The "Motorcycle-ification" of ebikes.
Posted by Ok_Motor4106@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 330 comments
I feel like the market is being flooded with "ebikes" that are just stealth motorcycles. to me, a real ebike should be a bicycle first:
1.It must have functional pedals
2.The speed shouldn't rival a moped
3.The design should look like a bike, not a dirt bike or a cafe racer
4.Adding electric assist should enhance the cycling experience, not replace it
Some of these heavy, high-speed builds feel dangerous and are giving our community a bad name. What happened to the "bike" in ebike?
(Just my personal opniion)
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Honestly, this is nothing new, just higher performance. Mopeds became a thing because I'm Europe, pedal assist motorized bikes could be ridden at age 14 without a license. So they made bikes with small engines and pedals you used to start the engine. I'm theory, you could pedal it. So it met the requirements. It's the same old story.
maximumpynk@reddit
Many of these bikes can’t be pedaled without power. They’re extremely heavy, and because the geometry is basically a motorcycle, pedaling them is awkward to the point of being unusable.
Hotdammzilla3000@reddit
No, they can be pedaled, I know, because I have. We recently purchased two class 3 ebikes for the wife and myself , they do not look like motorcycles, only a few might, they look, well, city bikes (walk through) and mountain bikes ( leg over ) on average, top speed about 28- 35 mph, some a little higher. The popular choice here where I'm at is 20x4.0 and 26x 4.0 average weight about 40-100 pounds. In our community there are a lot of locals who ride them downtown, they're, to me, just a natural evolution of transportation.
In my opinion, government regulations, would set back or kill a thriving industry, I've yet to see blatant abuse, probably some, but, just folks saving gas money with an electric or traditional bike, and a whole lot of electric scooters.
Are they easy to ride? Yeahh, just have to get use to the weight and treat it like a bicycle and not a motorcycle, ebikes also give older people ( like myself 68.5) the opportunity to ride again, still have my old girl, 91 sub 24lbs. Mountain bike, wasn't able to ride her, the ebike helps my body to remember.
Just my opinion.
demon_twink_gockie@reddit
Yeah, that's not new. Same with my old 1969 Motobecane. Only difference is it has a two stroke gas motor and you had to pedal to start the engine. Thing was a bitch to pedal lol.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Honda 70cc is what I remember. I think they went from 50 to 90 cc
maximumpynk@reddit
Yeah, kids in my neighborhood have these new style ebikes. Ain't nobody trying to pedal a 70-130lb bike. These Chinese companies are making a killing with the loophole though. the meat crayons will be many.
OneLegAtaTimeTheory@reddit
I believe the solution will be to eventually ban “throttle” e-bikes from bike paths. Between the weight and speed they’re just too dangerous to the pedestrians also using those paths. Pedal assist bikes should be fine but throttles will need to stick to the roads.
SlashNreap@reddit
OP is giving me vibes like:
"SAFETY bicycle? This is a tragedy! My gearless Penny Farthing is the ONLY way a bicycle should be enjoyed!"
- Some salty purist, circa 1880.
Like, I've made countless posts to try and reason with them. Bicycles have always been a canvas for technology. Just like with motorcycles, this isn't the first time bicycles have been made into something else and this is certainly not the last time. It'll just be done in different ways.
And people, guess what. Just because your e-bike is legal does not mean it's safe. If your concerns are teens riding these things, they're just as capable of taking a regular, pedal bicycle or a 'legal' E-bike, and pulling wheelies on the sidewalk. That can also be fatal if someone gets hit in the head hard enough. And if they don't have access to Ebikes or surrons or whatever, well, they'll just take the next easily available things: gas dirtbikes.
As a side-note, people never take into account handicapped/the disabled when talking about Ebikes. Not everyone is able to pedal, and certain types of Ebikes might fit their needs better than any moped could.
The issue is not the machine it has never been. It's the people.
Sorry for the rant there but I've had it lol.
BoringBob84@reddit
That is a false equivalency. Standard bicycles do not have nearly the power, the weight, or the speed - all of which make electric cycles more dangerous among pedestrians.
Sometimes, I think that this disingenuous over-simplification of the situation is an intentional distraction. The problem is both. At some extreme, a large enough machine is dangerous among pedestrians, no matter how careful the operator is. And the point of regulating the capabilities of ebikes is to acknowledge that few governments have the resources for strict enforcement and to reduce the amount of damage that irresponsible can do with them, while not significantly affecting the utility of ebikes for responsible people.
Zealousideal-Ad4362@reddit
Feels like you just came here to argue. His points are not a false equivalency. You just dont like that it applies accurately l.
BoringBob84@reddit
This is basic physics. Kinetic energy dissipated in a collision is what causes the damage and injury, and kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the speed.
Claiming that a bicycle at 10 MPH is just as dangerous as a motorcycle at 30 MPH is absolutely a false equivalency. The motorcycle will do nine times the damage and injury in a collision at three times the speed of the bicycle.
Zealousideal-Ad4362@reddit
it isn't basic physics about chances to get in an accident... that is entirely dependant on mistakes made by people. they didn't see it was equal.. just not much more(which is true.. and 10mph is low.. usually around 12-13mph... which i assume you did to make your argument seem more salient.. because ebikes are still only 22-28mph... your argument is disengenous...
on car end more accidents happen below 40 than below.. your argument would argue the opposite. the amount of damage is an not a part of this arguemnt... or else all cars would be required to go 20mph so we reduce fatality risk
BoringBob84@reddit
The faster you are traveling, the less time you will have to react to a sudden obstacle and the more damage you will do when you collide with it.
Zealousideal-Ad4362@reddit
Statistics dont bare out the way you think. Less reaction time but as equal reaction overall because you are more prepared for something to go wrong.
BoringBob84@reddit
Assuming that people who are riding at a high rate of speed are paying more attention is a stretch.
SlashNreap@reddit
You're dying on some weird hill here. I never argued about physics? There is no arguing about physics. In a nutshell, I'm saying that reckless people will do reckless things, doesn't matter what vehicle you put them in, and that's the main issue.
You either missed my point entirely or you skimmed through it/nitpicked.
BoringBob84@reddit
I heard your point and I challenged it. I agree that we live among selfish assholes who will abuse every privilege that they can get for their own benefit at the expense of other people.
However, we can reduce that damage that they can do by restricting the capability of the tools that are available to them without significantly impeding responsible people.
A selfish asshole can do much more damage on an e-moto than on a standard bicycle.
SlashNreap@reddit
This is exactly what I was referring to, you challenged something I never really argued against in my original post, you make good points otherwise but to quote it again:
To clarify and pretty much add, in essence, I am saying that even the restricted, and relatively "slow" ebikes, have, are, and will continue to be misused by people that simply do not care about anything but themselves. Hence why I put emphasis on education rather than brute-forcing it through technical restrictions. They'll find a way to circumvent those either way, either by de-restricting ebikes, sourcing and changing to more powerful components, the list goes on. And if all fails, then they'll revert to something like gas dirt bikes.
When I say "Just as capable." I am not saying that a bicycle accident or collision with a pedestrian is somehow equivalent to that of a motorcycle, or a moped, etc. Because that's just false, of course more weight + velocity = more damage.
I'm talking about the potential for any damage at all that comes with reckless riding. It's a pillar issue even before the added problem of having weight + velocity.
You can of course do both managing reckless behavior and restricting mechanical capabilities, but the pillar issue will always lie in the user. A machine will not move until it has input, ultimately.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
The issue is not the machine it has never been. It's the people.
This is probably the most intelligent comment on this thread. Just like guns. The gun isn't the problem, it's the person using it.
If people would concentrate on educating people (including teens) and providing more infrastructure instead of trying to pass legislation that will in effect be useless and only clog up the court system, waste police resources, etc, I think all parties involved would come out a lot better.
boghall@reddit
Quote from lower down: “… this sub is filled with 14 year olds and, even worse, grown men who think like 14 year olds.“ Technological advance is blurring the categories, but there’s no intrinsic reason almost all vehicles mentioned here should not be permitted. The point is that the damage vehicles can do increases exponentially with weight and power, and are therefore justifiably subject to greater legal constraints (licensing, helmets, insurance, etc). An immature minority of illegal e-moto riders is spoiling it for everyone by evading these obviously sensible rules and riding like clowns, so those people and need to be ~~caught and thrown down a mineshaft ~~ policed appropriately.
BoringBob84@reddit
Sort of ... The damage that vehicles can do in a collision is proportional to the weight and also proportional to the square of the speed. Speed is the most important factor. A collision at 30 MPH will cause nine times the damage and injury as a collision at 10 MPH.
foghillgal@reddit
Speed is also linked to angular momentum, meaning those beasts are hard to change direction and need more space to do so. Center of mass is lower, so they have a tendency to plow into the object hit. And a rider will stop powering a bike when hiting while the 4000W motor will continue going through the object hit. The front of the bike is bigger so there is a bigger chance of a full blow instead of a glancing blow were all the power is transfered to you. Braking on those crap cheap bikes are inadequate to the speed they're riden so they can`t stop on time.
Finally, unlike a bike or even an assisted bike with a low speed, those vehicules are always at or above top speed between lights and thus much weave through bike lanes or even worse in and out of bike lanes into traffic or even going around on sidewalks !!!
Bike lanes are meant to promote mobility of kids, amateurs, woman , the elderly, and just a few of those fast behemotts is enough to keep all of these off the lane. So, one can preven hundreds from using a bike lane.
BoringBob84@reddit
Well said. This is counter-productive for micro-mobility. Non-motorized infrastructure must remain safe from motorized vehicles.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
Well now. This will totally ruin our game plans. How can we rack up points if we can't attack the targets?
Pedestrians = 10 points
Little kids = 25 points
Guy with a cane = 50 points
And the big prize: the old lady in the wheelchair = 100 points.
It's hard enough to hit em now. If you make more restrictions, we'll have to rent out airplanes to do the job.
Sorry guys. This thread needed some humour. Way too serious and not really going anywhere.
Look on the bright side: Here's your chance to get in your downvotes.
Hotdammzilla3000@reddit
The one with Kung Fu, that series was awesome!
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
How much for the little dog?
BoringBob84@reddit
That isn't humor. I recognize the poor attempt at an Appeal to Ridicule logical fallacy.
