James May on Twitter/X regarding cars: “The whole ‘It’s got soul’ thing is lazy.”
Posted by FlipStig1@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 213 comments
James May replied to a random Twitter/X user who made the case that cars don’t have souls. In a surprise twist, he supported that sentiment! May might be technically correct, but a part of me wonders what his former colleagues, Jeremy Clarkson and Richard Hammond, would think of him now… 😅
8N-QTTRO@reddit
I agree entirely. "It's got soul" has always just seemed like a lazy way to praise something without actually saying anything of value. The "you can tell because of the way it is" of automotive journalism.
If you explain why a car "has soul," that's entirely different. But if you simply say "it has soul" and refuse to elaborate, it tells everyone that you have put zero critical thought into it, and are operating purely based on intuition/gut feeling/biases.
Nyte_Knyght33@reddit
I agree with you but, I feel like this should extend to other subjective car points like engine sounding better or other non-quantifiable statements on cars.
audi27tt@reddit
Semantics. If you’d prefer to say EVs have little to no mechanical character, we’re saying the same thing
Percolator2020@reddit
Doesn’t quite get the fizzle gland juicing.
gornzilla@reddit
They do once you've driven one! All the instant torque!
DiddyEpsteinSixSeven@reddit
Not really. Other than instant torque the experiences weren't all that exciting
xlb250@reddit
I don’t feel excitement from electric propulsion
hamatehllama@reddit
Up front cost is not the whole story. If you charge at home every night you basically drive for free with an BEV compared to an ICE.
420bIaze@reddit
There are sporty EV city cars under 2400lbs and under $20k USD equivalent.
The only thing missing is 300+ miles range, but if you're designing a lightweight sporty car, it might be better to compromise on range.
xlb250@reddit
Which models are you referring to?
420bIaze@reddit
There's this Honda hot hatch:
https://global.honda/en/newsroom/news/2026/4260410eng.html
It's 1090kg, which equates to 2403 lbs, the price hasn't been officially announced by Honda, but a Japanese YouTuber posted a purchase order for ¥3,494,700 ($22k USD equivalent). Sorry I was a little off with the price, but still well under $30k USD.
gaius49@reddit
That's got 47kw, or about 64hp...
420bIaze@reddit
It's actually 70kw, or about 93hp
xlb250@reddit
Seems more like a Honda Fit EV. You wouldn’t call the Fit a Miata equivalent, would you?
The range is 170 miles WLTC which is more like 120 miles highway range.
It is FWD instead of RWD.
420bIaze@reddit
Yeah it's not intended to be the same car, but it's just an example of the technical feasibility of building a lightweight sporty EV
xlb250@reddit
I get it, but a Miata isn’t just “sporty”.
In autocross, they run in CS class which is on the faster side. After tires and suspension mod, they get very close Porsche GT cars.
That is not to say that it is a performance car. But it is a testament to how agile the car is, which is desirable in a sports car.
You put a car like the Honda Super One into autocross, and it’s probably going to end up in HS which is the slowest class.
420bIaze@reddit
Everything you're saying is a feature of design, not technical limitations.
You said X "is not possible with EV currently"
Again I'm not saying the Super-One is the same as a miata - but it is as light as one. Making it tall and four doors, is a design choice, not a technical limitation, it has nothing to do with EV possibilities.
If Honda put their EV powertrain in an s660, it would weigh 2200 lbs, and quite possibly match or exceed an Mx5 in competition (depending on how much power they gave it.
xlb250@reddit
I recall “300+ miles highway range” in my original comment which the Honda does not achieve.
420bIaze@reddit
I already directly responded to that in preceding comments
xlb250@reddit
OK, so we both agree that an EV Miata isn’t possible currently
420bIaze@reddit
Anl small electric roadster designed like the Miata would have some benefits and some drawbacks, relative to the ICE Miata.
On your specific contentions that a small electric roadster couldn't possibly be below 2400lbs or $30k USD equivalent, I think there's good evidence it would be technically achievable.
cabs84@reddit
uhhh, come again? (no pun intended)
4Rascal@reddit
Also interested if we are talking about American market
Nintenderloin64@reddit
This is literally the SC01.
It misses your weight mark by a few hundred lbs but not by a huge margin. It has that kind of range and is sold for around 32k USD.
If only we could get Chinese cars in the States!
MLPorsche@reddit
i mean if you want to compare lightweights to lightweights then we have Lotus Exige which is 914kg and it's heavier than the Elise
once you get into superlights then ICE engines are all the way down at 500-600kg area
xlb250@reddit
Some key differences:
Wouldn’t be road legal like a Miata would (tube frame chassis)
600 pounds heavier
200~ miles highway range (320 is CLTC)
US price would be $50+k (see China vs. Australia car price)
NetworkStatic@reddit
Dang 600 pounds difference means not like a Miata at all.
Camburglar13@reddit
Yeah that’s a 25% increase
cabs84@reddit
https://www.captainelectro.com/cars/chinas-sc01-is-the-anti-tesla-ev-we-actually-want
Wow. That’s fucking amazing. That’s exactly what I would want.
Maysock@reddit
Even the regular Miata is $30.5k+$1200~ destination for a base, and almost no one buys that one.
I wish we paid 2015 prices for cars too, but inflation has occurred and cars cost more now.
