Are y’all getting a lot of overly confident bad candidates?
Posted by ninetofivedev@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 206 comments
Quick backstory.
My peer was moved into another org and I became responsible for all hiring for my team and a new team we’re spinning up.
First I’ll say that I think we got lucky, the first two candidates we got were perfect fits.
However, from my perspective, (small sample size) we’ve had to deal with a large number of candidates who are very confident, and honestly not that impressive otherwise.
Listen. You should show confidence in your interview. It’s definitely something you don’t want to be lacking.
The last 3 candidates I interviewed were all very smug, contradicted themselves, claimed very deep understanding of things like kubernetes and AWS but didn’t know basic things like service accounts and security groups. Would explain high level concepts and hand wave away the technical details. Like auto scaling without explaining how to handle configuring it, how you would prevent node disruption, etc.
This is for staff level position. All the candidates have at least 8-10 years of experience, some even more.
Another thing that you just shouldn’t do, these guys took the opportunity to vent about AI in the interview.
Listen, it’s fine to hold those opinions, but keep it on Reddit. I get it, you want to know to what extent our company is pushing AI adoption, but having a morale debate about AI in an interview shows lack of situational awareness.
nyckulak@reddit
A lot of people work for companies that don’t really need to scale so they never face these issues. Or maybe they work at a bigger company where there’s a bunch of internal teams that work on the hard parts while all they do is maintain some dashboards.
Mike312@reddit
I worked on a team, on paper, we had 7 guys doing AWS deployments all day long.
But we had an outside contractor handle our initial setup, including AWS, Docker containers, dev containers, github CI/CD. We modified the container twice in 4 years.
After I was laid off, I decided to duplicate that setup at home, figured "I've been using this for 4 years, I know it". Turns out I didn't know shit. Took me 2 weeks of fucking around with it casually to get the container/deployment stack I wanted that actually worked.
Before that, team of 6, I was the only one who knew how to configure Apache and .htacess; nobody else had touched anything deeper than the routing tables in the framework, which I could teach any idiot in 5 minutes.
For a lot of devs, most have never (nor will ever) deal with deep config stuff. They might have used some systems for a decade, but only been brought on mid- to late-project or for maintenance.
superide@reddit
Heh, even the deployment stuff you described is out of my league with my experience. I seldom had to deal with AWS or CI/CD. I only write code and push it to staging now. On the other hand I'd feel at home with Apache .htaccess configs.
Sw429@reddit
This is spot on. It leads to people who know the theory behind what's possible, but have never actually done it. In reality, I think the number of people who have actually done the hard parts is a very small number.
That also doesn't mean the candidates wouldn't be able to do it. You just need to figure out a better way to tell the difference, I guess.
Groove-Theory@reddit
Ok, story time.
During my second job search as still a junior, I thought I knew SQL. But I never did stored procedures. I interviewed for a company where this 50 year old grizzled greybeard lead dev took me to his computer and showed me 100s of stored procedures with business logic (because the database was doing a lot of heavy lifting due to incredible real-time demands for the product). I froze and said I never done one of these. He then asked me what language I was comfortable with. I said Javascript. In that moment, he re-wrote one of the stored procedures into pseudo-Javascript, and then asked me to read it and tell me what it does. I did. Then he said "great now you know stored procedures, can you guess what this second one does". Then I read that. Then he asked me "ok so let's say I need now a stored procedure to do X. Can you guess how we can write that"? And after some time I did it.
In that interview, the greybeard dev taught me stored procedures. And I got the job
-----
Now for my rant.
Honestly most interviewers are equal as the interviewees really in terms of capability. I mean do we think the OP, if they had to get another job, is just going to demolish every interview they face for staff+? Like it's just easy for them to grab a job off the job tree?
Absolutely not. Every company you interview for always has home field advantage of what they built and how they built it. It's more uncommon than not that the interviewee will be a perfect fit for what the company and team has already built and scaled and such.
"Scaling" is not some linear process of skills, and SWE encompasses a wide vast array of necessary technical and non-technical skills and strategies and paradigms to do so. Even the skill of knowing when NOT to scale.
Ok so maybe the OP's example they don't know much about security groups. Ok, explain it to them in simple terms, give them a theoretical example of how they work, then ask them "so knowing what you know how, how do you think you'd apply it to X". Boom now you can pick their brain more.
I think we all forget how stupid we all will become on the other side of the interview table when it's our turn once again
Daktic@reddit
Great story and a great lesson of humility.
I’ve had brilliant moments and I’ve had idiotic moments. Sometimes back to back.
Which one I’ll have in an interview is a combination of luck and general preparedness and how my eggs cooked for breakfast.
I’ve never walked into a job sure I was capable. You learn and you get better.
CaitAndaCat@reddit
Humility is an amazing dev feature. Helps you and everyone around you to grow and be human
No_Shine1476@reddit
It'd be greatly beneficial for everyone if teaching the inexperienced became more commonplace, but the market and economy seem to have other plans.
ings0c@reddit
I miss teaching juniors. We have none now, and my time is mostly spent delivering instead of knowledge transfer 😔
We did hire one a while back and he was not a good learner.
Visual_Collection963@reddit
The interviewer reeks of pompousness. I’ve worked in the industry for a very long time with some of the brightest people, and quite a few bullies. Technology work requires decent maths and interest, and that interest can fluctuate; that’s where the team comes in.
It’s not overly complicated. We’re not neurosurgeons or astronomers, what can and cannot be done is largely finite and well understood. With AI in the mix, some of the bullies seem jittery, which is probably a good thing.
I’d say - calm down and choose a kind, level-headed person with a healthy mindset, they’ll contribute.
d0rkprincess@reddit
Tbf I’ve found that the interviewers prefer people who just admit they don’t know something rather than trying to BS their way through. During my interviews for all the jobs I’ve had, I’ve only put stuff on my CV I could actually comfortably talk about, and when they asked about other things, I pretty much told them I’ve never seen/worked with that, but I have played around with it when prepping for the interview (which I did) and then talked about all the instances when I’ve had to learn new stack on the job.
Basically, my point is, interviewers know when you’re BS-ing, and most companies would rather work with someone that asks for help when they need it, rather than someone who tries to pretend they know everything.
ericmutta@reddit
Long live the Grizzled Greybeard!
Fast_Hovercraft_7380@reddit
I bet you most of the OPs here in this sub would bomb and get cooked when they get interviewed themselves.
lurco_purgo@reddit
What a fantastic and eye-opening comment - thanks for this!
-Nocx-@reddit
You are really not doing your flair justice with such well written and nuanced takes.
zuilli@reddit
This is me but I'm a devops rather than a dev so I work with changing tools constantly, I know a lot of the high level stuff but I suck at the nitty gritty because I see that as disposible knowledge.
Why would I commit to memory every single detail on how to do one of dozens of processes when it might have changed when I need it again? I'll have to check the documentation anyway.
Having said that I'm great at finding information and solutions I need to accomplish my tasks, I've never found a job I couldn't accomplish with some studying and dev time.
caboosetp@reddit
The important part in an interview is explaining that instead of handwaiving it away. Admiting you don't know something and how you'd address that lack of knowledge is huge. talking circles without addressing the question to pretend you know it is bad.
professor_jeffjeff@reddit
I think the important part anyway is knowing that something is possible and where to find the details about how to do it rather than knowing every single last little detail about the tech. For example, in AWS if you want cloudtrail to log to a single bucket automatically for every account in your organization, you can set up an organization cloudtrail and give it a bucket ARN to write into. The bucket needs a specific resource policy on it and I can't remember exactly what that needs to be, but cloudtrail will write as a specific principle and there's an IAM conditional you can use that will match the organization ID of the principle so you can set that to your organization and even when new accounts are created it'll just magically work. Now what's the conditional and what actual value does it take? I don't fucking remember, look it up. Are there ways to configure the key prefix per account in an organization cloudtrail? Maybe, I'd have to check but finding the documentation on that would be trivially easy so why would I ever bother to memorize that? Maybe if I'd configured it yesterday then I'd know the details, but realistically I configured Terraform to do that for me like 5 years ago and I haven't bothered to touch it since then because nothing has changed and it still works so why mess with it if it still works and is easy to manage?
