When will MOSAIC make flying cheaper?
Posted by caelum52@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 63 comments
I’ve been looking at all of the major manufacturers such as Vans, Sling, Sonex (RIP) and none of them have really been doing much with the update updates due to MOSAIC.
I feel like there’s a real market to compete with Cessna, Piper, and Cirrus that don’t involve putting the plane together yourself. There should be plenty of planes now that are 200K, that performs similarly to certified aircraft
phliar@reddit
Take a look at what it costs to get an E-AB (Experimental, Amateur-Built) out the door. No manufacturer liability since you're the manufacturer, much lower labor costs since you provide most of the labor. Even with all that the average homebuilt in painted fly-away condition with basic instruments will be about $200K. How would a for-profit company do it for the same amount?
No problem! (As long as your budget is $400K) /s
mikepuyallup@reddit
Exactly, this is why I didn't buy the liability is the problem argument. Airplanes are expensive because they are hand built, in low volumes, from expensive parts.
SSMDive@reddit
Every Cessna 172 leaves the factory with an insurance policy on it that covers Cessna for 1m and it adds 100k to the cost for Cessna.
Liability is a pretty significant part of it.
Even_Ad8558@reddit
Care to share where you got this information?
SSMDive@reddit
Another poster provided a Forbes reference saying costs were 20-30%.
That 100k dollar claim was heard during an interview with a Cessna Executive during OSH.
But a quick google brought me this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Aviation_Revitalization_Act#:~:text=Those%20manufacturers%20reported%20rapidly%20rising,built%20and%20shipped%20that%20year.
‘Average cost of manufacturer's liability insurance for each airplane manufactured in the U.S. had risen from approximately $50 per plane in 1962 to $100,000 per plane in 1988, according to a report cited by the Bureau of Labor Statistics,[14][20] a 2,000-fold increase in 24 years.’
It has some additional resources listed sonyouncould dig deeper if you like.
Apprehensive-Gift-36@reddit
I have heard rumors of this and heard it may even be higher. This Forbes article says liability costs are 20-30% of a new aircraft. A cost that does not exist for experimental and home built. https://www.forbes.com/sites/erictegler/2021/04/28/prices-for-new-general-aviation-aircraft-may-be-pricing-pilots-out-of-the-market/
vagasportauthority@reddit
Technam announced a line of MOSAIC compliant aircraft.
ObjectiveSeaweed8127@reddit
The Spirit SE-1 is quite exciting and as inexpensive as I can imagine being possible. A factory built airplane for 70k. It is also a very pretty airplane. It only has one seat, but at that price and a sub 2 gph cruise it offers quite a value.
Hopefully someone will offer an equally exciting 2 seater.
Even_Ad8558@reddit
I’d argue that the most exciting aircraft on the market right now is the Scalewings SW-51. Not in anyway cheap but it’s got exciting and 2 seats nailed down pat.
KeyboardGunner@reddit
It's rumored that they are taking their 2 cylinder engine and turning it into a 4 cylinder to put in a 2 seat aircraft. Hopefully they can keep it under $100k.
SkippytheBanana@reddit
Apologies for my pessimism. Never
Majority of the cost of GA is due to liability litigation and low production rate. Unless they actually fix the liability issue then costs will never start coming down to fix the production rate issue.
countextreme@reddit
It's never made sense to me that the FAA has such a stringent, arduous, and incredibly expensive type certification program, and yet if there is a design issue that causes an accident, the manufacturer is on the hook instead of them. Doesn't instill confidence that the approval process is effective if they aren't accepting liability for signing off.
Choi0706@reddit
I agree. Someone also mentioned aircraft builders are building planes for the high end market, not the average Joe.
OracleofFl@reddit
Well, the first 100k is going into the engine and panel either way.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
Engine or panel
A four cylinder Lycoming purchased new outright is over $100K by itself
Bowzy228@reddit
What? 😳. I thought they were in the 40s?
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
This is the engine currently delivered with new C172s:
https://www.airpowerinc.com/enpl-rt9918
Currently $127,560 if you buy a new one without returning a used core, like an OEM would when they build an airplane.
An established OEM likely receives a volume discount, but I highly doubt they get these for less than $100K
Bowzy228@reddit
That’s insane. I don’t even wanna know about something like a Pratt & Whitney turboprop 😅
KeyboardGunner@reddit
Over a million now.
ThatOnePilotDude@reddit
They 100% are working on stuff, you just don’t see it and it isn’t public. The manufacturing part of MOSAIC comes out this July, and expect 6-24 months for OEMs to actually act on the rules. Keep in mind most of the requirements then shift from FAA approval to ASTM approval.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
That makes sense. All I want is a factory built RV 12. So I can go fast at a decent price without worrying about taking five years to build it or the quality of the plane itself
Turbulent_Juice_Man@reddit
I want a factory built RV14
EntroperZero@reddit
You and me both!
Puzzleheaded_Sea5976@reddit
I’m just looking forward to seeing the 1,320 lb weight restriction on the Sling 2/NGT to go away in July so I can carry another reasonably sized adult.
happytoreadreddit@reddit
You’re thinking of other models like rv7. Rv12 is their light sport model designed on the old rules. It’s already factory built.
kytulu@reddit
I want a 2 to 4 seat IFR capable plane that is less than $50K.
EntroperZero@reddit
Posted my other reply before I saw this, but there is an update for it this year, and their current lead time is about 5 months.
erik325i@reddit
Then buy one. Van’s has already been making and selling their factory built SLSA RV-12. The 2026 model will have improvements due to MOSAIC.