I understand that many people here are teenage boys and their weapon of choice is sarcasm.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
Expected response. I think you'll get over it.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
I hear ya. But I also know kids. And stronger legal constraints only leads to more kids riding illegally and hiding it better. I've seen this for years with dirt bikes. It's like a song on repeat. I still think education (of both parents and the kids) is an approach that will have a more lasting positive result. So many parents are clueless as to what their kids are doing. Maybe some information drummed into their brains will help them to become more aware.
thepartypantser@reddit
There is a reason why most countries don't allow anyone to have a gun without some constraints. Even in the US you can't buy automatic weapons easily without jumping through some major hoops.
It's far easier to create a dangerous situation with a 4000w throttled e-moto, vs a 350w e-bike without a cadence sensor.
I agree we should concentrate on educating people but there's also room for some fair-minded legislation.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Both can kill just as easily.
thepartypantser@reddit
The more weight of vehicle has, the faster it's going, the more energy it's going to put into an impact.
145 lb with a rider on it bike going 45 mph has got significantly more force, and will do significantly more damage in a collision, then a 60 lb bike going 28 mph.
That's simple physics.
One is much more likely to cause damage and death, especially if used irresponsibly.
SadisticPawz@reddit
You dont need alldat for a fatal head injury. A simple shove or run is enough. Not to mention that rider weight varies heavily as well so you can have a regular bicycle with the same energy.
thepartypantser@reddit
The likelihood of a fatal injury goes up with speed. A 300 lb person on a 60 lb e-bike going 28 mph has less energy than 100 lb person on 145 lb e-moto going 45 mph, and the 300 lb man has more time to react to a dangerous situation because of the slower speeds.
E-motos are more dangerous, and shouldn't be subject to the same regulations as Class 1 or class 2 e-bike.
SadisticPawz@reddit
If they dont have time to react then their speed is inappropriate for the road conditions. That is regardless of the vehicle type. Again, you can kill just as easily with or without a bike. You dont need speed to increase the likelihood. Compare 300lb person on a 60lb ebike going 45mph for 33.032 joules vs 100lb person on a 145lb emoto going 28mph for 8.607 joules. Bicycles have less incentive to slow down and pass at safe speeds than electric due to needing to invest actual physical effort
thepartypantser@reddit
Exactly.
A 300 lb person on a 60 lb e-bike is not likely to be going 45 mph. Because the power requirements and the motor requirements to get them up the speed require heavier bike.
But a 4,000 w emoto might be able to do that.
I'm not saying that machine is bad, I'm not saying the people that buy it are bad, I'm just saying that its a different class of machine, that has greater potential to cause damage to its rider and to pedestrians in other riders. There's a place for it, and if it's being ridden responsibly I don't care. But a lot of folks aren't riding those type of vehicles responsibly, So what is the solution to that problem?
I think you're going to have to draw line somewhere.
SadisticPawz@reddit
I guess I'm ok with 30mph speed limit on most paths. With avg speed being lower. Due to slowing for crosswalks, blind turns, peds etc
SlashNreap@reddit
People are misunderstanding something in my original comment. I'm not saying that bicycles are somehow equal in danger to motorcycles or Ebikes, at all.
I'm saying that the reckless people who *do* misuse Ebikes and motorcycles to begin with, will be prone to doing the same thing with a bicycle, a car, whatever vehicle they have between their hands, because they have no regards for other people's well being and safety. Of course the potential harm goes up exponentially with vehicle mass and velocity, I'm not arguing about physics.
Over here, in the nordics for example, we have countless people on heavy, bulky Ebikes that share the same bike paths as regular bicycles. Nobody bats an eye. Not because nobody cares, but because the people who do ride these bikes don't go out of their way to become a public danger. They're commuting, and most often they respect traffic laws.
Point being, it has to do with a behavioral problem. Just because a vehicle is big does not mean it cannot be handled safely and mindfully. The problem comes when you have someone who just doesn't care no matter what vehicle they are operating.
thepartypantser@reddit
I understood your original comment, and reckless people will behave recklessly. But you can put barriers up to keep reckless people from having as easy of access to behave recklessly.
If you have teenagers behaving recklessly on vehicles that can go 40-50 miles an hour, and no real training for them, or ways to enforce the laws that prevent them from behaving recklessly, then you get situations like this.
Requiring at time of sale Licensing, registration and insurance of vehicles that go significantly over 30 mph could be a way to stop that.
SlashNreap@reddit
Sorry for the long drawn out discussion, I agree with what you just said here, but to me, education goes a little beyond "Require a license, registration and insurance and some training.", when I talk about restrictions, it's more about technological restrictions I'm against rather than administrative ones (licenses and such, I'm all for that).
It starts way early. I'll take an example; in my home country, France, as a kid, I had to go with my school to learn how to ride a bicycle safely, which included learning traffic laws. Even got two little certificates (ASSR1 & ASSR2),
And even better, I now live in the nordics, and here kids here learn this, but tenfold because a good chunk of them commute on their own to school (Where I'm from, it's slightly similar to America - You either walk, take the bus, or mom & pop take you to school).
Here they learn this responsibility as soon as they're able to hop on a bicycle. This system is genuinely great. But then again, there is almost a complete set of infrastructure specifically for bicycles and such whereas in other countries it might differ, etc.
That's what I'm talking about, when I talk about education. I'm primarily a motorcyclist, and to me safety is pretty damn important, so, I'm all for requiring licenses to operate vehicles capable of doing certain speeds, but, people have to have an inherent want to take responsibility early on, in order to even go through with these licenses. What I'm arguing against is bruteforcing it through tech without a second thought for education or proper legislation follow-ups.
thepartypantser@reddit
I am all for that in the states. But there are hurdles to it. Each state has its own regulations and education systems, so to implement a widespread bicycle training programs like what France or Nordic countries have, while possible, are not likely.
I have ridden motorcycles, for 30 years. Everything from 50cc scooters to 1800 cc touring bikes, and many types in between including an 3000 watt E-moto.
Some of those bikes were no larger than an e-moto, but I don't think they should be ridden in a bike lane or bike trail.
SlashNreap@reddit
That's reasonable for sure.
Gourdon_Gekko@reddit
Ya but the point of a gun is to kill people. Not transporation. Bad analogy.
thepartypantser@reddit
I did not make the original analogy.
But both can be used irresponsibly.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
I'll refrain from further gun comments. I probably should not have used that as an analogy. It's way more complicated than ebikes.
And I'll go as far as to agree with fair-minded legislation. However that fair-mindedness is often hard to achieve.
Orionsbelt@reddit
I think it was fine, a large ameerican style truck in a crowd is more dangerous than a man with a rifle, its just a very binary discussion in most us politics.
lee1026@reddit
You can't govern the people instead of the machines without schemes like licensing and plates. So that if nothing else, you can take them away from the people who consistently screw up.
BoringBob84@reddit
Excellent point! The same people who advocate for enforcement of behavior instead of limits on the capability of ebikes also seem to oppose attempts to enforce that behavior (e.g., arrest, inspection, confiscation, driver's license, vehicle registration).
inline-online@reddit
what a stupid ass comment lol
ESPECIALLY the gun comment, you're such a low IQ chud
lee1026@reddit
There is a difference between a child's first bicycle with training wheels and the stuff at motoGP. I hope we can all agree on that.
And anywhere you want to actually draw a line, I can easily find you two things that almost the same, but on two different sides of the line.
It's the nature of the thing; there is a lot of very different stuff that all fall into a general category of bikes, and they deserve to be treated differently. Much of this is governed by laws, and laws will be forced to draw lines that may or may not make any sense.
SlashNreap@reddit
Yes, we can agree on that. But, reassure me, please. When you refer to "Balance bike" vs "MotoGP" and drawing a comparison, you're not talking about those "Engwe M20" style E-bikes right? Because, a thick frame, wheels and 45km/h is not going to get you motorcycle performance. It's a moped at best.
And sure, I'll concede, maybe these big bulky Ebikes do belong on the road, if their riders can't behave on bike paths, provided they can legally be there somehow. But they do not compete in any manner with actual, purpose-built motorcycles. You'd have to look at "Zero motorcycles" for that in terms of actual electric motorcycles. Surrons, for example, are lightweight electric dirt-bikes. Purposefully made for off-roading purposes.
Ebikes have a lot in common with motorcycles but they will ultimately take a different paths when it comes to legislations, technology, et cetera. It's up to people to adapt to that, and for whoever pulls the string to play their cards right. But, that's for an ideal world. I'm putting my money on that Ebikes will see a wider ban or be boiled down to "motorcycles" for convenience.
Over here, the bulky Ebikes/Escooters are tolerated on bike paths because it's a high-trust society. They trust that people aren't going to be a nuisance and pulling wheelies alongside families going out on a leisure cycle, so, most cops let it go unless they see trouble. Then again, a lot of these bulky ones are ridden by old people going for groceries. Different countries have very different contexts for these.
EvilPencil@reddit
I just saw one of those lighted road signs the other day that said:
“E-bikes have pedals, E-motos do not” 🤦♂️
SouthTexasCowboy@reddit
In the past, the two designs were based on necessity. Now, with electric technology, the forms don’t have to be as distinct. Laws are the only thing that can limit it now, not physical engineering
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Laws wont work on an nearly silent off road capable bike that can go 50. Well, laws would only work if you had tags on the vehicles to identify the owners. That means allowing them to be legal and then fining those who break the laws, not blanket banning them. Bans didnt work for dirt bikes and atvs, and wont work for ebikes either.
TrippyDaveXB1@reddit
tell that to the 14 year olds doing wheelies on 450s in the hood.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Are they tagged? No? My point stands then.
TrippyDaveXB1@reddit
and you missed my point LOL
no they aren't tagged and no its not stopping them, that was my point. laws aren't going to stop people from riding shit in the street. I rode on a suspended for years and never got caught lol.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Also my point, duh.
Correct, UNLESS you find a way to properly enforce them which means you have to CONVINCE riders to first get them tagged to enforce anything.
Perfect example of my point. Now if tags were super easy and cheap to get, you probably would have gotten them right? So would most others, meaning the few who didnt could be more easily caught. Point is that you have to use the carrot approach, not the stick. In your situation, there was more incentive to not tag your bike than there was to do so. Thats the point. So what would have convinced you to tag your bike? Cheap tags? Easy process? Or hundreds of dollars in fees and hours waiting in line to go through a bunch of bs red tape?
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Build transponders into the controllers.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
You just remove them or don't get them bc China isnt going to install them.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
China will happily build them right in if the government requires it for import.
And if a cop scans your bike and no transponder is on it, they can confiscate it.
Like towing a car with expired tags or no plates.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Thats very fascist of you. But you do you boo. The american way would be to just allow freedom but apparently thats just me.
