do that, which to tech illiterate people can be impossible. Hey son, what's this motorola g4 4g slim ultra plus? And the kid has the power again
berryer@reddit
also the fact that people have old devices not on plans anymore just laying around. A kid could get an iphone 4 for like $5 at this point, just using it on wifi.
mrdevlar@reddit
This requires a level of competence I don't think most people have.
Rather than asking enforcement for these laws, perhaps we could improve these parent's technical capabilities so they could actually do this themselves.
But I guess you cannot pass authoritarian legislation if you do that.
DJ3nsign@reddit
Plus side benefit, your kid will probably get an interest in cybersecurity figuring out ways around the blocks. It's a win-win
Moarbrains@reddit
Everyone is going to need this.
Volesprit31@reddit
They don't need to be very smart, they just need to reset the phone to factory settings...
joseph4th@reddit
Most kids are smart enough to use Google to search for what they need to know
notislant@reddit
Theyd just delete and reinstall the apps or use a browser unfortunately. Install it at school, uninstall when going home.
Im sure theres some fairly simple ways to lock down a device, but most parents aren't tech savy. While it takes one kid to find a youtube workaround, then every other kid has bypassed it.
Now im sure there are child locks that can't be bypassed, but the majority of parents are going to figure that out unfortunately.
I have a buddy who initially thought it was pretty dystopian to be age limiting social media, but it genuinely does just seem to amplify stupidity and mental health issues, especially for kids.
Meanwhile every time I see some age verification system, it has ties to some pretty bad data harvesting companies. Or discord for example has had age verification bypassed by some kind of cartoonish-metaverse style 3d model.
Ideally yeah parents are all tech savy enough and put in the effort to make sure its not bypassed. But I don't see that happening unfortunately.
Rikard_@reddit
The problem is kids can download an app in 5 seconds and delete it 2 minutes later if they need to.
ID verification is not a sane solution but neither is trying to monitor a kids device. Better bite the bullet and not give them one at all, and when you do, teach them about every risk.
MarlenHamsic@reddit
This is like no contact speedrun. My mum disrespected my privacy a couple of times (literally, three or so) during my teen years and now as an adult I have to force myself to open up to her. She meant well, but it's not the way to go.
berryer@reddit
same lol, I still remember waking up to her going through the receipts in my wallet
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
I think clear rules need to be set before the phones come into play and random checks after trust is broken. If the child doesn't do anything that would make you distrust them, don't violate their privacy.
I would also just put some lock on what apps you can download just to get rid of the ambiguity.
I'm sorry your mom did that, it must have been terrible. I absolutely do not want my kids on tiktok, smoking weed with their friends is probably less braindamaging than that shit.
It's not hard to avoid being a shitty parent either.
MarlenHamsic@reddit
That's fair, I mean I'd try and educate first as well + push on govt to do something to the companies instead of having all the responsibility fall on the single people, but in the meantime we need to do something until we reach utopia :)
No worries about mum; I mean it was really small things (e.g. once she watched me put on her makeup after I told her "no I'm not doing anything go away!!!" because I was embarrassed), and the one where weed was involved didn't even have big consequences for me (she started disliking my friends but I was never ever punished in any way in my whole life lmao. A lot of lectures, but no time out or anything, at all). It's mostly that even if small things that maybe anyone else would have brushed off, they kinda stayed with me. As did the time when she threw away the Dragon Ball manga my aunt had bought me, and I still bring it up almost 30 years later lol.
We now have a decent relationship and just yesterday we had an amazing and lengthy discussion on what is art and whether contemporary art is all art or a money laundering scheme. I do love her.
BufferUnderpants@reddit
Well, some children are also going to hold grudges over being told to clean up their room, or brushing their teeth, or eat their vegetables.
It's still absolutely too much to expect Governments to completely fill in all the slightly uncomfortable parenting roles.
The problem is that it'd take mass surveillance in this case to enforce from the top down, rather than with educating parents.
letsgooncemore@reddit
Flip phones have navigation apps.
basedbot200000@reddit
KaiOS ones do, but I'm not too sure if they're available in Australia. Android flip phones are pretty rare.
