i'm tired boss
Posted by heavensblood12345@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 76 comments
I've been working as a flight instructor for the past 2 years and i'm starting to get over it. I was at a job fair recently and to say the least, it was absolutely brutal. For context, i'm an instructor somewhere in between 1200-1500 hours with no multi experience and many of these companies I spoke to looked past my total time and are more interested in multi engine ifr experience. Not only that, but the treatment and disrespect I received from some of these companies was embarrassing. Safe to say the market isn't good right now, but it especially isn't good for flight instructors with over 1000+ total time.
Right now, the best thing I can do is find some copes, it's the only thing I can do. I just want to escape this cyclical grind. I know i'm not in the same boat here and there are others like me. How do you cope through these times??
Cascadeflyer61@reddit
Consider thinking out of the box, go to Alaska or the Caribbean. Do some research, and go! Don’t send a resume, everyone sends a resume, I used to be a Chief pilot, and most people I hired walked through the door at my 135 outfit in St Thomas.
It’s never been an easy business , except post Covid. I believe showing up and shaking a hand still matters. The formula of instruction then regional seems to be slowing, and with fuel prices may slow more.
Fly to Anchorage and knock on doors, ok send the resumes first. I went to High School in Anchorage, I got my private pilot written passed in a ground school class as a High school student. Aviation is a way of life up there. Lots of small operators. My buddy started flying 207’s up in Alaska, they put him in a King Air, and they eventually sent him to school for his helicopter ratings!
I guess this post is for a lot of guys looking and just sending resumes. Be a little different, quite frankly I preferred hiring guys who went the extra mile.
Disastrous-Trash1025@reddit
I’m not a pilot but do you need a holiday and a bit of a quiet break?
Perhaps go on a few day hike without Reddit (swap your phone for a dumb phone).
Unfortunately from reading the subs, you don’t sounds like you’re doing anything wrong and it’s just the industry. I’m hearing from your post that you’re discouraged and need a bit of a pick me up, it’s ok we all get there at times, need a hug and reassurance.
I can’t give you the hug and I don’t know enough about the industry to give you reassurance, but I’d advise you to take a holiday (I’m guessing you haven’t had one since you started ppl) and just relax a bit.
Bowzy228@reddit
I don’t know how things are for fresh commercial pilots in Canada at the moment but here in the U.S people will kill for the instructor gig that you currently have. Keep building those hours and get some multi time as well ASAP.
Mercury4stroke@reddit
It’s the exact same here as in the states
Own_Water5524@reddit
This is the correct answer
PontiusThe-AV8Tor@reddit
1st things first add this to your preflight checklist!
You have so far survived 100% of every day you though was shite!
You have your commericals, you have your instructors, you have your hours now you need to get some realisation. You know the world doesnt owe you a living and you have no right to get any job. They hire you when they need you not when you need them.
They just all told you the same thing, love the hours, yes you are basically qualified we want multi hours. When someone tells you something listen!!!
I have had this conversation with literally hundreds of pilots over the years. Once you hit the limits of your current scenario change it up! Here is current scenario you TT = 1200hrs all SE save 50-100hrs you used to get your MEIR. You also likely have 500-1000hrs light aircraft instruction. This is great NOW you are ready for the next level and if you dont level up you will get stuck.
You can now fall into one of the three biggest traps in aviation OR you can pull up a sandbag and listen! :
Traps:
1. The SE pilot > 1000+ hrs VFR who doesn't move to ME/IR
The Turbo prop pilot > 1500+hrs TP who doesn’t go to jets
The light jet pilot of a jet UNDER 25-50tonnes > 1000+hrs who doesn't move to Airbus/Boeing narrow or bigger
Those pilots get stuck for years i met guys with 10,000hrs Dash 8 who couldn't get an interview for a FO ab initio job on B737 for YEARS. Same with CRJ and ERJ pilots who dont leave once they have the hours.
Some profiles are weird if you are a 5000hrs FO on the B737 and not a Captain people will think you have failed or are not capable. If you are a 5000hrs B787 or B777 or A350 FO no one bats an eyelid.