Ok_Motor4106@reddit (OP)
Those were just my personal thoughts, thanks for the pointers.
criggie_@reddit
Just call them "eeeee motorbikes" which is what they are.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
this subs become a circle jerk
Soltea@reddit
Because all the illegal bikes is a huge problem.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
right and posting on reddit is going to fix that.
Soltea@reddit
It's not gonna hurt :)
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
lmao you’ve got me there bud
Soltea@reddit
Do you own illegal bike(s), bud?
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
i do indeed
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Obviously, no one deserves to get hit by a car, but I think you'll find that you get a reduced level of sympathy in most places when you admit to getting hurt in the context of doing something illegal. I'm not sure that's really a unique feature of this particular subreddit.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
lol it was a lot more than just a lack of sympathy my dude
AMC2Zero@reddit
This is why it's possible to still find the driver at fault even if the person they hit wasn't riding something street legal.
Otherwise there would be no punishment for running over emoto riders even if the driver was drunk.
Just because someone else is breaking the law doesn't mean that the road rules and obligation to avoid a crash don't apply.
And in cases of bike v car, it's nearly impossible to find the bike at fault if they were following most of the road laws and.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
yeah i didn’t get in any trouble. i picked up my bike the next day, had all my medical bills covered, and even got a little payout. the topic of the bike being illegal never even came up.
SadisticPawz@reddit
The people who ride them with no regard for others are the problem, not the bikes.
No_Leading_5257@reddit
seriously. can we just make it r/ebikegatekeeping at this point
Destroyer-Marauder@reddit
Yeah. I've been reading here for a while and noticed a fair share of karens and such. A lotta people arguing over basically nonsense. Still there's good info if you dig for it.
Revelati123@reddit
Like if it goes 50 on a throttle and has no pedals, no one is calling it an ebike lol.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
they definitely will, when we have nice weather i don’t ask my coworker if he rode his motorcycle in today. i ask did you take the bike?
hezuschristos@reddit
Yep, but you mean motorcycle, you’re not trying to argue that his motorcycle is actually a bicycle. Many on this sub will spend their time arguing that electric motorcycles are “just bikes” and therefore shouldn’t be regulated.
I’m certainly making an assumption, but I don’t think you are trying to say your coworker has no license or insurance and took his motorcycle down the sidewalk and shared walking path to work.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
sure but the same would apply to e motos, if i said bike and someone corrected me i would just say yeah you know what i mean. it’s not that deep. i really don’t think people would argue that a surron is an ebike vs an e moto, more so that e bike is a blanket term.
i really don’t see anyone arguing against regulations. just people arguing for them. i ride an illegal bike and i honestly don’t care about regulations, go ahead make them. i don’t even ride it anywhere but the street but yall will treat me as if i pop wheelies at 40mph on a walking path lmao
Destroyer-Marauder@reddit
Yeah man. They can make all the regulations they want and kids are still gonna ride whatever they want. I think really all the regulations do is make the kids get more sneaky about riding.
It's been the same with dirt bikes since way back. Really nothin different.
TrippyDaveXB1@reddit
careful, you might get downvoted.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
believe me i’m used to it around here lmao
Destroyer-Marauder@reddit
Man, you should see the subreddits for some of the video games if you think this place is bad. Total and complete chaos. But it's full of pre-teen kids who think their shit don't stink too.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
oh trust me man i’m aware, i play arc raiders lmfao
hezuschristos@reddit
People call that an ebike almost daily on this sub.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Beats a cluster fuck...
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
i’d prefer the cluster fuck tbh
masssy@reddit
I'll be back tomorrow for the same thing posted by someone again.
There are bicycles. There are mopeds. There are motorcycles. All of which can be electric.
Just deal with it.
MrAFMB@reddit
eBikes. eMopeds. eMotorcycle.
Glad I could clear that up for you, it's really not ambiguous at all.
If everyone keeps pretending this is too complicated the law will deal with all of them the same, and that leads to regulations like this. Having different classes and names to differentiate is a good thing, and trying to circumvent regulations will lead to worse regulations for everyone. Just be sensible and don't ride your eMopeds through pedestrian streets, and keep the eMotorcycles out of the bike lane, it's pretty clearly meant that way.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean, people call their Harley Davisons or their Ducati a ‘bike’…
masssy@reddit
Exactly my point. People don't complain about Ducati bikes on the bicycling subreddit, do they? Because it's an obvious difference and everyone knows it yet some people seem to think it's very very very important to point it out every single chance they get.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
The problem is, people see the 500w 20mph e-bike that happens to look like a dirt bike, and in their mind it becomes an electric powered crotch rocket.
masssy@reddit
Then the problem is the people.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Yeah… In so may areas of life… yet over and over again, the focus goes to the tool, not the tools using it…
BoringBob84@reddit
We should just let everyone have personal nuclear weapons and then make it illegal to blow up a city. The weapon isn't the problem. It is the people /sarcasm
Yes, that is a ridiculous example, but I think it illustrates the point that regulating the tools is effective at limiting the damage that irresponsible people can do while minimally affecting the utility of the tools for responsible people.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
If you have the money for nuclear weapons, you probably live in the same income bracket as someone like Elon Musk… do you really think he’s have all that much trouble getting a power plant going? Or perhaps get into defence contracting and develop some new nuclear warheads? Yes, it a ridiculous example, both because the vast majority of the world’s population couldn’t even potentially own these things. And the people with the resources and ambition can get their hands on such and all we can do is hold them accountable when they use that power inappropriately…
BoringBob84@reddit
Of course we can do more. We can make it as difficult as possible for irresponsible people to get dangerous things to limit the damage that they can do, especially in cases (like ebikes) where those restrictions do not significantly affect responsible people. 750 Watts and 20 MPH are very generous limits for a bicycle that is not intended to be a motorcycle.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
And how do you enforce this in a way that doesn’t affect reasonable people? Are you going to ban fixing your own bike at home so people don’t put bigger motors on? Ban the sale of controllers so people can’t fix some fried electronics outside of a bike shop? Ban stickers so people can’t reliable their parts to appear compliant? Or, perhaps, is it more reasonable to just punish people you catch riding inappropriately?
BoringBob84@reddit
Many state governments are working on this:
Restrictions on the sale of these parts.
Labeling requirements on all ebikes.
More enforcement and confiscation of illegal vehicles.
And in some cases, license and registration.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Seems to me, most of these regulations affect reasonable people… Label came of? Sucks to be you. Bike breaks? Better have money for the bike shop, because you can’t fix it yourself. A license to ride a bicycle? No, that’s not going to affect reasonable people at all…
BoringBob84@reddit
Labels don't just fall off. As an example, the state of California requires the label to be "permanently affixed."
https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=VEH§ionNum=312.5
Who said that? There is nothing wrong with repairing an ebike. Adding a 6,000 Watt motor is another matter.
No one said that. We are talking about ebikes. And I don't like this one either, but it is happening in more places. I agree that it will have an impact on responsible people, but it won't be a large impact.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
If you limit who can buy parts, you limit who can repair bikes.
BoringBob84@reddit
I didn't say anything about limiting who can buy parts.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
Sure you did…
BoringBob84@reddit
That is a feeble attempt to twist my words. Go away.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I didn’t twist anything. It’s literally exactly what you said…
BoringBob84@reddit
Regulating who can buy and sell is different than regulating what they can buy and sell. I think you know that and you are trying to twist my words because you have no argument.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
No, it’s not twisting anything…. You said what you said. Now, let’s limit ‘what’ you can buy. You’re still impacting everyone who wants to own and properly operate say…an actual electric motorcycle. Or an electro motocross bike. So, everyone is stuck with a 500 motor for all applications? Or is everyone stuck getting repairs from a certified shop who will put their license on the line to guarantee compliance?
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
How about the government owns all the bikes and you just rent it from them?
Modifications and uncertified repairs are destruction of the People's Property, comrade.
atypicalAtom@reddit
The person you are arguing with is a troll. Best not to feed them.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
He already has ICBMs. They just have satellites for a warhead.
MrAFMB@reddit
That's like the opposite of what happens O.o
Bikes going slower than they look are not really the issue, it's putting a 5kW motor into a bicycle frame with inadequate brakes and going 28mph on bike paths.
That's an eMoped or eMotorcycle (depending on state laws probably, straight up illegal EU) and calling them eBikes is bad for everyone (because the laws are gonna catch up).
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean… I can build nearly anything I want If I do it myself. It’s pretty common in the car world to modify things until it’s no longer street legal. They often get away with it too, because in reality, there’s not much way to eyeball it and determine it’s illegal without hauling it in for an inspection. What’s stopping you from taking your e-bike and adding a throttle? A bigger motor? A control with more capacity? Hell, even building up your own batteries with more capacity and voltage? Stickers are cheap. It can say whatever you want it to on the frame and housings…
But the point is, a lot of those bikes are very much legal, but if it has a fat tire, big headlight and a banana seat, Karen’s come out of the woodworks crying about E-motos on the bike path…
atypicalAtom@reddit
There are idiots everywhere.
MrAFMB@reddit
We shouldn't bow down to stupid...
It's perfectly fine in common parlance to mix the terms and even call "small" 100-300cc Motorcycles "Mopeds" to mess with your mates.
But when discussing eBike and eMoped and eMotorcycle classifications it seems we should be clear and align them with the US Class 1-3 and the EU Pedelec, S-Pedelec and eMotorcycle systems...
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean, nobody thinks their electric motocross bike is a cycling commuting rig. They might use them as such anyway… but they’re also using 2 stroke dirt bikes and go-carts in much the same way. What you’re insistence of strict terminology is promoting is everyone clutching their pearls and crying about every compliant e-bike that superficially looks motorcycle, scooter or dirt bike like based on cosmetic appearance.
MrAFMB@reddit
Then why not call them what they are?
Two wrong don't make a right, just because some people do things wrong or act stupid does not mean we should copy them, that's my point, we know better, we can be more specific and clear and teach them.
I have nowhere above made any ornamental or superficial parts required for my terminology....
I'm basically trying to say this: https://youtu.be/v_M3gMfK5B4?t=712
By ignoring and stretching the definitions of what eBikes, eMopeds and eMotorcycles are in spaces like these that Advocate for more eBikes, we have poisoned the well of public discourse and now the hammer is gonna come down on everyone. Because a lot of people are unwilling to get around to the fact that one way or another some 'ebikes' are eBicycles some 'eBikes' are eMopeds and some are eMotorcycles and they are not and never where the same.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
You’re right. Two wrongs don’t make a right. So when blanket bans don’t work in one area, why repeat it in another?
masssy@reddit
If we shouldn't bow down to stupid I suggest you stop preaching stupidity.