Also, a fiat 500e has only a 42kWh battery and it only has like 150 miles of range, and is still 2900lbs. I don't think that light is possible while still being road legal with current battery tech.
I don't even really disagree with you about it being exciting, I just think this argumentation is divorced from reality. You know what I love about my EV? That it's an incredibly good daily, way better than a gas car, and I don't have to do maintenance on my fucking daily so I can putz around with bikes and project cars.
cheeseshcripes@reddit
I have a FIAT 500e, and before I've had super light cars, some of the lightest ever made, EF civic, rx-7s, 80s Subaru's, FRS, MR2, etc. I also worked at a German performance shop, so I know heavy and powerful as well. The 500e has some of the best characteristics of a lightweight car. I don't know if it's because the weight is so low, or if it's because the torque delivery characteristics of the electrics, but it absolutely is one of the most fun lightweight underpowered vehicles I have ever given.
The numbers on the page are not the whole story. And if someone comes on here talking about how it doesn't have range, they don't understand the sacrifices that you normally make with a lightweight car, like the inability to have more than three shopping bags inside of it or a cup holder. If you want something light and small, you generally have to give something up.
xlb250@reddit
It is the reality though. I will be allowed to buy next fun car in 10 months. There is nothing on EV side that comes close to Miata or GR 86.
strongmanass@reddit
Are you talking about the propulsion method or about big, heavy commuter EVs? Very few EVs are designed for fun. I don't think it's an issue with propulsion so much as the objectives of most EVs on the market. Your iX is one of the best examples; it does comfort and luxury brilliantly, but isn't meant for excitement.
xlb250@reddit
Downside is the cost and weight of the motors and battery. An EV Miata can’t be done with current EV technology.
ledfrisby@reddit
Carice TC2 is 590-630 kg, although admittedly it's slow AF, kind of expensive, low production numbers, and 300km range isn't very impressive, but...proof of concept anyway, and it looks great.
strongmanass@reddit
I don't disagree with that (at the Miata price point). But 1) those aren't issues with electric propulsion, they're current technology limitations for a given price. And 2) a sports car doesn't have to be as light as a Miata to be fun. It's literally the lightest production sports car on the market. Everything else is heavier, and a lot of it is still rewarding.
RFK_Cum_Regimen@reddit
No doubt, but there is a threshold of weight where it's just not that fun, or just becomes frightening, depending on how much power we're talking.
xlb250@reddit
It’s not possible now even if you raise the budget.
EV could become light enough to replicate the Miata, but there’s no guarantee. Maybe solid state can get it there.
equitymans@reddit
Totally false lol
strongmanass@reddit
We'll see when Longbow bring their roadster to market.
FalconTurbo@reddit
The myriad of electric MX-5s out there beg to differ. You can DIY or you can go to someone like Electrogenic and get a drop in conversion.
Mother____Clucker@reddit
I think the point they're trying to make is that you can't keep the current Miata recipe, and add electric motors. You add 10% of the car's weight to it (granted, not a HUGE issue, but it's still a consideration), and the price is huge.
If Mazda did decide to make an EV Miata, it would likely be near $50,000, which kills the spirit of the car in my opinion, as a fun sports car for the masses.
FalconTurbo@reddit
More weight but also more power and better braking.
V-Twin-broski@reddit
And that's not a Miata anymore lmao
FalconTurbo@reddit
How so? Wheels, body, seats, windows, boot, bonnet, all the same. The only difference is the power plant.
Captn_Deathwing@reddit
Right thats what makes the miata, its just powerful enough to be fun and thrilling. Now if they revived the RX under the EV title then you'd have a bit better argument but this is changing a lot about what makes a Miata a Miata
FalconTurbo@reddit
This is just ending up as a Scotsman fallacy. It's a brisk, crisp, two door, lightweight sports car. Adding a few kilos and then offsetting those kilos with kilowatts doesn't change the equation any more than they did between generations.
Previous_Platform718@reddit
Except it's not light weight anymore. You might say "it's only 10%" but the Miata community (half-seriously) jokes that the NC Miata is a "boat" for being 250lbs heavier than the previous version despite the bump in power. The people who buy Miatas have already Mazda went to huge lengths to reduce the weight for the successor generation.
A heavier car with the same power to weight ratio does not behave the same as a light car with the same ratio.
I don't mean this with any disrespect but you really just don't get what makes cars like Miatas and previous-generation lotuses special to their target audience. Which is fine, those cars aren't for everyone.
420bIaze@reddit
A 2.0L RF ND automatic probably already weighs more than 250lbs over a 1.5L soft-top ND manual.
FalconTurbo@reddit
No, I get it. My point is that the difference in weight is not too distant from what you get between generations, so unless you want to say that a new MX5 isn't a true MX5, and every one since the original bt the same logic also doesn't count, then your argument is fallacious. You literally cannot make a new car at scale that meets regulations while being as light and nimble as the original MX5. That doesn't negate the potential for a fun sporty two seater with an electric power plant.
