scrapping a truck with a lien
Posted by TemporaryAd3247@reddit | projectcar | View on Reddit | 121 comments
So i got myself into a pickle. Bought a '96 ram 3500 dually with a 12v cummins. Great deal, but after trying to get the damn thing transferred into my name it came up with a court lien on the title. Im in contact with the seller, he said he will figure it out with me, but ive been screwed before and am expecting to get screwed again. I have bill of sale and title in hand, and further proof of the deal. If he bails on me how do I get rid of the cab/chassis? Im gonna keep the motor and trans and throw it in my 1500. I dont want to get lawyers or the law involved as I dont have time.
Keep in mind I have a cutting torch, access to a forklift, and a metal recycler. Can I just cut the damn thing up, make sure theres no vin #s and get rid of it in pieces or is that illegal?
Thanks. Hoping I can at least get away with the drive train and make a project out of it.
TLDR- how do I legally get rid of a cab and chassis with a lien on it
ScruffyN3rfHeader@reddit
I work at a welding shop in a rural area. We have neighbors who work work on and build vehicles and inevitably end up with a frame or body they need to scrap but they don't have a title. We'll let them drop it off and then we torch it into a bunch of smaller pieces and mix it in our scrap dumpster. The scrap yard looks out for cut up vehicles but at a certain point all scrap metal starts to look the same.
Basically, if the scrap yard cannot easily tell that it was a vehicle at one point, they'll probably take it. Worst case, they see a cut up vehicle in your scrap and then just turn you away.
jkenosh@reddit
The 1500 ram doesn’t have a strong enough frame for the Cummins. Might need the whole truck with the 1500 body
corner_man@reddit
Call a local scrapper. In my state (Wisconsin), if a vehicle is over 20 years old, you don't need a title to scrap it. I imagine other states are similar.
Tastesicle@reddit
I mean, this is how chop shops get away with it, no? You basically strip everything out and swap into legitimate frames.
I had a buddy find out his Honda v-twin had a salvage title on it and his insurance company were being assholes about it even though he had mechanics say there was nothing wrong with it.
He bought a good frame with vin from someone else's project and "dropped everything good from his bike on it" and by that I mean use a letter stamp kit to make an aluminum vin plate to put over the one he filed off his bike, scrapping the purchased frame.
Imatelluonemortime@reddit
Ride that bike to bike week and let them find an altered vin and you’re going to forfeit that bike and all the custom parts on it.
Doctah_Whoopass@reddit
Thats why you dont do that
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
I did that with a yz450f but it somehow feels more sketchy will a car, im all down for misdemeanors but doing a whole truck just sounds like a risk
Tastesicle@reddit
I definitely won't deny the sketch factor, but who's chasing down engine tags, really?
Impressive-Secondold@reddit
How much is the lien for? If it's less than the time it would take to scrap the truck and install the engine and stuff into another and haul the carcass off I'd get in contact and try to pay them to release it.
Don't be afraid to negotiate on the release too, possession is 9/10 of the law. Anyone with a half a brain would know 25 percent of what your owed in cash, is better than 0 percent with no recourse after it's sent to China as a smashed brick.
If the seller sold you the truck with a bill of sale that says as is no liens and signed it, you might be able to just make him give you your money back and side step the whole boondoggle
Theguyoutthere@reddit
Strip and dump
Jondiesel78@reddit
A 96 with a lien? Sounds like maybe the lien release just wasn't turned in to the state.
Sell the good parts on Marketplace and scrap the rest.
Aggravating-Unit-516@reddit
I’m surprised the dash is still together enough to find the vin
GadreelsSword@reddit
It sounds like you just want to make it go away. Since it technically belongs to someone else, behave like it’s your neighbors car.
You could contact the lien holder and just tell them where to pick it up or drop it off at a bank branch on an agreed upon date. The DMV or court should be able to tell you who owns it. It could belong to his ex-wife or simply be a loan he defaulted on. Banks will take junk vehicles back and sell them at auction.