This is why it was always a bit "fun" to do the systems design part of the interview loop for my teams, and a large part of why that question was always asked by one of the staff+ engineers in the org. It's easy for us to determine if someone is talking out of their ass or if they actually know what they're doing but just can't remember the exact details.
HarmlessSponge@reddit
Same boat here. Not that I can't learn or re-learn it, but a lot of areas aren't an every day thing, it's "shit what did I put in place for the hub and spoke model DNS resolution 3 years ago, I'll go read the docs". Couple that with the fact that anything that no one else touches or if another team gets wiped, we end up looking after it. Our remit is broad.
VP-of-Vibes@reddit
Yeah, and AI added a second layer on top of that. The sheltered-environment problem has always been real. What's changed is that AI makes it possible to articulate solutions to problems you've never solved. The confidence was always there in this cohort. Now it comes with vocabulary that sounds like depth.
oupablo@reddit
100% this. I have an understanding of these things from working at small startups, but my experience at a larger company had a team that managed things like accounts, k8s clusters, networking, VPCs, and IAM. The only thing you really needed to be aware of is which cluster you were deploying to and which service role you needed.
I've found this duplicity aggravating. Managers fawn ex FAANG engineers, to the extent that I've had CEOs and CTOs pushing to hire mostly from people with those companies on their resume. Then you get them in and they are basically like "I worked on an internal java tool that served 0.2QPS with a manual deployment process." There are tons of brilliant people working at this company but there are also hordes of people that would struggle at your standard small company where the staff level engineer is the entirety of the SRE and DevOps for their team, if not the whole company. You just have to be careful that when you're getting one of these people that they're not "my way or the highway" type people and that they actually followed industry standard practices.
dezalator@reddit
They shouldn't claim to know these things then
clickrush@reddit
When a company doesn’t need the scale, why are they using stuff like kubernetes or autoscaling in the first place?
allllusernamestaken@reddit
you don't need the scale today.
My favorite example of this is Charles Schwab. During early days of COVID, everyone was working from home and started trading stocks much more frequently. Their old COBOL-powered mainframe literally could not scale to support all the new trade volume and it shit the bed multiple times.
The company was ultimately put on a path to rebuilding all of their legacy infrastructure to move to the cloud, containerized everything, and start to decommission their 70,000 virtual machines.
Snipen543@reddit
...because kubernetes makes deployments way easier to deploy? The initial setup takes a while to work out but once done you can shift infra and not care, install in a new env can be done in 10 mins and you know it'll work the same
wizzward0@reddit
Because it still fits the use case and looks good on resume. Can’t even blame them
Specific_Ocelot_4132@reddit
Plus, a lot of companies interview as if having experience with these things is a requirement when it really isn’t. So we’ve created a system where candidates are required to bluff about having experience with things they probably won’t even use if hired for the job they’re interviewing for.
Hefty-Strawberry-762@reddit
I don't understand the question. You didn't hire them, isn't that sufficiently dealing with them? Do you want ways to make them feel bad and cry for being incompetent or something?
No_Rise_7733@reddit
Been interviewing a lot lately. Bootcampers getting jobs at google because they leetcoded are the top of the pile of overconfident devs. A good dev can work with other people, communicate, understand complex business problems and user needs as well as understanding the code - a lot of people aren’t cut out for this job and think they are because they landed FANG jobs in 2021.
Visual_Collection963@reddit
The interviewer reeks of pompousness. I’ve worked in the industry for a very long time with some of the brightest people, and quite a few bullies. Technology work requires decent maths and interest, and that interest can fluctuate; that’s where the team comes in.
It’s not overly complicated. We’re not neurosurgeons or astronomers, what can and cannot be done is largely finite and well understood. With AI in the mix, some of the bullies seem jittery, which is probably a good thing.
I’d say - calm down and choose a kind, level-headed person with a healthy mindset, they’ll contribute.
yad76@reddit
No offense, but I think you are the problem here.
I suspect you work for one of those companies where staff+ is title inflation that just means "Senior with a lot of years who we don't want to leave" rather than meaning someone who truly operates at that level and understands it. That lands you in awkward spots like this where you have true staff engineers coming in and communicating at that level but you are like "but bro didn't even talk about configuring autoscaling at AWS". Staff is by definition supposed to be about driving technical direction, making cross team/organization wide impact, solving big problems at high levels, etc..
Discussing AWS autoscaling nuances in an interview for a staff level position seems wild to me (unless MAYBE this is specifically a Dev Ops staff engineer position but even then...). I'm not going to say that I'm never digging into AWS configuration or stuff like that as a staff engineer, but companies tend to have Dev Ops/Infrastructure tends that manage that day to day so that people like staff engineers can stay focused on the bigger organization level problems. It makes me wonder if you work for a smaller organization where they aren't quite ready for a meaningful staff level role but decided to throw that title in because everyone else is doing it.
Again, no offense to you. Your career seems to be doing well doing what you are doing. I'm just calling out what I see as the issue here.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
My title is actually noble gentleman of developer operations.
I’m just going to say it: these people I’m talking about, you wouldn’t hire them either.
So I guess we’re both the problem, according to you.
Proper_Product_3376@reddit
I'm currently interviewing for Staff Platform Eng. I'm happy to hear OP is asking about k8s in interviews. I'd be glad to be asked more about k8s and cloud infra (my skillset as a platform eng) and less Leetcode or logic puzzles.
DowntownLizard@reddit
I feel like its okay to not know everything about the tech being used. Not everyones experience is going to perfectly overlap and to me it shouldn't have to. My answer might be I don't know about the specifics because I havn't implemented that before but I would go learn everything I possibly can about it. Acting like you know when you don't is the red flag. Not knowing the answer and then finding it is literally the main skill of an engineer.
I feel like there's some extreme gatekeeping going on where you have to perfectly overlap the tech stack and have worked on those types of problems before. That just feels so backwards to me. You wanna know how knowledgeable someone is then ask them to go very deep on a subject that they know well and see where the bottom is. I don't think you are learning anything about someone by being mad they don't have a deep understanding of a topic that you picked and they may never have worked on before.
Any engineer worth their salt could learn anything. I want the engineer that has potential and a high ceiling not someone who just happened to work for a company doing the exact things we are.
SoulTrack@reddit
This gatekeeping is going on EVERYWHERE. I've been disqualified for a job because I didn't know Angular 16, and only had experience with Angular 1.x and React 19.
pheonixblade9@reddit
I got rejected for a position because I didn't have significant experience in AWS and Python. Notoriously difficult technologies to learn, those.
Ignoring the fact that I have worked on Azure and GCP (like, at microsoft and google) and Meta 😂
Like... I've written code in the Meta ads hot path, you really think I can't figure out EC2?
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
The other candidate might have just been a better fit.
People need to realize that sometimes, on paper, you're just objectively not as good as the other guy they plan on hiring.
pheonixblade9@reddit
maybe, but the point is that my experience literally building clouds is probably more relevant than most people's experience using AWS. it's HR drones that don't know shit about fuck.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
Maybe, but also we're all biased in these situations.
I just try to never take these situations personal. I interviewed for a position I was excited for and thought was a perfect fit.
I was bummed to not receive an offer, I think I could have provided a ton of value.
Also when I was 25, Natalie Portman didn't realize this, but I would have been the perfect husband.
She never returned my call. She doesn't know what she missed out on.
pheonixblade9@reddit
I'm not sure what your point is. I've done many dozens of interviews and conducted several hundred myself. I've got a decade and a half of high quality experience, knowledge in one specific language is basically irrelevant - I have learned much more difficult things than Python in order to do my job in very short periods of time.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I think in this specific example, the python thing was just a scapegoat.