MrKuub@reddit
I’m enjoying my Alpine A290 very much, sure at 1490kg its not the lightest, but opposed to most EV’s its a feather.
xlb250@reddit
My first EV was a Mini Cooper which weighed 1400kg. I wouldn’t trade a Miata for it though.
techkernels@reddit
I think the ''soul'' a lot of people are talking about is the engine characteristics, less so pure acceleration or instant torque.
gaius49@reddit
Also tactile controls with loads of feedback.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
That torque isn’t really all that much of a sell. It’s a one trick pony. Cool, it’s fast. So is X electric car from Y manufacturer. They’re all going to effectively accelerate the same. So what entices me to buy A over B besides “it’s got torque”?
If you buy a Miata, you’re not buying it because it makes you tingle when you hear the V8, you’re buying it because it weighs 2,400 lbs, is fun to shift, and is a blast to chuck into corners. You buy a Z06 because a flat plane crank V8 is just the fucking business to hear at 8k. You buy an S2000 because the four banger is amazing to slap off the limiter at 8k and the gearbox is sublime.
You buy these cars because they offer something to differentiate them from one another. So the torque argument doesn’t make sense because a Hummer will launch to 60 in 3.3 seconds and a Lucid Air Sapphire will do it in 1.8 seconds. And if you close your eyes, they’ll effectively feel the same beyond the difference in speed.
Electric cars are great but they’re disposable products. Rarely anyone is preserving a Model 3 or Lucid Sapphire. They’ll come and go, be replaced by the next car, and their legacy is just “this car existed and it had instant torque.” In that same vein, the ZR1X will launch to 60 in 1.68 seconds on a prepped surface AND will sound like a heard of angry rhinos is trying to impale you from behind.
If you like electric cars, sweet. Enjoy them, dude. That’s chill. But there’s a reason a lot of car enthusiasts just don’t get it.
cabs84@reddit
C’mon. There are so many other things that determine the character of how a car drives than the just the power delivery and sounds it makes.
xlb250@reddit
True, but as a car enthusiast I don’t need a sports car to be faster or more relaxing to drive. I need it to be more engaging. Not sure what hobbies you have, but for many hobbies the process is the fun.
cabs84@reddit
modern ICE cars are like mechanical watches but everything is governed by sensors and servo motors to keep the mechanical bits in check.
stoned-autistic-dude@reddit
That’s not the same thing as an electric car with the same copy and paste motor arrangement as the next one.
A flat plane crank drives different from a pushrod which drives different from a 60 degree, and a four feels different from a turbo or supercharged four, all of which feel different from a V6, V8, and V12, in NA or turbo form. They will all drive differently. A manual offers a different experience from a ZF versus a DCT, and PDK is a different experience from BMW’s DCT. MR is different from FMR which is different from FF, which are different from FR versus FR with a transaxle. They will all handle completely different from one another, sound different, feel different, deliver power different.
Meanwhile, a Taycan and E-Tron are the same car and the only difference is suspension tuning. The Tesla Model S Plaid will drive similarly to a Lucid beyond suspension tuning because they use skateboard battery designs and either have three motors or two motors. Some have four motors for torque vectoring. The only difference is the power delivery, but the actual experience is the same when you put the pedal to the floor.
If I blindfolded you and sat you in three different electric cars with similar power, taped your hands in place, and I asked you “were these different cars or the same,” what will be the answer and what is the basis for your answer on nothing but your sense of sound? If I did that in three ICE cars, what will be the answer? That’s the difference.
Again, no hate to electric cars but there is a huge reason people don’t get it. Tech folks love them and yet the “really deep into cars” tech folks buy cars with engines. They might daily an EV but their garage is stacked with ICE cars.
m1a2c2kali@reddit
Seriously, it might not be exactly the same type of experience, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be fun.
RunningSouthOnLSD@reddit
We really don’t know that yet, do we? Could speculate the same about any new car. A Roadster even got sent to space, I’m nearly certain that there are people very interested in keeping and preserving EVs, especially pioneering models.
strongmanass@reddit
Those are also wildly different examples. Of course no one is preserving a Model 3 just like no one is preserving a Camry. The Lucid Sapphire remains to be seen as you say.
The false equivalence petrolheads always make is to say EVs are boring when they're really just talking about cars in boring market segments while comparing them to ICE sports cars. "The Taycan depreciates while the 911 holds its value"...no shit. Look at Taycan vs Panamera. Or more directly, A7 vs e-Tron GT. On that note, the e-Tron GT is worlds better from a driving perspective.
gimpwiz@reddit
I have a 35 year old civic. Shrug.
RunningSouthOnLSD@reddit
I’ve noticed that too. I’m a big fan of a big V8 don’t get me wrong, but watching the argument against EVs shift from “they’re boring and slow” to “I just like the sound better I don’t care if the ICE car I spent thousands on in performance mods is getting blown apart by an electric hippie van” has been pretty funny.
The trick is to have accepted that boring and slow can be fun in its own regard regardless of your fuel source or displacement.
tujuggernaut@reddit
That's kinda of bs. Normal people don't rev engines. Most of them have not taken an engine to the redline multiple times on a drive. Many people I knew who had Miata's had never redlined them. Over at Miata.net, people were constantly asking about more power and the first thing always asked "are you reving it?" And most people were not.
