Is this a risky zebra crossing?
Posted by Extension_Bit4323@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 92 comments
[removed]
Posted by Extension_Bit4323@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 92 comments
[removed]
ScottOld@reddit
We have one at our morrisons, with zero visibility due to the layout of the car park, the path is next to a building, then you have to cross no matter what, so essentially blind to drivers in one part
bluejackmovedagain@reddit
I drive down this road fairly frequently. The crossing is almost invisible from one entry to the roundabout, and I've seen a lot of near misses. Drivers should, of course, be aware that they can't see that part of the road and therefore be going slowly enough to stop safely, but relying on that is an awful idea for pedestrian safety.
Chemical-Lettuce2497@reddit
It has the poles, surely not that hard to see?
bluejackmovedagain@reddit
The pole on one side has a tree that overhangs it, and the one on the other side is too far back from the road so from some angles it looks like the crossing is on the exit before this one.
WorhummerWoy@reddit
Relying on people being alert to the fact that they might kill someone is indeed a bad idea, but it really shouldn't be!
Jeggasyn@reddit
This one is worse
Extension_Bit4323@reddit (OP)
Wtf?
Sir_Madfly@reddit
It looks incredibly unsafe, whatever it is. It needs a centre island to reduce the distance pedestrians need to cross and a speed bump to slow cars down. Plus the roundabout needs to be made bigger to force cars to actually steer around it at a gentle speed and not just zoom through.
La-Gaoaza-Cu-Jeleu@reddit
the issue with these crossings in the uk is that they don have a warning sign 50 m before, like in Europe. They only have a sign next to them. or none
WitShortage@reddit
No, because the rules were changed in January 2022.
ConstantineGSB@reddit
Rule changes don't mean that the cars on the opposite junction can see through the vegetation on the roundabout to see any pedestrians crossing (its on a slight hill, you cant really tell from the picture).
I drive in this area often and its a fucking nightmare for all involved.
Pedantichrist@reddit
It is hard to tell from the image, but I cannot see any Belisha beacons, which would mean that this is not a zebra crossing, but rather just a ‘courtesy’ crossing.
ratscabs@reddit
A what??
YetAnotherInterneter@reddit
For a zebra crossing to be legally enforceable it must have Belisha beacons (the flashing lights on poles) you can see some on the other crossing in the background to the left
If it doesn’t then it’s not an official zebra crossing.
Of course if someone is crossing the road common sense should tell you not to run them over.
Pedantichrist@reddit
The law says that they still have to stop, but only once you are on the road, not just because you want to cross.
Willeth@reddit
It's interesting, I think the law as written in the highway code is ambiguous here. I've had a long argument with someone about this because we had different interpretations of "on the crossing" - I was interpreting it the way you did, but the other person considered waiting with clear intent to be on the crossing, as the kerb cut and the accessible tiling constituted part of the structure.
Pedantichrist@reddit
In a zebra crossing, I interpret 'on the crossing', as including the kerb cut and the accessible tiling constituting part of the structure.
JeffSergeant@reddit
Which is exactly the same as a zebra crossing.
Pedantichrist@reddit
A zebra crossing extends beyond the street, and into the area of the pavement which serves the crossing.
A courtesy crossing has normal road rules, so a pedestrian has to be on the road, or preparing to cross at a junction, for the must ruling to apply (although in all cases you should give way.
It is frustratingly unclear where a roundabout exit creates to be a junction. I would suggest that in the example given it is a junction.
This is all moot, however, as we now have google maps imagery showing that there in fact are Belisha beacons.
JeffSergeant@reddit
Not according to the law it doesn't
Pedantichrist@reddit
Source?
missuseme@reddit
In this case as the crossing is at a junction the newer rule 170 would apply meaning drivers should stop for pedestrians waiting to cross.
YetAnotherInterneter@reddit
It’s not legally enforceable. It’s just a guideline.
blooberdoob25@reddit
But does that apply at roundabout exits? I’ve seen videos from 2 different driving instructors, one says yes one says no. And the DVSA can’t seem to give a straight answer when asked. The rules at every ambiguous
27106_4life@reddit
Yes. It does.
blooberdoob25@reddit
I always thought so. For reference this is the video where the ADI suggests it doesn’t apply https://youtu.be/gg0-FajJlZs?si=VKYUbaAlLkWIQlPM
27106_4life@reddit
And also, of course the law that pedestrians have priority at all intersections, so consequently you should be treating every single intersection (barring pedestrian prohibited areas) as zebra crossings
YetAnotherInterneter@reddit
This is not true.