I think in reality, it was something else out of your control, and they had to find something they could justify and assign blame to you.
IE, I just interviewed two candidates. I liked them both. I liked one more than the other. Now we had room for 2 positions, so it was fine. But if I had to choose between 1 or the other, I'm just going with my gut.
There is a reason we don't give feedback to our candidates. Most of the time, it's nothing you did. Just wrong place wrong time.
pheonixblade9@reddit
in this case, they didn't even interview me 😂
I think we're talking past each other. trust me, I understand that things happen behind the scene.
in this case, it was an HR person who had a checklist that they needed to check, and they probably found somebody who had those two boxes checked. the silly part is that it's highly likely that I'm far more qualified as a whole than the person they hired, given my experience, I just didn't have those boxes checked.
Kinda like that guy who got rejected for not enough FastAPI experience when he was the creator of it, or the guy who made homebrew that Google rejected (not that I'm at that level, but you get the idea)
d0rkprincess@reddit
It still surprises me that that so many ads I see specify experience with AWS as a requirement, but then go “experience with at least one of: “ and then proceed to list every single language ever in existence.
Like I might end up blankly staring at their codebase written in C, but thank god I have AWS experience over Azure.
alternatex0@reddit
The only similarity between Angular 1.6 and Angular 2+ is in the name. That said, you obviously had JS framework experience, but at the end of the day if you didn't know Angular 2+ and the other candidate did, then it's not really gatekeeping.
SoulTrack@reddit
In general though, it's a silly thing to be hung up on when there are way more things that go into software engineering than what libraries are used.
Ok-Pace-8772@reddit
Absolutely. I know bazilion stuff. I can't possibly know everything in detail but if I have to I know what to search for and imo that's more important. Today you know kubernetes auto scaling tomorrow you gotta autoscale cloud formation or some shit.
People that know too much details basically didn't have to deal with as much breath and are gatekeeping due to a misunderstood sense of superiority.
somebunnny@reddit
Need Gazillion stuff. No hire.
Sea-Us-RTO@reddit
40 years experience with Claude, entry level salary
somebunnny@reddit
Pleas design and implement, including a full test suite, this entire new feature we’ll be shipping for your take home coding assessment.
ericmutta@reddit
Absolutely. By design, the number of things you don't know is always larger (and ever expanding) than the number of things you don't know. Research precedes development (even in the phrase "research and development").
pheonixblade9@reddit
yep, knowing the high level concepts well enough to know the right tools to use and the things to learn is the skill. there's too much out there, nobody could know everything.
slonermike@reddit
I had a FAANG interview recently where they explicitly asked me NOT to use any frameworks, so we could validate fundamentals, then talk about what frameworks might gain us. I liked that model a lot.
drahgon@reddit
Bingo
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit
OP's examples aren't gatekeeping. Someone telling you they know AWS and then not knowing what a security group is is like saying "yeah I know React" and then not knowing what an npm package is. It's not a detail, it's so basic that not knowing it means you're either overconfident, exaggerating or lying about your level of experience in that area.
eraserhd@reddit
They are looking for a staff-level engineer.
What’s most important about a staff level engineer?
….
iegdev@reddit
I’ve spent the last 4 years working in AWS and never once touched security groups. Do I know what they are? Yes. Do I know how to set one up? No. Why? Because we had a cloud ops team and CI/CD pipeline that handled all that stuff. Yeah, that may be basic stuff but when you’re working on a large application with lots of moving parts it’s perfectly reasonable to not touch some areas
The bigger question is: could I figure it out? Yes.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit
If you have a cloud ops team then you're not working in AWS. That's like saying "I work on engines" then getting indignant at someone expecting you to know how to change an oil filter because you just meant you drive to work.
elliottcable@reddit
No, it’s more like saying “I work on engines” and then not knowing how to change an oil filter on your Corolla with your bare hands because you’ve a PhD in materials-science and work at MBG adapting novel alloying components into their high-performance manufacturing process.
You absolutely work on engines, and that’s absolutely relevant to being hired to work on engines, and it still absolutely does not mean you know every little minutiae about any subtask that may be related to engines.
However, do you think that person with documented experience working in that hybrid mechanical-engineering/matsci setting could learn in an afternoon to change the oil on one of the experimental models, if that was necessary for a test he was running? Yes, absolutely.
My point here is one so, so many people have made in this thread, but a few particularly blockheaded posters seem to be struggling with:
Software is broad.
It is occasionally the case that narrow hiring is valuable and the correct choice; but it is vanishingly rare. (Bluntly, the situations where that might be the correct choice are almost always better served by a contractor.) Instead, most of the time, hiring well boils down to trying to deduce how someone learns, for which purpose “what they’ve already learned” is just a poor proxy to interrogate their internal state.
tl;dr if your reaction to ‘hm, the candidate doesn’t know what security groups are’ isn’t ’okay, let’s figure out something that’s better matched to his past experience to explore’, I, personally, strongly suspect you’re doing a poor job of hunting down the high-quality talent.
iegdev@reddit
Yeah, okay dude. I must have been logging into Azure every day then
political_homeless@reddit
I know one thing: that I know nothing
fuckoholic@reddit
But if you know that you know nothing, then you at least know that one thing, which means that you do not not know nothing.
battlebotbert@reddit
Is that you Jon Snow?
zirouk@reddit
This is how it should be but it’s difficult to have that mindset when interviewing, because often times interviews are treated as knowledge measuring exercises, rather than exercises in humility.
Old-Television-2189@reddit
Chill
Stephonovich@reddit
If you’re interviewing for a Staff role on a Platform Engineering team, I actually do expect you to know quite a bit about the tech being used, and to demonstrate the capacity to easily pick up any missing info. How else are you going to be able to push back on bad ideas from the people who you’re going to be guiding?
It’s also not like K8s is some esoteric thing that has nothing similar that exists: it’s a container orchestrator. If you had deep knowledge of Nomad, I probably wouldn’t mind, as long as you could map the knowledge onto K8s, which is pretty easy to quickly check in an interview.
DowntownLizard@reddit
I feel like it depends on what you want in your staff. There are so many things that will make you a value multiplier and its not always being the expert. I feel like coordinating and owning solutions doesn't mean you have to be the technical expert and a lot of times it means seeking out opinions from those who know the systems better than you. Especially right away in an unfamiliar environment. Absorb knowledge and use your skills to solve the toughest problems and elevate your teams in whatever way you know how. I've met people that are very good at specific things and know way more than me that would be awful as even a mentor. I would want their opinion but they wouldn't be the one to lead the charge.
I think there is more nuance than who knows all of the things about the exact tech and situation when you are determining who will be a great fit for the role
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
In this role, you need to be the technical expert. You sound like you’re describing a project manager.
DowntownLizard@reddit
No way project managers are just PowerPoint merchants. Maybe know what a real leader looks like
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
Sound like you’ve just had bad PMs.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
To be clear. These are not topics that I picked. I conducted the interview. I had them discuss a project they had worked on that they felt demonstrated skills for the position they were applying for and then I asked them probing questions about their claims.
They couldn’t explain it.
I’m not gatekeeping. You’re strawmanning.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
To be clear, I’m not asking trivia questions.
We’re talking through how to implement something and then when I ask “what did you use to solve that”, they don’t have the answer.
Which to means they’re lying about actually doing it they just know the high level concepts.
I would expect an engineer who claims they implemented autoscaling in kubernetes to know about karpenter or cluster autoscaler, to describe how those get implemented, to either explain a fargate solution or how they setup nodegroups.
When discussing how they implement a multi-account AWS setup with terraform, I expect them to understand the concept of backend state and how terraform manages resources and detects drift.
Ok-Pace-8772@reddit
Listen man. I've autoscaled a few clusters. I have clusters that have been running for more than an year and I've basically forgotten they exist. So I've configured them relatively alright.
