Spirit Airlines seeks U.S. government aid as oil spike threatens turnaround
Posted by Glimmer_III@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 120 comments
Curious what this community thinks how this will play out for NK, and other ULCCs.
Viking_Musicologist@reddit
To be fair they didn't hedge fuel costs back before the Middle East became sociopolitically volatile.
They might have to resort to complete liquidation in order to pay back their creditors.
Kanyiko@reddit
... anybody willing to take bets on how many airlines will go bust (US and globally) over this small government-induced fuel price hiccup this summer?
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
One. Spirit. But they would have been gone anyways
Easy_Money_@reddit
Domestically: Spirit is fucked, Frontier is fucked but no one talks about it because of how fucked Spirit is, and JetBlue is probably fucked but can maybe declare bankruptcy or sell some of its more valuable assets. The rest have been flirting with profitability for long enough that they’ll survive
ekkidee@reddit
Norse is cutting routes.
Kanyiko@reddit
... It's going to be an interesting summer, that's for sure.
xinf3rn0x@reddit
I was recently awarded a flight credit for Spirit. Anyone know if they shut down what are the chances I get compensated?
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
Zero
chrisridge741@reddit
Basically 0. They don’t owe you cash
Glimmer_III@reddit (OP)
That's a question for r/bankruptcy.
I'm personally unclear if you would be considered a secured, or unsecured, creditor.
natethegreek@reddit
Nope, if nobody will buy it you auction off the parts and hope to make creditors whole.
OrangePilled2Day@reddit
Delta’s CEO raising prices another 20% at how gleeful this thread is about losing one of the only ULCCs in the country.
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
They were dying off anyways
Historical_Term2454@reddit
So if we pulled out of the unconstitutional Iran war, Spirit would have a chance, gas would go back to $2.50, no more troops would die, and we’d save $1B per day???
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
No. Iran would will win and lil will be stuck at $100 per barrel
wes741@reddit
Did I miss some news? Did we not just end it earlier today?
PM_ME_YOUR_CATS_PAWS@reddit
The strait is closed, again. Wouldn’t be surprised if this became a protracted issue. Not necessarily a protracted conflict, but just the issue of the strait not staying open
Historical_Term2454@reddit
Negative
GeauxFarva@reddit
Run a trash business, this is the result. I HATE corporate welfare short of some cataclysmic societal event. Not saying that the big 3 won’t benefit by the exit of Spirit, but whatever Spirit brings to the table besides ridiculous fight videos and memes isn’t worth it.
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
Other low fare carriers will benefit from spirit going out of business.
sofixa11@reddit
The aviation sector has had 3-4 of those in 6 years - COVID and post-COVID supply shocks, P&W engines not existing, current oil price explosion.
AccomplishedBad7253@reddit
Too bad. No bailout
randytc18@reddit
As tax payers we should ask our government for relief from what the government is causing.
Business can be hard, plan accordingly.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
But who could have possibly anticipated that aviation is susceptible to geopolitical strife and price shocks? What, do you expect them to keep some sort of reserve in case of a rainy day? They need that money to feed their stock buybacks, you heartless fiend! /s
Seriously, though, U.S. airlines sunk 96% of their free cash flow into buybacks and they expect us to pick up the tab every time there’s a hiccup in operations? Entitlement or incompetence, neither is a good look for them. They deserve bankruptcy or nationalization if they’re that bad.
fly_awayyy@reddit
I mean normally I’m with this…but this wasn’t the full picture with Spirit. They’ve been plagued by plane groundings due to engine issues with Pratt and Whitney. They’ve had 60-70+ planes grounded at any given time while still obligated to make payments on them. I’m sorry but that will really upset any airline.
sofixa11@reddit
Airlines should sue P&W for damages. A few have already gone out of business over their engines unavailability, and Airbus got compensation.
I_am_Mun_C@reddit
Airlines are suing P&W. The problem is that the damages are so great (we are talking 10 to 11 figures) that P&W would go insolvent which is a worse outcome, so right now the airlines are settling for payment plans from P&W for pennies on the dollar.
sofixa11@reddit
P&W are owned by RTX, a company with $80B in yearly revenue, $7B in net profit. They can afford a lot of compensation for their collosal fuck up.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
I’ve heard of that, and it surely goes a long way towards explaining why Spirit was the first domino to fall, but this isn’t the airlines’ first rodeo. If these fuel prices continue for much longer, there’s gonna be more coming to the government for a handout, I bet.
fly_awayyy@reddit
I mean with these bankruptcy proceedings they’ve been shedding themselves of those airplanes and obligations each time. But I’m afraid the balance sheet damage is already done
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droxile@reddit
Spirit did a buyback?