Pale_Cucumber_9692@reddit
BoringBob84@reddit
I have never argued that I should be able to ride an unregistered Harley-Davidson on a non-motorized path or on a public road as long as I am "careful" ... trust me bro, I will never abuse that power - wink, wink.
IM_The_Liquor@reddit
I mean… neither have I… however, one year I road my Fatboy every morning, about 3:30 am, down 100 yards or so of bike path to save myself about 3/4 miles to get to my work parking lot. I guess I’m evil 🤣
mmeiser@reddit
Here! here! Lets just keep pretending like the definition of ebike is not codified in actual laws. Its not ambiguous at all. There are classifications defined by law. People actually get fined. People are getting their e-motos confiscated and impounded. NJ and other states are passing ever more strict laws and ebikes are loosing opportunities and rights because some e-moto enthusiasts like to break the law.
DonnPT@reddit
The regulatory scheme doesn't accurately distinguish ebike from emoped, though. There is for example no genuine reason the motor should need to be operated by pedal controls; my recumbent isn't an emoto just because it lacks PAS. It doesn't serve any obvious purpose to classify cargo bikes that need motor+controller that can haul an extra load up a hill, as emotos.
UT07@reddit
What are your thoughts about the heavy-handed regulation that resulted from lazy takes like yours?
masssy@reddit
Where I live it's very clear. You have up to 250 watt being legally a bicycle/electric scooter. If throttle, max 20 km/h. If pedal assist, assist up to maximum 25 km/h. If more than 250 watt needs registration. For mopeds probably L1E certification, registration and insurance. If more power then it's a motorcycle.
Really not very hard at all.
Fair_Suspect8866@reddit
Globally ambiguous, not regionally.
head_face@reddit
It's either this or "nobody warned me how addictive it would be"
WilliamBontrager@reddit
People buy them bc faster is more fun. More power is more fun. Safety is not fun. People want lightweight, fast, torquey, two wheeled vehicles that are cheap and easy to use, on or off road, and arent covered by government red tape and fees. This is called demand. Ebikes have enabled the supply for this demand. People dont want a 20 mph 500 watt 30 lbs ebike, they want a 15 kw 60 lb 50 mph dirt bike that can fly and be ridden anywhere. This isnt allowed or scientifically possible yet so they settle for the closest thing which is an overpowered ebike. Why not let people have what they want and offer a cheap tag that identifies them to be fined when they ride belligerentaly? Dirt bikes weren't allowed on road bc of noise and bs red tape. Same thing is happening with ebikes but its fully just red tape and bc the auto industry wants all the money. Why not push for legalization of these and call them lightweight electric vehicles? 20 bucks to tag them and require a driver's license or a training course for those under 16? Then you ebike purists could have your niche, and everyone else could be happy zipping around too.
BoringBob84@reddit
I think that this question answers itself. Selfish people will harm others for their own benefit. And when they harm themselves, society pays their medical bills. Government has a responsibility to intervene when rights come into conflict.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
So by your logic, all cars should be banned too, since they are the leading cause of death and injury for those under 25?
BoringBob84@reddit
Look over there at those cars. Never mind the e-motos. We can only care about one thing at a time. /sarcasm
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Well one causes 10s of thousands of deaths per year, and the other causes 10s of deaths every 5 years. I just thought that you would focus on the more impactful safety issue since you're so concerned for your life.
Point is theres almost no real impact to anyone who isnt riding one. Its a million times more likely to be hit by a lightning bolt and killed than an ebike and killed. It just seems...odd that youd consider this a pressing safety issue to pedestrians and bikers. Where did the ebike touch you?
BoringBob84@reddit
I am capable of doing both.
That is a blatantly false point.
https://brooklyn.news12.com/advocates-rally-for-priscillas-law-calling-for-stricter-e-bike-regulations-in-nyc
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Thats one incident... I specifically said 10s, not 1.
BoringBob84@reddit
Right. There has only ever been 1 death from an irresponsible rider on an ebike. This is not a real problem at all. /sarcasm
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Theres been about a dozen over 5 years. Im not including ebikers that crashed into a tree or got run over by a car. Since we are talking of the danger to pedestrians and other bikers, im only considering the deaths of other pedestrians and bikers. That amounts to very very few deaths, even with all the irresponsible riders doing wheelies. If an irresponsible rider injures themselves by being stupid, thats on them, but it doesnt effect others to any real degree is my point.
BoringBob84@reddit
I realize that we don't have very good data on this. Ebike injuries are dramatically rising, but so are the numbers of ebikes, so it is difficult for me to form factual conclusions. And I am aware of no study that breaks down injury rates between the rider and someone else that the rider hit.
However, I can observe public sentiment, and that is what gets laws passed. We cannot ignore conflicts that are increasingly occurring, even when no one is injured, because they affect public opinion. And of course, we should care about injuries as well as deaths.
I think that electric micro-mobility is revolutionizing travel and I don't want it regulated out of existence because we tolerated abusers.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Its not that we dont have good data, its that injuries to pedestrians and other bikers are virtually nonexistent. 99.9% of the deaths are from bikes getting hit or hitting cars and the rider killed.
Well thats what will happen. Well it will regulate the fun out of it and that will kill off the industry.
Youre observing r/ebikes. When I ride everyone waves and asks how much/how fast/range and thats they want one as well. They yell "do a wheelie"! The vast minority are karens and they all seem to be on this thread karening hard.
BoringBob84@reddit
You already made that claim. Conspicuously absent is any substantiating evidence. It seems more like wishful thinking to me, especially considering all of the laws that are getting passed because of these injuries.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
You can look them up. Its almost entirely deaths to riders. Its very difficult to kill someone by hitting them with an ebike. Theres just not enough speed or mass involved to do so. Even motorcycles kill very few pedestrians for similar reasons. They simply arent dangerous to pedestrians, in terms of fatalities. Broken bones or other injuries, sure. Dangerous to the rider, sure. But claiming they are a danger to anyone besides the rider themselves is simply ridiculous.
BoringBob84@reddit
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Otherwise we can dismiss those claims as easily as you made them up.
You sound very confident in what you believe, and yet you haven't provided any evidence to substantiate it.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
So when I look it up and prove a handful of deaths from ebike collisions with pedestrians or other bikes, will that change your mind or will you delete the thread like you normally do?
BoringBob84@reddit
Maybe you think that is a clever ad hominem attack, but I am not deceived. I don't do that.
By falsely claiming that I "delete the thread," you apparently believe that you can erode my credibility and distract us from your lack of substantiation for your claims.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Again answer the question. If it wont change your mind and/or you will just delete the thread, then why bother? People can see for themselves and I save myself the effort. You can live in your own delusion. Why bother giving you information proving my point if you're still going to argue nonsensically?
BoringBob84@reddit
I don't play these games. If you have the evidence, show it. Otherwise, we can dismiss your claims as easily as you made them up.
If I had a penny for every egotist on the internet who called me, "stupid," "crazy," or "delusional" because I didn't accept their opinions as facts, then I would be a wealthy person.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
So no. Fair enough. Have a good night and have fun in your delusion. Im not wasting my time educating you.
BoringBob84@reddit
To educate me would require facts, which you seem to lack.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
You said the facts wouldnt change your opinion.
BoringBob84@reddit
Liar.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Would they?
IncaThink@reddit
Where are you getting this? For one thing, the last few years have seen massive changes in the ebike scene.
And according to this, 17 people were killed in NYC in 2024.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/apr/18/e-bike-crashes-safety-regulations
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Again, not killed IN a crash while riding an ebike. Killed BY BEING HIT by an ebike. I specify this bc thos is the only way it really impacts others...pun intended. You see the difference between an suv plowing into an ebike and an ebike plowing into a pedestrian or biker, right?
IncaThink@reddit
Please know I am asking with appreciation. You have apparently attached your real name to this and- if nothing else- you have your Reddit history open to public view, which is worthy of respect right there.
IncaThink@reddit
The rest of us need to be safe. Have you seen the streets lately?
You are correct with that last part, although I like age 18 better.
Dook23@reddit
i think an age of 16 and having a drivers license is a fair compromise over 18.
IncaThink@reddit
Which license?
Driving a car is a different skill than driving a motorcycle, and is licensed and tested differently.
Dook23@reddit
Agreed but for something light like a moped that does like maybe 40 mph, I would be fine with simply a drivers license being required. For something much faster and heavier like a true motorcycle, that's a different story.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Exactly. Thank you for not being ridiculous. Im even fine for those under 16 to ride legally, if they pass a safety course or something. If they act badly, they get it taken away.
Dook23@reddit
That would be acceptable to me as well. Heck I am not worried about age period if the child has been taught how to ride correctly and responsibly by an experienced adult. I've states this before elsewhere but i was riding gas powered dirt bikes by around age 8 but thats because i had an entire side of the family that raced and taught me how to ride. I was also under their supervision at all times until i was older.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Exactly. There are 12 year olds who are far better riders than most adult riders. Now when on the road it becomes a bit more of a liability and legal issue for those under 16, so its more complicated than skill. However we let kids under 16 ride bikes on the road so...
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Yea. Its full of 4000 lbs vehicles zipping around on cell phones. So safe. Lets look up the deaths caused by ebikes and the deaths caused by vehicles and compare, ok? Literally i can count the deaths caused by ebikes to anyone other than the rider over the last 5 years on two hands. Wheras the deaths by vehicles is 10s of thousands annually. You are safe. Chill.
IncaThink@reddit
Where I live the kids on fatbikes have thoroughly changed the biking landscape for the worse. It is not safe and I won't chill.
Also, where I live the speed limit in the entire city for those 4000 lbs vehicles has been lowered to 35 Kph.
Licensing and laws are not BS Red Tape, and 20 buck tags are not the answer.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Oh god help me that I might get hit and maimed by a 70 lbs ebike!!!! You might get a scratched knee! Chill. Everything you've mentioned, I would definitely call bs red tape. You obviously arent American where pickup trucks and suvs are easily 4000 lbs+ and go 70 mph+.
78Anonymous@reddit
your comment is contradictory .. said demand doesn't exist if your suggestion is enacted
the law exists, it just needs enforcement, which starts at the point of import, or should influence manufacturing to better identify non-conforming technology
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Lol what? How would allowing a demand to legally be utilized via registration and tags for lightweight electric vehicles up to 20kw and 50 mph eliminate the demand? It would increase it. Duh.