The 13b-MSP was great above 7k. The N55 will give me the same torque at less than 3k. That's the difference between having to drop a gear to overtake versus just mashing the throttle.
strongmanass@reddit
Both are small, lightweight Japanese roadsters with N/A 4 cylinder engines and manual transmissions. Why one over the other? Are the redline and gearbox the only reasons you have an S2000? If the Miata had the same engine and gearbox would you have that instead? Or are there non-drivetrain characteristics that make you prefer the S2000?
gimpwiz@reddit
I dunno who hasn't driven one at this point. In my opinion... no. Maybe something exotic does, but every EV I have driven does not. Instant torque and silent acceleration is neat for a few minutes.
izwald88@reddit
I hear people get over that, however. As all EVs are generally extremely heavy. Their one trick in terms of spirited driving is fast acceleration.
4Rascal@reddit
My motorcycle has a pretty crazy power to weight ratio compared to cars. I can get enough instant power to loop it going 50 easily. I’ve found the thrill of hard acceleration wears off quickly for me but driving dynamics don’t. Thankfully the bike can turn like a mother fucker obviously, but heavier cars that’s sole party trick is straight line launches leave a lot to be desired for me.
xlb250@reddit
When I used to track, the straights were used for relaxation.
4Rascal@reddit
I personally don’t get desensitized to the turning (anywhere near the amount I get desensitized to laying on power) especially not on the bike where I’m leaned the over close to the ground plus a wall or cliff. And ya I agree with you about laying on it after a corner being nice but if it comes at the cost of a ton of extra weight that makes the corners less fun for me and the extra acceleration doesn’t adequately replace that fun
Hustletron@reddit
Yeah it’s like the thrill and unpredictability of a wild bronco vs the tamest majestic horse.
Rodeo gets me hyped. Riding English side saddle doesn’t get me pumped despite the technicality at play there.
Beefstah@reddit
Different strokes for different folks: me, I like turbo lag. If I need a calendar to measure it, even better. That turbo rush feeling of gaining 200lbft extra torque in the space of 500rpm is spectacular.
Vwburg@reddit
I agree with this completely and the push to smaller turbos to reduce lag has killed the ‘fun’ of a turbo. Any modern 4cyl turbo I’ve driven has this instant torque but nothing builds above 3000rpm and it ruins the entire point of an ICE.
xlb250@reddit
I like turbo lag when the car is already fast enough without the turbo. On a slow car it’s so annoying imo.
RFK_Cum_Regimen@reddit
Eh, the force is notable but it still has the character of a laser pointer. I can point it in a direction and it's just instant, but the novelty inevitably fizzles. The bolt-action rifle is still more engaging and thus rewarding. It requires a greater degree of agency to manage. It provides visceral feedback. It's tactile. There's feedback with through with each component in sequence. The differentiation in noise relative to user input. It's a activity that demands finesse. Granted, It's frankly just more fun in that regard. And every rifle feels different, but a pleasure all it's own. An FJ40 might top out at 45mph on the highway, but it's a blast to ruck around in. The spritey performance car a pleasure all it's own.
Granted, I'm looking at this through a biased lens where everything has a manual transmission and isn't a dull crossover, and I'm not sitting in traffic for six hours. To each his own.
The_GeneralsPin@reddit
Errr, no. Having driven a few, that instant torque is one-dimensional. Maybe it appeals to simpletons.
Mother____Clucker@reddit
It's exhilarating to experience it, but like the person you replied to, it doesn't get the "fizzle gland juicing". A huge amount of the fun are the induction and exhaust noises. That may fade as the world becomes increasingly electrified, and younger generations start to not know a world that has those sounds, and the excitement of rowing gears. But for many of us, being pinned to your seat in silence just isn't as much fun.
ButtfuckerTim@reddit
Nissan Leaf: FEEL THE MOTHERF**KING FURY!
six3oo@reddit
yeah no they don't. been in a plaid. boring after the first launch
Percolator2020@reddit
Some people have weaker glands than others. Talk to your doctor about testosterone treatment.
cat_prophecy@reddit
I admit it wasn't as much fun as something that makes big V8 noises, buy put your foot down in a quick EV and your "fizzle glad" will juice.
gaius49@reddit
I have yet to find an EV I don't strongly dislike driving, but that's just me.
RevvCats@reddit
I’m going on 7 years of owning a big dumb loud V8 and yeah it still stretches that lizard brain itch.
I’d love to drive something like the SC01 because that EV seems like it would be a ton of fun and would be a good test to see just how important noise is for me.
opeth10657@reddit
I have a fusion sport and a '00 Lightning. The fusion is quicker, handles better and rides better
lighting is 100x more fun to drive
Le_Vagabond@reddit
I replaced an mk1 R8 with a dual motor BYD Seal. The Seal honestly holds up extremely well in comparison, be it power, handling or sheer pleasure.
OkSchool619@reddit
Exactly like a cassette player. Nostalgia having a relic from the past just don't recommend it to others.
4Rascal@reddit
Maybe more like record players? You get good enough quality electronically nowadays but the records seem to keep their appeal with audiophiles right?
OkSchool619@reddit
Love this. Switching my tune now =]
4Rascal@reddit
Badum tisss
FrankReynoldsCPA@reddit
fuck off, tesla cultist
OkSchool619@reddit
You are aware the 150 driver is known to be just as bad or way worse. You are cancer.
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Except certain older designs are flat out better at certain things. There’s a reason the kit and continuation business exists for the Shelby cobra, Shelby daytona, and gt40 with values holding strong.
BicycleMage@reddit
Cassettes are still widely produced and sold!
