Do people in Serbia today still engage with the idea of “Greater Serbia,” or is it largely a thing of the past?

[-]

icameisawicame24@reddit

As a Serb- it depends. Very few people take the idea seriously and you'll mostly hear about it from drunk boomers if you go to a kafana. Now, most people consider Kosovo something that was unlawfully taken from us, but I think most people also accept that it's lost. Most people think of Montenegro and RS as the same people that were separated from us by artificial borders. But I don't think anyone is willing to go to war over that, people just want stronger cooperation with them. Everyone knows that another war would be even more devastating than the last one.

Now if you go to Montenegro and RS I think the feelings of Serbian nationalism are slightly stronger, but still no one wants another war.

[-]

Timepass10@reddit

Now, most people consider Kosovo something that was unlawfully taken from us

Genuine question: How many people would you say question this narrative in itself but don't want to say it out loud? Because most albanians consider that Kosovo was unjustly taken from them at the beginning of the 20th century. So, the difference in perspective is interesting.

[-]

icameisawicame24@reddit

I don't think anyone questions it. There are people who simply don't care, but I haven't met any Serb that believes the narrative that Kosovo was historically Albanian.

[-]

postnamasti@reddit

Because most albanians consider that Kosovo was unjustly taken from them at the beginning of the 20th century.

Something that wasn't yours in the first place can't be taken away from you lmao

[-]

Snoo-19350@reddit

Amongst the pro-Vuč*ć, none. Amongst everyone else, they either believe it was taken away with the help of the West, or they think it was taken away because of our own management, and to be honest it's probably like 70-30% in favor of the former within the second group.

There's not a lot who believe that Kosovo has the right for self-determination, and to be honest I don't expect it either. The Balkan society and all the separatist movements were caused by war and aggression, so you won't find a scenario like for example Greenland where their overlord gives them an actual option to self-determination if they want to declare independence. Neither is our society that 'advanced' and tolerant where they can accept a fellow group seceeding because they are unhappy, nor are our countries prosperous enough because I noticed the richer the country is, the less disatisfied they are with the government, therefore they see a seccession less like another burden to their lives. When you have a poor man who is not happy with his life, I don't think him seeing his country lose land will be really taken well by him.

I think the last bit translates to every country in the region to an extent, and in Europe correlates to how rich and advanced a country is. You can see that in Spain where they are rich but not the richest, so you still get an extent of people who would hardly accept Catalonia's independence. If we were rich countries I don't think people would care that much about a legal seccession in their country, but in the same fashion the revolting people group would have less of a reason to declare independence.

[-]

nindza-22@reddit

It does not go to school books at all.

There was no actual project of Greater Serbia, every Serbian military fraction in Yugoslav wars had it's own agenda - some wanted to keep Yugoslavia, some wanted Greater Serbia, and most just wanted to steal laundry machines and refrigerators and sell them on the black market. Serbia was not officially in the state of war, all the troops were mobilized as a "military exercise". Who was smart, refused to go, and would get only six months in prison.

My opinion is that Serbs had justified concerns the way Croatia wanted to secede, but Serbia reacted in the most brutal and the most retarded way, and without too much of a plan. And it all ended accordingly, as a total failure.

You know that meme about the wasting of the resources, where a guy piles up a bunch of ladders by the wall and can't reach the top, instead of using just one ladder placed properly? That's Serbia.

I wonder who could put all the shit from that war into a coherent lesson in the school book.

So, it remained a wet dream in the heads of nationalists, nothing more.

[-]

krell_154@reddit

My opinion is that Serbs had justified concerns the way Croatia wanted to secede, but Serbia reacted in the most brutal and the most retarded way, and without too much of a plan. And it all ended accordingly, as a total failure.

I respect your opinion. However, I am not a huge fan of comparing to Africa.

Africa has been robbed of its richness and drained by the west long before they were divided. Took away natural resources and education and rights and it’s still on-going.

I’d rather be very careful with the comparison.

[-]

AgeRepresentative887@reddit

Please tell me what “education” the west took from Africa? How to start a fire or skin an animal?

[-]

wtfisthissssssssssss@reddit (OP)

[-]

Excellent-Amy-1893@reddit

unrelated, but there is picture of Victor Orban wearing a scarf with a greater Hungary map on it

[-]

wtfisthissssssssssss@reddit (OP)

There is a greater Israel too.

Living in harmony and containment with each others is an act of rebellion at this point

[-]

BarnaclePotential132@reddit

I get your point, but borderlines, and the issues it creates, are commonly taken as the No. 1 reason for Africas inability to work together and develop properly. Its not the sole reason but the one that affects peoples minds the most. We all are simple, the reason i am pointing out is the one which affects peoples minds the most and therefore impacts politics and everyday life the most.

[-]

ku11a@reddit

It’s ‘live’, not ‘life’.

The topic is Serbia, not some other country, even if, as a Serb, you’d rather point the finger at others.

