What's the point of mid-drive city bikes?
Posted by InfluenceEfficient77@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 34 comments
Is there any reason for buying a mid drive city bike? Like a commuter shaped bike with a middrive and either a chain or a belt
I understand there's some marginal gain with less drag, especially when pedaling and not under power.
The real benefit of mid drive is going up or down hills, but the grade at which roads are built should rarely be too steep for a hub bike
Also for the price of the mid-drive you can probably just get a hub with a good regen controller, and have far more range
The mids are also more expensive and more likely to get stolen
I guess there's some benefit of easily being able to swap tubes or tires or do maintenance. If can be a pain in the ass removing a hub drive if they don't have a connector
Exciting-Peak70@reddit
You realize not all cities are flat?
sniezhko@reddit
This is the premium segment. These bikes are said to offer a more natural ride. What’s more, mid-drive e-bikes now deliver up to 80 Nm of torque, which is handy when you need to carry a child or a load.https://www.tenways.com/products/ago-compact-performance
HovercraftOne2275@reddit
Several at or over 100nm now.
chrispark70@reddit
Both will be less at the wheel after going through a bicycle overdrive gearing. Underdrive granny gears are most commonly found on mountain bikes.
Also, electric torque numbers are often pointless. Torque is at its max when the shaft is only slightly moving. It's not like they can put out 100nm at 4000RPM.
chrispark70@reddit
Mid drives really only allow you to go faster as long as you have the power. A lot of hub drives top out at a given RPM that won't be as fast as the power could make it go. Since most gears on a bicycle drive line are overdrive gears, the RPM won't be as big an issue with mid drives.
They derive no benefit to hill climbing by going through your drive train unless you have a bike with under-drive granny gears.
electricbikerider1@reddit
Mid drive bikes have a more linear uptake and there's nearly no delay once you start pedalling, so you can start on a hill and it won't be a struggle. Well that's been my experience between riding both styles
stormdelta@reddit
Delay is a factor of controller and software, not motor type.
I have a direct hub with a torque sensor and FOC controller, if anything the response is lower latency than many mid drives I’ve ridden
electricbikerider1@reddit
Thank you for that information, lots to look at . Like I said it was just my experience, I thought it might be more to do with torque sensors , once again thank you , I like to learn
stormdelta@reddit
To be fair a lot of hub setups are cheaper with lower end software/controllers, so it's not surprising that people often end up associating them with cadence sensors or laggy response curves.
lee1026@reddit
Europeans are limited to 250 watts. Compliant hubs are pretty weak (you only get the full power at a high rpm).
So this means that you want to operate at near peak rpm at all times, which means gears. And the way that you do gears is to use a mid drive.
The big bike makers sell world wide, and want to sell the same bike world wide. So you see euro spec bikes in the US.
ihavenoideia@reddit
"The real benefit of mid drive is going up or down hills, but the grade at which roads are built should rarely be too steep for a hub bike"
Disagrees in any major city in Portugal except for some coastal cities almost built in the water..
Ur-in-a-tor@reddit
Heh Lisboa puts any ebike's motor to a proper test 😄 I was amazed to see an ebike with a throttle casually and seemingly effortlessly climbing to Graça almost a decade ago, I still do not know what kind of a devilish motor the bike used considering how new the ebike tech is.
HovercraftOne2275@reddit
I have an ebike that is 15 years old. And it wasn't "new" then.
mataliandy@reddit
Disagrees in Vt, too.
HovercraftOne2275@reddit
You are mostly correct. The advantage climbing has to be experienced to be believed. Mid drive bike will CLIMB like you can't imagine. But that is most of the advantage. The rest is mostly the better "bike quality" of the setup. Most expensive E bikes come with mid drives. Torque sensors keep you working to get power. No kicking back and letting the motor do all the work. But yeh, for MUP and such, a hub is just as effective and essentially simpler.
mataliandy@reddit
Some people prefer the way mid-drive pedaling feels.
Fit-Macaroon5559@reddit
Mid -drives are more durable!
stormdelta@reddit
Not compared to a direct drive hub. They have downsides, but they’re unquestionably more durable with almost no moving parts beyond the motor itself
linuxturtle@reddit
[citation needed]
ur_ynome@reddit
I hated changing tires with my Hub motor, plus broken spokes and all that weight in the rear. With the mid drive I can take off fast from lights, it feels very natural, and if something goes wrong, pedaling home isn't a big deal. The only benefit I found with having a rear hub was better traction in the winter.
stormdelta@reddit
Broken spokes should basically never happen on a properly built wheel. This is a problem with sketchy cheap bikes, not hun motors generally.
Ohm_Slaw_@reddit
>> The real benefit of mid drive is going up or down hills, but the grade at which roads are built should rarely be too steep for a hub bike
You certainly don't live in my part of the world.
Razrgrrl@reddit
My hub drive bike was heavy, unwieldy, and cumbersome. I am a bike commuter going from a suburban area to an urban area and regularly face large steep hills. The city I commute in and out of is known for incredibly steep hills.
I switched to a mid drive and got a compact bike that is more nimble, and capable of carrying a lot more cargo. It’s much easier to load onto elevators and the train. I can even get it into our car! It feels more natural to ride and isn’t a struggle to get it up hills. It’s compact with great torque.