Cutting it up would be a lot of work and destroying someone else’s property. Which could get you into hot water.
thedarkonekc@reddit
He knew what was going on
Estef74@reddit
Depending how the condition is on the body, you could sell the cab etc and just cut up the frame when your done. Remove any and all serial numbers before selling. If it's a rusty mess like most in my area, just cut it up. Piles of steel don't last long in my area if left in the alley
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
No it's actually in mint condition which is why im hoping he figures out the issue. Its an Arizona truck. But at worst I end up with a drop in 12 valve cummins and trans and Dana 60 rear. You think i could sell the cab without a title ?
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
Another option if it’s in good shape is buy another that’s extremely cheap and swap the vin and scrap that one.
Not saying it’s legal but it’s not uncommon for people to buy semi trucks at auction just for the papers and never pickup the actual truck. All they wanted was a clean title.
TP_Crisis_2020@reddit
Just buy some junker parts truck with a clean title for a couple hundred bucks and vin swap it. All the goody two shoes will frown on doing that, but lots of people do this especially with old 90's vehicles.
Advanced_Nature9345@reddit
Buy a similar truck and swap the good parts... like the vin
Heavy_Law9880@reddit
The guy you bought it from sold it without a title, you can too.
OlYeller01@reddit
I see no reason why you couldn’t sell the cab by itself without the title. People swap cabs all the time. AFAIK the cab alone does not make a vehicle VIN xxxxxxxx. I’m sure there’s a legal determination on how many pieces constitute a full VIN, but there’s no way just the cab would.
CrazyTechWizard96@reddit
I'd almost say, OP should get a chassie with the aperpers and swap it all over, everything He can, then scrap or aboanden the rest somewhere.
This hurts saying, I love 2. gen Dodge rams, and seeing some fuckery like that makes Me mad.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Thats the plan or do some crazy shit and throw it in a prius
Boxofbikeparts@reddit
I was gonna suggest a Miata, lol
OlYeller01@reddit
Props on the use of one of my favorites, “fuckery.”
LethalRex75@reddit
Chassis
zack4200@reddit
The cab (or, more specifically the dash/firewall) is what gets used for the VIN probably 90% of the time. It's the easiest to locate and what most people are familiar with. Every single vehicle I've needed to have a VIN verified on, the police officer checking it used the VIN plate on the dash/firewall and nothing else.
People doing cab swaps are almost always registering the vehicle using the VIN on the cab they're keeping. I'm pretty sure OP's situation is why most people do cab swaps in the first place, maybe second most after rust - they've got a truck with title/VIN issues and bought a cheap cab with a clean title/VIN
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Good to know
everyoneisatitman@reddit
If it were mine I would look for a rusted piece of crap from the northeast that has a title and cannot be inspected. Then I would transfer over the door tag and the vin plate. The rusty drivetrain could be parted out to recover cost and the interior parts will probably be in better shape than one from the desert (dash/door panels/seals). The downside is that every bolt you take off the rusty vehicle will require a tetanus shot.
CrazyTechWizard96@reddit
Man, fucking shame.
I'd say, strip it, sell all parts, no vin and yea.
If it was a shitbox, I'd make it a somewhat roller and park it close to the border, should be gone in 48 hours.
Tho, still would try to get a title, fuck, I'd love and am looking for a 3500 but yea.
...
Unless...
You could get yourself, technically, a stripped chassies with a vin, then transfer all of the vin'less truck onto the stripped one, and then scrap the rest.
I know plenty of ways, just don't get cought is what Gramps always said.
Shame that seller was a dipshit tbh.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Yeah man sucks ive wanted this exact truck since high school. Finally found one after months of looking and getting a bunch of overtime pay so I thought id treat myself. In typical fashion thats not how it went at all. Im definitely gonna try everything I can before swapping out the sawzall. Either say i lost the title and try to get a bonded one or theres apparently services that help get rid of liens. Im heartbroken but at the same time I got a complete 12v with minimal blowby, a good 47re and a solid Dana dually rear end for $2,000 so i can't bitch too much. There's other rollers out there. Not gonna let myself get too down about this when it wasn't really my fault. Good luck on ur search
Comfortable-Local-84@reddit
Just pull the dash and swap the dash out of another dodge with a title. And weld a bracket plate over the frame numbers and start driving it. Otherwise get on Amazon and buy 2 vehicle specific rivets and swap the vin over. And problem solved.