Or its a dumb law and should be changed to reflect the current demand. Again enforcement of a law for near silent, off road capable vehicles, that can go 50 mph, while the rider wears a helmet, and no tags are on it, is virtually impossible. In order to enforce ANYTHING, you first need to be able to identify the rider. That means you need to INCENTIVIZE them to tag it. Which means cheap and easy tags before any enforcement is feasible.
BoringBob84@reddit
Registration does not need to be cheap and easy to create an incentive. The knowledge that a police officer will arrest the rider and impound the unregistered machine is a powerful incentive for motorcycle riders to register their machines. The same should be true for e-motos. I think that will happen over time, as less people are deceived by attempts to conflate electric motorcycles and legal ebikes.
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Well if it isnt working than it obviously needs an incentive. There are obviously a huge number of people that arent concerned about arresting and impounding bikes. Beyond that, if the police did go on a crazy campaign to do so, the public outcry and injuries and deaths associated with it, along with the manpower diverted from serious and real crimes, would be extreme. Plus, to repeat yet again, these are nearly silent, off road capable, 50 mph vehicles on two wheels. Catching them is already extremely problematic. Cops already are banned in most areas from pursuing motorcycles for similar reasons.
Sooo, again we are back to the only way to actually enforce these laws, without increasing fatalities and injuries by a factor of 10, is to be able to identify the bikes and then send a fine in the mail. In order to do this, you have to incentivize, not try to force, people to tag their bikes. That means cheap and easy and not all "its a motorcycle"ish. Thats 5-20 dollar tags, no inspections, perhaps a weight limit of 150 lbs, and helmet requirements. It must be simple and easy and the SAME or similar everywhere. Otherwise, people will just continue to ignore the law and police will continue to ignore them doing so, in most cases.
78Anonymous@reddit
you're obviously not a competent person to warrant a serious response
Separate-Command1993@reddit
In Tennessee I’m applying for a VIN for mine and my sons electric dirtbikes so I can register them, usually we just ride off road though but if I can get a tag I can ride in the road in town. Hopefully they let me do it
WilliamBontrager@reddit
Good luck. Its so tough to get anything registered in most areas. It shouldn't be that way.
mickeyaaaa@reddit
the first motorcycles were motorized bicycles. they have always been intertwined. get over it.
KN4AQ@reddit
I'll get over it when the Yahoo doing 35 mph on the local Greenway gets over it.
Early-Accident-8770@reddit
Just set up roadblocks like the Dutch police. They have a speed estimating van and if the moped or e-bike is capable of over the speed limit for e-bikes they are seized and crushed. Keep setting them up in areas where use is problematic.
EaterofSnatch@reddit
Sounds more n*zi like than Dutch
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Totalitarianism has many forms.
Duct_TapeOrWD40@reddit
Stop gatekeeping. If someone wants an e-moped and legally buy and use it then you shall accept his law abaiding decision.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
That's kinda the problem, they aren't used legally
stormdelta@reddit
Part of that is the fault of archaic or even actively hostile legal frameworks that make registering practical mopeds all but impossible in many states.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Need an X class like airplanes. You assume all liability when operating it, but your can fly, or ride, it.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Thank god YOU’re here! Has anyone done your obligatory daily affirmation of recognizing you for the HERO you are? 🙄
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Sadly.. no.
But its ok, I really dont care what other people think.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Tall tale.
SadisticPawz@reddit
"because I said so"
78Anonymous@reddit
legally buy and legally use are entirely different things
robotcoke@reddit
They should have pedals, I agree with you there. You're wrong on the rest of that.
How your bike looks, if the next person likes it, if the next person would change the seat, etc, etc. None of that changes the fact that it is still a bike. If it goes faster than most others, so what? There are kids pedal bikes that don't even have a motor and look like a motorcycle. They're still bikes.
We're not seeing a huge uptick in innocent people being seriously hurt from being hit by an ebike. We're pretending a problem exists just so we can put more controls on the population, which is supposed to be a free population.
If I seriously hurt someone on my bike, then hold me accountable. Until then, leave me alone. That's what the US Constitution demands. I'm to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. So for you to assume I'm going to break the law is against the constitution.
BoringBob84@reddit
It is no problem until you hit a pedestrian and run away to leave them bleeding (or dead) on the sidewalk.
That is a simplistic and incorrect understanding. Rights are not absolute. Government has a right and a duty to restrict rights when they come into conflict. Furthermore, using public roads and paths is not a right. It is a privilege.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
Why do we need to make up ridiculous hypotheticals to justify policy and regulation? The facts are that no more kids are getting hurt than ever and no more pedestrians are getting hurt than always. I see 100x more e bicycles driving dangerously than I do emotos. Mainly because I’ve literally never seen anything like what you people talk about and I live in a major metro area
BoringBob84@reddit
Source?
Separate-Command1993@reddit
Do you have a source to say the opposite?
BoringBob84@reddit
Your logical fallacy is Burden of Proof
The internet is saturated with unsubstantiated claims. It is not my responsibility to disprove them all. If I make a claim and I cannot substantiate it, then other people can dismiss it as easily as I made it up.
You stated that your claim was "facts." I am challenging that.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
Tf are you talking about, I gave you my source? You still haven’t given me one to support your claim. I ain’t reading that word salad , give me a real source
BoringBob84@reddit
I can see that you edited your comment after I replied. And that source that you magically produced after the fact says nothing about, "no more kids are getting hurt than ever and no more pedestrians are getting hurt than always."
Separate-Command1993@reddit
It says that the same amount of people are being killed by both, meaning if it’s a bicycle or a motorcycle the deaths are the same on a per rider basis. Since adding e-bikes is just increasing the number of rider while the deaths relatively stay the same
BoringBob84@reddit
I see what you did there. You moved the goal post from "getting hurt" to "being killed," apparently hoping that I wouldn't notice this awkward sentence in the article that you linked:
robotcoke@reddit
So you're here advocating for tougher restrictions, without giving a reason for the tougher restrictions? Or are you saying the restrictions are needed because the faster ones are causing injuries and death?
Either way, if you're advocating for tougher restrictions then the burden is on you to prove the need is real.
robotcoke@reddit
Ig that ever happens, then obviously hold them accountable. We have cameras everywhere and our phones are constantly tracking us. It won't be difficult to catch anyone who runs away.
Lol, you are dead wrong. No, the government does NOT have a right to restrict rights. Only after you've committed a crime. Prior to you committing a crime, the government does not have a right or duty to restrict your rights.
And traveling freely is a right, not a privilege. The argument used about cars on the road being a privilege has always been "you can still ride a bike, it's only cars being regulated, so your rights are not being infringed upon." But they no longer holds water if we start regulating bikes.
BoringBob84@reddit
Right. No license plate, long sleeves, gloves, helmet, face mask, and dark glasses. Super easy to identify and catch them when they flee on a motorcycle. /sarcasm
You are confidently wrong. The "LOL" makes it even more ironic.
robotcoke@reddit
And I'll say the same thing without sarcasm. It's NOT that difficult. They catch people who ran on foot all the time. They have a record of every mobile phone location and route. They already know who was in the area and where they fled to. It doesn't matter though because this is so rare it's not even worth worrying about. People walking in the sidewalk don't get killed by ebikes.
No I'm not wrong. You just apparently don't understand the law. If you want to change the constitution, that's one thing. But for you to say, "is the government's right and duty to ignore the constitution when it wants to..." is comically incorrect.
BoringBob84@reddit
That isn't what I said. I understand how ego makes some people prefer to be wrong than to admit that they are wrong.
robotcoke@reddit
Well then what are exactly are you saying? As I said, the constitution flat out guarantees certain rights - including the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. You then said it's the government's right and duty to restrict our rights. Well the only legal way to do that is to amend the constitution if we're taking about the rights guaranteed by the constitution. Either that or just ignore the constitution.
Spell out what you mean if you're so confident that you're correct.
BoringBob84@reddit
Yes - you have repeated what you believe over and over and over again. You seem to be absolutely certain.
For anyone who is genuinely curious about this topic (which is far off-topic from ebikes), here are two articles from the Legal Information Institute at Cornell Law School. They define "fundamental rights" and how the government can restrict them if it passes "strict scrutiny. Excerpts:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fundamental_right
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/strict_scrutiny
robotcoke@reddit
I am absolutely certain. It's hilarious watching you try to pretend you're correct here when you're so obviously and comically incorrect on this issue.
Uh, were not talking about fundamental rights here. We're talking about what's literally guaranteed in the constitution.
Now if it's that difficult to restrict a fundamental right, I don't know what on earth makes you think it's legal to restrict constitutional rights.
Yeah man, if you don't understand the difference between a fundamental right and a constitutional right, then you shouldn't be trying to debate this.
BoringBob84@reddit
If you had bothered to read the first paragraph of the first article article before you embarrassed yourself further, you would have learned, "the difference between a fundamental right and a constitutional right."
maximumpynk@reddit
I agree. Throttles should be banned. Right now, the throttle loophole is letting companies sell what are essentially lightweight motorcycles and they get away with it just by bolting on pedals.
We're pursuing legislation to that effect in my area and lawmakers seem to agree. We'll just have one class of e-bike. Other countries handle this without issue. Class 1 with PAS that goes to 20 mph or 28 mph (because America). Issues of torque or power can be addressed without a throttle.
stormdelta@reddit
There is no "throttle loophole". You're talking about dirtbikes that they get away with selling because they are legal for offroad/private use same as gas powered dirtbikes, it has nothing to do with throttle or not.
Your obsessive, irrational hatred of throttles is not based in any notion of making people safer, it's based in an archaic view of cycling in the US as a form of recreation/fitness and a refusal to accept that people use bikes for transportation.
maximumpynk@reddit
It is a loophole. These 80–120 lb machines are never sold without a throttle, because without one they wouldn’t qualify as e‑bikes or function as bicycles. The throttle is what lets manufacturers bypass laws. People use PAS only e‑bikes for transportation all over the world. You don't need a throttle.
stormdelta@reddit
What point do you imagine you're trying to make here? Policies are about safety, not your personal subjective opinion of what "counts" as a bicycle.
You have yet to explain how.
Other parts of the world have far better transit and cycling infrastructure, mass transit, less car centric cities, graduated requirements for vehicle classes, etc.
Again, policies should be about holistic safety outcomes, not your personal subjective opinions about cycling.
maximumpynk@reddit
A throttle is a substitute for pedaling, not a substitute for infrastructure. PAS are used in places without great infrastructure all over the world. I'm speaking on why we need to adjust regulatory classifications, why throttle and pedals create a pathway to sell these big machines as bicycles, often to kids.