Setzen, 6! Mein Gott, sowas wie dich gibt es wirklich.

[-]

Bro just say you are ultra nationalist and cut the crap with your “serbian history”. Everything you said is a lie.

[-]

krell_154@reddit

Great Croatia literally consists of all of Bosnia, all of Montenegro and half of Vojvodina.

Who in Croatia talks about that? Who talked about it after 1945.?

Being continuously inhabited by Serbs for several hundred years and having been victims of genocide are two very relevant criteria. That territory should have never been part of Croatia after WWII, nor for that matter in 1991.

Krajina was never inhabited exclusively by Serbs, nor were Serbs ever such an overwhelming majority there that it made sense to consider it Serbian land. In 1991., some 300 000 or so non-Serbs were expelled from Krajina, which is roughly the same as the number of Serbs living there, or slightly less. That part was included in Croatia in WWII due to its historical inclusion in Croatia, an administrative unit of the Habsburg empire. And your comment perfectly illustrates the problem I referred to.

[-]

AgeRepresentative887@reddit

Great post. And it all stems from a deep feeling of inferiority and insecurity. These Balkan states have been occupied and governed by foreigners, they have never had any form of enlightened self-government, they are the most backward and god forsaken part of Europe and in turn they are super touchy about their great country and its glorious past.

[-]

Happy-Hour88@reddit

Yeah it's crazy, for this reason I avoid discussing these things with fellow Balkaners.

[-]

AcolythusLatinus@reddit

As someone who is not ethnically Serb, who lives in Bosnia & Herzegovina the idea of Greater Serbia is still alive and well in the Balkans, some parties promote it openly, while others do it in a more "curtain" style of sense! This idea is not going to go anywhere anytime now, both it still lives in the hearts and minds of the Serbian people from both sides of the Drina river. The best thing to do is to integrate the Western Balkans to the EU and Schengen space, that way this idea will be relegated to second best option for the Balkans.

[-]

Incvbvs666@reddit

The best thing to do is to integrate the Western Balkans to the EU and Schengen space, that way this idea will be relegated to second best option for the Balkans.

Ha, what ridiculousness. That's exactly what the communists told the Serb people when the borders of the republics were being drawn. 'We are all one,' 'Borders aren't important, they're just administrative' and so on.

Quite simply until the Serbian question is answered there will be no peace in the Balkans.

[-]

AcolythusLatinus@reddit

Ethnic nationalism will be present in the Balkans for some time more, both I think that people have been exhausted with poverty and corruption, most of them want to emigrate to Western European nations to be far away from their compatriots...and I still think it is a lot better than the 90's all over again.

[-]

Ancient-Song-8428@reddit

I absolutely dissagree with you. This is simply not true.

[-]

Because non-Serbs live there too. Because non-Serbs have lived there for centuries and still have homes and orchards and fields with their memories and history woven into every fiber. And this is true for areas where serbs once lived, but were forced out of.

The best answer for everyone there will always be one, decentralized central government with strong, local institutions at smaller state level. Yugoslavia could've worked. But all this "all X ethnic group under one mon-ethnic state" is nonsense and it'll only ever lead to more war and ethnic cleansing.

What do you think Eastern Herzegovina is? It's been consistently and continuously inhabited by Serbs since the 600s, more than even most areas of modern Serbia, it's been part of the Serbian medieval kingdom, yet for some reason now it has to be part of Bosnia because a bunch of communists said that it was of the utmost importance to respect the decisions of the Berlin Congress(!!! Yeah THAT meeting of the proleteriat!)

We are content with what we have and we don't seek what isn't ours.

Then allow the Serb and Croat majority areas the option of leaving Bosnia.

That's again the key difference between us and the savages that you support.

Ah, calling other ethnicities 'savages.' How nice! Really shows us that Serbs can expect fair treatment in the multi-culti Bosnia.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

Eastern Herzegovina is Bosnian land and has been inhabited by Bosniaks for centuries as well. It was never part of any Serbian state much less of any independent Serbian state. That same Berlin Congress that you are so critical of gave Sandzak to Serbia even though it was part of Bosnia-Herzegovina before that. Yet no one today is advocating for Bosnia-Herzegovina to just snatch Sandzak away from Serbia (and Montenegro).

As soon as you allow Hungarian, Bosniak and Albanian majority areas of Serbia the option to leave Serbia, we will allow Serb and Croat majority areas the option of leaving Bosnia. Ultimately, Bosniaks don't owe Serbs anything.

Wanting to annex foreign lands and committing genocide and ethnic cleansing in an attempt to do that is the very definition of savagery. I have no problem calling people who did that and who support that 'savages' because that's exactly what they are. Serbs in fact regularly use way worse terms to describe non-Serbs.

[-]

Incvbvs666@reddit

[Eastern Herzegovina] was never part of any Serbian state much less of any independent Serbian state.