HeftyArgument@reddit
I'm an adult and my workplace has banned knives. I don't doubt they'd do it for schools too lol
big_cock_lach@reddit
Bullying is a major issue in Australia, so you’d just be making your kid a target unnecessarily which is why parents don’t.
If someone could make “dumb phones” cool and popular amongst kids, you’d probably have a lot of parents getting them instead. Most of these companies target office workers who want to disconnect or health conscious adults trying to reduce screen time and technology dependency. So there’s none that are really out there appeal to kids. If there is someone doing this, it’s definitely not well known enough to be popular amongst kids anyway, so again, there isn’t really anything out there unfortunately.
Heisan@reddit
You pretty much have to give your kid a smartphone unless you want them to be a social outcast and potentially a target for bullying, because all the other parents are too retarded to give a fuck about these things. That's another problem with the approach we have today because either you convince all the other parents to do the same, or you go at it alone and perhaps fuck up your child's social life.
debbie666@reddit
Yep.
S-Tier_Commenter@reddit
Why would you think that? First off it's an amazing tool for communication, or like when there is an emergency or other need for help.
Secondly, not giving your child a phone while all their friends and classmates have phones, is like borderline child abuse.
Hence it is obvious that the effort should mainly come from schools and the government.
Serena_Hellborn@reddit
there is nothing stopping the parents from giving their child the least convenient phone possible.
S-Tier_Commenter@reddit
There is nothing stopping schools and the government of helping parents too. I don't see why parents should be alone in this.
Serena_Hellborn@reddit
because age verification at minimum inconveniences everyone else, and generally is a privacy nightmare.
S-Tier_Commenter@reddit
This is what NIMBY is all about.
gpike_@reddit
In the US NIMBY is a slang term for people who refuse to let affordable housing be built in their communities because they are racist/classist and think "lower class" people will ruin things.
Idk how you're using it here.
citruspickles@reddit
Any time there's the need to have something just to fit in means there's a bigger issue to begin with.
gummytoejam@reddit
If you think parents are at the center of this I've got a bridge to sell you. The "parents" is the pretext for the government to control what you access. That it is "ineffective" is the government's excuse to tighten down even more.
Whenever you hear that some authorization of additional government powers or meddling is being considered because of "the children", fight it. It's not the children. The government is pitting your self interest against a morally unopposable issue.
gpike_@reddit
This. In the USA "Think of the children!" Is almost a dogwhistle. They are never actually thinking of what's truly good for the children even when they're not straight-up using "concern" for children's well-being as a cover for deliberately harming children. Sadly, the US government more or less officially does not believe children have ANY rights independent of their parents.
Moarbrains@reddit
Most schools around here require computer access and provide a laptop. The state is the worst offender when it comes to screen time.
SovietNato@reddit
With all due respect, this expectation is insane.
cabbagesmuggler-99c@reddit
Why not go the proper route and start hammering down on the social media companies including owners and shareholders themselves? The american owned companies make the algorithms that are poisoning our minds, creating division and hatred.
Elon musk bragging about child sexual abuse pictures on twitter. Zuckerberg doing nothing to make FB take down sexual violence. These scumbags need to be held accountable.
hummelm10@reddit
Why not go the proper route and start hammering parents to parent? They can lock down phones, remove apps. They’re the responsible party for their children, they are the ones who have to make decisions on what their kids should be exposed to and if that includes social media.
marshmallowrocks@reddit
Doing this gives social media owners absolute free reign to allow whatever illegal footage to be aired on their social media platform free from punishment. Why are we not going after these people? Even with the safest parental controls on social media, those posts will still pop up and even after filing a complaint, they still stay up.
We cant just let these companies get away with it. If child porn is posted on the internet, we know what happens. If its posted on social media? Nothing happens or somebody like elon musk will embelish it. Yes I agree there should be more parenting involved but why are we scapegoating the parents and not the social media sites hosting illegal footage?
hummelm10@reddit
They are not free to allow illegal content. They must still police prohibited content such as CSAM. I don’t know where you got that idea that I was okay with it. I’m just saying instead of looking to stricter and stricter laws that end up invading my privacy (such as with age/ID verification) we should be making parents take responsibility. They can manage their kids phones and limit apps and websites. I shouldn’t have to give up my rights because parents won’t put in the effort to parent.
big_cock_lach@reddit
I completely agree that on an individual level, it should be the parent’s responsibility to look after their kids, and if they can’t it is a parenting problem.
