Symmetric spinnaker worth learning?
Posted by klerksdorp_sphere@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 54 comments
I sail a 23 ft keel boat on a lake, and the boat came with both a gennaker and a symmetric spinnaker. I've been learning to use the gennaker last season and while it can still be a bit daunting in gusty conditions, I mostly feel pretty confident with it even single-handed.
The symmetric and its pole currently are just taking up space inside the cabin and I've been debating whether I should learn to use it or sell it. I've been binging some tutorial videos and my head is spinning. 7 lines, the pole, some setups with a second smaller pole for whatever reason, tweaker lines... It just seems like someone tried to come up with the most roundabout and convoluted way of hoisting and controlling a sail!
So, given that I usually sail short-handed, am comfortable with the gennaker, the lake is longer than its wide, and the prevailing wind is such that I could usually do only short downwind runs anyway, would you say it's worthwhile spending time and effort to learn to use the symmetric? I don't shy away from trying out new things in general, I live to learn, and I must admit I'm sort of curious about it, but would I be setting myself up for more trouble than it's worth?
(By the way, please don't take any of that as criticism of the symmetric kite setup itself, or of people who use it. I'm sure there are valid reasons for the complex way it's done, otherwise the system wouldn't have survived this long. I come here to get educated, not to point fingers, and my comments above are of course tongue-in-cheek. Everyone dealing with this kind of setup on the regular has my respect.)
hobbycollector@reddit
I ran a symmetric spinnaker solo exactly once, just to do it. It usually requires a 3-person crew. They all have to know what they're doing.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Yeah, I'm almost never in this position. Usually single-handed or with 1 inexperienced crew. Thanks for your input, I tend to think I'll just continue with the gennaker for now.
Sweaty-Seat-8878@reddit
run it without the pole. Light-ish air. Windward guy/tweaker down fairly hard. If its a tiller boat tiller between your legs hand on the sheets. Ease it out till the edge just starts to curl, thats your perfect trim.
Great way to practice sail trim and fun. Much easier to collapse and drop in a hurry.
You can do it with the pole, even jibe if you are dead downwind and the boat is balanced/tracks well. But plenty can go wrong there
crsf29@reddit
Running a symmetric spinnaker is a crew activity. It takes timing, technique, and good communication.
Hoist is pretty simple...pole goes up...brace side sheet is already through the beak. The brace side needs to be pulled all the way through to the pole before the ready to hoist is called. Once hoist is called, you send it...haul like crazy, and then wait for a fill. Helm will be working to dip or raise the bow to the breeze to fill it. Once filled, the pole needs to come back to its set position.
Once it's up and full, it gets trimmed.
The kite sheet that runs through the pole beak is the brace. The brace sheets the pole forward or back. The clew is then trimmed by the sheet
Both kite sheets are run through the tweakers.
The tweakers have friction rings at their ends, the sheets go through the rings, allowing the cockpit to set the clew height by pulling down on the clew and brace. The tweakers can be off...they apply no downward force on the kite...or they can be on...pulling the brace and clew down.
Cockpit trim the whole time. If clew goes forward, pole comes back by trimming the brace. If the breeze shifts forward, pole goes forward, and clew trims on. Cockpit is checking clew heights, and ensuring both the pole and clew are square height.
Gybing is fun. Pin off the brace end, and the whole kite floats inflated at the front of the boat. Shift the pole to the opposite side, don't forget the put the lazy jib sheet over the pole, and then snap the other sheet into the beak. Push push push until the previous beak is now at the mast, and pin onto the ring. The helm must keep the kite floating and execute the gybe at the same time, without a major slam across. Recall there's one, or maybe two, crew standing up at the mast with hands working pins and such.
The drop, even better...you get the jib up then run back and grab the tweaker on the sheet side. Hopefully it's not "on", and can be carried forward. Fish the tweaker through and under the jib, and jump inside the hatch. When the drop comes, retrieve the tweaker until you have the sheet and or clew, then haul the clew across the foot and then haul the entire spinnaker into the hatch from under the jib. The cockpit should clutch off the kite to drop it slowly, and not dump the head of it in the water. There's a lot of nuance here, and it's somewhat chaos.
At some point during the drop, the cockpit will also clutch off the pole topper, and the forward beak will clang down to the deck. The person on mast will unpin and stow the pole while the Bowman is still hauling it all in from the hatch.
Two choices to make next...bowman can duck into the hatch with the kite, pulling it over his head...then ready to tack. Or they hop out, shut the hatch, and then call clear tack.
Running a symmetric kite is a team sport.
T1D1964@reddit
Phew!! Great description. You must be a coach or something.
I race about 25 times per year and it is easy to forget how many details there really are.
But that is exactly what makes this sport so damn fun!!!