Eastern Herzegovina was literally within the boundaries of the Nemanjić kingdom... I mean you're entitled to your opinions, but not your facts. It only came part of medieval Bosnia during the conquests of King Tvrko I.

As soon as you allow Hungarian, Bosniak and Albanian majority areas of Serbia the option to leave Serbia, we will allow Serb and Croat majority areas the option of leaving Bosnia.

You think that's some sort of an own, but it's literally a deal Serbs would easily take in a heartbeat. Not counting Kosovo, the number of municipalities in which others are a majority within Serbia is a tiny fraction of the number of Serb-majority municipalities outside of Serbia.

Wanting to annex foreign lands and committing genocide

It's not 'foreign land's if you lived on it for hundreds or even thousands of years as a majority! Your attempts to blatantly usurp lands belonging to someone else thanks to arbitrary borders drawn by foreign powers is the true savagery.

Serbs in fact regularly use way worse terms to describe non-Serbs.

No, you, Croats and Albanians always use 'Great Serbia' as an excuse to kill and oppress Serbs and deny them basic rights.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

The Nemanjic kingdom occupied Bosnian lands that they've conquered just like other people did before them and after them. And honestly, who cares what part of the country was part of which kingdom 800 years ago? Only you and your nationalist friends are obsessed over events that happened hundreds of years before you and anyone you know was born because you think it's some kind of gotcha moment. Newsflash, it's not!

Yes I'm sure Serbs would take that deal easily seeing how much they have been crying about Kosovo and to a lesser extent Montenegro for the past 15+ years. You don't get to say that you're ok with that but then try to exclude Kosovo because it's inconvenient to you. Either you are ok with it fully or you aren't, in which case you're a hypocrite. Who are you trying to fool here? You know as well as I do that Serbia and Serbs would never allow Hungarian, Bosniak and Albanian majority areas of Serbia the option to leave Serbia nor should they. Why should one rule apply for Serbs and different rules should apply to non-Serbs in the same situation? Nobody owes you anything!

Serbs weren't the majority of the population on those lands, most towns in Eastern Bosnia were Bosniak majority prior to 1992. Those aren't arbitrary borders, they are only arbitrary borders to you because you think you can just grab land that doesn't belong to you as you please while others should stay silent and bow in compliance to your whims. Sorry, that's not gonna happen!

Which Serbs have Bosniaks killed and oppressed while denying them basic rights? You cannot attack every single neighboring ex-Yugo country in an attempt to steal their lands and then cry that you're the victims when people fight back and call you out on your bullshit. That's the kind of self-entitlement, madness and supreme arrogance that led to you losing Kosovo and Montenegro.

[-]

Incvbvs666@reddit

You don't get to say that you're ok with that but then try to exclude Kosovo because it's inconvenient to you.

That's because Kosovo has already de facto seceded. I support the rights of Kosovo Albanians for self-determination, as long as Serbs in Kosovo get the same right in Serb-majority areas.

Nobody owes you anything!

And no one owes you anything either! Serbs certainly don't owe anything to those that have on two occassions tried to eradicate them and openly trample on their rights and certainly not to those who have for the last 30 years consistently been trying to destroy the little autonomy they have in Bosnia.

Bosnia is less of a state and more of a hostage situation. We'll continue to do everything in our legal and political power, and if attacked military power, to ensure our eventual independence from such a state.

The Nemanjic kingdom occupied Bosnian lands that they've conquered

Nemanjić Kingdom 'occupied Bosnian lands' before these lands were EVER considered to be part of Bosnia by anyone? Wow, what insanity! What's next? Native Americans occupying US lands?

And honestly, who cares what part of the country was part of which kingdom 800 years ago?

Yeah, 'who cares' when your point that... checks notes... 'We are content with what we have and we don't seek what isn't ours' is completely refuted!

Yeah, let's go to the present where this area is almost 100% Serbian, both before and after the Yugoslav wars.

You seek lands that you've never inhabited in the past, don't inhabit in the present and are 'yours' merely by virtue of foreign occupying powers drawing lines in the ground and an openly anti-Serb communist dictatorship approving them, lines never borne of any genuine democratic will of the people living there.

THAT is entitlement!

[-]

PasicT@reddit

If you support the rights of Kosovo Albanians for self-determination (and I don’t believe that for a second) then you’re among the 2-3% of Serbs who support that, if even that much. The rest are going around waving 'no surrender flags' and painting murals calling for Kosovo to be reconquered militarily. Also, you do not understand how the right to self-determination works.

No one owes us anything either and that’s why you don’t see Bosniaks whining all the time while making special demands and behaving exactly the same way with the same rhetoric for the past 30+ years still expecting Bosniaks and Croats to find that normal. We have long realized that nobody owes us anything, meanwhile Serbs still haven’t realized that and keep pushing aggressively for more and more each time while expecting everyone else to bow to their demands as they continue to celebrate and glorify war criminals and genocide and thus showing that they not only do not care about peace and reconciliation but also that they would be more than willing to repeat their crimes if they could. Go ahead and try to leave through independence, see what happens. The fact that you advocate for that and then have the audacity to claim "Greater Serbia" is not a real thing and a real project says a lot about you as a human being.