This isn’t an individual issue though, if every parent is having the same problem, it goes from being an individual problem to a societal problem. The whole role of the government is to fix societal issues that individuals can’t control themselves. If banning kids from using social media isn’t successful (which is seemingly the case, plus it doesn’t solve any of the other issues with social media), than they should regulate social media to make it safe for kids to use (which will also benefit adults too). This would also avoid the issue with requiring invasive measures to enforce the ban on kids (particularly as social media companies are incentivised to deliberately leak this data and blame the government when it is actually their fault).
marshmallowrocks@reddit
I haven't said or implied anywhere that you are ok with it. I am not even refuting that better parenting should be a given.
What i am saying is that these social medias need to be regulated and owners prosecuted for allowing this sort of thing to appear again and again and stay up for a period of time even after complaints have been made but failed.
Whilst they are obviously not allowed to air illegal footage, they do and nothing happens. If it was a rare occasion then fine it happens. But its every day. Any other company would be shut down of fined to oblivion by now and owners prosecuted but social media? Nahh.
CatzioPawditore@reddit
Because it's wild, in any case, how unregulated social media is.. Almost all addictive substances have struct legislation, but not our algorithm's.. And they arguably cause much more damage on a much larger scale than any other substance has been able to do before.
BufferUnderpants@reddit
Yes, but we can't do anything like we do with cigarettes and alcohol, and put an age cap on it, because the consequences of showing an ID at the liquor store are vastly different from doing it at Reddit or Twitter.
We should regulate "engagement" somehow, as an addictive substance, but putting the onus on social media companies to verify age is giving them —and Governments, and political lobbyists— access to information to track and control that they can only dream of.
big_cock_lach@reddit
There’s plenty we can do?
Certain content should be banned from social media, and these things need to be enforced. Namely, if a movie was unable to get a “PG” or lower rating if the post/video was in it, it should be banned. This would exclude all content including violence, substance misuse, and sexual content. Any misinformation or disinformation, particularly regarding financial advice, legal advice, healthcare advice, and politics should also be banned. Any sort of radicalisation or content heavily associated with declining mental health or addictive behaviour should also be banned. These are the most harmful sort of contents that should be far more heavily regulated, and while they might be virtually impossible to completely remove, companies should be able to show that they’re taking appropriate actions around removing this content.
Other regulations would be targeting the addictive nature of social media. Namely, there should be way to prevent doom scrolling, if someone has been identified as doing so, they should have system in place to break this cycle. If that doesn’t work, a more aggressive policy would be to ban short form content like the other person suggested. Likewise with identifying and banning bots, or people being employed in poorer countries to act like bots.
Crucially, these are all regulations that social media companies can reasonably comply with. They don’t want to since it’d hurt their bottom line, but these laws would massively benefit society.
CatzioPawditore@reddit
I think a ban on short form content and infinite scroll would already benefit most people drastically..
sailorbrendan@reddit
Right? like.... we are talking about kids, but it's not like the infinite scroll and algorithmic feed don't also very visibly damage adults.
It doesn't benefit anyone other than Zuc, and I don't see a lot of good in helping him out
BufferUnderpants@reddit
Yes, also the ideal would be them no longer generating engagement with negative emotions, but that'd be impossible to enforce. Scroll would be a good start.
AustinYQM@reddit
Because we as a society take steps to prevent children from harming themselves. Your argument is no different than someone saying "why having a drinking? Just parent your kids!"
pimmen89@reddit
Because kids don’t choose their parents and shouldn’t suffer just because they were born to shitty parents who can’t or won’t protect them. You’re not allowed as a parent to give alcohol or tobacco to your child either.
bhmnscmm@reddit
Well, for one, I can parent my kid. I can't do shit to Mark Zuckerberg.
marshmallowrocks@reddit
I know you cant but decent governments can. They can and should regulate them.
Visual-Squirrel3629@reddit
'Decent governments'. Which country has this government?
big_cock_lach@reddit
Pretty much all wealthy liberal democracies are decent governments. People might disagree and dislike the individuals and/or parties in charge, and they’re far from perfect, but overall they all still do a pretty decent job.