The Highway Code made a change in 2022 that in summary said “vehicles at a junction should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross into a road from which the vehicle is turning into”. However there are several issues with this.
Firstly the Highway Code makes no attempt to define what a junction is. Does a roundabout count as a junction? What about a mini-roundabout? And what exactly does it mean by “turning into”? The wording is just too confusing and vague.
Secondly the Highway Code is not the law. This change to the Highway Code did not change the legislation. There is nothing in law that requires vehicles to give way to pedestrians in this scenario. The Highway Code is merely a suggestion on how road users can act safety.
In the words of Captain Barbossa: The code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules.
The change was heavily criticised when it was announced and there has been little to no change of behaviour or enforcement since then.
The idea behind it isn’t bad. If they want vehicles to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross they could have. But it should have been written into law with specific and clear definitions on how the law works. The way the did it has just been a confusing mess.
27106_4life@reddit
Junctions are junctions. I assume you don't have a good grasp of the English language
YetAnotherInterneter@reddit
When it comes to legislation, the terminology needs to be specific and precise. You can’t just say word like “junctions”, you have to specify exactly what kind of junctions you are referring to.
But this is all irrelevant because the Highway Code isn’t legislation. It’s just guidelines (poorly written guidelines)
Pedantichrist@reddit
Are you okay?
GLA_Postal_Services@reddit
This information is useful in general but I think the other person was confused about the name.
"Belisha Beacon" sounds weird. I didn't know they were called that until recently after someone told me and even then I went to look at one to see if the name is stamped on them (it is, near the bottom)
Objective_Mousse7216@reddit
Ha tell that to most drivers who will swerve round you six inches from your legs
Sburns85@reddit
Yeah you would think that would be common sense
Spiritual_Smell4744@reddit
Named after Leslie-Hore Belisha, who was the minister who introduced them.
pat8888@reddit
There's a brand new zebra crossing near me with a refuge in the middle of the road so it has 4 Belisha beacons. Two of them are yellow, the other two are orange. Any idea why?
KesselRunIn14@reddit
The stripey pole with the yellow light on top.
doginjoggers@reddit
Check the street view on Google maps, they're just out of shot
Oster-P@reddit
There's two on the other crossing in the back, so they're probably just out of shot for this one.
Emergency-Living6584@reddit
No, the drivers you mentioned are just morons
iamezekiel1_14@reddit
I'd be surprised if that passed a Stage 2 Road Safety Audit unless there are clearly mitigating circumstances.
No-Dinner-3715@reddit
Willows rd has just been publicly consulted on as part of a bus improvement scheme but it didn’t include this bit.
the_Athereon@reddit
Extremely. Especially at night.
explax@reddit
There are a few crossings like this - I can think of a couple in London. In theory the changes in the rules a few years back lead all side roads to be the same as zebras.
I think there's a proposal to bring more of these sorts of crossings in to use
Odd_Bug_7029@reddit
I think so, crossings are usually set a bit further back from junctions, aren't they?
mcrboy39@reddit
Ha, go check out Bodmin, Cornwall.
3 crossings on each exit of the roundabout, literally where a car would be waiting at the 'bout.
But these aren't just any old crossings... Oh no. No black and white stripes, just a different material used. No signs. Nothing.
Then there is a crossing a metres back from the first crossings (where they should be, and only be those ones
)
Far_Kaleidoscope_102@reddit
Not always, Bedford has a zebra crossing on a junction with multiple ways of entry. (High street next to Nando’s) IYKYK
Beartato4772@reddit
Yes but not that far because if they set them back more than a tiny bit people cross at the junction anyway rather than walk an extra 50m at every junction they pass.
zephyrdragon15@reddit
To be fair, I cross on the corner as it feels far safer where I can see the cars coming round the corner and they can see me 🤷
Over-Language2599@reddit
Indeed. This doesn't look like it would meet modern safety standards.