The Nemanjic kingdom existed roughly around the same time as the Banate of Bosnia so yes some Bosnian lands were conquered. In fact, back than Vukan Nemanjic attacked Kulin and accused him of heresy. Even in the Middle Ages, your ancestors could not get along with anyone.

That area in question (Eastern Bosnia and Eastern Herzegovina) was never almost 100% Serbian and certainly not before the genocide and ethnic cleansing done against non-Serbs that you are so proud of and that you celebrate still to this day like little fascists. You should get educated on maps and ethnic composition of Bosnian municipalities prior to 1992. And get educated from ACTUAL tangible sources, not from the Serbian propaganda machine fed to you from birth that lies about everything.

Which family members of yours were killed, by whom, where and what basic rights were they denied? If this happened, I certainly condemn this and you won't see me celebrating the criminals who did this. That's the fundamental difference between Bosniaks and Serbs now and forever.

[-]

Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Wanting to annex foreign lands and committing genocide and ethnic cleansing in an attempt to do that is the very definition of savagery.

You litteraly did that in WW2 to Serbs. Under different name, though - '“Croats of Islamic faith'.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

Which foreign lands did Bosniaks annex during WW2? Talk to Croats, they are the ones who committed most of the ethnic cleansing and genocide.

[-]

Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

Yes, there is such thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Bosnia?wprov=sfla1

By 300 people at the airport, sure. If Mladic or Karadzic were ever released from prison, they would be welcomed at the airport by 300 000 people minimum. Also, Oric was never found guilty of genocide, Mladic and Karadzic were.

Delic served his time (for failing to prevent and punish war crimes) and Alagic was not convicted of war crimes or genocide

Yes it does, Serbs do those things still to this day while regularly threatening Bosniaks with new killings which you of course enjoy and support.

[-]

Incvbvs666@reddit

I love your level of shameless backpedalling and gaslighting...

'We never glorified Orić'... video od him geing welcomed... '300 at the airport sure, but that's not SOCIETAL support from top to bottom...'

The cope...

[-]

Well, that is the difference between you and us:

We want freedom, you want to eradicate us.

We want land on which we are a majority, you also want land on which we are a majority.

Our hatred is 'fascism', your hatred is a 'defence mechanism.'
(God forbid there having been anything to have happened on the territory of Bosnia that would justify Serbs having a similar mechanism!)

We wanted to find a compromise, always did, you never wanted anything of the sort because you believed you were entitled to everything and that the West would help you achieve it. (That's why you withdrawed from the CC plan.)

Lastly...
We are actually critical to the likes of Mladić and Milošević, while you are unfailingly celebratory of your war criminals because you view the war of trying to eradicate Serbs west of Drina as morally just, as you've clearly indicated just now.

[-]

Fickle-Message-6143@reddit

Yeah we are, we don't paint murals in honor of convicted of war criminals, we don't glorify genocide and we don't engage in routine historical revisionism.

Nope, you just name schools and streets after SS members and pro-Nazi/Ustache people like Husein Đozo.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

And that's been contested for years. 99% of the people going to that school don't even know who Dozo was.

[-]

Incvbvs666@reddit

'We don't paint murals of war criminals'.... mural of war criminal.... 'that's been contested for years...'

"Srbija do Tokija" is not a serious nationalist delusion of grandeur and has nothing to do with Greater Serbia. It's just something we like to say when we travel abroad lol.

Anyways, schools don't teach about yugoslavia much in general. They kinda gloss over the whole period. Chetniks are seen more in a brighter light despite me seeing them as traitors to the Slavic peoples. Not much is educated on Yugoslavia. Most of history is taught specifically about Serbia all the way to formation of Yugoslavia. After formation you have basically 3 subjects about WW2, one subject about yugoslavia during the cold war and one subject about the civil war. 5 subjects of 80 years kinda glossed over. Meanwhile Serbia in 1800s alone gets like 5-6 subjects about it.

So to sum it all up. The idea of "greater Serbia" isn't taught in schools, only some teachers sell the idea to younger students. Most of Yugoslav history is mostly glossed over since the elite really don't want to speak about it.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

Yes it does, they just like to lie about it.

[-]

wtfisthissssssssssss@reddit (OP)

I know for a fact that few countries (out of the Balkan) change their school materials to fit the narrative.

The question was about Greater Serbia not about the morality of Chetniks, which I agree with you is complete bullshit but a whole another topic.

Try to stick to the subject.

[-]

When facing Serbs, "paranoid" people survive while others end up in body bags and mass graves. I'd rather be "paranoid" than dead.