PurpleSausage77@reddit
SC01 is awesome, it’s silent, delivers s/c’d V8 power instantly, comfortable, easy to drive, I can just chill in every day traffic. Definitely recommend if you can find one.
Just need to V8 swap my FRS, and it would be my perfect combo.
RevvCats@reddit
Sadly I don’t see them coming to the US anytime soon
FSUfan35@reddit
Nothing like a Citroen AX
Percolator2020@reddit
And thank god for that.
ZetaM3@reddit
My Mach E Rally definitely gets the fizz going.
hermitcraftfan135@reddit
To me it does, but I’ve also never driven any kind of “sporty” car.
SPorterBridges@reddit
"Digital things leave me cold."
The cry of analog bros for the last four decades as their favorite stuff gets replaced by 1s and 0s.
carsarefuntodrive@reddit
I wouldn't mind a digital dash, if I could display useful (to me) engine info. I REALLY dislike the "stick a big TV on the dash" vibe; they look like they were installed by 2 stoned teenagers working at Crazy Eddie's Car Audio Shop. Also, less bright dash, please. This IS still a CAR, that is driven at night.
MyNameIsNemo_@reddit
Teslas go into dark mode at sunset automatically. Not sure about other makes.
nyanslider@reddit
They all pretty much dim at night and are adjustable by the dimmer switch that's been on cars forever.
MyNameIsNemo_@reddit
Right, so I guess I am missing the part about them being too bright at night. I figured most would dim, I just didn’t want to speak on a model I wasn’t familiar with.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
Pretty much, but it doesn't make them wrong. It's a personal preference. There's a reason a market for watches and record players and a huge second hand market for old fashioned tech exists.
Teledildonic@reddit
And there is legitimate charm and subjective advantages to some of the old stuff.
My favorite example is records: you get some some artwork that generally does not come with digital downloads, and you can do some cool stuff with it that other physical formats cannot.
BeigeChocobo@reddit
1910's bros were probably saying this about electric starters
Larcye@reddit
I look at my ducatti 916 and its glorious analog gauges and I about lose myself. I look at my S1000RR digital dash and just go whatever.
A-am i the analog bro???
DifficultCarob408@reddit
Yep, James is just being pedantic for the sake of it. I can almost guarantee he's probably referred to some of the cars he drove on Top Gear as having soul / being soulless.
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
I mean they had a whole schtick when the alfa 159 came out where James had to do the whole review without saying it has "soul" or "character" or any other buzzwords, or put a pound coin in a jar if he did. So he's definitely aware of how that sort of language sounds.
eggs_and_ham_i_am@reddit
It's just in the wording to say have the whole "cars have soul" thing. It all amounts to the same thing.
When I talk about driving an EV, I refer to it as sterile. They're dull to drive. It's perfect for the tired everyday commute, picking up kids from school, taking them to clubs and doing the boring mundane duties, Because it's easy to drive. But it's so void of character.
strongmanass@reddit
One is descriptive, the other is a value judgment. Mechanical character is not necessarily desirable; it's a set of characteristics that are inherently neutral. Calling something soulless is applying a negative value judgment because "soulless" is used exclusively negatively.
ShiftF14@reddit
Also the character of something can be described. It doesn’t just have to be “has or doesn’t have”
Time-Maintenance2165@reddit
That's wrong though. They do have character. There's no ICE with a character like them. It's that almost all of them have nearly the exact same character.
ucbiker@reddit
I agree but I tend to think that’s true of a lot of modern cars.
martin509984@reddit
People arguing over exact phrasing while ignoring the obvious intended point? On the internet?
xlb250@reddit
The intended point doesn’t make sense. Having soul implies that it is an attribute of the car, not a subjective interpretation.
Critical-Positive858@reddit
annoying pedantry
AFrozen_1@reddit
I can kinda get it. I think the whole “it’s got soul” is just a convenient way to say “it’s exciting and has some characteristic that sets it apart from other cars”. I mean just look at your average parking lot and notice how many black, gray, white, and silver cars they are. Cars with real color and personality are rare these days. The Hagerty video on the Bronco Raptor said it best when it described regular cars as “widgets”.
newcarguy2019@reddit
New cars certainly don't.
Creature_Cumfarts@reddit
Typically based take from James May. Every leaking Italian shitbox somehow has "soul" but a thunderous V8 luxury coupe from Japan is seen as "soulless".
Bonerchill@reddit
Drive a GTV6 and drive an LC500.
Tell me which one has more emotion.
Creature_Cumfarts@reddit
I'd absolutely love to. But I suspect you might be surprised by my conclusion.
Bonerchill@reddit
It is possible- after all, Thomas Kinkade became a millionaire, Fifty Shades of Grey was a bestseller, and The Big Bang Theory ran for 12 seasons.
Creature_Cumfarts@reddit
What an airtight argument! The Lexus is clearly the braindead mainstream pick between those two, not the Alfa that every supposed enthusiast creams their jeans over because the automotive press tells them to.
Bonerchill@reddit
In fairness, I chose a $25k Alfa whose dynamics are front-heavy and whose silhouette is polarizing and that I have driven for some miles. It is flawed, but it rouses one’s passions.