Unlucky_Power_3508@reddit
Stupid place for a crossing. There are many like this
thecrius@reddit
Yes but after all this is the country in which we find normal to put crossings right at the entrance of roundabouts.
You know roundabouts? The one thing that should always have traffic in motion and never really stop? That one.
EtwasSonderbar@reddit
The ones that people still need to walk across?
Nickjc88@reddit
It's a courtesy crossing. Vehicles aren't legally required to stop. This is a should stop, not a must stop situation. Safer to wait until it's clear to cross.
27106_4life@reddit
No such thing. All crossings are pedestrian priority
Nickjc88@reddit
There are. Look it up.
jamesdownwell@reddit
It's a crossing with Belisha beacons so it's a zebra crossing and very much a MUST stop. You can see them in the street view link in OP.
Nickjc88@reddit
I didn't click the link, I just went by what I could see.
jamesdownwell@reddit
You can see the Belisha beacons on the other crossings in the photo mind you, makes sense that this one would also have them.
McLeod3577@reddit
The stripes would suggest it's not a courtesy crossing. Even if it is, the road hierarchy rules mean the driver must give way.
PrincessPK475@reddit
Cardiff is riddled with zebra crossings right on junctions off roundabouts.
An accident waiting to happen and bloody stupid idea.
I get the point of giving pedestrians right of way but as you're coming off the roundabout your eyes often still need to be checking to the right, especially little ones like this that move quick.... also if you have to break harshly and someone's up your arse they're going to slam into you and bump you forward into a pedestrian.
Hate it makes it more dangerous all round not less.
27106_4life@reddit
The person behind you shouldn't be so close. Drive slower
PrincessPK475@reddit
Tell that to the people behind me. I can't go slower than a complete stop? ... Also... congestion in inner city traffic? People drive close to grab the gaps otherwise you get stuck trying to get onto the roundabout.
Doesn't matter if they're creeping either, if their eyes are to the right .... Where they should be to check your right of way.... Then they can't be simultaneously be on the zebra crossing... Where pedestrians are far less predictable and often, less visible.
Zebra crossings right on top of roundabout junctions like this need you to have eyes in the back of your head to be truly safe because your eyes need to be polar opposite directions simultaneously to navigate it as safely as you're being expected to.
Krags@reddit
Yeah, are crossings on roundabout exits actually something that road designers aim to produce? I hate them, much happier having the crossing a couple of car lengths further out.
Pocket_Aces1@reddit
It's risky because: * It's at the widest part of the road * No central refuge area * Some drivers won't see another car stopping for it/won't stop
I hate the "new" highway code update on vehicles on the road having to give way to pedestrians waiting to cross at side junctions, or dropped crossings (ignoring zebra crossings) because it defeats a lot of how traffic is meant to flow, especially on roundabouts. It's then also more risky and introduces more hesitation for both the pedestrian, and drivers because some may know they should, but others don't, and even then, you risk inattentive drivers either hitting you, or up your rear.
27106_4life@reddit
Traffic doesn't need to flow. That's the point. Your inconveniencing pedestrians for the convenience of cars. That should change
Sensitive-Youth-9803@reddit
They’re all risky today with drivers not stopping.
V8boyo@reddit
Looks like the.give way markings are well behind the crossing. That's where people should be waiting so I guess there's plenty of vision to the right.
deltree000@reddit
What if I'm driving from the left side of this image and want the third exit (closest to the camera)? My view of this crossing is nicely obscured with the shrubs on the roundabout. It's a terrible design.
V8boyo@reddit
I concur.
enygma999@reddit
A crossing that close to a roundabout (even a small one) is stupid, it should be a car length or more down the road. This might help mitigate drivers having too much to pay attention to on approach/departure.
RiskReward92@reddit
Looks to me that the crossing is older than the roundabout - on a normal road junction it would have been safer (one way priority, drivers more likely to be slowing to turn, better visibility without the roundabout).
The roundabout being put in has made it less safe.
All that being said, it's drivers who are the issue, not just the crossing placement.
Rude-Possibility4682@reddit
There is one near me that is about 10 meters down from the mini roundabout. Every time I cross it, I feel like I'm risking my life, as every driver zooms over the roundabout, and ignore the crossing. I've been halfway across on a number off occasions, and had to leap back, from being nearly run over.