I cannot right now cite you the details of cluster autoscaler. If I had a 5 minute refresher sure. But I've been dealing with so many other things in the meantime I have not switched gears.
If you come asking me out of the blue you'll say I am lying on my resume. And you'd be very wrong.
cscareer_student_@reddit
Yeah I think OP saved those candidates from working at a place with poor engineering culture
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
You probably wouldn't be a good fit for this role and that's ok.
or maybe you would if you had other strong suits. Don't come to the interview telling me you're responsible for migrating the org from EC2 instances to kubernetes without knowing AWS or K8s at 1 layer deeper than the tippy top of the ice berg.
vladisov@reddit
While I don't necessarily think you're wrong in your post and those examples exist, I do think you don't understand what staff engineer role means.
And it isn't necessarily a walking encyclopedia who knows all the intricacies of specific systems (freaking auto-scaler and so on).
A lot of staff roles are about breadth of work, unblocking, scaling and so on and they often move from one thing to another, so remembering a niche thing that they moved a while ago from doesn't not necessarily mean they're lying.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I said staff level positions. They're for platform engineer roles. People hyperfocusing on my examples are missing the point and getting mad about the wrong things.
I could have made it more clear as well, but also draw your own conclusions I guess.
FreeFortuna@reddit
There’s a certain irony in this statement, since it’s basically what people are trying to tell you about your interview process. Missing the forest for the trees.
janyk@reddit
Sounds like trivia questions to me
lokaaarrr@reddit
I just want people to be honest, both in the interview, and in the office. People who pretend (or worse, dunning kruger) to know way more than they do really mess up teams/projects.
If you come in and say you are a top expert in X, you better know it. And you better hope I had not spent 10 years on the team that built that technology.
Some-btc-name@reddit
People get desperate. They have a family to feed. I don't personally do this but if you think for a second that most people won't lie or cheat their way to a job especially in this market because they might hurt your teams cadence your kidding yourself.
lokaaarrr@reddit
IME doing hundreds of interviews for these roles, they are not being intentionally deceptive. They just don’t know what they don’t know. They often seem like nice people.
curious_corn@reddit
Damn, nailed it
sippin-jesus-juice@reddit
IMO you could be focused on a very specific part of your stack while waving away experience elsewhere
Infra is managed by another team at most orgs I’ve been in. I have experience with AWS, but solely from startups where we wear many hats. If I leaned on my FAANG or Fortune 50 experience, it would have minimal AWS because our infra, ci/cd and everything else was handled by a downstream team.
That’s not to say the candidates weren’t overly cocky, but if they knew the high level concepts, finding the technical docs when needed is within the realm of possibility and not unusual
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
This role is for a platform engineer, so if it’s managed by another org, you’re not a fit for the position.
That isn’t the problem in my case. They’re actively describing their role on those teams and then unable to talk specifics.
SolidDeveloper@reddit
> This role is for a platform engineer, so if it’s managed by another org, you’re not a fit for the position.
Even so, a platform engineer can mean different things at different companies. For example, at my previous company, a Platform Engineer was someone who worked on the backend media management platform that several products used, however they didn't do any infrastructure work – we had an Infrastructure Team for that. The infra team were the ones to keep up our Kubernetes clusters, to deal with security groups, domain names, etc., whereas the platform team was developing software that ran on that infrastructure.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
This is the kind of thing only confusing for a tech recruiter.
A lot of terms have multiple meanings, and a lot of companies adopt terms for their products.
You'd have to be an idiot to think that would mean something to somebody outside of your company.
I worked on the platform team. I know that the platform means our core backend that powers our product. I also know that platform engineering, outside of our organization, means Developer experience and operations.
sippin-jesus-juice@reddit
Eh, completely fair then if it’s for a dev ops role.
Do their resumes claim to be have prior ops positions or just a generic “senior engineer” out of curiosity?
PattrimCauthon@reddit
Yeah you’ve echoed my thought process too haha. I was like uhh… I don’t know some of these and I have 10 yoe, but yeah platform engi should know this for sure
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
We have reqs for Staff Platform Engineers, Staff SWE for Internal Tools, DevOps engineers, SRE.
The most recent candidate claimed to be a lead platform engineer at his most recent role with a SWE background.
Ambitious-Garbage-73@reddit
the pattern I'm seeing on my end is separation between "confident about the concept" and "confident about the specifics." candidates can now get to concept-confidence way faster with AI prep, but when you drill into the specific trade-off or the specific failure mode, the confidence evaporates. interview rubrics that only probe concept-level will miss this. the fix is asking for a specific past incident and drilling into the decision path.
ilyas-inthe-cloud@reddit
So common in cloud interviews. I hire for my own teams and the number of people who can name every AWS service but cannot explain what a security group actually does is wild. My go-to move is asking them to walk through a real incident they debugged. The hand-wavy ones fall apart fast when you ask "ok but what exactly did you check first". People who have actually done the work give you specifics without being prompted.
tcpWalker@reddit
> The last 3 candidates I interviewed were all very smug, contradicted themselves, claimed very deep understanding of things like kubernetes and AWS but didn’t know basic things like service accounts and security groups. Would explain high level concepts and hand wave away the technical details. Like auto scaling without explaining how to handle configuring it, how you would prevent node disruption, etc.
So contraditions can reflect two or three issues. They may not know what they're doing, they may be realizing they are wrong, or they may be cheating and correcting an answer once AI gives it to them. I don't care if someone knows the details of every tool, even staff level. I do care if they can be detailed in lots of areas and detailed in the areas they claim expertise in.
tcpWalker@reddit
> having a morale debate about AI in an interview
A morale debate? Like how do you keep up the team's morale while adopting it?
AI moral or team management of ai use discussions can be great as one part of a culture fit or soft skill round, if you have time for it. Don't belong much in a technical round, just a little around ai tool use maybe.
Odd_Perspective3019@reddit
bro interview industry is brutal, it’s not rocket science hah, everyone can easily learn this stuff with AI, hire the guy and stop acting like you know more than them, you only know the small details cause you work on it everyday each company has a bazillion different ways of doing things it’s hard to predict in interview exactly what we need to know or how much to say or that we can just learn it they’re staff for a reason they definitely didn’t fake all the way up to staff you can fake L4-L5 sure but not that high, anyways people need to stop acting like it’s their money giving the guy a salary
Ready-Product@reddit
In my case. We have devops team that do scaling, security group, we just tell. These need these how scaling is needed etc. although I have sat near them and seen how they do it to learn. We are never allowed to touch it. But each service we can configure to certain extend. Like creating a lambda, creating layers. Setting up S3 config, but we can't create bucket. Only some changes i can do. The problem is since I am not doing hands off although I have seen it. I keep forgetting it.
tiajuanat@reddit
I got hundreds of tech interviews under my belt, and yeah I noticed it a lot back in 2019-2023. I'd estimate about 60% of candidates were overly confident, but not good enough for me to run the entire interview.
Now my company has gotten big enough, I have folks who pull resumes, do initial calls, and about 20 engineers qualified to do tech interviews, so I don't see it directly, but I hear about it all the time.
bdanmo@reddit
Me reading the headline: “it’s gonna be me”
Me reading the details: phew
Fine-Blackberry5306@reddit
that contradiction between confidence and skill is frustrating
bdanmo@reddit
Not knowing service accounts or security groups is wild
william_fontaine@reddit
TBH I started moving apps from on-prem to AWS a couple years ago, and I still can barely keep some of that stuff straight.
A lot of the AWS details are the kind of thing I never wanted to deal with. Some other team or group handled infra for the first 15 years of my career, and I liked not working it on it directly.