[-]

theDivic@reddit

Nice job, you managed to sound both like a nationalist bigot and a delusional person at the same time.

Get a therapist.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

No, I'm just being honest and realistic. History has proven me right, time and time again. It's your own damn fault if people think the way I do because you have given them every reason in the world to think this way.

[-]

Ancient-Song-8428@reddit

No, it does not.

[-]

Unable-Stay-6478@reddit

It doesn't.

[-]

nindza-22@reddit

Nope. Not back then, not now. It was never even a real plan, but rather am ad-hoc mish-mash of interests of particular military fractions involved in the war.

That includes: a bigger part of Bosnia, Montenegro, and a part of Croatia.

In the meantime, most Serbs were forcefully exiled from Croatia, many Montenegrins decided they don’t want to be Serbs any more, Republika Srpska got its autonomy and Kosovo separated from Serbia.

So the idea doesn’t make any sense any more to anyone and now everyone is just focusing on the Kosovo problem.

[-]

trisul-108@reddit

In the eyes of people in Serbia, why wouldn't the Kosovo problem be solved by Serbia and Kosovo both entering the EU. There would be the four freedoms, including democracy, rule of law and human rights. Minorities would be protected, Serbs and others would freely travel, do business, buy property etc.

They would essentially be all living as if in the same country. Why is that not an attractive solution compared to endless conflicts?

[-]

theDivic@reddit

There is no “eyes of people in Serbia” we are divided on much simpler topics than that one, there’s a lot of people who think that way but there’s also many different viewpoints.

I am not stating my personal opinion, just the current situation as it is, though I mostly agree with you.

But you have to understand that there’s not too much trust in the EU in Serbia. Many people feel betrayed after 2001, we had a revolution, people were heavily repressed and some even killed to overthrow Milošević.

We accepted peace as it was proposed back then which involved Kosovo remaining an autonomous part of Serbia, transitioned into capitalism, started EU integrations etc. EU was silent until 2008, then declared unilateral independence supported by the same EU, that went completely against what was agreed earlier.

I personally believe that what you say is the solution, but why would an average Serb believe it if we are still not in the EU, we are still always labeled as the bad guys (like the 2001 never happened), we lost a piece of our country while Albanians continued fighting in Macedonia and still waving the greater Albania flag that includes the Preševo valley?

[-]

Greater Serbia ideology and Serbian territorial integrity goes hand in hand. Serbian territorial integrity was compromised by Milosevic long before it was ever compromised by NATO because NATO's intervention is a direct result of Milosevic's previous catastrophic policies.

[-]

Inside_Survey_5079@reddit

Yes, there is truth in what you are saying. However, apart from Slobodan Milošević's bad decisions, there was also catastrophic policymaking on the part of the leading European countries and the United States. The consequences of those decisions can be seen today in different conflicts where the Kosovo case is being used as an alibi.

I swear man, you are mixing official state policy with what crazy people write on the Internet 😅

gif

Oh. That's all right then.

Genocide, here we come!!! [/s]

[-]

Imaginary_String_814@reddit

interesting how you use the suffering of victims in such a way.

what i mentioned did happen, and in handsight the plan was decent enough to work as real framework, and even if you didnt believe in it why still withdraw. Makes no sense to me

Leaders must be responsibe to do everything possible to prevent escalation.

(obviously not talking about defense)

[-]

ComprehensiveDig1108@reddit

To be fair, he specified one particular day.

Nationalists view Yugoslavia's creation as the gravement of Serbia, while more educated and not so hot headed individuals think about it differently.

Today in general, people do not care and will definitely not go to war against any country. Even for Kosovo, I don't see people willing to fight for it's regaining.

[-]

PitonSaJupitera@reddit

Yugoslavia was objectively a disaster for Serbia because it is a completely failed investment. Serbia would have probably fared better had it never been formed and a more solely Serbian state was chosen instead.

To add insult to injury groups the had almost no bargaining chips when Yugoslavia was created and caused a lot of problems for Serbs ended up elevating their position, while Serbia's position diminished

[-]

Equivalent_Bag_3634@reddit

Serbia was its own biggest enemy . Similar things you can hear from Hungarians. Truth is at least at the end of the 80 you were economically and socially in a good place with lot of opportunities. But as a whole you decided to bring the house down and Serbia insisted even to a sequel. Ofc the big powers exploited the situation and helped you harm yourself . Maybe at least now you can mellow a bit your discourse and allow the next generations to find their own without burdening them with empty hate.

[-]

Mikile00@reddit

More educated people know that Serbia had big sacrifice to make Yugoslavia, and in its collapse we lost it all. So its not gravment of Serbia but its creation was mistake from standpoint of one country that wanted to unify its nation into one country.