Calm_during_Chaos@reddit
OP, A court lien means the seller has a judgment against him(her) issued by a judge. Could be the court officer could not find it to seize it. If you can find out which court it is you could contact them by phone (not identifying yourself by name) and ask the clerk if they are still looking for it.
People call court clerks all the time to ask specifics about individual cases. Listen to what they say and make your decisions from there.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
I've decided im going to do everything in my power to do this legally. Im contacted the MVD with more specifics. If its a court lien more than a few hundred bucks im gonna ruin this guy's life until he A. Pays the lien or B. Ends up with the truck upside down in his front yard. I dont really want to mess around with a felony or have to lie to the cops if they come looking. Ill figure something out. I found another service that will track it down for me and file the correct paperwork.
Hungry-Job-3198@reddit
If you have the title on hand you can just have it scrapped. They don’t care about liens
Greedy-Being6456@reddit
People abandon vehicles all the time on the interstate.
m00ph@reddit
What about just paying off the lien? They might release it at this point for less than the full value, as something is better than nothing.
CantPullOutRightNow@reddit
It’s a court lien and most like attached to a level of debt substantially more than the truck is worth. Like back child support or several years of unpaid taxes. It’s not a bank lien.
m00ph@reddit
Yeah, conversely, the remainder of the debt will remain, and the truck is not going to get them anything, unless they seize it and sell it, which I assume isn't practical here. Just that they want money, and something is better than nothing.
pcase@reddit
You are getting some wild inputs here but I’d have a feeling the courts would not look upon you kindly for scrapping or breaking down for parts a vehicle that has a lien against it.
I’d honestly find a free legal resource to consult before doing anything. You got screwed by the seller but it’s not against you so I’d get the OK from the courts which might just resolve your issue entirely.
CantPullOutRightNow@reddit
Yeah, I’d call the sheriffs on this one if the seller doesn’t clear it up.
deevil_knievel@reddit
What is a court lien? Is it a monetary lien to either a lender or mechanically for services rendered? Because outside of those cases I'm pretty sure you can get a bonded title in many states, and when the bonded title reaches one year of maturity they send you an official title. I know people that have done this with older vehicles and lost titles, but I do not know what a court lien is.
CantPullOutRightNow@reddit
Court lien may be tied to child support, divorce or taxes where a judgment against a debtor is owed and liens are attached to property prevent sales or transfer.
slimytoilet@reddit
So we have a real shitty yard by me, my least favor one but they never check title until after your unloaded so I usually go in there dump my shit off and just leave real quick and just tell them the titles in the mail and act dumb. Has worked 3 or 4 times lol
Cultural_Effort_4915@reddit
Where you located? I’ll crush it for you…
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Southwest US
Cultural_Effort_4915@reddit
Too far for me. Midwest US here.
TheRealRegnorts@reddit
If it's not in your name, just abandon it somewhere and make it the other guys problem, but you said legally.
As for legally I'm not sure, I know what I would do, but not sure if it's legal either
horceface@reddit
Leave it at the police station.
mikeyfireman@reddit
Totally unrelated, but if you combine break fluid and chlorine pool tablets, you get an incredible fire.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Valid. Ill strip everything and Im sure we could play bumper cars with it for a while and then dump it on the south side
Badass_1963_falcon@reddit
By stripping it the legal part already left the room so cut it up for scrap
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
in reality im gonna use it as a parts truck and when I have no use for it im gonna cut it up and recycle it. Is that technically illegal? Lol
speedyhemi@reddit
So I had a car I put in my ex's name because I couldn't have multiple(all) cars in my name with insurance if there are multiple drivers in household. So I put one of the shit boxes in my ex's name with her own insurance, but I drove it, and financially, it was mine. Fast forward, we split up. She was toxic. She refused to sign the ownership over to me without extorting me for money. The car sat for a few years, I tried again to get her to sign it so I can just scrap it and get it off my property.
I ended up putting it on my Facebook for $500 obo "No title! For parts or scrap Only!". Had zero issue selling it to a scrap guy with just a bill of sale. I was straight up about why, and it wasn't a problem and got a few hundred for it.