I'll pick up what I need to, but I can't wait for the day I retire and never have to think about this stuff again.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
You just miss being a junior.
william_fontaine@reddit
Nah, I was a senior back then too. But up until a couple years ago, nowhere I had worked required or even allowed developers to implement and maintain infra. We'd design it in conjunction with architects and dedicated infrastructure admins, but then they handled it from there.
crabby135@reddit
Haven’t had the privilege since I was a junior but I hear you, I also started my career with a dedicated DevOps/Infra team. They went away with layoffs, and my new org has an infra team but we’re still writing our own helm charts and managing our own deployments. That team mostly just handles standing up and maintaining our environments, but you’re responsible for managing your project’s resources.
I’ve been forced to know way more about AWS than I ever would have liked to.
bdanmo@reddit
I feel that. I’m dedicated devops/platform/sre/whatever. I honestly hate the infra side more often than not. Sometimes it’s cool. Sometimes it’s extremely not.
nsxwolf@reddit
First I’ve heard of them in 8 years of using Kubernetes.
Stephonovich@reddit
Dude, I interviewed at a company where the VPENG don’t know what availability zones were, or how they differed from regions. I thought I was being punk’d at first, but it quickly became apparent that he had little to no understanding of how cloud infra works. It’s not like he had a long background in strictly on-prem, either. He also proudly stated that he was the first to arrive in any incident, and that he would routinely rope in other executives.
I nope’d out of the loop (which was nearly done at that point anyway), and explained why.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
If you even considered the possibility that it's you, it's definitely not you.
ButchDeanCA@reddit
So this! lol
randomrsdude@reddit
Unfortunately I’ve seen a lot of advice going around that being overly confident and faking competency is something that impressed interviewers and is more likely to get you the job. I have a feeling that people might be trying to do that even if they might not naturally be like that.
Godunman@reddit
As an engineer, it is necessary to both be confident and competent. It’s a lot easier to prove the first one in interviews.
warm_kitchenette@reddit
I think it’s very tricky in practice. When you speak to a peer, who knows what you can do, you would typically be very frank: I only have superficial knowledge of kubernetes, I can do this or that. They know you can learn, like any engineer.
Those same admissions to a non-technical recruiter might get you politely rejected. And they might also be rejected by an actual engineer interviewing them, not because the skills are essential for the role, but because they are mandatory in their definition of what a backend engineer should know.
I worked with one founder who would not hire anyone who did not have a complete superset of his technical knowledge. Any gap was unacceptable. Unsurprisingly, it took him a very long time to fill any of his roles.
mpanase@reddit
To be fair, most of the "higher level" people I worked with were not technically competent. They were confident, good salesmen, (mostly) likeable, ...
mental-chaos@reddit
This reads that they're not skilled in the things you are. The examples you gave of being familiar with kubernetes but not familiar with service accounts or how HPAs work are entirely not surprising to me. Not everyone works on every aspect of every system they use. As an example, I've needed to explain HPAs to people who are 10x better than me at doing performance investigations.
Don't try to hire yourself. Try to hire someone who has skills that you're missing.
RandomPantsAppear@reddit
Some counterpoints.
I’ve used AWS load balancing, but normally setup by a devops guy. I know this is often the better solution, just haven’t set it up myself.
Can I load balance? Fuck yes I can load balance. Give me some EC2 instances and I’ll have you setup with a balanced and optimized nginx setup in no time flat, and devops isn’t even my job.
Give me a little time, and I’m not at all worried that I could be setup with Amazons load balancer as well.
For AI - right now it’s in a weird spot. I will discuss AI, because I’m interviewing the company I’m interviewing with every bit as much as they are interviewing me. I want to see how much they’ve drunk the Kool aid, if I’m going to be reviewing slop vibe coded by the product team, if you see engineers as dispensable or not.
I do make serious efforts to not be “anti-AI”. I explain how I use it, what my concerns are. Normally it goes over well.
Alone-Method-4537@reddit
this sounds less like confidence and more like bluffing tbh, at staff level, depth matters and it shows pretty quickly when someone only knows the surface, hand-waving details on things like k8s or aws is a big red flag, especially if they claim expertise also yeah, turning an interview into an AI debate is just poor awareness, confidence is good, but it has to be backed by clarity and real experience
davearneson@reddit
What did these bullshit artists have in common?
Foreign-Capital287@reddit
> Another thing that you just shouldn’t do, these guys took the opportunity to vent about AI in the interview Listen, it’s fine to hold those opinions, but keep it on Reddit.
Did you ask them about their opinion or how come they collectively decided to tell you about that?
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
We always give candidates time to ask questions.
They asked about ai adoption at our company, which was a completely fair question and we discussed it.
Then they spent 8 minutes ranting about how ai is ruining our industry and how executives don’t even understand it.
Again not things I disagree with but I have two other people on my panel and it’s awkward for them.
Don’t bring your hot takes to the interview. Save those for when you get the job.
SolidDeveloper@reddit
To play devil’s advocate, maybe at that point in the conversation they decided they wouldn’t join your company given its AI adoption, and so felt free to go on a rant. Like, if you don’t want the job anyway, maybe sharing some hot takes isn’t a problem anymore.
arstarsta@reddit
Don't agree on the AI part. If I'm applying while having a jobs it's as much me wanting the company as the opposite. Rant is always bad but if the hirering manager can't explain how AI is introduced I will pick another company or stay in my current job.
Murky_Citron_1799@reddit
Yeah, people with options are happy to toss out a little push ack and see how the company responds.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I agree. That would have been appropriate. Reddit style ranting about ai, when I have two less experienced interviewers in the call was honestly embarrassing.
Not that the interviewer should care who I bring on my panel, but I discussed it 1:1 after with my team and just kind of let them know they have to be careful when engaging in those discussions.
Last thing you want is to misrepresent the company to an external candidate and get yourself fired.
another_dudeman@reddit
Yup, last two interviews I had I openly discussed AI to get a feel for what the company was doing. Thankfully I still have a job so I could speak candidly. I didn't vent though.
St0xTr4d3r@reddit
DevOps aka “the deploy team” would handle that (configuration) at my last company 🤷♀️
onissue@reddit
First of all..in a sense this is normal. On whichever side of the interviewing and job search process you might happen to be on, you'll invariably find yourself dumbfounded by the reality of how things work, no matter what other people might be experiencing:
Everyone goes into the process thinking that if they're an interviewer, that they can ask questions relevant to the job, and that they can do white boarding / design type questions/walk-throughs/pairing to get an idea about how the other person thinks and communicates, etc., and candidates think that that's the process as well.
That's partially a bad way of thinking of the process because it ignores all the filters and gatekeeping that happened along the way.
However it's also a bad way of thinking of the process because it still implies the notion of "right" answers, which still isn't the best way of thinking of even unquestionably right-or-wrong answers.
People come to where they are skill-wise from many possible paths, and all of us have different blind spots where there are areas we just sort of happened to never look at. It is really weird how that happens, but it happens all the time.
I've had highly skilled coworkers who were unaware of some extremely basic things that I swear I wouldn't consider it possible to be unaware of and still be a functional at their jobs. I was able to say "okay, here's how this works", give a basic foundation, clear up something they didn't know about or understand for years, and then they were aware of it enough for that not to be a stumbling block.
But at the same time, I was amazed that they had gotten so far without knowing something basic and fundamental.
Security groups in AWS are something like that. You can't get away from it if you're putting together EC2 instances yourself, say building their AMI's, using Ansible as part of that process, and making security groups for their autoscaling group, etc.
I've looked at security groups all the time in debugging AWS issues, and I've created them, modified them, etc. And yes, I do consider it a bread-and-butter type thing. Not having dealt with them in AWS is sort of like going to a grocery store and never having tied your shoes.
However, counterexample: In a previous job, I set things up so that our users with limited AWS permissions were able to self-service creating and using SQS queues, fiddling with IAM permissions so that they could do so. You know what I didn't work with when setting that up? I didn't work with security groups, because they don't come into play for SQS queues.
So what if a coworker who didn't know about security groups were tasked with doing such a thing? That coworker could have easily done the same thing, and...never had the opportunity to fill in that hole in their knowledge.