The problem is that the US has been brainwashed into thinking they fit into this category when they don’t, so they immediately write off everyone else as being just as bad as them. Almost all of Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan all have good governments. It doesn’t make them immune from global or even domestic economic pressures, which we can see all of them facing, but that doesn’t suddenly mean they’re bad either. No one is immune from these things, and no matter how good a government is, they’re unavoidable.
marshmallowrocks@reddit
You may be surprised that the EU on occasion brings out regulations that help and/or benefit the european population. I can almost bet with my life that you won't find any sickening material that I have mentioned, on wechat. If there is, then im sure the outcome will most likely end up in somebody getting the death sentence.
BendicantMias@reddit (OP)
The EU was just embarrassed - https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-brussels-launched-age-checking-app-hackers-say-took-them-2-minutes-break-it/
marshmallowrocks@reddit
Why are you posting your post in a comment? Why else do you think i am here commenting!?
MuscleStruts@reddit
We have the tools, we just need to enforce them again. Sherman Anti-Trust Act, unions, labor militancy. Get involved in politics. This is not a new problem, and it's one with a solution that our grandparent's grandparents figured out.
fedexyourheadinabox@reddit
Yeah that pretty much exposes how performative and backward this nanny state horseshit is.
OstentatiousSock@reddit
Dumb phones. That’s the solution. Teens get dumb phones. No internet and apps.
aykcak@reddit
As a parent, I just don't want companies to abuse and target children but I still want my child to have a phone.
Is that really too much to ask? Don't show porn ads to my kid on YouTube?
enwongeegeefor@reddit
It's hard for parents to tell kids to stay away from facebook and tiktok when they're doomscrolling it themselves all day....
Spaceseeds@reddit
Uhh, no, it doesn't. That's called fucking tyranny. No one is telling my children when they are or aren't allowed to use things and how safe they should be except me
NotMythicWaffle@reddit
That's literally what I am saying, parents should be the ones who enforce the rules on the kids and the issue shouldn't have gotten like this where the government feels the need to step in and do it for them and ruin everything for everyone else
processedwhaleoils@reddit
Seriously, parents really are fucking stupid and lazy as a majority. It's so depressing to see.
Is there still a comment word limit? Words words words words words.
MrCockingFinally@reddit
Parents create the problem by sitting toddlers in front of an iPad and giving tweens iPhones.
Complain government not doing their job for them.
Feature phones are cheap and available. Why does a teen need a smartphone.
PantsMicGee@reddit
Yeah. So learn tech. Its not fucking hard.
Dry-Season-522@reddit
It's not that. They're telling their kids "gosh it's so wrong they want to take your social media" then going to their elected representatives and saying "Do it so I don't have to tell my children no"
PantsMicGee@reddit
Ha. Yeah that too.
fedexyourheadinabox@reddit
You haven't been following this have you. It's got nothing to do with that, aside from being horribly designed.
PantsMicGee@reddit
Read what I commented to. Itd literally fucking quoted.
"Once your child has a phone, unless you are tech savvy and on top of all the parental controls, it's difficult to know everything they are doing."
Fortunafors@reddit
People saying "it's up to parents giving them phones" are out of this world or what? They're here on Reddit, if you don't give them phones, they will still be using a computer somehow, you all forget that phones are just a pocket PC.
That mentality of trying to ban everything without knowing if it benefits or doesn't will doom every country.
Maybe everyone should just talk to their children, I guess everyone is just too busy working.
Kierenshep@reddit
Once you give your child a device for which you have no training or education on, unless you spend the time to learn how to operate the device you're giving your child, then it's difficult to know what your child is doing!
All I'm hearing is that the parents don't want to be responsible for their children, or for learning enough to actually be responsible for their children.
At the very worst you can give your kid a dumb phone that can call for emergencies, but you're probably relegating them to social pariah status at that point.
randomvandal@reddit
With all of the resources and information available on the Internet, if a parent can't figure out how to restrict access on a phone, maybe they aren't responsible enough to let their kid have a phone in the first place.
And parents with kids this age grew up in an era of the technology of the Internet was evolving and becoming widespread. Ignorance and incompetence is not an excuse like it is for the boomer generation.