OrangePilled2Day@reddit
This is so stupid. Yall are gleeful about even higher airfares if we lose an ULCC to insolvency.
JohnHazardWandering@reddit
I got bad news for you buddy, we chose the government that did this to us.
randytc18@reddit
Sorry I didn't vote for cheeto
JohnHazardWandering@reddit
Neither did I, but it's the decision that "we" made.
NoSwimmers45@reddit
What if we form We The People, LLC? Then we can apply for government bailouts like a corporation too!
BLARTYMACMUFFIN@reddit
You think the government will admit a single mistake?!
Suspicious-Grade-60@reddit
They should just stop eating avocado toast and pull themselves up by their bootstraps
randytc18@reddit
Don't forget they need to make coffee at home.
deiprep@reddit
To be fair coffee at home using an aeropress tastes significantly better than the stuff at Starbucks I’ll give you that
Shootforthestars24@reddit
Starbucks is just sugar and syrup
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
And water. Don't forget the water.
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
I fucking love pressed coffee.
Jazzlike_Upstairs_16@reddit
Is the taste better than a pour over? I use a chemex. I have looked into an aeropress, but I’d have to get the all metal one, which is $169 — which is something I can’t justify.
BubbaTheGoat@reddit
Sure, it starts there, but then you look at that moka pot. You take one home and really like the stronger coffee it makes, and start experimenting with ways to make it a little bit bolder and richer.
Next thing you know you have an espresso machine, but it’s junk because it doesn’t allow for variable pressure profiling. You need the new PID-enabled machine so you can program your own control loop. And let’s not even talk about Steam…
cat_tastic720@reddit
Or a $4,000 grinder, because it's all in the grind...
BubbaTheGoat@reddit
Grind Finer
ballimi@reddit
It also doesn't give you diabetes
reebokhightops@reddit
I’m pretty sure the diabetes comes from what you put in your coffee, and there are plenty of people that dump a fuckload of sugar into the coffee they make at home.
Economy_Link4609@reddit
A random handful of any dirt run through a percolator tastes better than Starbucks.
MmmSteaky@reddit
Oooh, edgy.
Economy_Link4609@reddit
What? I just like black coffee, Starbucks roasts are for mixing with a ton of milk and sweet stuff, it’s just not good at all as plain coffee.
randytc18@reddit
Yes. I love my home coffee. I've wanted to try a aeropress.
Poopy_sPaSmS@reddit
I mean, coffee at home is way cheaper and tastes WAY better.
_Sky_Lord_@reddit
Yeah, they don't deserve any aid after going bankrupt twice and then giving the CEO and the board large raises. They swindled shareholders out of their hard earned money. Let them burn.
chrisridge741@reddit
The government prevented them from being sold so they should bail them out. We can’t have more airlines going out of business. The big 3 are too much of a monopoly as it is
1320Fastback@reddit
What about the non-Airlines, like the rest of us?
chrisridge741@reddit
What?
techbro84@reddit
UA/AA Merger: Bad
JetBlue or Frontier & Spirit Merger: Good.
Spirit, a flying Waffle House, sells passengers in lower income brackets lowish cost tickets. Spirit struggled with yield, had no ability to sell higher yield seats (business/first) and they didn't transport cargo. The two most profitable segments in aviation? Business and Cargo.
JetBlue could have taken advantage of their gates, aircraft and leveraged their routes. It made sense. Spirit could operate in environments where oil prices were low as a major input wasn't eating into their profits; but, as the airline ages, secondary costs such as employee benefits and pension contributions rise; the price of fuel ate into their revenue and they didn't have a way to pivot to higher yield business lines.
You think the government is going to bail them out? Yeah, by finding a buyer. Not all airline mergers are bad. Some are good. Some are necessary.
When you say this, people throw Air Canada/Canadian, Ansett/ANZ or even America West and and US. But jeez, this was a miss when it wasn't approved.
Boeing367-80@reddit
It was a dumb, dumb, dumb idea, but should likely have been approved anyway. The combo would long since have been in Chapter 11, but that's OK.