If you are a 3000hr pilot who has only ever flown TPs and do not move getting onto jets just gets harder and harder as employers would rather have and do hire in UK a 250hr out of the factory FO onto their B737 as they are easier to train and wont bitch about not being a captain for 1 year later!'
So here it is, if it is not where you wish it to be then you ned to go find it. If that means that you move to another city, county, state, province, country or continent then that is what you do! If you don't want to do that or think that price is too onerous then you wil get out of it what you are putting into it!
You have reached the threshold experience wise of how much you are gaining career advancement wise no one ever is going to say if you had had 2000hrs SE instruction we would have hired you over 1000hrs. However if you have 1000hr SE instruction and 1000hrs MEIR then you are a shoe in!
The commercial world is ME/IR you have finished the warm up and you've done a good job 50% of those who started with you fallen by the wayside either medically, moneywise, desire wise or aptitude wise. The remainder ie your peer group ALL have 1000+hrs they all have a fATPL or CPL ME/IR and they are almost all instructors on light aircraft with 500-1000hrs instruction my suggestion. Hit the firs real aviation milestone that matters ie 1500hrs TT and have every piece of paper you can get NOW not later not I'm waiting for the right time get it NOW as tomorrow someone will say i just lost 30 pilots at JAZZ or Porter or Encore etc to and Emirates recruitment drive and some agency will say I need someone who can start on Monday!!!
Seen it a gazillion times over the decades!
Have you got Class 1/2/3/4 instructor do you have SAMRA, SARON! Get it done! do it now! whilst you are studying carry on until you hit your 1500hrs then pack your bags and get around people until someone hires you on ME (worst case) ME/IR, (next best) or go international if you have a Canadian ATPL you can come fly at many Middle Eastern, African and Far Eastern airlines as an FO on B737/A320 et al.
I know many Canadian pilots who I met doing just that around the world.
Or you can wait for opportunity to come and knock on your door and rather like the chances of that hot girl round the corner you saw the other day knowing on your door you may be waiting for some time!
Fortune favours the Brave! Go and get it don't wait for it to come to you! Bonne chance!
Mercury4stroke@reddit
Just saw a job ad today for Maldives Twin otter float pilots. Worth a look, no float experience required but you need a float rating. Take a look around, it’s a big planet. If the North American market is failing you, go somewhere else where recruiters at job fairs don’t ignore you.
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
thanks for the write up, really needed this. I know it's a waiting game now and i'm definitely going to make the most out of my time while waiting. My ATPL exams are already done and I would like to focus on upgrading to a class 2 for sure. Moving out of the country really isn't an option considering the recent ATPL requirements change which restricts my license. I am not sure about moving to another country yet, but I am still open to it if it comes to it.
thatgirlwhoflys@reddit
I feel you brother. I’m somewhere between flight instructor and legacy and feeling the same way. It’s diabolical how some recruiters at these job fairs treat applicant with below 10,000 jet PIC time … for entry level positions that .. even in a shitty economy.. are still ENTRY level pilot positions. The job market is awful right now, for everyone. In a couple years it’ll swing the other way, hopefully sooner. Use the job fairs to make friends who can be your letters of recommendation. Collect those, they’re as valuable as education
Far-Desk1199@reddit
Bro become a firefighter you work very less and get paid pretty well for working 3 days a week
BrtFrkwr@reddit
Remember those people who treated you badly. Aviation is a small world and you may run across them again.
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
I know, which is why I didn't confront them or show any hostility. They were well established in the industry anyways with good connections, so it'd be stupid if I did such a thing.
Also one of them gave a lecture reminding us of how small the industry is saying something like "if you do anything stupid or lie, it's just one phone call away from ruining your career".
Staffalopicus@reddit
“One phone call away from ruining your career” what a petty power tripping clown to say something like that
BrtFrkwr@reddit
You may be one phone call away from ruining that jerks career in the future.