N4gual@reddit
I mean, i use Google Family Link and MS Family Safety on my kids phone. Absolutely zero problems with unwanted sites/apps so far
guntherpea@reddit
This stuff has been a parent problem from the beginning. I absolutely think the social media companies need to be regulated regarding data collection and use, about their algorithms and mental health, and so on. But when it comes to the actual question of should my kids have access and to what degree, millions of parents have just handed their kids a phone or tablet and that's it - they don't learn about parental controls available from Apple (iOS and macOS), Google (Android and Chrome/OS), or Microsoft (Windows) where there are actually great and incredibly helpful tools to limit time spent, refuse access to app stores it certain apps, block or allow websites, etc. Then, governments take advantage of that ignorance combined with political ignorance and push "think of the children" laws that are blatant power grabs.
This, "unless you're on top of all the parental controls," takes one day for the aforementioned "tech savvy" and maybe a weekend for those that aren't if they just sit down and sort it out. If you can log into your email, you can set up the parental controls.
leahcar83@reddit
If social media bans like this become more commonplace it will lead to social media companies dropping parental controls as they're seen as no longer needed. Children will be able to circumvent bans and will then be accessing social media without age appropriate regulation. If parents want kids to have access to more extreme and more worrying content, and be less open to speaking up about something concerning then this is the way to go.
We don't need legislation restricting access, we don't even really need parents to become more tech savvy. We need parents to work on their relationship with their children and create an environment where those children can be open and honest about things they're seeing online without fear of embarrassment or punishment.
The government were all for showing Adolescence in schools but seemed to miss the entire point of it. Ultimately it wasn't a cautionary tale about the manosphere, it was about the adults in a child's life not taking an interest in them.
The kid in the show could've been a misogynist, a radical religious nut, a hard-line climate activist, a paedophile hunter vigilante etc, it doesn't matter the point is that the parents had no idea who their son was because they'd never bothered to find out.
If parents are worried about what their kids are seeing online they need to talk to their kids, ignoring them and directly appealing to try government is just further showing those children that their parents really aren't interested in what they think or have to say.
nachohk@reddit
Excuse you? What did you just say to me? You think I don't take an interest? You little ingrate. I ought to smack you for being so insubordinate. You have no appreciation for everything I do for you. Go leave Mommy alone while she watches TikTok.
leahcar83@reddit
This is exactly what I mean. Little Ingrate is my brother, I'm Financial Drain.
Dorkzilla_ftw@reddit
No shit sherlock. It was always for parents to enforce you dumb stupid sack of shit that sacrificed rights for someone else to do your job
Macho_Mans_Ghost@reddit
Well, no shit. If we really want to keep kids off SM, we need to not give them decides with access. Phone manufacturers could make phones specifically without access to those things and that would be a great step.
MuscleStruts@reddit
They still sell "dumb" phones. If I ever have a child, that phone is what they'll have until they're 16, and then they'll get a smart phone on a probationary basis until they graduate high school.
From_Deep_Space@reddit
GOOD. Just give them dumb phones. Problem solved.
JynFlyn@reddit
clears throat in an exaggerated manner
takes a wide stance planting feet firmly
cups hands in front of mouth
IF YOU DON’T WANR YOUR KIDS ON SOCIAL MEDIA!!!
DON’T GIVE THEM A SOCIAL MEDIA MACHINE TO HAVE ON THEM AT ALL TIMES!!!
Pans_Labradoodle@reddit
My brother did this with my niece, bought her the dumbest phone he could find and thought he won.
She ended up using a friend to sell old toys on Facebook Marketplace and bought a used phone. The dumb-phone was smart enough to provide a hotspot, which is what she used to connect her smartphone and how eventually found the smart phone.
Some kids will find a way to get what they want, especially when it comes to feeding an addiction like social media. Unfortunately some parents just give up and expect the State to parent their kid for them.
Curiouso_Giorgio@reddit
I'm laughing at all the replies from people who most likely do not have children saying 'Why don't parents simply do XYZ? Are they stupid?'
gpike_@reddit
IKR this comment section is full of people I hope never have kids for the theoretical kids' sakes.
JynFlyn@reddit
That’s pretty funny actually. I don’t think most kids would be that enterprising though.