Alternatively, if I had made a Terraform module related to the EC2 autoscaling example, and assuming that the module "just worked", (which is a very reasonable assumption), it is entirely possible that if that coworker had needed to modify something in the Terraform module about the instances, or if they needed to modify the Ansible playbook I used in the image generation process, they may not have needed to look at how I created and specified the security groups.
Yeah, I kind of like to think of everyone sort of being tangentially aware of the existence of what's going on around them in things they make changes to, but not everyone does that, and it's kind of okay--in this example, that coworker would be focusing on the things that needed to be changed, *and* if our network was working so well that they didn't need to make network or firewall changes, and access control didn't have to be changed for networking reasons, that person could blissfully remain ignorant of how security groups work until they run into the need to make that change. (I realize this is a little bit like someone who doesn't bother doing defensive driving happening to still avoid accidents.)
*AND*, if someone like that did run into the need to make that change, it is something they could and would quickly learn, because honestly, security groups are one of the simplest concepts imaginable--it's just the name of a group of a few firewall rules bundled together, and it's only how AWS handles things. GCP does things differently.
Knowledge of security groups and stories about how a person has dealt with them is a green flag / sanity check that a person has worked with AWS, but the lack of knowledge of them doesn't disprove that a person has worked with AWS. At best, it only disproves that they've done certain types of end-to-end greenfield designs 100% by themselves and that's okay. If I were the interviewer, I might mark them down a tiny bit in my head, but only a bit--any other evidence that they've done real design-it-yourself or debugging in AWS would override that one thing, and I'd ask around their AWS experience in a way that would reveal how their lack of exposure to security groups was reasonable. On the other hand, if further questioning showed that they couldn't talk about anything, then that would show that they were lying about doing things in AWS themselves.
It's a clue, not a smoking gun.
adostes@reddit
I interviewed a candidate this week that told me they were “going to keep it simple so you can understand “. Same candidate was confidently wrong multiple times and corrected me when I put him on the right track so we could move on, and was so confident that I had to verify the answers to the very test I designed. Yeah I’m not dealing with that, sorry.
Foreign_Addition2844@reddit
I have 20 years of experience so I should be confident.
But if you ask me to solve some leetcode problem in 30 mins with someone looking over my shoulder, I will fail.
fadeawaythegay@reddit
You spell Indian wrong
zirouk@reddit
I want to discuss something.
I can actually relate to the the folks you describe in this post. Whilst I don't claim to know the stuff off the top of my head, I've got so much experience, that unless it's the project I've been working on in the last few months, my knowledge about x, y and z has decayed. And I don't really mind that, isn't that how it _should_ work?
If your role is going to have me designing service accounts and security groups, I'll need a few days of thinking about and dealing with the problem space to get my "service accounts and security groups" hat back on. Same with autoscaling, and best practices in configuring it. I'm not a walking knowledgebase of every service and software practice under the sun. I don't need to be. I will become the expert when placed in an environment with demands and needs - that is the skill of someone broadly experienced - which experienced software engineers tend to be.
When you're interviewing, you're sitting in a position of privilege because you know what you know, and what problems you're facing. You're in control of the conversation. You're interviewing someone who has spent x years doing lots of different things - probably a lot of what you actually need, perhaps in different forms, different cloud providers whatever, and that could have been spread over many different years.
As someone who is very experienced, I often fall back on talking vaguely about something. I know enough to get myself back into the zone when the environment demands it, but that's never going to happen over the course of a set of interviews in which you get the opportunity to ambush me with your specific needs that you're deeply intimate with.
I encourage you to give the experienced engineers you interview more credit when they're more vague about the topics you're discussing - it doesn't mean they wouldn't be a good hire. They could easily excel in the role when they get up to speed with your specific problems.
SanityAsymptote@reddit
Yeah, when I interview people I generally try to steer them into an opportunity to say "I don't know" or "I'm not deeply familiar with that" or some other admission of human limitation.
The ones that are willing to admit it tend to be my preferred candidates, assuming they're not saying about something they claim to have deep subject matter expertise about.
Interviews tend to be filled with half-truths on both sides, and giving someone an opportunity to be honest about their abilities sets everyone up for success.
itsthekumar@reddit
Idk saying "I don't know." doesn't always seem acceptable.
Wonderful-Habit-139@reddit
I would think, if you've had experience dealing with these kinds of problems, you wouldn't necessarily have to bring up the exact commands or exact terms that are specific to kubernetes. You'd say that you'd need to brush up on your knowledge of kubernetes, but still explain what are the general things that you will have to configure and set, what each of those features are used for, etc. Rather than staying completely silent.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I don't know where people get that I asked for exact commands or even the exact terms.
To dumb it down for the lowest common idiot that's going read this thread, it's like someone explaining that they used c++ to fix the problem and I ask "How?" and they don't know.
If you tell me that you used kubernetes, and I ask you to explain how kubernetes solved your problem, and you can't? Because that is what happened.
Life_Rabbit_1438@reddit
Culturally, one group who is prominent in tech has a strong bluffing culture to get ahead. Can't really just accept people at their word on what they have experience with, as many lie to land the job.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
It's funny, some of the sentiment I'm getting in these replies makes me think people are appalled I would dive deeper in a technical deep dive interview.
I'm going to chalk it up to a subset of individuals who probably put themselves in my example without realizing that I'm not talking about them.
caprisunkraftfoods@reddit
Honestly I'm aghast at some of the replies here. Fellas is it gatekeeping to expect people to know how to do the job the willing applied for?
Wonderful-Habit-139@reddit
That is a very mature conclusion, and I am pretty surprised they're having this low of a standard for a staff role. I feel like these are questions that people lower than a staff level should be able to answer.
Vamosity-Cosmic@reddit
Thats just coder culture. You're just witnessing it now is all.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I’ve noticed it, just not at this scale before. Can also just be sample size and an anomaly
Vamosity-Cosmic@reddit
Very true, let me know if you still experience it. I'm curious.
SinceSevenTenEleven@reddit
The problem is that the junior and mid level job market has collapsed and nobody is hiring below senior. The problem is compounded by classic system design interviews incentivizing this high level knowledge over true evidence of building things.
Source: I'm a job seeker looking for a junior BE/full stack or a mid-level frontend role, unemployed for a year, after having been laid off twice in two years. It feels like I'm climbing a ladder and someone always cuts it right above where I am.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
What is considered mid level? Just not being a engineering manager?
AnimaLepton@reddit
Someone that's an IC, above junior but not yet senior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Generally something like 3-5 years of experience, some broad/general knowledge, but also some specific/specialized knowledge, the ability to work independently. They can do a small project individually, but might not be ready to identify or run a bigger project, or mentor an individual/team by themselves. But you can start to give them those responsibilities to grow their skills. Someone with their first promotion and who has grown out of the more hands-on/pure learning or ticket-based junior engineer work, but without 'full' independence.
Not all orgs have it as an explicit job title, but generally it's something like SDE II. There are a lot of people with 'senior' titles at startups that are functionally mid-levels in terms of both hard and soft skills.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
This has been true for longer than people are willing to admit.
SinceSevenTenEleven@reddit
Yep. I originally got hired in the post pandemic labor market and it's been utter despair ever since.
zulrang@reddit
We recently had a few open positions, got thousands of applicants, interviewed dozens of people, and only hired one person (a referral).
Because every single one of them claimed 10-15 years of experience but couldn’t do the most basic tasks at all.
This is the state of things right now.
inkydye@reddit
I'm seeing more people who are just honestly overconfident about how little they don't know. Does that make sense?
Like, they're not trying to bullshit anyone. They genuinely know several separate things fairly well, and they feel like the stuff they know makes up 70% of all the total useful knowledge that exists. They feel like they're probably close to peak elite professional skill, because they don't know how much more there is out there.