Clear classes is how we get holistic safety so remove the throttle and these machines fall back into Class 1/3 PAS. You get the lighter bikes, real pedals you have to push, and actual bike behavior. None of this motor only operation to move a 80-pound machine at 20mph stuff. Motor only is a different vehicle class.
iregreteverything15@reddit
OP, you are going to get a lot of flack on this sub for this opinion. But this sub is filled with 14 year olds and, even worse, grown men who think like 14 year olds. I've seen so much bad reasoning in the comments here. False equivalency, down playing, spurious claims, etc. It's all just weak attempts at deflection.
The good news is that more serious people with actual power are already working on the problem that you are talking about. At the national level, The Safe SEEDS Bill is working its way through congress. Some states are putting their own limits on ebikes. For instance, California has bill AB 1557 to put limits on ebikes. Furthermore, a lot of European countries have laws separating ebikes from e mopeds and e motorcycles. This chart illustrates the categories specifically in Ireland, but most European countries have similar categories. You'll see that the faster more powerful vehicles are still available to purchase and ride, but they have licensing, registration, and insurance requirements. Very sensible stuff.
Anytime some restrictions are proposed in America, you see specious claims on this sub. "This will be the end of ebikes!" No, it will be fine. Even some of the more reasonable sounding concerns, like, "What about handicap people?," quickly fall apart. We already have all sorts of provisions and exceptions for people with disabilities. We can certain ebikes accessible to them without making them accessible to the general public.
E-bicycles are great. E-motos, E-mopeds, and E-motorcycles are great too they just should have some additional requirements. That's all.
The one deflection that I will agree with is, "Why is no one talking about cars?" It is absolutely insane that we do not have more restrictions on cars. 36,640 were killed in the U.S. last year due to cars. There should be all sorts of restrictions on speed, power, pedestrian safety, graduated licensing, re-education and re-testing for drivers, and much more enforcement and harsher penalties for dangerous drivers. I 100 percent agree. The only problem, is political will. There is broad support to put restrictions on ebikes/emotos. Not so much for cars. I hope we can get to a place where we can limit the danger of cars, but that is going to be very uphill war.
So I agree with putting restrictions on ebikes and emotos, but I don't get too bent out of shape about it. Because it pales in comparison to the real danger. Cars.
stormdelta@reddit
You'll find that most people here do in fact support the three class system.
The problem is when people try to push EU-style restrictions that don't make sense here or even worse, garbage like what New Jersey passed that is just a soft ban on all ebikes.
iregreteverything15@reddit
"There's also the issue that our laws around mopeds are woefully outdated and we need to provide better legal paths for e-mopeds..."
Agreed. And I think that is what a lot of people on this sub want. Something more like an e-moped. I've been to the sun belt. I get it. I just think that they should have some form of graduated licensing requirement. Less onerous than a motorcycle. But more than nothing at all.
"The problem is when people try to push EU-style restrictions that don't make sense here..."
Eh. I disagree on this point. I have a bike that conforms to the pedelec restrictions. Technically it can go up to 20 mph, but I rarely do. I'm mostly just at 15-16 mph which is the EU restriction. If it was limited to that, I wouldn't miss it. 250W is a lot more useful than people give it credit for. I haul around two kids and their stuff with it. And a lot of e mountain bikers have 250W mid drives. Again, if the US were to implement EU restrictions, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Provided that they came in tandem with reforms to moped laws for those that want that.
tryptych99@reddit
This gets posted endlessly week after week in this sub. Over and over and over.
Just rename the sub to "Karens on Bikes".
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
I have two E bikes, an 19mph cargo bike & a 28mph regular 27" EBike. I see why they limited the e bikes to 28mph... Most of us have never ridden a bicycle with a proper speedometer, 28mph is as fast as I feel comfortable going as an adult man & I slow way down on sidewalks or where people or cars might be coming out of.
EaterofSnatch@reddit
28 mph is slow especially with the amount of road riding I do. When I'm going through a town I should be able to go with the flow of traffic instead of impeding it. This is why I'm considering a WIRED bike when I upgrade from aventon. Will be much safer, with less chance of someone running me over from behind on a slower ebike.
Human-Acadia-5109@reddit
I just got a predator after 3 years on a ride1up 700. Around here, 30mph speed limits means people are going anywhere from 25 to 40. It's far safer to match traffic speed than it is to be going 10 below.
EaterofSnatch@reddit
Jealous of your ride, and agree completely with you
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
And your comfort level should be the standard because, why?
Just because?
Physical_Delivery853@reddit
Apparently my comfort level seems to be universal or the laws being passed wouldn't include a 28mph limit, now whould they :)
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Being in the majority does not make you right.
CavalierPumpkin@reddit
Agreed, and I would add that 28 mph on my ebike feels notably sketchier than going well over twice that speed on my motorcycle because of the differences in balance, handling, and braking.
I don't necessarily agree with the "bikes should look like bikes" part of OP's argument, but it should be noted that there are reasons for different construction at different intended speeds, and the standard bike frame and components simply aren't designed to go as fast as many 1000W-plus motors can push them.
stormdelta@reddit
Agreed, 28mph is a pretty good cutoff.
I've found that minimum emergency braking distance increases very rapidly past that even on bikes with good brakes and plenty of traction.
anonanon1313@reddit
I've hit 60 mph a couple of times on my pedal bike, frequently exceed 30 mph on modest downhills.
My ebike weighs ~60#, (30# bike with 30# of batt & motor). I weigh 230# + gear, and often pull trailers. My motor is 1000W, which many jurisdictions requires a license, which is kind of nuts. I have pedals & shifters, but also a thumb throttle which is very handy for low speed movement. I'm perfectly happy with speed limits on bike paths, but on roads?
NJdestroyed@reddit
Sounds like it's a moped
NewsreelWatcher@reddit
This in perceptible gradation between e-bikes and e-motos is a real danger to the future of e-bikes. The majority of people aren’t moved by quoting them regulations and numbers. A clear visual difference would help. Simply not allowing the sale of e-motos above 750 watts (1 horsepower) to have pedals would make the defense of e-bikes as a practical form of transportation easier. No one with more power than that needs pedals. Any e-motos above this power limit could have their pedals easily removed without any degradation of the performance. Just replace them with foot pegs. It would be visual signal of one being a bicycle and another being a motorcycle. One could further demand that the only way to throttle the electric motor be through the pedals on an e-bike. This would make cargo bike harder to start from a stop, but maybe an allowance for better torque sensors or a boost button would help. E-bike styled as e-motos are brutal to pedal. But style is historically hard to write laws for. People are very clever about getting around such subjective rules. However, the motorcycle style of e-bikes would fall out of favor quickly if people were to be forced to actually pedal them.
I would also be in favor of banning the use of all e-bikes for children under a certain age. Young people have bad judgment. 750 watts should be limited to people of the age of majority.
weraincllc@reddit
Some things don't make sense to me, like how i can maintain 30+ mph on my road bike on flat ground and it is def not an ebike. Go ahead, flame on,downvote. But i think responsible riding is key here.
BoringBob84@reddit
Unless you are an elite professional racer, you cannot do that. And those people are very rare.
weraincllc@reddit
Tires and chainring has ALOT to do with speed, if you we're wondering.
weraincllc@reddit
Have you never had a nice roadbike before? 30 is not as hard as you think it is, i ride easily 30 miles a day, oftentimes with an ebike oftentimes without. if anything the Ebike slows me down, it's to heavy and can't go as fast as my roadbikes. i ride it because of hills.
Dook23@reddit
At a speed of 30+ maybe, but i can maintain 20+ mph for quite some time without assistance. Most serious riders can do that. That 20+ speed is too much for shared trails yet people always want to blame emotos and such when even someone on a manual bike can be a hazard. Hence why like others i am fully for enforcing behaviors not vehicles.
BoringBob84@reddit
"Serious riders" are rare and they also have experience. Anyone with no experience at all can maintain that pace on an ebike. They are not the same level of danger.
Dook23@reddit
You think serious riders are rare? I am not referring to people who race or something like that. I am referring to cyclists who ride daily and have been doing so for years, both for exercise and commuting. In my county alone there are a few thousand of them. You are thinking of people who compete or something, which is not who I am referring to.
SlashNreap@reddit
You cannot expect technology to regress because your vision of bicycles/Ebikes suits a specific niche. Bicycles have always been a canvas for technology, if it didn't and if people like you kept pushing for regression, we'd be stuck with the single-speeds of the 1800s. If the problem is abuse, then deal with the people who do, not the machines.
78Anonymous@reddit
they're referring to the existing legal requirements for ebikes 🙄
SlashNreap@reddit
Well referring to the existing legal requirements for ebikes isn't a personal opinion. It's just legislation.
78Anonymous@reddit
Legislation that many are ignoring.
How can you not see the problem?
SlashNreap@reddit
I don't see what your point is in relation to what I said. I never argued that there shouldn't be legislations in place or that people shouldn't follow them. People ignoring rules and not caring about other people's safety is a major problem, yeah. But I'm not challenging that, I'm talking about technological regress here.
The main issue with vehicles in general is behavioral, not technological. OP is arguing against certain technological aspects, I don't agree with that.
BoringBob84@reddit
Yes - let's lift the restrictions on the machines and enforce rider behavior instead. But I refuse to pay the additional taxes for strict enforcement. And I hate the cops when they arrest people for "just having fun." And I oppose licensing and registration requirements that would allow the police to hold irresponsible riders accountable. Trust me bro, I really want to solve this safety problem. /sarcasm
SlashNreap@reddit
I don't know, every Ebike, E-moped rider I've come across on a bike path have been nothing but courteous and rode according to the law. But I live in the nordics and people don't have a "Fuck the police and everyone but me" attitude, so, that could be why.
Of course there shouldn't be crushing legislations on Ebikes. There has to be a reasonable middle-ground. Is it really that controversial to say rider behavior is the issue? The Ebike isn't going to ride itself. (yet) lol
BoringBob84@reddit
Absolutely not. I agree with that statement, but I do not agree with the claim that we should focus on that exclusively and not place reasonable restrictions on the machines.
SlashNreap@reddit
No I agree with reasonable restrictions. I'm arguing against wider bans on the principle that some legislators might go "Alright, this has X & Y component, let's boil it down to a motorcycle." It's equally as dangerous because then you're expecting users of technically less capable vehicles to compete with others who have had their form & function developped over 100+ years.