Curiouso_Giorgio@reddit
Do you have kids?
alex2800@reddit
If I was cracking my psp through obscure online forums at a time where this info was provided by antisocial college kids on some obscure forums and IRC channels I'm sure any modern kid can do it with half a brain and Gemini.
Instead of ineffectively banning social media for kids they should be regulated for everyone.
UncleJChrist@reddit
100%. The onus should be placed on the platform not individuals. I promise you they collect enough information and have enough expertise to provide far safer environments than they currently do
UncleJChrist@reddit
They definitely would be. I'm pretty sure most kids would come to that conclusion in the first week.
TearOpenTheVault@reddit
Kids are incredibly enterprising. They have zero money, tons of time and not enough self-control to stop them from doing stupid shit.
Pans_Labradoodle@reddit
What’s funny is that we’ve had this happen twice, with two kids totally isolated with no influence on the other.
My nephew on my wife’s side developed a binge eating disorder when he was old enough to be home alone after school, he’d ended up gaining a ton of weight. They locked up anything unhealthy in the pantry and garage fridge so he started selling his legos on marketplace and bought junk food from the gas station down the road.
Kids are little crackheads when it comes to any addiction and modern convenience gives them the means to feed it themselves.
MeringueVisual759@reddit
Damn all I had to do when I was a kid was find an unblocked website with popup ads to jailbreak myself out of AOL Kids. That's building character for real lmao
gut536@reddit
At that point, she's earned it.
Curiouso_Giorgio@reddit
They can get them other ways.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
The problem is that means your kid can't socialize with other kids, which is damaging to their mental health and can be considered abuse.
"Oh, but they can just hang out in real life like they used to!"
No, they can't. Despite no laws being passed on the matter, a coalition of Karens, Cops, and Activist Judges have made it defacto illegal for kids to be out in public unsupervised.
Think of the last time you saw a bunch of 12 year olds just walking down the street alone?
ImNotABotScoutsHonor@reddit
I guess this is a problem with where you live, but this is a daily occurrence for me.
Skill issue, I guess.
tylerderped@reddit
My city passed a “temporary” 9pm curfew for minors, then proceeded to extend it to adults.
Wanderhoden@reddit
It’s an America problem, as far as I know & have experienced (living there until recently).
In Germany, feral kids are scooting or biking around after school, often just showing up at their friends‘ houses impromptu. My 8 year old does that with his best friend. That would never happen where we used to live in the States.
nanoman92@reddit
Today
BrodaReloaded@reddit
It was like today, yesterday and the day before as well
danieldhdds@reddit
clears throat in an exaggerated manner
takes a wide stance planting feet firmly
cups hands in front of mouth
SOMETIMES THEY CAN ACCESS IN SCHOOL OR SOMEOTHER PLACE TOO
OstentatiousSock@reddit
Also, some schools flat out give tablets to the kids.
gpike_@reddit
Way too many people in these comments are coming inches from admitting they're in favor of child abuse. Kids are people, not property, not pets, not little copies of you that are going to turn out exactly like you if they have the "same" kind of experiences in life, not little angels that must be kept "pure" from all traces of The World's(tm) influence. "If it was good enough for me, it's good enough for my kids" is abusive boomer talk when it comes to how you should treat your kids.
Do better than your parents but don't overcorrect too far in the other direction. And don't homeschool unless the kid's life depends on it.
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
Skill issue, literally just get them a dumbphone or stop paying the phone bill if you see them disobeying. Wittle baby needs a government nanny 🥺
Even just do random checks if you catch them lying.
You are a bad parent if your kid manages to get around something like this and you cry to the state instead of asseting consequences.
SamuelClemmens@reddit
Its like alcohol right? The state doesn't need to make it illegal for kids to drink, just have parents not give their kids alcohol and then the kids will never drink until they are adults.
Same with drugs, gambling, and the like.
Parents just need to say no, there is no need to ban companies from selling those things to kids.
ChypRiotE@reddit
This has to be sarcasm, kids always find ways to drink or do drugs before they are of legal age and despite their parents "saying no"
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
I think it should be illegal for kids at least under 14 to have smartphones in the first place due to how damaging they are to developing brains. I don't care if they're online, but they should have to go to a desktop for that.