Yes, the mainstream press is often singing the praises of a checks notes 40+-year-old hatchback and extolling it as the very definition of soul itself. By jove, you’ve cracked their secret and shaken them to their core! Motor Trend shant hardly get away with it any longer and evo will stop including GTV6s in their COTY tests.
I’ll be more fair: the LC500 starts at $103k. This car on BaT didn’t sell but likely is worth around the same: https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1965-alfa-romeo-giulia-sprint-gt-21/
Watch the video. Watch one of an LC500 test drive. Which one gets the enthusiast blood pumping?
Storm_Chaser06@reddit
The LC500, V8 Thunder, and it looks better as well
korko@reddit
Any time Top Gear drove an Alfa I’d skip it because the whole “it’s shit but its Italian so soul” was so exhausting.
jasonfromearth1981@reddit
That's because you don't understand it.
And that's ok.
korko@reddit
It isn’t a lack of understanding, it is a stupid excuse. Just admit it is a shit car but you like it, that’s fine. But pretending it is better because it is made by a specific country is just fucking dumb. Give the real reasons you like it (handling characteristics, engine feel, whatever) admit it is shit but your like of those things outweighs your reasonability. I’m a car person, I understand as well as anyone buying an unreasonable car, I just think “being Italian” is an incredibly stupid reason.
r00000000@reddit
I agree too, it reminds me of when I was a kid and people who just described video games as fun or bad and didn't really elaborate. I think when people say something is soulless, they either don't know why they don't like it, or they know the reason they don't is dishonest and they'd face backlash. Words like soul, fun, etc. are just PR buzzwords for me.
cannedrex2406@reddit
The bigger problem is, the definition of what people consider "soul" is constantly changing that it loses meaning.
I mean you'll see people saying a 1988 Camry has soul. I mean sure it can, but how does it have any more "soul" than a 2019 Tesla Model 3? It's a bland econobox, with the only benefit the Toyota has, is that it has way more memories and stories in it than the Tesla. But that's not the car itself, that's just the owners experience personifing the car.
FMecha@reddit
The modern use of soul/soulless to praise/complain seems to be shaped by /v/ and then Crowbcat's RE4R review (whose lingo was derived from the former) if it matters.
quattro-4wd@reddit
I agree. All this about cars having a soul is nothing more than astrology for men. You just like the car, it doesn’t have a soul.
harrisonmcc__@reddit
It’s largely an excuse used for shitty manufacturing, Alfa comes to mind.
RodRAEG@reddit
^This. I remember reading an article about the Ferrari 250 GTO and how each one was referred to as having its "own personality," and it really just means "these things were built by hand and the design tolerances are so bad that each car feels different because of it."
TheDragonaut@reddit
Those don't have to be mutually exclusive, being imperfect and different and temperamental is what makes humans unique from each other so why wouldn't it make cars unique too? I have a Miata and a Lotus and while the Miata is objectively a better car in pretty much every measurable way I can definitely tell you which one feels more special and it's not the one with better build quality, NVH, and reliability.
argothewise@reddit
Bro no one actually thinks cars have a soul. We all know what people mean when they say that
Hamsters_In_Butts@reddit
op overheard someone talking about killing two birds with one stone and started crying
Owe-No@reddit
Heard "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and ran to look in the drain
Bonerchill@reddit
People don’t necessarily have souls either.
You tellin’ me that Mark Zuckerberg looks or sounds like a guy who genuinely feels things in response to emotional stimuli?
Why is it so outside the realm of possibility that certain cars feel so distinct as to be given anthropomorphic attributes?
8N-QTTRO@reddit
I'm completely missing the "astrology for men" analogy here. It's not like people will assign cars based on their birth month. It's more like picking a sports team, since there's no rhyme or reason beyond "I like them" or, more often "my dad liked them, so I do too."
XMaximaniaX@reddit
It's more like, astrology is made up but you believe there to be meaning where there isn't. Same with car bros who look for a soul in the car that connects them to the road and they feel one with the machine. It's all about looking for deeper meaning when it's all made up
The_Soldiet@reddit
Call it soulless all you want, but the most fun car I've ever had or driven is my current Model 3 Performance. The way it handles and the instantaneous acceleration just puts a smile on my face everytime. Insane value at ~50k USD brand new and barely costs anything to run (if you have a home charger).
I'd love a Miata as a second car, but I'm convinced that if you can only have 1 daily, then the Model 3 Performance is the best car in the world.
Storm_Chaser06@reddit
“EVs have no soul” is a brain dead argument. Just say you don’t like EVs because you like noise.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
He's always been the most forward looking & accepting of the trio, he has dallied a number of teslas, his grand tour review of the NSX even was quite positive & he took it as his car of choice on the ice/hybrid/ev trip, think he had a mirai as well or something?
I don't think its a particularly surprising take coming from him
Parcours97@reddit
For me personally ICE cars just don't have the soul that horse carriages used to have. I just need the sound and smell from horses and the simple mechanics of wooden axles, not these modern electric engine starters /s
Storm_Chaser06@reddit
Horses have souls, something cars don’t have, take me back to the glory days
Mumphord123@reddit
Yeah ICE cars don’t have the living soul of a horse so they’re boring smh
MLPorsche@reddit
in a youtube Q&A he did answer that he thinks new car enthusiasts will look at EVs differently to old enthusiasts
420bIaze@reddit
I think he was written to play an old curmudgeon character on top gear, and he's since done a hard pivot to change his image to match his actual opinions.