Jhorn_fight@reddit
I know I’m early in the process having only ppl and instrument but everything I have read or seen in the past year has stressed multi xc / multi instrument time. I feel like companies are screaming it from the top of their lungs yet daily there are posts of people saying they can’t get hired and oh btw I only have 50 multi time. Like I know it isn’t easy but I feel like the answer is in front of you
The__Stig_@reddit
Multi time can be difficult to get. The only realistic way to build it at first is to instruct multi, which isn’t necessarily easy to do. There is not a huge demand for multi instructors.
druuuval@reddit
I met a guy in the FBO from ATP recently who is working on his IR in a Seminole. I’m still not sure what the path is based on how he described it but essentially it’s multi for the initial commercial. I know im gonna spend less but that woulda been a tough path to say no to if I knew how long it was gonna take to stay local.
The__Stig_@reddit
See I don’t know why you would do that though, doing IR and com in a Seminole would be hideously expensive. Like unless your daddy is Jeff bezos idk how that is gonna work out.
I mean when I just got my multi add on rating that was bad enough. Kinda made me feel sick to see the money drain that quickly.
And I’m pretty sure companies are going to want to see you with multi pic time, I’m not sure how that works when you get your com in a multi, how much of that is logged as pic? Or is there a huge amount of wasted training time that is just logged as instruction received? I’m curious about that.
Zim35@reddit
It is stupid expensive, but most of the time ends up as PIC. You do a private multi add-on, and then all your IR including XC and Comm flight training is Multi time and is PIC. After the Comm Multi, you do a Commercial Single Engine Add-on to get back to the normal progression. Or you spend some more money to get your MEI as your initial, then CFI/II add-ons after that
ltcterry@reddit
“Train in a twin” is not an uncommon path.
I did AMEL as Private add on and later initial airplane Commercial. I flew the solo bits of 61.129 solo. Great experience.
I did Private, Instrument, and Commercial for an Army Pilot in a Seminole. He got 33 hours ME w/ 23 PIC.
fly123123123@reddit
What you need is easy to know. How to get it is much harder. Multi time is expensive. Very few students want to pay for multi time, and many instructors want to instruct because they need the hours.
JustAnotherDude1990@reddit
You looked at the cost of multi time yet?
phlflyguy@reddit
Was your bad experience with recruiters at the Sun N Fun show, by chance?
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
No this was at Toronto, Canada.
Old-Trouble-8830@reddit
What advice would you give to me as a struggling CFI student? Would you recommend I continue with CFI double i and MEI? Or call it now get my comm multi and get out of school before wasting more money? and maybe find a job using comm?
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
If you're pretty close to getting your CFI, just finish it. Then look for some CFI jobs and focus on your other licenses/ratings. That's the direction I took and by the time I reached 1000 hours, I started to focus on my multi/IR which gives me more time before it expires.
Best of luck!
Skiddledew@reddit
Back in 2013 when I hit 1500 hours, I was flying a Lear 35 for an air ambulance operation in South Florida. I had multi-engine jet time (SIC) and some international experience, and felt like I had a strong resume compared to CFIs out here.
I went to a career fair hoping to get on with Compass. I started talking to a female HR manager and she was looking over my resume. Not exaggerating, a female pilot walked up behind me and my resume got handed off right away to an FO who was helping with recruiting.
First question he asked was how many checkride failures I had. Then it turned into a bunch of elimination type questions.
That was the end of that.
For context, I had two oral failures (CMLx2 @ ERAU) in my entire career. One I didn’t agree with. I later interviewed at Republic and was told straight up that I wouldn’t pass training.
I ended up going to PSA instead, and eventually made it to UPS. Now I’m flying the 747.
It took me about six years to get from that air ambulance job to UPS, and it was completely worth it.
Keep pushing, even when it sucks, you’ll find your niche eventually.
jtyson1991@reddit
Wait, you're saying you failed the CMEL oral twice?? I've never heard of that??
hear4research@reddit
Perspective is important. I can’t be a career pilot because of color deficiency. I have to have a job in sales… wanna trade?