Social media is not the most harmful thing a child can have on their phone. Children should not be entertained 24/7, they should not be getting babysat by their phones, they should not be on social media, they should not have a distraction machine at school, they should not have a camera in every locker room all the time, there are literally no upsides to them having smartphones, only downsides.
Social media bans are a dumbass half measure and I'm never giving my goddamn id to a social media company, when accepted practice for my entire life was lying about everything online to stay safe.
I probably should have made this point in the original comment, since in hindsight, my point is very different with this context.
bobthecookie@reddit
Slightly playing devil's advocate, smartphones can be important tools for disability accommodation. A lot of insulin pumps and glucose monitors now sync specifically with smartphones. Similarly, smartphones can help those with issues speaking to still be able to communicate.
I'm not saying this to say that all kids should always have smartphones, just that we need to think more carefully than "No magic rectangles for youngins."
Serena_Hellborn@reddit
the ipod touch used to exist.
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
There's always exceptions, I'm just a redditor who watched some kindergarteners wander home, nose deep in youtube shorts recently. I won't bring the most nuanced take all the time, or even most of the time. Not because i don't have one, juet because I'm hella lazy.
I also think life should be more enriching for kids outside the web, too. And i absolutely think you're a bad parent if you're on your phone in front of your kid constantly. This was my parents, and it really sucked.
-Dakia@reddit
Definite skill issue. Learning to control your home networks is not hard. There are thousands of videos out there.
Our basics are:
Controlling content via the iOS family controls for content app restrictions
Different Ubiquiti networks for adults and kids with time, location, specific website and content controls. Seriously not hard people. There are thousands of videos on YT out there on content control.
Physical monitoring. Random phone inspections are key. If there are deleted messages, they lose the device. We periodically go in and delete a spam message. If it isn't in the recently deleted, we know they are deleting and clearing that list.
It's three layers. You could even not have the network level control if you up your game on the ecosystem and physical controls. All it takes is minor effort.
ImpossibleDragonfly@reddit
A dumb phone won't be enough. Social media is accessible on any computer connected to the internet.
unhappyrelationsh1p@reddit
Scrolling social media on the computer is way more inconvenient and less rewarding conpared to things like video games at least, so there's that.
You can also put parental controls on computers too
mira_poix@reddit
Everyone forgets about beepers. They worked just fine
SleepyTonia@reddit
As it should be. You want your kids to be parented, do it yourself. If you can't trust your kids to not install apps they shouldn't, get them a damn flip phone. They'll still be able to call in emergencies and it'll be cheaper. "But what if they get an account on some computer?" Ground them. Force them to delete the account. Be a damn parent.
presidentiallogin@reddit
Good. This shows that the kids can handle it and the government can back out of this level of control. Government overreaching is bad. These laws are bad.
2fafailedme@reddit
Yesss! I love letting the state police the internet access of all it's citizens in return for helping useless lazy parents take charge of their children!
spyro86@reddit
You have three options.
Option 1 parent them and limit their phone time
Option 2 get them a desktop computer. They will still have access to but it is less convenient which will result in them being on it less
Option 3 is to Take away their phone privileges outside of the living room. You'll still see them but they'll be zoned out in the living room where you can interact with them
MartyrOfDespair@reddit
Sadly they’ll go with Option 4: rubber stamp a fascist regime because they don’t want to take responsibility for their sex trophy
dasunt@reddit
Yup, but the lack of parenting means that the kids will still get on social media, but society will still lose freedom.
So it's a lose-lose for kids and adults, but a win for Meta and Alphabet who can point to the regulation as a way to avoid liability.
fiction8@reddit
If it's up to parents to enforce the ban then society isn't losing freedom.
AgitatedMagpie@reddit
This legislation is actually written that is is the social media platform that has to stop kids accessing social media, not the parents.
dasunt@reddit
Thanks for the correction!
AgitatedMagpie@reddit
Glad to be of assistance.
tylerderped@reddit
The desktop computer option is very interesting and actually can solve the declining technical literacy, too.
I think this is a big reason why my generation managed to largely avoid the mental damage that social media has done. For millennials, social media was as much a place you went to (first, through a computer, but then through apps on portable devices) as any other, and there was healthy competition with a lot of “stores” (social networks) so to speak. You used to check your facebook, check your email, check your texts, etc.