More often than not, some workplace called them a "señor" engineer after they mastered the local codebase and one language or technology after a few years. Not too rarely, they then got to be called a "staff/principal" engineer by eventually being among the 5 most experienced people in an org of 50, no matter how deep or broad the problems they were solving were.
Wise_Transition5139@reddit
If someone can explain a PVC, PV, Pods, Deployments, Deamons, Crons, and how to properly setup a release. Im less concerned if they memorized a specific part of the YAML but hey throw away talent for all I care.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
I mean, the candidate just straight up lied about their experience. But sure, more for you.
Wise_Transition5139@reddit
> Another thing that you just shouldn’t do, these guys took the opportunity to vent about AI in the interview.
Yet here you are, venting about candidates...
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
Almost like they're two completely different scenarios.
Wise_Transition5139@reddit
If I ask you if you're able to think about low level databases and systems, and if we discuss how postgres works and you're able to describe TOAST, VACUUM, Plugins, WAL, and other deep topics, just because you dont understand XYZ feature I dont think I'd put you on the "do not hire" list. But whatever you want pal
Leeoku@reddit
What if I'm confident I'm bad, do I get the job
daedalus_structure@reddit
This has always been the case.
You're looking for a captain of the ship, and you were interviewing people who swabbed the deck. They could speak in general about ships and arrived at all the same destinations, but it's clear that they couldn't navigate even a trivial destination.
The good news is that due to layoffs, we are actually in a period where there are more capable people in the job pool than ever.
It's actually harder to find gems in good job markets because nobody lets them go, and they are rarely looking for work. They move when someone who has worked with them before headhunts them.
Ok-Pace-8772@reddit
So you're telling me staff engineers should dive into deep technical details of autoscaling rather than looking into broader technical planning and architecture across technologies and teams? You and OPs ideas of staff seem different from mine.
I wouldn't care if a staff knew about autoscaling config options. I'd care if he knew how to enable his team to work on that.
Stephonovich@reddit
Knowing that Karpenter exists, and that you can run it from Fargate or a node group is hardly “deep technical details.” That’s info you can get from the intro page, and if you’ve claimed to be working on K8s in any meaningful capacity in the last few years, I would expect you to know that, yes.
What “broader technical planning” do you think would occur here? The first one that comes to my mind is knowing that Karpenter calls from Spot instances, so your applications need to be able to gracefully handle shutdown with a 2-minute warning - and if you know that, you’re also going to be able to talk intelligently about it at a broader level.
Wonderful-Habit-139@reddit
This "broader technical planning" claim is the same as vibe coders claiming they're responsible for the design and architecture, and that they're only using the AI for coding. It's obvious vibe coders have no business claiming that.
I think they underestimate how much detail you need to know to actually be useful in planning things.
Wonderful-Habit-139@reddit
Definitely have a different idea of staff from you. Enabling a team to work on something without providing technical guidance sounds like the job of a manager.
daedalus_structure@reddit
Yes. If you don't know the very basics of how the technology works, how are you going to know when someone is bullshitting you? How are you going to review the work of others? How are you going to train people on the right way to do things when you don't know them?
Go learn the details every time you need to review something?
Who's got that amount of time?
A staff engineer is that technical expertise, and in addition, the organizational competence.
You can't have just one half of the puzzle and be a competent staff engineer.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
It’s not deep technical details.
Imagine you’re telling me about something you built and I ask you to describe what choices you ran into and how you evaluated them, and you can’t even list the different options you had.
You’re placing yourself in this. It’s not about you, you might be completely capable.
I’m talking about a candidate that doesn’t know the first decision they would have had to make if they actually were responsible for such decision.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
Is it me, or is the job market not as bad as it was 1-2 years ago?
huge-centipede@reddit
What bubble exactly are you living in?
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
The layoffs in 2023 were much worse than they are today.
My company is hiring and I've also been interviewing.
Sorry if my perspective offends you, it's why I asked.
t-tekin@reddit
“Bad” in what sense?
My recent staff position opening got (AAA big game company); * over 1000 applications. A ton of garbage resumes that didn’t pass recruiters. Too junior or no game industry experience etc… many of them laid off or had no jobs. * I would say 20 passed the experience requirements bar from resumes. I picked 8 best from that. * Interestingly 6 out of 8 had jobs and was at competition companies. Most of these our recruiters had reached out. They didn’t apply. But we’re interested. * 5 couldn’t pass the interviews. 3 did. The one we picked has been amazing. We pretty much stole a star engineer of our competition.
4 years ago hiring a staff would take 6 months+.
I think current market is asymmetrical; * Junior-mid market is crushed. Thousands of resumes. * there are more senior/staff out there comparatively but they are still very rare to find. I think they assume market is bad and they don’t even look around if they have jobs, even if they don’t like it much. * I think many good senior/staff are still not laid off and companies keep them.
So for a staff position don’t rely on the applicant pool. Go source it yourself.
mpanase@reddit
I wouldn't go as far as 2 years.
I'd say that it's slightly better than 1 year ago, though. At least in Europe.
GrouchyPerspective83@reddit
Well seniors may be going through extintion, since companies dont want juniors, how new seniors will be made in the future? Or are the new seniors, juniors that build things with AI? I wonder.
pmkiller@reddit
Idk if the tought occured to you, but maybe you are too good for this world, perhaps you're a genious, call Deepmind to setup their LLM nodescaling and be a millionaire.
Idk what you've been through, interviewing is rough on both ends, some people come with different skillsets than others simply because they never had to deal with whatever problems you've faced. Some devs are indeeed subpar, allowing others to shine in situations that are needed. When someone is underqualified it shows and you'll not feel a need for validating your decision, but complaining about others is a kindergarden level solution.
codescapes@reddit
Honestly, who actually cares about some of these specifics? I could figure out how to configure an AWS policy in an hour if I needed to, it's not an insane thing for anyone with some experience and an internet connection.
You set this stuff up and then don't worry about it again until you actually need to. It's simply not that important compared to general competency which is usually pretty apparent by just getting them to speak about their background and then asking probing questions.
In interviews you shouldn't care about configuration syntax like this, it's worthless compared to understanding the concepts in play. If someone can explain what scaling options exist, problems with choosing one over others, how you can use IaaC etc - that matters more.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
This is why I like asking people about when something went wrong, like a system going down or the messiest code that they've worked with. People who have dealt with those situations love talking about it as a funny, or at least relatable, story.
ShiningMagpie@reddit
This is absurd. Who remembers the details of autoacaling configuration without having just worked or read up on it?
delightless@reddit
For a staff level position I absolutely want to know their thoughts and opinions about AI. This is a person who is going to have a role in setting and enforcing the culture of the team. You'd better be sure you're on the same page.
Puggravy@reddit
If you're hiring them to be a lead SRE then it's a problem, if not, I would just ask them to clarify. The language can confusing and obtuse even to seasoned professionals.
demosthenesss@reddit
In my last interview I told the hiring manager even though they were interested in moving forward I didn't think it was a good fit and wouldn't be setup for success based on their needs and my background.
I'll be happy to interview and be a non-arrogant candidate hah.
More seriously though, this has been the case forever. The big difference now is there's more people on the market. More qualified/competent folks will trend towards getting jobs faster (but not guaranteed) which means the massive application pool will be more and more people who are unable to get any job for whatever reasons.
IPv6forDogecoin@reddit
There's an economic term for this market for lemons. Where the market of available purchases tends towards below average quality because above average items are picked up more quickly and go on the market less often.
Logical-Pea-4135@reddit
It's a whole popular tactic to just apply to every job. It has to do with the job opening posting and application process. It's in a death spiral. It's your fault for interviewing anyone who is a misfit.
PracticallyPerfcet@reddit
Venting about AI in an interview is wild. You keep your cards close to your chest on that one.
SeaMisx@reddit
I don't understand why but most programmers are pretentious douche bags.
I'm always like "You're not a f**** NASA engineer, just STFU"
Now, I have reached the point where I want to have them scan by a psychiatric first because it is a real issue, it's not a small problem, the majority of them are pretentious douche bags that are f**** incompetent.