I often laugh at acquaintances that say "oh I don't want to sail it is so boring"
Which makes me think about my cruising sailboat, with only Main and jib. Ouch. it is so boring sometimes
crsf29@reddit
Not a coach, just crew on a racing team that run this setup.
The amount of forward/backward communication is high. Because there's all sorts of variation. You can drop the whole thing to windward of the jib...where the kite comes down in the gap between the pole and the forestay on the "wrong" side, the windward side of the jib. The helm can harden up to the pole side, trimming pole back as they do, and basically back the kite into the breeze, dumping it onto your head to deal with.
In which case, to raise it again you need a windward raise...where someone has to get the pole up then bundle the whole kite in their arms and get it to the pulpit, stand up and toss the kite out behind the jib while it's hoisting. Definitely not for the faint of heart in 15-20kts.
And that's all when the plan comes together...there's times when it doesn't, confusion sets in and all hell breaks loose at the ripping hot speed of 6kts...lol.
People don't get how it can be hectic, but it sure as hell is.
Here's a link for an assymetrical drop gone windward with a pole drop adjacent to them.
Even the best crews have a hell of a time if the plan changes too late or isn't communicated. Or can't be communicated over the sounds of flapping sails or breeze.
True South, the boat shown here, is a hell fast crew taking 1st in a high percentage of the races they enter. Ragnar is good also.
https://youtu.be/o0DHvDikDis?si=0TmXUjZgyiIhON1m
swampopawaho@reddit
This is a fantastic blow by blow guide. Single-handed seems almost impossible
n0exit@reddit
The most fun I ever had flying asymmetric Spinnaker was a single-handed race.
CharterJet50@reddit
I raced dinghies with sym’s for fifteen years. I’m switching to a 23 ft keel boat now and even though I have the option of using either type of chute, I’m not even getting the rigging for a sym. I will race occasionally still, and I’m fully confident with a sym, but I never ran it solo, nor would I ever try. I’ve had enough with poles and jibes with sym’s for a lifetime now and am looking forward to a pole free future. Unless you’re racing in one design where it’s required, I wouldn’t bother. It’s certainly not something I’d bother trying to solo.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Makes a lot of sense, thanks for your input!
johnbro27@reddit
My 45' came with a couple of chutes. I kept on on board and used a spinnaker sock, flew it once poled out and after that rigged it as a drifter and flew it frequently. BTW I was almost always singlehanding or sailing with non-sailing passengers.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Could you elaborate on "rigging it as a drifter"? That's flying it without a pole? How exactly do you rig that and why?
johnbro27@reddit
Pretty simple, tack one corner down to the bow; tie sheets to the other corner which is now the clew. I already had 90' long spinnaker sheets, so a couple of bowlines and I had drifter sheets. Raise and bob's your uncle.
The only tricky part is tacking; the sail will want to get wrapped around the forestay. So the answer to that is to pull the sock down a ways without tension on the sheets. If you get caught in a situation where the wind picks up on a broad reach and you want to de-power, again, ease the active sheet and pull down the sock. Easy peasy.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
So basically like an asym, right? Are you using a tack line at the bow?
johnbro27@reddit
Yes and yes.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Right on, I think that could be an easy way for me to try it. Thanks!
ohthetrees@reddit
The entire pursuit of sailing is a hobby. So does the extra skill element of running a symmetric appeal to you? Would it enhance your hobby?
For me, the asymmetric has enough overlap functionally, and is simpler to use, so I wouldn’t bother. Others will feel oppositely. What about you?
Raneynickelfire@reddit
Idk it's a business and sport for me.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
It does appeal to me, just for the sake of learning something new. But in the sense of being able to put it into practice often, no. I guess even if I could perfectly handle it on my own, I'd probably use it on less than 5% of my sailing days, whereas I'm running the asym at least half the time now.
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
If it’s rigged for it run it and the make your decision. I will say as a single handed sailor it’s not an easy feat. I would run it without the main to keep things simpler. Most single handers use a whisker pole and a a-sail with a runner / reacher. Perhaps you could sell your setup and use the money to upgrade from the spin pole to a whisker pole.
I would go carbon with a mast track to adjust the height and set it up to store the whisker pole on the mast. Keep the running rigging for the setup on the mast so you can do all the work on deck.
indigoinblue@reddit
Great answer.
dickwae@reddit
You can rig single sheets and guys, and the tweakers aren't necessary, just helpful for trim.
n0exit@reddit
Adding separate guys just weighs the sail down on a small boat.
NotASexJoke@reddit
On a boat so small that’s a concern you can manhandle the pole onto the single guy/sheet in the tack. We do it on 40+ footers in light airs when using light lines with 15kg poles.
youngrichyoung@reddit
Im an aspiring cruiser who recently moved up to a bigger boat with some racing history. It's missing a lot of sails. I was thinking along the same lines as you, that running a symmetrical spinnaker short-handed isn't worth it; figured I'll just get an asym and call that good.