Mythrilfan@reddit
His kitchen channel emphatically proves otherwise.
namegoeswhere@reddit
Yeah, he was literally hired to provide counter opinions to Hammond and Clarkson
DanielG165@reddit
Yeah, I remember when May showed off the 5th gen Camaro design on Top Gear, and was genuinely excited/impressed by it, whereas Clarkson clowned on it. May has always been the most chill and accepting person on the trio for sure.
FSUfan35@reddit
Drove the exorcist Camaro by Hennessey in grand tour as well. May does like a muscle car
PolarWater@reddit
LOOSEN THESE STRAPS.
ajrf92@reddit
In the end, the only sane guy from Top Gear will be Jezza 😂
Kinseijin@reddit
and why do we need this random celebrity's opinion on this?
8N-QTTRO@reddit
Mind you, the "random celebrity" in question is one of the most successful car journalists of all time.
strongmanass@reddit
Brian Cox weighs in on astrology
"who tf is this rando and why should i care"
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Or Shakespeare
PolarWater@reddit
...I think you mean astronomy
randomdestructn@reddit
an ex of mine studied astrophysics and this happened in conversations with her like every. week. lol
people don't know the difference
strongmanass@reddit
I know the difference. Astrology is exactly what I meant.
strongmanass@reddit
I meant astrology. The broad analogy I was making was authority on subject matter opines on questionable pop culture terminology and beliefs related to their field...random internet man doubts relevance of expert's opinion
It was hyperbole by stretching both the expertise (auto journalism -> particle physics) and the pop culture belief (cars have soul -> a person's soul is tied to relative celestial body positions)
NonPoliticalAcct3646@reddit
Anyone who thinks EVs don’t have “soul” hasn’t driven a Model S Plaid. That thing will leave your soul behind when you floor it.
willpc14@reddit
Wasn't May the one that did the Alfa review where he had a swear jar on the dash for every time he said soul?
TheWolfofBinance@reddit
My Alfa has a soul.
ob_knoxious@reddit
My Alfa has lost 50% or it's soul in two years due to soul depreciation.
Averageinternetdoge@reddit
Is it a broken soul like most alfas?
TheWolfofBinance@reddit
I'll hurt you...
No it's been fairly reliable. A few issues early on but they were patched out.
xgoodvibesx@reddit
It's a recurring theme he's come back to over the years. His position is it's lazy / hacky writing.
KellerMB@reddit
That's because Alfa's do have a soul, or at least a piece of Ugo's. Cars don't. There's a difference.
bullet50000@reddit
It’s always felt like a lazy way to either justify disliking something for a reason you know will be unpopular, liking something for a reason that you don’t want to say, or pretending to be smarter/more “into the scene” than other people.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
In my experience, it's not an unwillingness to say what it is. Instead, it's a lack of understanding and vocabulary. Most people simply can't articulate what they like, so they default to "it has soul" as a stand-in for actual analysis.
For example, when Japanese V8s are compared to American V8s, many people will say the Japanese engines don't "have soul" because they're smoother and more consistent from the factory when compared to a rough American engine. It's not necessarily intentional xenophobia, it's often an inherent bias towards the familiar that a lot of people aren't able to overcome when comparing two things that are similar on the surface.
bullet50000@reddit
So the Xenophobia reason was not an issue to the same degree at current. It was more a thing I remember seeing back in like the 80s and 90s. If you look back at some old reviews. You’ll see it used by dumb journos when the Japanese sports cars were doing the super high tech cutting edge driver assistances and engine features, so you’d see it lobbed at cars like the 3000GT, the NSX, and the 300ZX.
I can see your reasoning though. That does make sense as a way to just not say “there’s uniqueness about it that’s comforting instead of perfection of a sort”
JK_Chan@reddit
Didn't people say the lfa had soul?
Wiseguy_7@reddit
I think some cars do have souls. But not in the same sense as how people have souls. Soul in this instance is the emotional response that's brought upon by the sensations and sounds while interacting with the car.
Could the emotional response be because of flaws in the car? Of course. That's why it has soul.
So a car having a soul is not something objectively quantifiable, but more an amalgamation of feelings that you get from interacting with one.
Cars these days are so insulated from the outside world when you're in one it feels like a driving sim at home that magically gets you places. But they inherently isn't a bad thing, just different.
TLDR: when someone describes a car has soul it means it gives them the Fizz but not really elaborating on much else. Therefore not really explaining anything.
V48runner@reddit
All auto reviewing is just regurgitating the same trite lines over and over.
The soft touch points feel cheap and plasticky, and I'm turned off by the vast swaths of piano black. The befuddling touch screen interfaces are marred by intrusive lag and counterintuitive menus.
Chris_14Z@reddit
Clarkson would disagree
Jabba_the_Putt@reddit
There are a lot of ice cars with no soul either.
To me, soul is a car with a personality and most ev have the personality of a hair dryer so it does feel rather soulless
benedictfuckyourass@reddit
This is just semantics, "it's not a soul it's mechanical character"
Yeah sure and i don't have a soul either just a flesh and bone character🤷♂️
Quaiche@reddit
Well he might disagree about cars having souls but he still bought that manual and blue 992 T based on a very similar feeling.