Now social media is just life. Always there, always around in some form, and there’s only 1 or 2 companies now. Nothing is checked anymore because information is available instantly.
petertompolicy@reddit
The ban was always absolutely stupid.
Of course the social media companies lobbied for that piece of shit.
Let's force everyone to give them more data instead of regulating algorithms!
El-Maximo-Bango@reddit
This is just propaganda. No one wanted this and all over this sub everyone was saying leave it up to the parents to parent their kids.
Now all of a sudden we are dissapointed this isn't working and we can't parent our kids? Come on.
ListenToTheWindBloom@reddit
I really wish we had stopped tech in the early 90s or so. It was so much more fun back then too, big clicky clacky buttons and satisfying metal switches, burbling machines printing readings out like a shopping receipt…
OkMemory9587@reddit
It's cause parents should also ban social media for themselves maybe at one point we can all agree that smartphones and social media were just too much for society to handle and should just be banned like any form of toxic material.
Thegodsbegracious@reddit
I would rather say that it would be better if we limit the internet and social media to smart TVs and desktop computers like it was in the 1990s...
Wanderhoden@reddit
And bring back the dial up modem and Lycos. Make Internet Inconveniant Again!
Sprintzer@reddit
If they want to do it, simply buy them a dumb phone to bring outside of the house and at home get them a regular computer (and actually monitor what they are doing)
Tired8281@reddit
Having successfully abdicated their own parental responsibilities, these people are now begging the state to step in and perform those very duties on their behalf. It is a staggering display of immense laziness and unearned entitlement—expecting a federal bureaucracy to police their dinner tables simply because they find the actual work of raising their own children to be an inconvenient distraction from their own screens.
Xincmars@reddit
Imo parents should take some more responsibility and control their kids’ screentime/access. Sure it’s not ideal but relying on the govt or any other entity not in your home is being irresponsible.
I’m not a parent but it feels like a lot of pushing the buck.
Goeegoanna@reddit
How about ban kids getting smart phones until 16 and let everyone else be an adult, responsible for their own existence and parents responsible for their own kids?
citruspickles@reddit
People don't want that because they feel like they're being told how to parent which is insane considering there are a large number of age restriction laws already in place that they never complain about.
Reagalan@reddit
Yeah no.
You ban you kids from something without a convincing reason for it, they will just want it more. You get authoritarian to enforce said ban, your kids will lose respect for you. They'll see you as old, out-of-touch, bull-headed, perhaps even stupid; untrustworthy at minimum. They'll perceive you as having had your fun before selfishly pulled up the ladder under them, and will make all possible efforts to circumvent what they deem an arbitrary suppression of freedom.
This was never going to work, and it was never a good idea.
New Zealand repealed their dynamic-age smoking ban some months ago. I foresee this ban ending the same way.
frequently_grumpy@reddit
Parents mad that they have to parent.
Taking the fucking phones off them if you’re that bothered.
Oh you don’t want them to see you as the bad guy? Diddums. If your kids don’t hate you some of the time then you’re not being a very good parent.
BendicantMias@reddit (OP)
Not disagreeing or anything, but ... your name checks out lol. :P
lesbox01@reddit
Hey I got an idea, don't give your under 16s a fucking phone. I learned the hard way with my eldest, and the bottom 4 get monitored tv, no YouTube unless I'm there, no Facebook,snap chat, twitter, reddit etc. ill drip feed them apps very slowly as they age up and show them the harms each can cause with an open dialogues. Getting thrown onto the internet raw is nuts.
The_Kaizz@reddit
I've had several students whose parents "ban" them from social media. You know what they do? They get on their friends phone, login, and have their experience. Unfortunately, you need to be really tech savvy, and understand how to access their devices on a whim to really control it, and even then, it's not full proof. I honestly don't believe parents have that all encompassing ability yet.
Polibiux@reddit
Maybe they could have a one on one talk with their kids about what they look at online and how to practice internet safety. But no, enforcing an inefficient social media ban is much easier.
_st_sebastian_@reddit
The orphan-crushing machine is one of society's greatest menaces, so we've banned orphans under the age of 16 from wandering into the machines. If they break the law then they'd better watch out!