Cool_Month7100@reddit
was it in Toronto? I was at a job fair too and same experience tbh
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
yeah, what are you sitting at rn?
Cool_Month7100@reddit
1200 TT 31 Multi 😔
OtterVA@reddit
If you have no multi experience you don’t meet the minimums for many companies. Get your multi and start adding multi instruction into the mix.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Doesn't Canada have a pilot shortage? At least according to some posters here one would figure it shouldn't be hard to find a job up there. Or is that a lie just like it was down here for the most part?
astral__monk@reddit
It's an ATPL shortage, not a pilot shortage.
OP is unfortunately finding out that there is a real glut of entry level pilots all fighting for the same "next step" and a limited industry out there that actually needs someone at that experience level.
The unfortunate reality is that the industry has been like this stage more often than not.
At some point OP is going to need to suck up their pride, leave the GTA or whichever city they're in, and grind out an entry level multi position somewhere up north or otherwise undesirable to live.
If they have nothing to set them apart experience wise from the hundreds of other pilots just like them that they are competing against, then they need to go find the work that nobody else wants to do.
PLIKITYPLAK@reddit
Ahh, I see. So kind of like the US with the flood of new pilots
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
Loool! Ain't no "pilot shortage" here. Just a shortage of experienced pilots to fill the left seat of a king air or 737.
Nearby_Context_1998@reddit
I found most schools overwork and underpay CFIs significantly. Sorry to hear it OP!
pattj91@reddit
My flight school gets flooded with CFI’s résumé’s every week. I know of CFI’s who have been job hunting for their first CFI gig and been looking for 8+ months. I know it sucks, but perspective matters. Comparison is the thief of joy in this industry.
Fit_Midnight_3927@reddit
Well thats too damn bad! Reference to Holes the movie.
solacestudios97@reddit
Why do you have that many hours and no multi experience or turbine experience? You’re trying to do the race with one arm behind your back I got hired at 1620 hours CFII for 975 of those, single engine turbine PIC the until 1620 was RATP at 1000 but it paid off, ended up flying a 767. Had about 90 hours of multi time in there too.
thatgirlwhoflys@reddit
I feel you brother. I’m somewhere between flight instructor and legacy and feeling the same way. It’s diabolical how some recruiters at these job fairs treat applicant with below 10,000 jet PIC time … for entry level positions that .. even in a shitty economy.. are still ENTRY level pilot positions. The job market is awful right now, for everyone. In a couple years it’ll swing the other way, hopefully sooner. Use the job fairs to make friends who can be your letters of recommendation. Collect those, they’re as valuable as education
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
100%
skyHawk3613@reddit
What kind of disrespect? What company’s disrespected you? Thats not cool
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
It's honestly nothing worth sharing about, I can PM you the details if you're curious?
planegoeswoosh@reddit
He asked if he could have a job and they said no
heavensblood12345@reddit (OP)
Loooool were it so easy
Ancient-Dust3077@reddit
Why is multi engine experience so important?
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Hell, why is airplane experience important at all? Why not just drive a bus? That's relevant enough!
Ancient-Dust3077@reddit
Honestly we start a ppl in a multi and do all our training forward in a multi as well
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Ah yes, double the price for entry.
Ancient-Dust3077@reddit
yes sir why the hell not
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
Because their companies fly multi engine?
Ancient-Dust3077@reddit
How many hours should you have before applying to airlines?
ATrainDerailReturns@reddit
My flight school has lost 9 people to the airlines this year
I’d be shocked if less than 8 of them had 200 multi hours. I know for a fact two had over 400 multi hours
AstronautContent9515@reddit
Because 121 operations are multi engine
junebug172@reddit
I had 1900 dual given and 500 multi back when I finally got hired by a commuter.
AP_Boopy@reddit
I was in the same boat 2 years ago, I had 1700 hours and wen to a FAPA job convention feeling worse about myself after. 4 months later I got a job working 135 and it’s been the best job I could ask for. Lots of us newer FO’s have had to go through the same thing. Head up solider!
dakk33@reddit
I’m assuming you have your ME rating? Start trying to make friends at all the airports around where you live. Help change oil, change break pads, just make connections. Be genuine, not like you’re looking for anything from them. Opportunities will arise that way.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
Ok
EnvironmentalDiet552@reddit
Bet you’re fun at parties….