Badass_1963_falcon@reddit
I'm not a lawyer you have a bill of sale and title so it's not stolen there is a lien on it but the previous owner is responsible for that so in reality it's yours they can't report it stolen they can only reposses it if they find it
cryonic_chronos@reddit
Keep the chassis? make it a 1 ton 1500?
TheRealRegnorts@reddit
Man after my own heart
bszern@reddit
Presumably OP has the only documents that prove it was sold to him. It’d be a shame if they fell into a fire.
The state has to prove possession, fuck em. Cut that bastard up.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
I like the way you think
No_Click_6176@reddit
Thats pretty much how I have disposed of more than one parts car. My last was a first gen that the drive train had been removed from. I took it for the small interior/ exterior parts. It came with title but when I went to the scrapyard there was a problem with the signature. It had been titled to a corporation and the name in the signature didn’t match up with the names of officers listed in the registry. Short story is that It got cut into small pieces and eventually ended up in the recycle center at our local landfill. Rules be dammed, I got it out of the yard.
mcdc66@reddit
Make friends with a tow truck operator. Put in the yard for 30 days. Transfer title. Done.
omenoracle@reddit
There’s a vinwiki episode where he puts a mechanic’s lien on a vehicle and charges storage fees against it until the finance company gives him the truck.
CarlosMolotov@reddit
Swap the cab. It carries the vin.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Allegedly has one of frame too. Am I wrong?
Nippon-Gakki@reddit
With an old truck I doubt anyone cares enough to look hard. You could sell the cab and frame separately and they’d end up with VIN numbers from parts trucks.
Fulllyy@reddit
Your are correct.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
With my luck they will 1000% do that and itll be more headache than its worth
Fulllyy@reddit
Yeah I’m sending good vibes that it’s just something trivial and he fixes it, sometimes there’s good luck to be had too…we’ll see I guess 😂 update us! 🙂
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
I will man. He hit me back today and is going to the DMV. We shared a beer and he showed me a ton of stuff at property. In all honesty im probably fine but I want a back up plan if needed. Ive been screwed one to many times im not gonna get screwed again.
CarlosMolotov@reddit
You are correct, but honestly who looks that hard. The easy vin is the best vin. It’s thirty years old, that loan is likely long written off. What’s the date of the lien?
HotWalk152@reddit
I use to run a shredder at night and trust me when i say ive shredded my fair share of them up including one of my own....
waddlemyway@reddit
man, it would be a real shame if you found a rotted truck with a clean title and bought some vin tag rivets off ebay and accidentally mixed up which truck was which. oh well, I guess this rusty truck in a million pieces can get towed to scrap in your clean second gen.
sideswiped8@reddit
How much is the lein?
TrainerBC25@reddit
that rear axle is worth 800, front about 400 if 4x4 FYI.
But yes sell off parts and cut it up
Ayerslu@reddit
Pull all the parts you want, let the company with the lein on it pick up the rest 🤣
its_just_flesh@reddit
Take it back and tell him you didnt want to buy a car with a lien on it and get your money then look elsewhere.
Mr_Diesel13@reddit
Pull what you need. Sell what you don’t.
Cut the rest up with a sawzall and haul it off.
rawkguitar@reddit
My salvage yard doesn’t care about titles on vehicles that old.
Your mileage may vary.
81zedd@reddit
Don;t know where you are in the world as that would change the legal side. Had a friend go through something similar and it was dragged out even longer because the guy who put the lien died before signing anything. I think he had to get a lawyer and send a series of registered letters, and document them unanswered. Pain in the ass
gstorhof1@reddit
You can probably find a tittle for sale online, you know, for a 96 Dodge ram that doesn't have a lien on it.
HenriDeToulouse@reddit
With the documents you have could you sell it for export?
Fulllyy@reddit
So, “I want to screw the lien holder out if their lien property, which I took possession of through a fraudulent sale to me, is that illegal?”
Put it another way: if the lien holder is a bank, and this person owes over 2k, they’ve transferred the property to you (essentially stolen property because the seller didn’t own it) and now you’re considering disposing of that stolen property either in concert with the thief or on your own.