No one in their right mind will take an Engwe M20 on the same roads they would a purposefully built motorcycle like a Honda CB650, or hell, a Zero motorcycle, for example. It's just not a match, technologically speaking. Their use case is just not the same.
But anyway, at the end of the day, yes, I am for a bigger emphasis on education on the road. So far, any vehicle will obey the user, regardless of input. If the user chooses to be neglectful, or fails to be safe using it, it's their responsibility. Restrictions are good for compliance with norms, not necessarily broader safety. A mix of both is best.
78Anonymous@reddit
most fail scrutiny according to UK and EU legislation, so it's not worth the conversation because everyone using such bikes is going to be liable for whatever happens to them without insurance coverage
do people really think throttle only controls and more than 250W output is not easily detectable
SadisticPawz@reddit
It isnt lol
78Anonymous@reddit
of course it's easily detectable .. the riding style from afar and the technical spec up close .. for example throttles shouldn't even be on bikes in the UK and EU
HillbillyRebel@reddit
An e-bike is an e-bike by definition and in most cases, law (e.g., Class, 1,2, and 3). Same for an e-motorcycle and e-moped.
The problem is people's perception and not calling them by what they are. People are confusing e-motos for e-bikes.
Tighter restrictions and more laws on e-bikes will not solve the problem that are being seen by people riding illegal e-motos. It is not e-bike riders that are causing these issues.
(Disclaimer: Nothing those that ride e-motos. You do you. Just pointing out what we already know.)
rickoshadows@reddit
We are in the "wild west" stage of personal transportation right now. Enjoy it while you can. Regulations will eventually catch up, sooner if there start to be deaths and injuries. If you are going to invest a good amount of funds, try to get a feel for some of the regulations and restrictions which may come down in the near to mid future and purchase accordingly. One can only hope that the backlash among the pedestrian and automobile communities doesn't destroy the convenience and freedom of personal transport.
BadluckyKamy@reddit
Kinda why ive got a class1 ebike, it's the less likely to be ban ebike + the E7000 and my legs are plenty powerful to climb any hills easily.
Dook23@reddit
Unfortunately in my area that might as well not even be an ebike as it would be zero help getting up the two hills right outside my house. I have ridden models with more torque than the E7000 that could barely help me up the hills. If i didnt have knee and ankle issues then maybe it would be fine but I need something with more power.
BadluckyKamy@reddit
I have a dumb question, but is it a mid Drive ebike? My 250watts ebike climb better than my gf 1000watts e-scooter with a hub motor
Dook23@reddit
Most of them were hub drives, like a Lectric XP4
BadluckyKamy@reddit
Hub drive aren't very efficient for climbing, try a mid drive. they can use the gear on the cassette for extra torque 😎
Dook23@reddit
Understood but I already have one that is more of a moped that works for me.
Imaginary-Leading-49@reddit
I feel like this sub is being flooded with this same post, lazy and low effort.
Fit-Bedroom-7645@reddit
The thing is, those aren't e-bikes, they're e-motos. It's tedious that they somehow always get lumped in together when I'm pretty sure almost all countries have clear definitions of when a bike becomes a moped or motorbike.
BoringBob84@reddit
That doesn't just happen. Owners of those machines intentionally try to conflate them with legal ebikes to avoid the responsibility of a motorcycle.
terraherts@reddit
The same way people like you try to conflate legal class 2 ebikes with "motorcycles" just because they have a throttle.
BoringBob84@reddit
Where did I say that?
terraherts@reddit
You have complained about throttles and suggested they should be banned more than once.
BoringBob84@reddit
I can see the goal posts starting to move. You claimed that I, "try to conflate legal class 2 ebikes with "motorcycles" just because they have a throttle." Then your claim shifted to, "complained about throttles and suggested they should be banned."
Please speak for yourself and let me do the same. I would prefer that throttles be limited to walking speed and I often remind people that throttles are not allowed on Class 3 ebikes.
Fit-Bedroom-7645@reddit
Yeah but I can wear a goat costume and it doesn't make me a goat. It's trivially easy for police to identify non compliant bikes. And they do relentlessly.
Humble_Scar4885@reddit
Ebikes should not have throttles
Separate-Command1993@reddit
You people are complaining about a SMALL percentage of riders and it’s kind of crazy. I live in a massive city and have never seen a Surron on the highways or streets doing wheelies and whatever else you all complain about. How many “edit bikes” have been sold? How many people do you actually see riding like you all bitch about? A handful? Not everyone with an electric dirtbike is acting like an asshole and you guys need to stop gatekeeping
BoringBob84@reddit
... while we watch governments regulate all ebikes away because we were too timid to say anything about irresponsible riders on illegal machines.
That is not going to happen.
Dook23@reddit
If I am not mistaken, I think he was addressing that comment to mean people complaining here on the subreddit, not like speaking to their local government or something. It is his gatekeeping remark that makes me think he is referring to the subreddit itself.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
Bingo
BoringBob84@reddit
I think that "gatekeeping" is a bullshit, made-up word - like "virtue signaling" to summarily dismiss valid arguments using ridicule.
I think that we should be able to have good-faith discussions on how to promote micro-mobility, while addressing real safety concerns.
Dook23@reddit
I am guessing you think this way because you aren't paying attention to how some people here on the subreddit use the term. Its often used against people when all their comments are about "thats not an ebike" or whatever else being discussed outside of a true class 1-3 ebike because the subreddit description itself states otherwise.
Ro-54@reddit
It’s an American we have no laws or rules thing. You should have to pedal for it to be classified a bike.
rfie@reddit
Totally agree.
TrueNova332@reddit
The problem is people are confusing emotos with ebikes and then the crowd of people who ride them all crazy are ruining it for the people who ride them for gig apps or to do short errands as a majority of people use them for
stormdelta@reddit
Moped and motorcycle are very different, and should have different requirements.
That's not something you can base a useful policy on from a safety POV. If you want to address things like handling or weight, we should be targeting those directly instead.
Bikes are for transportation, not just fitness/recreation, and the sooner people like you learn to accept that the better. Policy needs to be based on holistic safety outcomes, not people's subjective biases.
Tight-Book-7533@reddit
With batteries getting more energy dense, it makes sense that the two categories are merging. I have been asking the same question, "What is the difference between an electric bike and an electric motorbike?". In engineering terms, they are now pretty close if not identical. They are basically both an electric motor on two wheels. I guess it is up to law makers to create the distinction.
Currently, they seem to define ebike as having pedals and motorbikes as controlled by throttle. Although I have seen many sold as ebikes with throttle control. I really don't know the solution at the moment
stormdelta@reddit
In the US at least, most states follow the three class system, and class 2 ebikes are allow to have throttles - but they have the exact same power and speed restrictions as a class 1.
BoringBob84@reddit
Also, limits on power and speed define a legal ebike.
DonnPT@reddit
Batteries getting more energy dense? Is this a change in chemistry?
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Yes. A google search is your friend. Solid state.
DonnPT@reddit
OK, thanks, hypothetical future batteries.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Google search harder. Not hypothetical at all. Currently implemented in the Verge TS Pro. Has not trickled down to our stuff yet and will probably be a bit til we see it.
Tek2674@reddit
I think that’s why the distinction between E-bikes and Emotos is so important.
stormdelta@reddit
The problem is a lot of the people claiming they care about the difference will turn right around and try to conflate legal class 2 and 3 ebikes with motorcycles, which is just as bad.
maximumpynk@reddit
Remove the throttle from these bikes and that solves the problem. If people want throttle‑only riding, that’s cool but that’s a moped, scooter, or motorcycle. It may be the case that ppl don't want to pay the premium for those vehicles or deal with licensing and registration, so they’re using e‑bikes as a workaround. I've seen many annoyed that Class 3 throttle is capped at 20 instead of 28. You don't want to pedal. Get a moped.
Work is being done to get them throttles removed via legislation, so we'll see how it pans out.
c3161@reddit
The problem is that this forum is international and the definition of an e-bike varies around the world. In Europe for example it's just a bicycle with a little motor that helps it get to 25km/h but in North America anything with two wheels and an electric engine is classed as an e-bike, even if it can do 120km/h, and even children are allowed to ride these.
BassesNBikes@reddit
That is demonstrably untrue.
c3161@reddit
Half of the posts in this forum are either kids or the parents of kids asking for recommendations on "e-bikes" to buy, mainly with the criteria that they need to go as far and as fast as possible for as little money as possible
BassesNBikes@reddit
Doesn't change the legal definition, but definitely. The Sovereign Citizens of the e-mobility world insist that the rules that ensure everyone else's safety and allow e-bikes to exist at all don't apply to them.
KI6WBH@reddit
Agreed, a few states are looking at requiring a motorcycle license and registration and insurance because of this.
FL-Cracker@reddit
I ride a fat tire bike that weighs close to 100 pounds, it goes about 28, and i don't give a shit if it bothers you.
Winter_Bullfrog_2343@reddit
Man this sub loves to circlejerk this topic and gatekeep your idea of what an e bike it or isn’t.
Just go back to riding an actual bicycle.
Take a horse and buggy to work while you’re at it.
The world is ever evolving (and devolving in some ways…). Hopefully the innovations will continue and we will get to experience the rewards.
BoringBob84@reddit
Your logical fallacy is Strawman. The law is real and so are concerns about safety.
[Your logical fallacy is Appeal to Ridicule(https://www.logicalfallacies.org/appeal-to-ridicule.html). No one is trying to stop technology.
[Your logical fallacy is Ad Hominem(https://www.logicalfallacies.org/ad-hominem.html). Personal attacks are not substitutes for valid arguments.
In other words, your attempts to distract, deceive, and intimidate don't work on me.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Deep-Experience-1003@reddit
I’m legitimately so tired of this complaint.
ClownShowTrippin@reddit
You can have as much or as little of the "bike" part as you want. The laws will eventually need to catch up, and in places like California they will eventually force registration, insurance, and probably a license. Some of this is necessary, some of it will be over the top and yet another tax grab from the government. What I know for sure is the discrepancy between the stated goal of climate change and the complete failure to recognize ebikes as a solution. You could have a family of 5 all on their own ebikes and have better efficiency than if all of them were stuffed in a model 3. If concerns about climate change are serious we should welcome all forms of ebikes, it's just a matter of setting the regulations right.
Dry_Inspection_4583@reddit
I like my fake ebike.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Me too. What I don’t like is spandex wearing, lance armstrong wannabe, Tour de France cosplayers. I want to campaign against them and their incessant gatekeeping. Can we have a questionnaire to join this group and the first questions be about favorite spandex brands/ colors/ liveries which unbeknownst to these clowns ends in an auto permaban?