But we can't do that so what I do is that I straight up say "If you're not an Unreal Engine contributor since prior to 2020, we will not even consider you for an interview"
I can't stand to interview pseudo seniors that will end up referencing assets by path or think that BP can be used or whatever else nonsense related to the Unreal Engine and that can't write proper C++.
Way much better result since then.
lokaaarrr@reddit
Covid hiring and promotion boom has convinced a lot of people they know ore then they do.
dotnetdemonsc@reddit
Twenty years in this industry and I still consider myself a dumbass with a brain as smooth as a bowling ball
Hot-Profession4091@reddit
And you’re hired.
Yamitz@reddit
Idk how anyone can claim to know anything in this industry, it’s constantly changing.
lokaaarrr@reddit
I honestly find working where you don't feel dumb or, learning exciting new stuff really boring.
Stay dumb, always work somewhere with people smarter than you
Yamitz@reddit
Oh 100% - it’s what I love about my job
DanFromShipping@reddit
It constantly changing makes it so there's so much stuff that it always feels like there's a huge percentage I don't know anything about. And then because I'm constantly learning new stuff, I start to forget all the stuff from the past. I started out much closer to what is now devops, and I got pretty good with Linux, apache, nginx, and squid. That was almost 20 years ago and I barely know any of that despite it still being on my resume under the role description.
I also hope that all this learning helps stave off any dementia though.
drahgon@reddit
What terrible questions. You are absolutely the problem here. You don't know what good interviewing is nor do you know how to hire.
PoMoAnachro@reddit
I've never been in a hiring role aside from sitting in on an interview like twice so I don't have good perspective here, but all of my friends who have done a lot of hiring are constantly bemoaning how like 98% of the candidates they interview are laughably incompetent even if they have years of industry experience. If you got lucky and found two candidates who are good fits you're probably batting above average already.
I think the thing is most competent people are going to be continuously employed so not the people you'll see on the job hunt. If they get laid off, often they'll have people knocking down their door before they've even polished up their resume. Obviously there are some competent people out there applying, but they're just going to be vastly outnumbered by the incompetents.
Noobsauce9001@reddit
So, I have been applying to senior roles where I don't have tons of professional experience as those candidates, but I am far more honest about it once in front of the interviewer.
Ex: I just applied to an Angular / Java Springboot role a little over a month ago. I had not used either of those extensively, but am an experienced React developer, so prior to the interview I spent two week heads down going through every major topic so I understood conceptually what the languages did, design patterns, important decisions, common points of annoyance, etc. Basically min/maxing my time to get good at talking shop about them, but not necessarily to recall tiny syntax details or specific names.
When the interview comes up, I admit plainly - this is something I've only used in personal projects, however I've used similar languages. I then talk shop, even by the end of the interview the panel says I clearly could come up to speed on this fast and understand it well.
Anyways by the end no matter how well I discussed issues, my honestly always, always gets me rejected, in favor of a candidate who spoke smugly and said they had extensive experience on it. I've been laid off for over 15 months at this point.
Plainly put, from a candidates perspective, the best strategy is to talk as if you're proficient, and assemble your Swiss cheese slice of knowledge, hoping they don't poke one of the holes where you didn't have time to study.
The_0bserver@reddit
You seem to have asked devops type questions to them while they probably worked entirely on the dev side of things (my guess). Probably because they had different teams doing the dev ops side of things.
Maybe think about asking some other stuff like linting, their code pipelines, what broke etc?
I do understand the want to have them know the general basics for sure, but if their roles were entirely about applications and code, and this role is also generally about that, then it makes sense to me.
mico9@reddit
Yes
Quick-Ad2386@reddit
yeah it's a common thing the market's weird right now you got lucky with the first two the rest is usually a slog of people who can talk but can't do the work just gotta keep filtering.
kruvii@reddit
The Manosphere effect?
miyakohouou@reddit
I've been doing a lot of interviewing lately. Last year I had to 3x my own team, and I'm part of a small pool of interviewers who do the initial technical screening interviews for all of the engineering roles across the company.
I don't think the candidate pool is worse these days than it has been in the past. Even 20 years ago I remember interviewing candidates for senior roles who couldn't solve FizzBuzz in an hour.
In general, most interviews are just not going to go very well. You have a baseline number of candidates who aren't qualified for the role- and they are over represented in interviews since they are in the market longer and interview more often. You have people who are strong engineers but have experience that's misaligned with the interview, and strong engineers who are having an off day and perform badly. It's difficult, sometimes impossible, to tell those candidates from the under-qualified ones.
Also, anecdotally, interviewing feels very bursty to me. I'll have a run of great candidates, then suddenly a long run of bad interviews. Interviewing can get pretty depressing during those bad runs. I'm not sure why it happens that way- maybe something about cohorts entering the market, maybe human bias anchoring on a good or bad interview and creating the illusion of a run. In any case, if you're getting a run of bad candidates and it's hitting you hard, I'd encourage you to see if you can rotate out of the pool for a while if it's an option. Sometimes a week or two off interviewing can help you reorient.
carlemur@reddit
Are your candidates LLMs? They sound like LLMs
Onedome@reddit
I like confidence just not delusion. For me, if they had to lie to get in and we expose that. Then what else would they do if we do hire them? Honesty is the best policy but man in this market I can’t blame folks for trying to exude confidence just to put some food on their table and pay bills. Just don’t lie to me.
Windyvale@reddit
A lot of companies lie to the candidates too. Maybe honesty in the process should be the default.
jaypeejay@reddit
I feel like interviewing you want to max two skill trees: charisma, deep technical knowledge, or humility. Sounds like they only focused on charisma.
Oxi_Ixi@reddit
I see a lot of junior people out of university which just finished their BC in CS and while having one or two internships are not able to solve simple coding problem using any language of their choice.
Sometimes I think I have too high expectations. But then I recall my own junior interview and that the bar was the same as i expect now
1AMA-CAT-AMA@reddit
Confidence and competency gets people hired.
The key word is both. It’s hard to project the fact you’re competent without confidence. But confidence without anything else is also useless
tomdaley92@reddit
What is all this, "you should do" and "you shouldn't do"? If you don't want to hire them then don't. Just because they did something you deem as wrong doesn't mean every interviewer will. And idk who you think you are, but the entirety of this industry is almost all BS, especially interviews and especially right now. If they want to rant about AI then so be it. I fail to see how any of these things would be red flags. Did you miss the part where people can get nervous and it shows up in different ways?
sharadov@reddit
You sound like a few gate keeping, egotistical jerks I’ve come across in my interviews. Why do you need implementation details? I’ve implemented all kinds of shit in my life that I don’t remember? Heck I barely know what I implemented last week.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
Because If you're claiming you designed something, I expect you to be able to explain to other engineers how it works.
Sheldor5@reddit
Fake It 'Till You Make It
janyk@reddit
Yeah, maybe they're terrible candidates. Or maybe their definition of deep knowledge is different from your definition of deep knowledge.
I've used AWS services a bunch and I don't know what service accounts or security groups are.
ninetofivedev@reddit (OP)
As long as you wouldn't claim you're an expert in those topics, we're fine.
starwars52andahalf@reddit
Someone claiming “deep” knowledge and then hand waving answers is definitely a red flag and should be rejected.
Given the job market, you might be getting candidates who are trying to get past your resume filter if you explicitly mention things like “X years of AWS/Kubernetes” on your job description.
Frogeyedpeas@reddit
For nearly 30 years this is all it took to be an architect or principal in most non tech companies and those guys many times never got laid off. Can you really the blame the younger generation from seeing it and saying “well it doesn’t make any fucking sense but I’m going to be intellectually humble and accept it, if I just pretend to be a senior idiot maybe someone will hire me as senior idiot”. And they wouldn’t even be wrong, I’ve seen it work in front of my own eyes at least a few months back.