Tldr YES, IT’S ILLEGAL.
It’s receiving stolen property, then disposing of real property to thwart satisfaction of a lien. Depending upon how much is owed it can be “grand theft” and could be a felony.
Short answer DON’T DO IT. You’ve already memorialized your dilemma online, and if you think it’s not traceable to you, you’re likely wrong, we live in a state of pretty much perpetual documentation or our information, your Reddit account even if it’s an anonymous one…unless you’re really good it’s not as anonymous as you think.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
you're right. so do i lawyer up or what is the correct response here?
Fulllyy@reddit
You’re doing it, right now, talking to the seller, getting the tickets cleared however that needs to happen, even if you pay DMV, and then sue the seller in small claims court, your property, your schweet truck, will be securely yours.
I’ll keep my fingers crossed for you, this seems to be turning out “least bad outcome”.
Once you get a receipt from the DMV, stuff is paid, your reg’ is paid, then you won’t have a problem, they’ll send you your new title and sticker and you’ll be on the road, in your mint ‘96 badaxxed ride, 👏😆and if you have to, you can sue the seller in small claims (which you’ll win 100%, and he likely knows it) so you’re in a very strong position doing exactly what you’re doing 👍
Tell him you need it paid today, ideally from his pocket, since the tickets were on the car from before you knew anything about it. If he claims it was someone else who did the tickets, he should pay them so you two are square, then he can sue whomever ran them up and show receipts from what he pays today (tomorrow, whenever).
I hope it’s cheap and easy, good luck man 👍
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Ok thank you! I really appreciate it. As much as I am willing to (bend) the law i am happy to know there is a legit option out there if I need it. id VASTLY prefer to do things the right way if I can, so I appreciate your advice.
Fulllyy@reddit
👍 I’m glad to help 🙏 good luck 👍
laughapnea@reddit
What's the lien number? Also, since it's not in your name, if it showed back up on the guys yard that would be on him.
I know the dmv can move things around, if you ask. Or a salvage yard can salvage it out and if you "bought it," from them it may not have the lien on it anymore, but I'd check.
But have returned a roller to someone after I couldn't get it in my name
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
according to a beenverified check its a lien from 1996 (sounds unrealistic because its said the title has been transferred 4 times since then) but thats all ive got. Person i bought it from got back to me and said he called the local dmv. He said that they told him there are court liens on the vehicle. Again he has been in contact and seems willing to deal with the issue but I want to make sure I am not completely and totally screwed in this situation
oldwatchlover@reddit
LOL. A court lien and the title is in your name?
They won’t forget and this will haunt you until you pay it or die.
The_Name_Is_Betty@reddit
Title in hand, but not in their name yet hence the lien issue.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Yeah and theres no way in hell im paying off someones else's financial screw up
Fulllyy@reddit
It’s your financial screw up because you bought and took possession of it. No offense, that’s just the bottom line.
If it’s in mint condition, it could be a title loan, could be a bunch of things, could be a simple failure to register it, the DMV will trail that car to the ends of the earth over $200 bucks, it’s dumb but they will…do you have any clue as to who holds the lien? There can be clues to the amount just from the person or entity holding it. It could be a tiny amount of money. Could be a failed toll pay, could be a bunch of things.
Did it have current tags on it?
If not, it’s probably a registration fee plus a nominal penalty, you’re considering committing a felony over what could be practically no money.
Get more info…it could be practically nothing.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
That is the plan. sounds like tickets unpaid I just wanted to have a backup plan in case things went worst case.
Fulllyy@reddit
He’s already been to the DMV, or corresponded with them, about the VIN# in question, unless there’s no permanent record (depends on how he contacted them) they already know he has the property.
ze55@reddit
What state are you in?
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
AZ, and in a really bad part of AZ at that. I could probably leave it in the alley behind my house and it would be gone but im trying to not be that guy
tobashadow@reddit
If all you want is the drivetrain, pull it and any parts you want and drop off the shell at an off ramp in a rural area and the problem will fix itself.