-Rhymenocerous-@reddit
Depends on the area.
Looks like a quiet residential road to me. Although signage would def help with people making a fatal mistake
CountvanSplendid@reddit
Don’t think I’ve seen one quite that close, but not much further away from the roundabout. My driving instructor (decades ago) told me they were there because, in theory, traffic was moving at its slowest approaching and exiting the roundabout. In theory..
Still_Pass_5110@reddit
This one in Crewe town centre... almost been flatterned by impatient drivers exiting or entering the roundabout. I think the crossing has since been moved back with fresh madkings but still dodgy to cross.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/EcJNZxi3WWNiTGnd7?g_st=ac
huskydaisy@reddit
Yeah crossings next to roundabouts always feel very dicey as a pedestrian.
There's a toucan crossing off a roundabout just up the road from me that I use nearly every day, I'd say it's about once a week someone either slams on at the last second or just plain old runs the red light.
Iti-Ngu-Ga@reddit
Yes because of its location. Too close tot he exit. Needs to be moved back maybe 5 metres.
Distinct-Lion4658@reddit
That crossing looks like its IN the roundabout jeez
McLeod3577@reddit
If people drive properly (i.e. look where they are going!) then it's not a problem.
I have one like this on my daily drive. This is in Devon though, where the standard of driving is significantly better than in Birmingham.
pandaman901@reddit
There's a few crossings in my area like this I think they're terrifying, you can never guarantee someone exiting the roundabout will stop.
JasonStonier@reddit
We've got a zebra crossing like that near where I live. I know of 4 people that have been hit crossing it - it's at the top of a hill after a blind bend on the entrance to a roundabout, so there's a lot going on to distract you as you approach it.
I'm not a particularly bad driver, but I had a lapse of attention there and almost drove (slowly) over while someone was about to cross (a bus driver beeped me and I stopped, and gave him a cheery thank you for making me realise I was being a twat).
So, yeah - not a big fan of zebra crossings that close to roundabouts.
Comprehensive-Tank92@reddit
Paul Mcartney died there.
KiwiNo2638@reddit
It need repainting. But these are only risky if drivers aren't taking any notice of their surroundings. Or are on their phones. So it's risky if 90% of the drivers in the sub are anywhere near.
Noitche@reddit
Disagree. Crossings on roundabout exits are inherently dangerous. Even with fully attentive drivers.
That said, OP said this is Birmingham. So it's dangerous for pedestrians by definition.
Active_Doubt_2393@reddit
Looks to me like it runs adjacent to a cycle lane. Never expect car drivers to give way when they should, especially if there's a cycle lane involved.
Sburns85@reddit
More I found cyclists giving way. Have had more contacts with cyclists than drivers
Extension_Bit4323@reddit (OP)
It's in Balsall Heath BTW if that's relevant.
sufiankane@reddit
At night, I'll struggle to see that and be focussed on the roundabout instead. Hope there is food lighting around.
palpatineforever@reddit
sort of
It is the entrance to a road, therefore the pedestrian has right of way to start with even without the crossing. The zebra crossing makes this priority even more evident.
Does this crossing have belisha beacons? if not it is not technically a zerba crossing it is just markings on the road for an informal crossing. they are trying to give extra warning to drivers that peopel cross there.
Moving the crossing further up might be better but humans have a habit of taking the shortest path so many would likely still cross there if it was moved far. Presumably there is not a consistant stream of traffic or there would be traffic lights instead.
In short it shouldn't be unsafe as the drivers should be prepared to stop at the entrance to a road, the fact it is not common practice to have a crossing by a roundabout shouldn't change that.
Could the council/highways have made everyone's lives a little safer by moving it just 2 meters further down giving that little extra room to break, also yes.
jamesdownwell@reddit
Hmm, interesting one because if the vehicles that braked harshly are approaching the roundabout then it's absolutely on them - they're literally leaving a 20 MPH zone a few metres away and pedestrians have priority at all junctions now.
If it's vehicles leaving the roundabout, then yeah, I can kind of get it because there's a lot going on when you're driving a roundabout and you need to keep your wits about you but nobody should be taking a roundabout at speed anyway, especially in a 30 zone.
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