Dry_Inspection_4583@reddit
I'm fairly certain things are supposed to be fun. And that changes for everyone, evidence of this comes in the fact that some people like spicy food, others don't.
And that's not to water down the dialogue regarding safety, standards, rules, but my fuck Karen, you aren't an authority on the street, if you don't like it go talk someone over it, idgaf whether you agree, like, or support my decisions, I do care that you respect my freedom and not be an ass clown and come yammering at me like you're an authority on anything.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
And yet you and the rest of your spandex cronies keep screaming on here every day about what is and what is not a bicycle in your opinions and how any of the rest of us that don’t share your gatekeepy opinions are wrong. It’s a two way street and you too are fully and equally capable of fucking off.
miagi_do@reddit
A challenge with e-bikes is trails may ban all electric assisted bikes from trails when they really were more focused on the stronger variety. I am of the view that mountain bikes with some pedal assists should not be ban because it increases the popularity of the activity which results in more trails being opened and/or maintained well.
Longster_dude@reddit
So… like Class 1 then.
Fishfisherton@reddit
The US is a country ruled by cars. A car culture that specifically has shifted into a desire for looks and size over mileage and purpose. Look at any parking lot and you'll probably see a lot of pickup trucks and SUVs instead of sedans, despite the fact that pretty much all of those owners will not need 'sport utility' or rarely use their pickup bed for anything to the point of trying to keep it spotless (pavement princesses).
Of course the natural course for these people when it comes to bikes is that 'BIGGER IS BETTER'. It's gotta be fast and big and looks cool!
So naturally when these people hear about ebikes that's what they buy....then the sellers of these specific bikes get more money for more advertising and production to keep pushing that image. They want to be the first name that comes up when EBIKE is mentioned and they'll use their funding to secure the market because that's what capitalism is.
This is why this shit needs to be called out. This is why it's annoying when people spend their money these things that can hurt others more than themselves. Whenever people spend money on these things it just further enables these companies to exert their influence over an easily manipulable market.
SnuffyMcfluff@reddit
The number of people who conflate scooters with mopeds is astounding.
Mopeds have pedals (mo-ped get it) they have tiny two stroke engines and are slow as fuck.
You don’t see them much any more but they were very popular in the 80s.
Sorry to go tangent but this trend of cluelessness must stop.
skippytheowl@reddit
If only people spent as much time and passion discussing motor vehicles and the carnage they create every year.
SadisticPawz@reddit
Theres nothing to say that an ebike cant be a mini moped.
TitaniumKneecap@reddit
Yesterday I was on my way home and there were 6 broccoli hair eboy high schoolers on surrons in the bike lane doing 40+ while wheelying and doing that stupid shit where they hop all over the seat.
We need a plague.
gsasquatch@reddit
That's like your opinion man
My take?
Bicycles have been too long considered a recreational vehicle in the US "Enhance the cycling experience" is great if you're riding for fun, but if you're riding for transport, it might be more about getting there. ebikes are making bicycles about transport again.
For that, comfort, like not sticking a bicycle seat far up your ass, and sweating it off is the name of the game. Think tour de france for ultimate human efficency vs. Amsterdam bikes for getting to work. People on the tour de france don't need to worry about getting their work uniform dirty, their work is the cycling, for that they wear ridiculous costumes and don't need fenders. E-bikes have moved the needle on bicycles from sport to commute, where they more properly are, to reduce the physical volume of traffic.
Without the pain of having to move so much weight around because the electric does not bring pain, designs are free to do things with shapes adding weight etc. that are not efficient to pedal, but work for other reasons, so the shape of the bike is going to look different, and yes more like a motorcycle, at least a sit up and beg universal Japanese motorcycle vs. a crotch rocket or getting full leg extension on the down stroke of the pedal.
ebikes are too slow. They are great on side streets, where 20mph is enough, but on feeder roads, roads that go here to there, cars move 40mph, and bikes should be able to as well. An ebike that can do 40ish mph can live with the cars, and not have to be regulated to the side with pedestrians and bicyclists. This is seen in San Jose Costa Rica, with the prolific 125-250cc motorcycles, which would be equivalent to a 3000-5000 watt ebike in terms of power. We should move toward that.
It might work in Amsterdam, with more bicycles than cars to not have "e" as prevelant, but in the US, designed around the car, and the cars rule the road, we should have the ebikes be able to move within that infrastructure and with the cars, for the generations it will take to transition away from cars, if we even do.
I've found a bicycle can be faster than a car or a motorcycle, for being able to live between the cars, and take liberties with traffic laws as they do and be able to park closer. Motorcycles are limited, for having to behave like cars in traffic. My state recently enabled lane filtering to help that, but it is limited, it doesn't go far enough. People clutch their pearls and say "That's so dangerous" not recognizing the danger is for the rider, and the rider who is not sitting in traffic, is not traffic, making less traffic for the pearl clutcher.
400lbs of bike and rider, do a lot less damage that 3400lbs of car and driver. This is reflected in the liability insurance for my gas motorcycle costing half what it does for my car.
I came to ebikes when I moved to a town with a hill, such that anywhere I go, I have 600ft of elevation to cope with. Going downhill, I'm going 35mph, even with out the "e" I got the "e" to go uphill because I am not fit enough to do that. While it is a worthy goal to get fit enough to do that, in the meantime I need to get to work and the grocery store.
To me a real ebike has 2 wheels, and is electric. I think instead of trying to ban or shun these newer faster not real (to you) ebikes , we should allow for them and embrace them. I can and have taken a 25 question multiple choice test and start riding a 100,000watt bike without pedals the same day. The regulations and licensing won't keep you safe. More regulation is not better. Lets let people do what they want to do. A law that is widely broken, is not a good law.
Trying to narrow the definition of ebike is either going to increase the number of law breakers, or limit a transportation option that reduces emissions and traffic volume, and enables people who aren't as fit or not able to afford a car, or shouldn't be driving a car to have options to participate in society.
If we want to move away from cars and fossil fuels, we should embrace ebikes in whatever form.
arnar62@reddit
Thoughts on 80s banana seat bmx bikes lol? Or cruisers with small gas engines on them lol?
Medium_Chain_9329@reddit
Simple, make all dirtbikes Street legal and E bikes go away over night.
Mjofrap23@reddit
honestly agree with your take! i see these massive "ebikes" zooming around campus at like 30mph and they're literally just electric motorcycles with token pedals that nobody actually uses 🙃.
TrippyDaveXB1@reddit
how to farm karma in the ebike sub 101
w4drone@reddit
There is one post on this subreddit oml
thirtynation@reddit
K
BodSmith54321@reddit
While I agree in principle. It's silly to dictate style. Most ebikes have throttles.
gokdbarsgold@reddit
This isn’t Australia, where we beg the government to require a firearm license to possess an Orbeez gel blaster toy.
There are fewer and fewer things in this world that people can simply enjoy. Leave people alone.
PreferenceAny3920@reddit
Chemical-Working-262@reddit
i generally agree with your definition sure, but i think the bigger issue is that your definition isnt exactly fully quantifiable, and i think that is where a lot more of the grind is coming from
nrsys@reddit
Most countries actually have far stricter laws than you realise, the manufacturers have just done a superb job of muddying the waters and sowing confusion regarding exactly what is and isn't allowed.
In the UK for example, ebikes need to be pedal assist only (you are not allowed throttle control above walking speed), and with a limited top speed and output. Anything outside of this should be licensed - so most of the delivery riders scooting around on throttle controlled bikes with unused pedals are likely breaking the law.
So we need two things;
One is for the authorities to actually enforce the rules so that there is some consequences of running an illegal bike.
Second is that we need to clarify and publicise the laws so there is no excuse for confusion. As I see it, the current UK laws are fine for a license free, uninsured bike - they are kept broadly in line with a fully manual pedal bike. We then need the delivery special - equivalent to a petrol powered moped that can be ridden on a limited license and insurance, with throttle control and power/speed limits equivalent to a moped style vehicle. Then the full electric bikes, which are just electric motorbikes and licensed and insured as such.
Odd-Lime-2738@reddit
Fair go, a lot of them aren’t just e-motorbikes. They’re shit e-motorbikes. 🤣
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
Saw one a kid brought into the trek store. No front brake, just a rear drum brakes.
Even my 77 Vespa has more braking power.
Superb_Raccoon@reddit
No true Scotsman...
PunkerTFC@reddit
Well that's just like, uh, your opinion man.
TopRepulsive4766@reddit
Where I'm from (Canada/USA...I'm a dual citizen), the term 'bike' can apply to various vehicles:
Motorcycle/motorbike
Dirt bike (both gas and electric)
Pedal bike/bicycle
Moped (gas and electric)
Ebike (all types)
And I even hear those stationary exercise bicycles called 'bikes'.
And I do hear you about this trend with ebikes. But the market drives the manufacturers to supply what people want. It appears these types of 'bikes' (or non-bikes) are what a significant portion of the consumers want.
In my area, I don't feel they are giving the community a bad name. I do see kids sometimes exhibiting behaviour that should probably be curtailed. But that situation existed before ebikes were even a thing.
gatoStephen@reddit
They're illegal in the UK. You have to pedal to get anywhere.
Fearless-Sandwich823@reddit
Here in Korea, they have classifications. My ebike tops out at 24kph on the throttle. Anything faster requires a license to operate, think driver's license. The standing scooters seem to be able to go a bit faster, but not by too much.
tob007@reddit
Lots of mopeds got souped up too, its just natural progression of things.
I was hoping the cargo segment was going to flourish more than it did. It really makes sense on paper to be able to replace the car to do groceries etc... but I feel like all the models are kinda underpowered and fragile to do a proper weekly shop for a family of 4.
criggie_@reddit
Most western countries have one or more of - power limit on motor or speed limit on assistance so it cuts out above a certain point or bans manual throttles so you have to pedal to get any assist.
I have a former postie ebike and there is a throttle button but it only goes 6 km/h. Utterly pointless for most people. Mine also stops assisting at 25 km/h OR if you coast/stop pedalling.
I ride faster on almost any other bike, but its good for towing a trailer.
Just-Smart-Enough@reddit
Same thing that happened to the "bike" in dirtbike... It's an ambiguous term. If you're looking for a class compliant electric assist bicycle, ask for that.
Arkitakama@reddit
Also "bike" in motorbike
Fair_Suspect8866@reddit
Basically the UK / EU EAPC laws then?
Which is absolutely fine if your attitude is that ebikes are bicycles. Other parts of the world are very confused on this.