Then I found a spot crewing on a boat for the local Wednesday night races. Skipper flies a spinnaker, and he has taken me under his wing to show me how it's done. It's actually not that bad to set up, and the speed we get from it is... seductive. I've been shopping used spinnakers for my boat since the second time we launched it in a race.
Control lines aren't that complicated - a halyard and two sheets on the sail, and then the pole gets a topping lift and a downhaul.
What I like about the idea is that it makes light-air motoring conditions into sailing conditions again. As a cruiser, that means less wear & tear on the diesel (and saves $ on fuel). And it's hella fun, which is the whole point.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
That makes a lot of sense, and for cruising, I'd use one too eventually. Most of my sailing is in more confined spaces though, so I'll probably stick with the gennaker after reading through all the feedback here.
Correct-Brother1776@reddit
I flew mine singlehanded a few times. Unless you have crew worth it. Also a lot can go wrong and you will have no one to come back and pick you up if you go in the water. An asymmetric spinnaker in a sock is the way to go.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Why do you recommend one with a sock though? I have a furling one, and from what I gather, they're even easier to handle. No need to go to the foredeck to hoist or douse.
Correct-Brother1776@reddit
My genoa was roller furling, Sailing single handed I could hoist the asym in the sock and leave it there if i knew I would be off the wind. Furl the genoa, pull the sock up and trim the sail. When I would gybe I would douse the sail with the sock get on thee other tack, walk the sheet around the mast and pull the sock up. Just one sheet, less chance of fouling and me having to go forward. If the main isn't pulling I would sometime just go with the asym. it all depends on how your boat is rigged. I had everything led aft. I could hoist the main and put in the first deep reef from the cockpit. When I had a new main made I only had 2 reef points in it. the first reef was between where the first and second would usually be. I could but the first reef in from the cockpit. The second I had to put it on the hook and tie the reef in. My boat was only 30ft so singlehanding wasn't too hard. I had a tiller pilot and a Monitor windvane so if I was at the helm something was wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRGL5ZXGyt4
Stormin_333@reddit
Put me in the yes chute category. It isnt necessary unless you are a racer but it is a fun skill to learn.
It's tough single handed but can be done on smaller boats and feels like an a accompliment!
If the pole can be used as a whisker pole, def dont sell it. It is useful. You aren't going to get a lot of money for it, and it may add a little value if you ever sell boat. I'd say keep it around as a future skill to work on. I rarely fly mine but always glad when I do.
Several goods tips posted here. Id suggest you give it a try 3 or 4 times and if you decide it's not for you, then you can sell.
carnalasadasalad@reddit
The thing about a symmetrical kite is that it is fun and it is beautiful. It’s also really easy once you figure it out. Just practice on light wind days and your boat will go fast downwind!
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
The problem is there's usually a lee shore not even 500 m away! ;)
mk3waterboy@reddit
As others have said, it need not be overly complicated. But is more complex and requires a bit more choreography than the assym. At 23’ the loads are small and easily handled. I single hand my 25’ boat masthead both racing and daysailing with the spinnaker and find it immensely satisfying to be able to set, jibe, and drop on my own.
At a minimum you will need two sheets, one halyard, a topping lift to control to set and maintain pole height, and a foreguy to restrict the pole from going higher than optimal. You can add twings/tweakers later if you like. They add a better level of control, but are not required.
Some tips that can make things easier: - rig your foreguy to a block at the base of the mast, not a block midway between the mast and headstay. This allows you to set it and then be able to move the pole without have to adjust the foreguy. Very helpful when single handing
-if possible , consider launching and dropping the spinnaker from a bag in the companionway. This keeps everything close and easy for you to manage. Do some searches to see examples, they are common on boats like J-24s.
Read up on trim. Once you have the basics, its is straightforward. General guidelines - pole height so the tack (corner of sail at pole) is equal in height to the clew (free flying corner). - pole angle can be set 90 degrees to the apparent wind. This is a good starting point.
- ease the sheet until the luff curls slightly, then trim slightly. Know that every change in apparent wind angle has an optimal trim. You can choose to overtrim a little giving up some speed and make life easier.
Practice in light air, learn, enjoy and build your skill!
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
You do all of that with the autopilot active, I assume?
mk3waterboy@reddit
Jibing, yes. Otherwise i usually straddle the tiller, steering with my legs, leaving both hands free to trim/adjust sails.