Easy_Money_@reddit
JetBlue blew it, everyone knew their goal was to kill off a low cost competitor (which would hurt competition and consumers). ULCCs have been good at forcing airfares downward. The same administration/judiciary didn’t have any issues approving AS+HA
Boeing367-80@reddit
It's hard to say exactly what JetBlue's goal was because the plan never made any sense.
I_am_Mun_C@reddit
JetBlue’s goal was to kill the Frontier/Spirit merger that had been announced. Everyone forgets this.
TigerUSA20@reddit
Yeah Jet Blue and Spirit are very different with their consumer experience and how they price their tickets and extras. I don’t know how that would have ever worked to the benefit of both companies combined.
Now, a Spirit merger with Frontier or Allegiant would have been great. Technically it still could be if they could just write off the debt obligations and let the surviving entity start clean.
ArbiterofRegret@reddit
And Spirit’s shareholders knew that B6’s proposal would face way more antitrust issues over Frontier’s bid, which is why they extracted a huge breakup fee for when the obvious antitrust rejection came (it just turned out not to be a big enough fee). So now both airlines are up shit creek without a paddle since both Spirit and B6 got way unhealthier while trying to merge and B6 had to pay up a nearly $500M breakup fee for nothing.
There were genuine and obvious concerns about the exact issue around an upmarket carrier buying a ULCC and taking the ULCC’s lower fares out of the marketplace. The overall eventual outcome is “worse” bc both airlines might go under and really take capacity out of the market, but good antitrust policy is also not accepting arguments that “if we don’t do this the market will be worse off” (which is a common argument used by every merger candidate against antitrust suits), especially when there was a perfectly fine offer from another ULCC that didn’t have as clearly obvious antitrust issues.
Consumers are worse off because these airlines mismanaged their situations over the past decade - not bc the DOJ was being mean.
CellistMundane9372@reddit
"but good antitrust policy is also not accepting arguments that 'if we don’t do this the market will be worse off'"
Why not? I realize regulators can't accept the claim at face value. But when a credible analysis supports the claim that it's merger-or-maybe-bust, shouldn't that push in favor of approving the merger? Simply because one competitor is better than none?
JohnHazardWandering@reddit
Can't JetBlue buy the assets out of bankruptcy now?
fly_awayyy@reddit
JetBlue just borrowed $500M an hour ago against their airplanes lmao. In case if you haven’t seen they’re are in a dire hole them selves
sofixa11@reddit
Is there any airline that isn't, with the current oil prices?
fly_awayyy@reddit
United and Delta? The oil prices is just an event that made an unhealthy company even at more risk. JetBlues problems go deeper than oil prices.
sofixa11@reddit
Debatable. Ryanair are an extremely profitable and big airline (depending on what you count, top 3-5 in the world) on cheap passenger flights only.
jimbobzz9@reddit
How dare you sully Waffle House’s good name like that!
ppdeli@reddit
To be fair I’ve seen more roaches in WH than on spirit planes. But in either case the number is not zero
gefahr@reddit
Well in WH the kitchen is right there in front of you.
You can't see the cargo hold.
jimbobzz9@reddit
Listen here, Mr. Heath Inspector, if you were at a Waffle House, expecting to eat at some sort of sterile, allergen free environment, that’s on you buddy. You try keeping a pest attractant-free kitchen when you are open 24 hours a day 365 days a year.
audio-nut@reddit
Exactly. Waffle House has a product loved by their customers. Spirit is a means to an end.
broke_saturn@reddit
Exactly! Now that said I hope Spirit doesn’t cancel my flight in 2 weeks…..
audio-nut@reddit
You’re ficked. Book a backup on OA with points ASAP
broke_saturn@reddit
Well if they do cancel I’ll just drive. It’s 9h 45m to drive and would cost about the same, will just have to burn an extra vacation day.
Growly150@reddit
That's not a fair comparison. If UA or AA was on the verge of disappearing, I don't think people would be against a merger. If the option is Spirit shutting their doors, my opinion is a merger is somewhat better than a closure.
wearsAtrenchcoat@reddit
"A flying Waffle House"...
TheSpuff@reddit
A flying Waffle House isn't needed - they have teleporters now, haven't you heard?
imaguitarhero24@reddit
💀
LadyBrutal92@reddit
Currently sitting in OCC dying laughing
RecordEnvironmental4@reddit
The latter merger would just create a large national low cost carrier, UA/AA would be anticompetitive as collusion with Delta would be very easy.
abcpdo@reddit
pretty sure the most profitable segment in aviation is credit cards
audio-nut@reddit
Way overused and oversimplified phrase.