Either someone will grab and scrap it or the state will auction it to a scraper.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
for reference I live in Tucson Arizona, my neighbor is addicted to amphetamines. Im pretty sure i could just give it to min and it would be gone
WTFpe0ple@reddit
ha, about 15 years ago I had a friend do the same thing. He had bought a Corvette with a HP V8 in it but could never get the seller to straighten out the title and paper work. He had a nice shop with a small forklift. He called me one day and said you want to see my cut up a Corvette?
I watched him turn that thing on it side and use a torch to cut all the mounts until the engine and trans fell out on the ground. He then winched in up on his flatbed and took it to the middle of BFE and dumped it.
Problem solved.
megamorganfrancis@reddit
Depending on where you are, I have cut vehicles into 4 pieces and scrapped them with no paperwork. Also, one yard takes them with no paperwork if the engine is out of it. Over ten years old, of course.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Thank you all. Sounds like I am going to try my best to get a clean title for it but if all else fails cab and chassis go to the scrap yard in peices and ill find a roller with good vin and title.
Fulllyy@reddit
Don’t “chop shop” it…depending upon who the lien holder is and how much money is on it, you’re talking about getting the feds sniffing around for a long time in your future, if you have a life and a family any business associates you drag them into all that mess over what might be a simple unpaid traffic fine or something small, that would be very unwise, you don’t sound like you need that kind of attention.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
since there is no proof of ownership and I am the only one with the bill of sale (no copies exist) and title, would i really be in trouble? Genuine question, it seems like as long as i dont scrap the whole thing for money or sell it off to some other guy ill be in the clear and I can claim i had no knowledge of the situation.
Fulllyy@reddit
It really depends on the situation…if it’s the bank that owns it, and he only half paid it off…THAT would be a big problem and you could get in trouble over it, and you have to also make sure that the seller hasn’t inadvertently fingered you (to anyone) as having bought it…but the fewer the contacts you’ve had with DMV, using the documents of the truck or the VIN#, the better. Did he give you a certificate of title at all, or just a bill of sale?
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
I did alot of stupid stuff when I was younger and I thank my lucky stars I got away with it so yes id prefer no feds snooping around. He has been in contact with me and is going to the dmv tomorrow to deal with it. Hopefully works out. If it doesnt work out I dont plan on selling any parts if that makes a difference, just need to get rid of a hunk of metal on my property.
Sudden-Pangolin6445@reddit
FWIW, it's illegal in some states to disassemble and scrap a vehicle without proper documentation, which of course includes clear title.
Not saying you didn't get screwed. Sure sounds like you did.
Zestyclose-Big-3540@reddit
if he won't release the lien, return it to him. 4am driveway dropoff.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
Just the shell, im keeping the guts lol
Zestyclose-Big-3540@reddit
the shell will fit in his driveway
Zealousideal_Sir_264@reddit
Put an 80s caddy on that frame!
Shuunanigans@reddit
Part out the chassis keep the engine and frame out your1500cab on wabam
YourWifeyBoyfriend@reddit
a court lein is nothing, you file a mechanics lein for storage on your property, then you get the car titled in your name in indiana.
pooo_pourri@reddit
Tbh this doesn’t sound like a bad situation. If all you want is the drivetrain rip that out. The lien is for the title and title is for the vin so the chassis. If they try and seize it just give them the chassis.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
It was a big win or a regular win situation. At best I got my dream truck and at worst I got 3 steps closer to my dream truck
pooo_pourri@reddit
Yeah, it might also be worth it to talk to a bankruptcy attorney. There’s a chance that because you have the title and everything whoever has the lien is SOL/the guy who sold it to you is deeper in the hole.
mr_j_12@reddit
Engine number will be tied to chassis too for reference.
TemporaryAd3247@reddit (OP)
As im they can find out the original vin from the engine number? As far as i know the 12v cummins only had a serial number
UnbelievableDingo@reddit
Yes.
Half a truck doesn't need a title to scrap.
josephfuckingsmith1@reddit
trucks_guns_n_beer@reddit
Just cut it in half. No title needed for random scrap.
Etex1984@reddit
What Ram 3500? A 96 you say? Never seen it.