My giant and heavy class 2 had not great brakes, and it was not agile/nimble. It frankly felt less safe, especially on steep descents. It was hard to wrestle the thing in and out of tight spaces. It was too big for bike lockers and a struggle to fit in elevators and onto the train. It was impossible for me to fix a back tire flat, it was so big and heavy, flipping it over wasn’t an option because of the frame shape. Basically a simple fix required heavy duty equipment. I had to get new brake pads and get the brakes tightened frequently. I started taking a (scary for different reasons) detour to avoid a giant hill on my normal route.
My new class 3 has excellent brakes. My regular commute has around 1,200-1,500 feet off elevation gain, and the same amount of descent. That was honestly not great on my class 3. It was so clunky and heavy and the brakes were not up to the task. It’s a breeze and actually fun on my class 3. ;)
linuxturtle@reddit
A mid-drive is more balanced, and feels more like an analog bike, and if you have rear suspension, will be much more responsive over bumps due to vastly lighter rear wheel weight. They also tend to be somewhat lighter overall. With all of that though, you're absolutely right that a good hub drive is great for pavement riding, and in some ways superior to mid-drive (if your chain or freehub/freewheel breaks, you can still use the motor to get home, for example). Hub drives are also a *lot* easier on the drivetrain, as the only torque going through the chain/cassette is the torque you apply with the pedals. The motor torque goes directly into the rear wheel, whereas on a mid-drive, both your pedal torque and the motor torque is going through the drivetrain. I ride a mid-drive eMTB, but if you're tooling around on pavement, and don't care much about aesthetics, front-rear balance, wheel weight or overall weight, I think a hub drive bike can be superior to mid-drive.
tantalor@reddit
My city is nothing but hills (Pittsburgh)
sanjuro_kurosawa@reddit
Tell me you don't live in San Francisco or Pittsburgh without saying so.
radfordra1@reddit
You’ve never been to WV apparently…
Ur-in-a-tor@reddit
My city/Urban ebike, some 15kg and with the torque sensor, uses a rear hub motor that is 250W and 43Nm. There is no climb in my area that would force me to stand up when ascending. The bike is delightfully easy to pedal when the motor disengages, practically frictionless.
Personally I associate mid-drive city ebikes with morbidly obese weight and questionable quality and tech. They rock on eMTB but in cities nah.
Full-Part2427@reddit
It feels like a regular bike when you yank the battery. Hub drives your tire is heavy af aways
AntEaterApocalypse@reddit
I'm an urban rider and went from a torque-sensing hub motor to a middrive system.
Biggest benefit is the motor being able to leverage your gears for more torque. Drop it into the lowest gear and turn up the assist and it just cruises up hills with ease. I also like how much cleaner and simpler the back end is. Doing rear wheel work on a wheel with a hub motor is just a pain in the ass so having a normal bike in the back is appreciated. They are also noticeably lighter and more compact with the weight being down low near your feet.
It's a good upgrade if you can afford it but not a requirement. I do consider torque sensors to be 100% hard requirement though. I cannot stand cadence sensors and I consider them to be an awful, ancient technology that has no place on a modern ebike. Torque sensing systems feel more natural, leverage your pedalling better, and are safer.
Difficultsleeper@reddit
Mid drives can be lighter. Sub 50 lbs with 750 wh battery is nice. They're not typically more efficient than a good AKM hub motor. They don't typically come with throttles. It's easier to repair rear flats. They do typically come with better part specs. I'm interested to see if DJI produces a commuter specific motor. 85 nm with 750 peak watts. The 60 nm Bosch motors are pretty underwhelming for the price.
JuniorKey9708@reddit
Feels better to ride, find to shift through gears, especially with a throttle.
Scavenge101@reddit
I mean there are a few advantages but it all comes with how much you're willing to spend. Most of what I see why they're bought is because mid-drives are WAY more battery efficient because of how effectively your own pedaling takes pressure off the motor. Adding another 2 levers via chain and drivetrain makes hub motors about 30% less efficient for straight bike riding like that.
Mid-drives also go bad in a much more predictable way than hub motors do. The very worst thing a hub motor can do is blow your tire apart. A lot needs to go wrong for that to happen, but there's literally no danger of that with a mid-drive since it doesn't apply torque directly to your wheel spokes and rim. The worst that can happen with a mid drive is you can't pedal anymore. Granted, the tradeoff for that is mids require a lot more maintenance.
If your budget is like a grand and you can get either/or, you really can't go wrong with either. Just keep up on your maintenance.
trevor_plantaginous@reddit
Mid drives have a better weight to power ratio. Comparing say a specialized turbo Vado 4 vs an Aventon level 3 (same generation of bikes).
Turbo Vado is about 55 lbs, range is 90 miles (it really is, specialized is pretty honest on ranges), and it delivers 70nm torque.
Aventon level 3 is 68lbs, 70 miles range (it’s a gross exaggeration), and 60nm torque on a much heavier bike.
750w+ hub drives need BIG/heavy batteries. Mid drives are much more efficient.
In general mid drives have a much better ride feel BUT hubs keep getting better and better with the torque sensors. Benefit of hub is a throttle - there are mids that have throttle but it destroys your chain/cassette. Hubs spin the wheel on throttle mids turn the chain.
Overall hubs keep getting better and better. There was a time where mids were FAR superior but I think that gap is starting to narrow.