Greater Serbia depends on what you think when you say it. There is couple of ideas out there

[-]

BarskiPatzow@reddit

Greater Serbia isn’t something that anyone really seriously talks about since most of that territory was cleansed of Serbs in the ‘90s, except R.Srpska and Montenegro. As for R.Srpska some would like unification, some don’t care.

[-]

vivaervis@reddit

Which territory was cleansed of serbs?

[-]

BarskiPatzow@reddit

Most parts of Croatia, for example.

[-]

Antique_Birthday6380@reddit

If you ask Serbs about “Greater Serbia,” they’ll reliably inform you it’s a complete myth, positively imaginary, really, and not something any sensible person ever entertained. Ask them about “Greater Albania,” though, and suddenly it’s an chaotic, looming threat: “Oh no, the Albanians are terribly dangerous, they’re all plotting it.”

The real irony, of course, is that they seem to discuss “Greater Albania” far more enthusiastically than Albanians ever do, while “Greater Serbia” is treated like an awkward family anecdote best forgotten. After all, they did give it a go in the 1990s, didn’t quite work out, but not before thousands of innocent women and children paid the price for the experiment.

[-]

Imaginary_String_814@reddit

mostly a thing of the past but some parts could have been unified if Yugoslavia V1 and 2 never happen.

you can check the numbers of how many serbs you had before their expulsion in the surrounding republics (Kosovo/Croatia/Federation) and compare them to now.

[-]

True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

I mean people’s views of current geopolitical realities being influenced by their own history is nothing new, or specific to Serbia.

That is why some countries support Israel, even till this day.

[-]

oops_all_memes@reddit

While true, one would expect a person directly affected by multiple wars would be more cautious of aligning themselves with a warmongering regime indiscriminately bombing a smaller nation, yet a lot Serbs tend to view Russia as this bastion of freedom and hope. Hell, I had a multiple days long conversation here on this sub with a person explaining to me how Russia is the economic powerhouse and an embassy of Heaven on Earth and how absolutely necessary it is to level cities in Ukraine to fight the evil West

I'm not saying all of the people in Serbia share these views but it surprised me that I had this conversation multiple times irl with multiple different people. I hope that I just happened to meet the town crazies but I somehow feel like the views are somewhat popular

[-]

SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit

yet a lot Serbs tend to view Russia as this bastion of freedom and hope. Hell, I had a multiple days long conversation here on this sub with a person explaining to me how Russia is the economic powerhouse and an embassy of Heaven on Earth and how absolutely necessary it is to level cities in Ukraine to fight the evil West

because a lot of people, especially on the conservative side, are dumb as absolute bricks

the same reason you have tankies in general

also half of them are in our current government

[-]

PitonSaJupitera@reddit

Support for Russia is purely functional of their opposition to US and the West. Assad lost his charm when he fled and was no longer useful in that sense.

[-]

deaddyfreddy@reddit

Support for Russia is purely functional

or disfunctional.

Do you know there’s a saying in Russian: "Just to spite my grandmother, I’ll freeze my ears off"?

[-]

True-Blacksmith4235@reddit

I mean, most people do not see Russia as some power house from the east on its way to save us.

Because it is simply not true.

If anything, Serbs are getting disillusioned with Russians, as more and more of them move to Serbia.

a shit ton of them are in Kosovo as well, because heaven forbid it's not plastered with Četnik shit and a gazillion Serbian flags

[-]

Majmunovic_Zdravolju@reddit

kolko drugosrbijanaca jebovasbogdavasnejebo

[-]

Barbak86@reddit

Happening right now.

They are very open overall but 'smart' about where and when to be open about it.

Why would I be jealous of a country and a people that pride themselves on murdering others and genocide?

[-]

MoneyLaunderX@reddit

New US administration under Trump is very supportive of RS, as opposed to previous ones, and this is evident by lifting of sanctions and numerous visits to RS by various delegations.

Most important thing about RS independence to keep in mind is that the government is doing it, and the government is democratically and legally elected.

This means that their actions are an accurate manifestation of the will of people, meaning citizens of RS, which falls under category of legitimate self-determination.

For countries like EU for example to dispute it would mean that they're violating their own principles and also it would be pointless because if its the people who want it, then they'd just be delaying the inevitable.

This is the reason why EU had a very minimal, practically non-existent response to SNSD's pro-independance moves in last couple of years.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

There is no such thing as "will of the people" in this case and according to the Dayton agreement, which Serbs have signed and have committed themselves to upholding, no entity can be independent. How many lives are you willing to risk for this project?

[-]

DartVejder@reddit

There totally is will of the people.

Srpska is officially an entity, but practically a functional state with government and institutions that are recognised as legal and legitimate, and this government has jurisdiction over both the territory and the people, who are its citizens.

So if RS itself is legitimate, then obviously the citizens and their will are as well. It doesn't need to be specified as it would be redundant.

As for Dayton Agreement and state constitution, it was necessary to exist as to uphold international law. In practical terms, this means no border change through war and violence, prosecution of war crimes and persons responsible and safe environment for refugees and displaced persons to return.