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
What I said is the truth.
Every day people come on this sub and write a pity post but their situation won’t change unless they do something to change it
SpicyMo@reddit
get your ATPL through instructing and try to teach multi-IFR, no other way
kaoandy1125@reddit
With the new rules i dont think you can get ATPL instructing
OgopogoLover@reddit
You can get it. A note is attached saying it isn’t ICAO compliant in effect granting you a restricted ATPL without the privileges of a full ATPL. When you complete your upgrade or on the required compliant platform the note is removed and full ATPL privileges are granted.
kaoandy1125@reddit
So what privilege does a non ICAO compliant ATPL have? Basically IATRA?
OgopogoLover@reddit
Basically. Also locks in the SAMRA and SARON so you don’t have to write them again.
docNNST@reddit
This is solid advice
Grayhawk845@reddit
Best way into the airlines. Get your A&P. Foot in the door and then move up from there. Yeah life is going to suck for a little bit
Diegoandre007@reddit
To be fair a&p is 2 more years and 20-60k extra in schooling
AutomagicJackelope@reddit
Short answer: you cope by education and adaptation. You've just learned what they want, now you have to adapt.
Longer answer:
You are one of thousands of applicants vying for the attention of recruiters. And I know you know that multi-engine time, in IFR, is not only attractive in a candidate, it's usually vital to success in the next step of the career.
If I'm a recruiter, I'm sorting through thousands of applicants, trying to be fair to each one, but I need them to meet me in the middle; I need them to be qualified for the job I have available, and with multi-engine IFR experience being king, I may not pay as much attention to you. And that might come off as disrespect. Unqualified candidates are a time suck. Time is the one thing we can't create more of.
So you've had a negative experience and now you know what you need to do. Shift your focus to what the job wants, so you can become the applicant they need.
I wish you the best of luck; it's a tough time right now.
whydidilose@reddit
Are there other factors that you take into consideration? Age, degree, previous work experience, volunteer work, etc.?
Or is everything trumped by multi time?
OgopogoLover@reddit
Keep your chin up! It was hard when I went through, for reference instructors on average taught for 3-5 years most instructors were class 2 or 1s before they went to CMA, PASCO, JAZZ etc where You would then spend a number of years there. The trick is to set small goals for yourself and work towards them! If you are a class 4/3 work on getting to class 2, write your SAMRA and SARON and remember you are getting paid, I know not very much, to fly. Network and be a good to your students, other instructors and references. This industry really is about those references until you get more experience. If you are really down and have some cash, get your float rating and work a few seasons on floats to change things up.
velosnow@reddit
Ebb and flow mon frère. Hang in there and you'll get there. Focus on the fun parts of your life as work certainly isn't everything.
I know it's easy to say from my position now, but as a product of the Lost Decade™️ I do feel your pain. Get that multi done stat and start teaching in the twin. Become a check airman at your school, get involved in safety programs, start volunteering for something you truly believe in, beef up that resume however you can.
Suspicious-Gur-8453@reddit
I'm sorry that you weren't treated well, but yeah the market isn't super great right now. Experience expectations eb and flow with what the industry is going through. But yeah, multi Instrument is important
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I've been working as a flight instructor for the past 2 years and i'm starting to get over it. I was at a job fair recently and to say the least, it was absolutely brutal. For context, i'm an instructor somewhere in between 1200-1500 hours with no multi experience and many of these companies I spoke to looked past my total time and are more interested in multi engine ifr experience. Not only that, but the treatment and disrespect I received from some of these companies was embarrassing. Safe to say the market isn't good right now, but it especially isn't good for flight instructors with over 1000+ total time.
Right now, the best thing I can do is find some copes, it's the only thing I can do. I just want to escape this cyclical grind. I know i'm not in the same boat here and there are others like me. How do you cope through these times??
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