Dexcerides@reddit
I think both make since, AA isn’t doing too hot either
IM_REFUELING@reddit
Don't bring Waffle House into this, Waffle House kicks ass
Knerdedout@reddit
Who is buying stock! Lfg
landcruiser33@reddit
I’m unfamiliar with how this all works but is this the absolute last grasp and likely to fail?
EsquireRed@reddit
Yes
Empty-Let5085@reddit
@VCV
Good-Adhesiveness873@reddit
Bunch of welfare queens. They should just get a second job and stop complaining.
rd1z@reddit
I hope the moron DOJ judge that blocked the B6 merger feels good about his decision.
It’s not like Spirit themselves said in the filings that they’d struggle to survive on their own…..
Bad_Karma19@reddit
They are already sending planes to Victorville apparently. The end is probably really coming this time.
Balthazar1@reddit
Not saying they are not in trouble, but the planes to VCV is part of a sale that was negotiated previously.
Bad_Karma19@reddit
Ok, thank you. Had seen it floated Thursday on Twitter
Similar-Turnip2482@reddit
But everything is way more affordable and inflation is zero . Never had things so cheap or inflation so low. We are the best
pup5581@reddit
Affordability is for commies. MURICA
NumisKing@reddit
Well remember, affordability is a democrat hoax.
txhenry@reddit
It was when inflation was running at 9%.
sgeeum@reddit
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No-Leopard-6447@reddit
I want spirit to survive, but I don’t know that the gov can give spirit money without congress approval.
RogLatimer118@reddit
There was no turnaround to threaten.
KAugsburger@reddit
I am doubtful that Spirit will get any help from the US government. The only way I could see that happening is if it personally benefits people in the administration which seems unlikely given their finances. Spirit will probably liquidate in the near future unless they can convince creditors to give them a 11th hour reprieve and they can quickly turn around the business. It will definitely be tough to the ULCCs for the near future. There will be cuts of less popular routes. You will see some more mergers or liquidations in the ULCC space in the near future unless the prices for jet A back down quickly. I doubt that concept will die completely since there are so many people who choose a flight primarily upon price.
ekkidee@reddit
This would be corporate socialism.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
Here’s a concept, how about instead of suckling at the debt-burdened taxpayer’s teat, how about you just go bankrupt, raise prices, or sell the business?
Mr_Chicken_Parm@reddit
They did go bankrupt, twice. And they did sell the business when it was still sellable, no buyers anymore. The sale was blocked because spirit was deemed important to the industry to keep prices down for the consumer… Now I personally don’t support any government aid, but Spirit does have point.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
If Spirit is so important that it can’t be allowed to be sold or fail, and if the competition would be too consolidated if it were, it should just be nationalized. Alternatively, antitrust action could just create more competitors by breaking up larger airlines if the smaller players get winnowed away.
As it stands, I’m sick to death of the prevailing “privatize the gains, socialize the losses” mindset. It rewards bad behavior and poor planning.
Mr_Chicken_Parm@reddit
I agree that the big 3 should not have been allowed to happen and I think that’s the crux of the problem. Now we’re stuck with the govt not allowing mergers to preserve competition but the big 3 make it impossible for small airlines to succeed on their own. I don’t think any smaller airline can survive in the long term as they will inevitably succumb to the next downturn or be squeezed out. I agree with your second paragraph and share your frustration.
Captain_Mazhar@reddit
The regionals have to be broken off from the mainlines. Allowing them to co-brand has stifled the market to new entrants because they’re completely dependent on signing a deal with the big three.
The last time a regional grew up to a full mainline was Southwest.
GrafZeppelin127@reddit
What I’d be interested in seeing is an analysis of how many major and/or minor airlines would be needed in order to reach a theoretical optimum of stability and competitive choice between the two extremes: having far too many competitors, and thus suffering costs due to redundancy and lacking economies of scale, or having too few competitors, and thus suffering costs from oligopoly, price-fixing, and various anticompetitive practices and pressures, both intentional and inherent.
ScottOld@reddit
Spirit bankruptcy warnings happen more then putin threatening to blow everyone up nowadays
Billiam501@reddit
It's a fair ask, since the government prevented Spirit from selling itself when it had the chance. I still don't think we'll give them aid though.
GuttedFlower@reddit
Somehow, I knew this was coming.