RS has committed and successfully upheld all of this and it's a process that was completed decades ago.

As for "risking lives" I presume that you're referring to potential new war that could break out.

This is not the case as RS independence, when it happens will be approved of by international community.

This means that they would, through OHR, settle Brcko arbitration and create constitutional changes that make independence legal.

FBiH cannot dispute it as OHR is a legal mechanism they recognise as legal and legitimate.

But of course you know all of this. It's the reason you curse Alija Izetbegovic for signing the Dayton at any opportunity you can.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

They aren't recognized as legal and legitimate anywhere in the world. They have no army, no foreign ministry, no recognition whatsover.

If you are so confident then by all means go right ahead and you will self-abolish in a heartbeat as the Americans themselves have said multiple times.

According to Dayton, no entity can gain independence. You don't even know what your own leaders signed. Without Dayton, the entity itself ceases to exist and it only still exists because of Dayton.

[-]

DartVejder@reddit

As I've said, RS independence will legally be in line with Dayton Agreement as international community, through OHR will make constitutional changes that approve it.

This is the reason why Haris Silajdzic asked for corridor to Gorazde in Dayton. Ordinarily you wouldn't need any corridors if it's all gonna be BiH, but even back then, he knew that state constitution cannot be relied upon and it's best to have the corridor now so that if RS leaves BiH, Federation can continue to function as a state and Gorazde won't be a problem.

Really if international community wanted an intact BiH above all else, the entire country would be the Federation, with RS being just 4 or 5 Serb cantons in between Croat and Bosniak ones.

The fact that RS is its own functional state, detached from Federation, is sufficient proof that international community always to seperate it at a later point in time.

Go read what a Chekhov's gun is. It's the same principle.

[-]

What you're saying now is a narrative that Federation's politicians and media tend to say when they talk about RS.

They see a loan and say "they must be collapsing" even though there's always been loans and it's no indication of a potential collapse that's actually unlikely as RS debt is in and around 50% which is considered normal.

What the Federation politicians and media are actually doing is saying what people in the Federation would like to hear, in an effort to increase popularity and reach.

It's a marketing trick. They want you to think RS is doing bad and that they have control over the situation so that you vote for them.

This is very clear with Dino Konakovic. When asked about the recent visit of Trump Jr to RS, his response is "Well, you know, to me Banja Luka and RS is part of BiH and my country and I see it as a benefit, it's a good thing he came and visited us"

He's literally gaslighting. Totally avoiding the implication of what Trumps support for RS might bring, which is what he's actually asked about.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

Your own politicians talk about the issue of huge debt and economic collapse, I'm not making up anything. I'm giving you the reality, not Serbian fairytales of conquest fed to you from birth while your politicians keep getting richer and you keep getting poorer until you eventually move abroad or die.

[-]

DartVejder@reddit

Sure, but that's politicians from the opposition. Their claims are of the same nature as those from Federation.

SNSD says that it's fine and that there's no collapse, however I don't blindly trust them either.

I trust my own critical thinking and pattern recognition.

If RS has been speculated to face economic collapse for decades now, and it has never happened, while the data shows that everything is normal, then obviously that speculation must be wrong.

Besides that's got nothing to do with our independence process, as union with FBiH doesn't bring any economic advantages and we wouldn't need any better situation for independence than we have now.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

You have no critical thinking. SNSD is directly responsible for the whole mess, Serbs living in poverty and massively leaving. The only ones still in denial about this are SNSD themselves, their voters and the media that they control.

The economic collapse hasn't been speculated for decades, only since 2020 or so.

There was never any union with FBIH, that's just part of the lies that you believe in and that are fed to you from birth. You can thank the FBIH for keeping the cash flowing for decades despite you still having among the lowest economic standards of Europe because you spend your time threatening everyone and engaging in genocidal rhetoric instead of building a solid economy.

[-]

DartVejder@reddit

Whole region has the lowest standards of Europe. Data shows that we're no better or worse than Kosovo, Macedonia, FBiH... in terms of economy, development and standard of living.

We're actually doing better than FBiH. For example, live births in RS have remained consistent, in and around 9k in period of last 25 years, whereas with Croats in FBiH it fell from 4k to 2k and Bosniaks from 20k to 12k.

This is a clear indication that FBiH's brain drain problem is much more severe than in RS, and that people are leaving the country and starting families elsewhere much more frequently. Pretty sure that you too are in the diaspora.

You make a lot of claims but I don't see any logical assessments that confirm this, as if we're just supposed to take your word for it.

But my main point is that economic situation or standard of development is not exactly a factor with sovereignty, so I don't see where you're going with this. It has nothing to do with our initial conversation.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

The data is skewed and manipulated by SNSD for political gains. Meanwhile, one simply has to drive around your beloved entity to know what economical collapse, poverty and high emigration looks like. That's why the FBIH sends you millions every year.