My typical jibe sequence: - autopilot engaged - bear off to a deep run, 170-185 degree apparent wind angle. Less deep the windier it is. - cleat off spinnaker guy and sheet. - ease foreguy about 6-10” ( makes it easier to get pole on mast after jibing -jibe the main first - go forward, jibe the pole. Release Off the mast first, then quickly release off the sail - get new guy in pole first, then attached to mast. - return to cockpit, snug foreguy - adjust heading to optimal course, trim as required.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Got it, thanks!
e-wrx-ion@reddit
A well executed jibe with the symmetrical spinnaker brings me joy, so I would encourage you to learn to use that sail in the hope it brings you the same joy. Given the limitations of the lake, are there any opportunities for you to sail on someone else’s boat and learn on a larger body of water?
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Probably I'll have the chance one day. My boat and my local lake may just not be the perfect setting for it. Thanks for your input!
saywherefore@reddit
On a small keelboat the setup is likely to be a bit simpler than some of the training content makes out.
At a minimum you will have 3 bits of string: halyard, 2x sheets which also act as guys. Next to add would be pole uphaul and downhaul. The main reason to have these is to save you hefting the weight of the pole around.
You can absolutely fly a symmetric single handed, but it is only fun if you have (a) an autopilot so you can go up to the foredeck and (b) lots of space so you aren’t trying to do everything under pressure.
I wouldn’t try to fly a symmetric when racing single handed, so the time it is most useful is for long downwind passages. It sounds like this doesn’t apply to you, so I’d be tempted to sell the kit or put it somewhere out of the way in case you get into crewed sailing down the line.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Good point, obviously I don't have to keep storing it in the boat at all.
New_Day_Co-op2@reddit
Don’t sell it - you may change your mind one day or sell the boat, and they are expensive to replace.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Good point, thanks!
gsasquatch@reddit
In my snobby gatekeeping, you're not a "real" sailor until you are comfortable with the chute. e.g HS level 420's, no chute. Collegiate level, chute. Take it to the next level, and take some risk. Get tangled and broach. What are you out there for anyway? Otherwise you might as well be motoring.
Tweakers aren't necessary, more of a trim thing or on my boat, I use in lieu of pole down in <20kts. Pole down tends to get tangled, or maybe I'm just a newb. <10kts I don't need either, so start in <10kts, and keep it simple, add to it from there.
Strictly speaking, you don't need the pole either, at least not pretty close to dead down. If you have someone that can drive that, run the sheet and guy, "outside of everything" and hoist it free flying. Useful to have that skill for gybes and some take downs anyway. Danger of that, the wind angle a kite will fly without a pole, is accidental gybe land, so watch that boom, or try it without the main.
Particulars of rigging it is somewhat particular to the boat. If you can find not just the generic, but see how someone with your boat rigs it, that's better.
Like anything else, build to it, and start in light winds when it is easy.
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Might be a good idea to just try it without a pole when the wind direction is right and I have a long stretch of lake downwind from me.
PaulHol11@reddit
Personally, I like to learn all the different ways to sail a boat. A symmetrical spinnaker can’t be beat dead down wind. Yes, it’s daunting at first. I have a 33 foot boat and it took time to sort it all out. But after a few times, flying it, it really becomes much easier and more fun. Just fly in 10 kn of wind or less to begin with. It’s really pretty fun. But if the asymmetrical works for you great. Fun to learn new things and another excuse to sail more lol.
PaulHol11@reddit
Also, guess I should mention I do this solo all the time. An autopilot is my 2nd crew member
klerksdorp_sphere@reddit (OP)
All I can offer is a tiller jam cleat. ;)
AeroRep@reddit
Is it worth it depends on your sailing conditions. A symetrical is made for near dead down wind. If you dont need that for where you are its not worth it. It takes a while to set up. If you will only get a short run, that made it too much effort IMO.
dignz@reddit
Not worth it solo. Yes worth it with a crew.
n0exit@reddit
It's fun solo. But you have to know what you're doing.
mathworksmostly@reddit
I think it’s worth learning for some people that want to maximize their sailing abilities and confidence. I personally use a furling gennaker on both my fast trimaran and big boat. It’s easy and fun and well that’s good enough for me.
Fred_Derf_Jnr@reddit
A symmetrical spinnaker is well worth learning, as it will add another string to your sailing bow. Whether you persevere with it longer term is up to you, I’m a fan of them in preference to an Asymmetrical spinnaker, as it gives me more options on courses.
Even if you don’t decide to keep with the spinnaker the pole can also be used to “pole out” the jib on the windward side when running deep, depending on the size of pole and jib.
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
Most boats have been moving to asym for a reason. Its fun when you get it right though. I used to set my sym single handed on my old Pearson 23. You need a reliable auto helm. Granted I would do dip pole gybing when solo which requires it to be fully rigged (two lines each clew)
Emergency_Dish_1213@reddit
I wouldn't bother with a traditional spin single handed sailing. You probably won't enjoy it. It already can be enough with a full crew.