Puzzleheaded_Sea5976@reddit
THIS is the current best answer to the question. Right now, MOSAIC is only in effect for the pilot side of things, not the aircraft side. And I agree with ThatOnePilotDude, it will take a good 6 to 24 months to see how the manufacturers and market react.
bhalter80@reddit
Keep on mind Cirrus could dust off the designs for the G1/G2 SR20 and meet the speed and pax requirements
T-Dawg302@reddit
It'd be easier to just sell the SR10 than dust off the older designs
bhalter80@reddit
Wouldn't that just be the SR10?
Jwylde2@reddit
That part of MOSAIC hasn’t been passed yet. It’s set to pass in July 2026.
The part that expands sport pilot privileges passed last October.
caelum52@reddit (OP)
Oh wow, that’s my fault. I thought that the part that passed in October 2025 was inclusive of the updates for aircraft. That makes a lot more sense.
Mispelled-This@reddit
The entire thing passed last year, but there was a built-in delay for when each part went into effect because ASIs, DPEs, CFIs, builders, etc. need time to learn and adopt the new rules.
Even_Ad8558@reddit
No, that isn’t the reason. The reason is that ASTM consensus standards were not even close to complete and it was a bit of chicken and the egg problem. The F37 committee has been working their tails off to get final standards to the FAA this month for review and approval. It’s a race for the July deadline.
Bunslow@reddit
The manufacturers were really damned annoyed about the completely pointless yearlong delay, but better late than never. At least it passed at all....
Thomas-Ligotti97@reddit
I was confused too with all the MOSAIC phases there’s many conflicting reputable sources
ketralnis@reddit
And even then, aircraft design takes years
Mispelled-This@reddit
Yes, new designs that fully take advantage of the new limits will likely take years.
But the immediate goal was allowing kit builders (most with a “build assist” facade) to switch to honest factory build for their existing models, and for factory builders to paper recertify existing LSAs with higher max gross since it is widely known that they all lied to fit under the old limits.
Even_Ad8558@reddit
What kind of MOSAIC aircraft are you looking for? What is your mission? What do you consider cheaper? There are a number of SLSA manufacturers bringing out new models or updating existing models. Are they going to be cheaper than before MOSAIC? The answer is a resounding no. However they will be much cheaper to both purchase and operate than any new part 23 aircraft.
tms2x2@reddit
I don't know where people get the idea of aircraft for sale new at $200k. I just looked at kit for Vans RV10 and it's $90k for the kit. The you have to buy a 540 Lycoming outright, propeller, wheels and brakes, avionics. They estimate 800 to 1000 hours of labor.
skunimatrix@reddit
It's more like 1500 - 2000 hours even with quick build.
Turbulent_Juice_Man@reddit
No. At best it will make the cost rise slower. At best.
perispomene@reddit
Avgas is $5-9/gallon, Jet A is $5.50-$10, in my area. At $8/hr that's not going to make it "affordable" for a lot of people. We need more efficient engines and lighter airframes, regardless of the purchase price of the airplane.
MOSAIC should enable more light (composite) airframes, and more motor gliders developing into LSAs or glider design coming to larger bodies. I am not sure if this will translate into more airplane owners. These planes will also need to be stored somewhere.
perispomene@reddit
Cirrus is the only one that's really profitable and that's because they charge so much.
Perhaps the central European makers will get a boost from MOSAIC and put out more products.
320sim@reddit
Cirrus is not the only profitable manufacturer. Cessna reported a billion in profit last year. But Cirrus isn’t going to make a light sport anyway
perispomene@reddit
Textron doesn't break it down by segment, but I can't imagine single-engine aircraft are a sizable chunk of their 12B manufacturing revenue compared to jets and helicopters. They probably sell more in golf carts than they do in piston aircraft.
gamefreak32@reddit
Textron built how many aircraft last year? And how many were piston powered? And how many piston powered planes did they discontinue last year?
169 Helos 171 Jets 146 turboprops 322 pistons
Discontinued the Bonanza and Baron.
They didn't make $1 Billion on 322 pistons that sell for $750k to $2M.
saml01@reddit
Mosaic makes flying more expensive
mage_tyball@reddit
I'll give you one example.
The standards that the ASTM is approving for IFR MOSAIC aircraft requires full glass panels and an autopilot.
The ASTM rules are written by the people selling aircraft. There is on average zero interest in making anything cheaper.
Designer_Solid4271@reddit
Probably more accurate to ask when will it make it "less expensive" and not cheaper... You can fly cheaply now.
Fast-Government-4366@reddit
It never will.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
Not until someone figures out how to reign in rapidly-escalating engine costs
EntroperZero@reddit
Van's has an update to the RV-12iS SLSA for MOSAIC this year, which allows it to fly in actual IMC.
ltcterry@reddit
Never. That’s not the purpose.
Airplanes will never be cheaper until labor and insurance are cheaper. A lot cheaper. And when is that going to happen?
pilotjlr@reddit
That’s the neat thing, it won’t
Anthem00@reddit
It probably won’t. The liability is one of the largest driving factors for most manufacturers. Until that is capped, which it won’t because the attorneys are the legislators - not much will change
AGroAllDay@reddit
Cheaper? I’ve never seen this word before. Can you please define it for me?
PlanetMcFly@reddit
Flying and cheaper do not go together in my experience.
Regular-Schedule-168@reddit
Sonex is currently battling a bankruptcy. Honestly, MOSAIC might have the opposite effect of making flying cheaper.
AWACS_Bandog@reddit
my sweet summer child
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I’ve been looking at all of the major manufacturers such as Vans, Sling, Sonex (RIP) and none of them have really been doing much with the update updates due to MOSAIC.
I feel like there’s a real market to compete with Cessna, Piper, and Cirrus that don’t involve putting the plane together yourself. There should be plenty of planes now that are 200K, that performs similarly to certified aircraft
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