Births have been dropping for Serbs too no matter how much your government likes to pretend they haven't.

I don't ask for people to take my word for it, one has to look at economic parameters and talk to people outside their pro-SNSD bubble to realize how dire the situation is.

Economic situation or standard of development is not a factor of sovereignty? Are you 5 years old? How do you expect to survive as an "independent state" when you can't even finance yourself on your own?

[-]

DartVejder@reddit

I've already gone over everything you've just written. You haven't added any new arguments to the conversation.

[-]

rainbow_quest_fan@reddit

Serbian here... Yes, it is mainly young boys and the elderly but is is still very noticeable

[-]

determine96@reddit

But how serious it is ?

Because for example in Bulgaria some people still count when speaking historically the lands which were mainly included in "San-Stefano" Bulgaria as Bulgarian.

Like how in WW1 we freed North Dobrugea, Macedonia, Aegean Thrace and such, but nobody speaks about those lands as Bulgarian today, exept Macedonia mainly, but it's more about the history of the land and the people, but more like "Leave the be if they stop stealing our history" and such.

[-]

rainbow_quest_fan@reddit

And if we're going by that logic before Bulgaria even existed, Serbia had those lands but that was in the medieval period before the ottoman empire took over and those wars happened but... it's mainly believed that Kosovo is still a part of Serbia even though eugenically speaking it's more Albania than its Serbia.

Although I do have a tendency to stay away from anyone who says anything about such regional disputes because if they care at all than they care too much

[-]

determine96@reddit

And if we're going by that logic before Bulgaria even existed, Serbia had those lands but that was in the medieval period before the ottoman empire took over and those wars happened but...

They're hoping on continuing with the genocide and ethnic cleansing once the US pulls out of Europe and their daddy Putin gives the ok.

So no, it's definitely not a thing of the past as it's embedded into the Serbian ideology. No matter which party may rule, it stays the same.

[-]

Ancient-Song-8428@reddit

Wow, so intense hate speach! Why so much hatred generalisation?

[-]

Imaginary_String_814@reddit

what hatred ?

wtfisthissssssssssss@reddit (OP)

I apologize if it offended you in any way, shape or form. I’m just interested in locals opinion and whether the society still consider this a dream or it’s something from the past that’s rather looked down on.

I’m happy to take it down if it offends anyone.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

They very much do, 90%+ Serbs are in favor of that. They'll of course lie and pretend they aren't but people aren't dumb anymore.

[-]

Vajdugaa@reddit

Lets give you benefit of the doubt and assume you are right. Why is there no ultranationalistic party in power of Serbia in the last 30 years? Koštunica, Đinđić, Tadić, even Nikolić and Vučić left Šešelj because of his greater Serbia fixations. Why did not Serbs elect Šešelj as their leader if 90% support him according to you?

[-]

PasicT@reddit

There is no ultranationalistic party in power of Serbia in the last 30 years because there doesn't need to be one. People like Kostunica, Dindic, Nikolic, Vucic all share the same ideas as Seselj does, they just disagree on the methods and how quickly those policies can be applied.

Ultimately, all of those politicians think Kosovo should not be a country, they all think that there was no genocide in Srebrenica, they all think that the genocidal entity that currently exists should be an independent state, they all hate Croats and Albanians, they all think that Bosniaks are in fact "Serbs of islamic faith" who should not have a country and should instead be "sent back" to Turkey etc. etc.

[-]

Vajdugaa@reddit

[-]

LenaLena93@reddit

You are not telling it like it is.

Your only purpose is to come and parrot the same things every time you see something Serbia related.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

Tell me, which European capital city has hundreds of murals in honor of war criminals and convicted war criminals? Which European capital has this in its city center:

[-]

RebootAndPray@reddit

That graffiti has been removed.

[-]

PasicT@reddit

This isn't a graffiti, actual graffitis and murals in honor of war criminals are literally protected by police now. That's Serbian society in a nutshell.

[-]

RebootAndPray@reddit

No, that mural has also been removed like years ago lol

[-]

PasicT@reddit

What is your source and when was this picture taken? It's not like this is the only mural in Belgrade in honor of a convicted war criminal, there are hundreds of them which HAVEN'T been removed and won't be removed.

[-]

RebootAndPray@reddit

A minority most likely engages it but it's a belief is slowly going away, it's common especially with average divorced 45+ year olds who go to betting machines and other Facebook boomers.

well,

I'm by no means "expert" on Serbian history.

but it's strange, to me, that Serbia decided to "form" Yugoslavia.

I wonder, do Serbian nationalists/patriots have a "favourable" view of it?

what sort of demographics view it favourable, & vice-versa.

it is a failed "experiment" not unlike USSR, & (from the perspective of many Russian nationalists) USSR practically amounted, to occupation.

[-]

RebootAndPray@reddit