Infamous-Damage3112@reddit
The whole may bloodline is lazy. Make a car James I'll pay you more than BBC lol
psaux_grep@reddit
I for one enjoyed reading Clarkson’s book «I know you got soul».
FuchsNMinilites_@reddit
In my admittedly narrow-minded view, “emotion” and “soul” are often just convenient buzzwords used to excuse lackluster driving dynamics. Because in the real world, that’s usually what it comes down to when you actually drive the kinds of cars self-proclaimed enthusiasts describe as being “full of emotion and passion.”
It doesn’t matter whether a car is from 1970 or 2026 - it’s either good to drive, or it isn’t. I’m not interested in a toy that tries to pass off weak dynamics or poor build quality as “character traits.” I want a fundamentally honest, reliable tool - something that can take a beating, with a strong focus on driving dynamics, feelsome controls, and low weight. A car that does exactly what I ask of it, without getting in the way of my driving. That also means excellent build quality.
There are plenty of cars from the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, and ’90s that meet this standard - and even one or two from the 2020s. None of them are great because of their imperfections. Quite the opposite. I don’t see how “emotion” and “passion” - often just euphemisms for flaws - would make the experience any better.
Different strokes for different folks.
AmericanExcellence@reddit
whatever. call it personality. the variety of moods a good engine has, depending on conditions, is kind of crazy. the variety responses / attitudes it has, depending on exact inputs, is pretty wild. are we just trying to pretend it's not true?
SuperShyChild@reddit
We all know what it means. Its shorthand for it feels alive (has a soul) because it has human like traits like flaws and imperfections, strengths and weaknesses. It makes noise, it vibrates, it rumbles, it can be interacted with by changing gear and being revved out. It is subjective, sure but its an opinion about a car so of course its subjective.
PRSArchon@reddit
Rofl by your interpretation every rattly old manual ICE has soul, this is exactly what is wrong with the term because that is NOT how most people would use the term at all.
k_dubious@reddit
Cars can be an artistic expression by their creators that's designed to evoke strong emotions in the people who experience them. Of course they don't have souls, but a car can absolutely "have soul" in exactly the same way that a film or piece of music would.
tablepennywad@reddit
Saying a car has “soul” is arguing whether a dish is “authentic.” It means something different to everyone. The most authentic dish is simply the one you grew up with. For many, that old fuddy car you grew up with was lame, but absolutely nostalgic and most love to have it again. That is more soul than any kia.
Woodeecs@reddit
"Soul" has been used for multiple decades now as a very easily understood way to say a car has great mechanical feel and theater. "Soul" is a fantastic and concise way to get a point across in very few words.
And for the record, saying something "has soul" isn't exclusive to automotive journalism. We use it to describe all sorts of objects and experiences.
So many people in this comment section are either being intellectually dishonest about this or they struggle heavily with the concept of a metaphor.
costafilh0@reddit
I disagree.
Not because he is wrong, but simply because it is easier to say 'have soul' than 'have mechanical and dynamic character', and easy don't necessarily mean lazy, just effective communication, and he is known for taking longer than necessary.
-GenlyAI-@reddit
Yep. And this is why manual will always be better than automatic.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
It's amazingly exhausting how you people manage to make every single conversation about manual transmissions.
PolarWater@reddit
Truly the vegans of the car world
-GenlyAI-@reddit
Don't be mad you can't drive stick
-GenlyAI-@reddit
Sorry. Should have put an /s. I was poorly making a point that just because something is "more mechanical" doesn't necessarily mean it's more dynamic or has more character.'
I drive an auto Golf R btw.
8N-QTTRO@reddit
Fair enough. I've seen way too many people say this kind of thing genuinely.
PolarWater@reddit
Y'all the vegans of the car world
8N-QTTRO@reddit
But it's not effective communication, since nobody can agree on what "soul" is. It's vague and meaningless sentimentality.
Suitedbadge401@reddit
You’re creating an equivalency which is entirely subjective. I could just as easily say EVs and self driving cars have more “soul” because they can literally drive themselves, adjust torque output more optimally based on a wider range of factors (like a human) etc.
I’d be wrong though, because “soul” by the end of the day, is ironically an empty term with which you can fill your subjective opinion with.
The49GiantWarriors@reddit
Except "have mechanical and dynamic character" is, more or less, objective. Meanwhile, saying something "has soul" is subjective, and in the west, saying something "has soul" is almost always cast as a positive thing. Conversely, saying something "has no soul", or implying it, is always an insult.
Woodeecs@reddit
Yeah go drive an CT9A Evo and then go drive a G80 and try and say that again lol.
JordanRunsForFun@reddit
I mean… a horse had more soul than a car but here we are.
Car-face@reddit
I mean he's right, it's usually something people throw in alongside wordsalad about why something is "good" (if it has it) or "Bad" (if it doesn't) without actually giving a valid reason for it.
I like cars that have a unique character, or stand out from the norm - but that doesn't make a conventional car bad or even unattractive, and it certainly doesn't mean a car has "soul" simply because it's unique or stands out.
Words like soul have always been applied as a kind of gatekeeping term well before any of the current crop of cars came on the market, and from memory James has called out that sort of nonsense previously. You're allowed to like something because it tickles you without trying to claim there's some higher reason for it - "soul" is just a way of projecting insecurity about your interests, IMO.
ryzenguy111@reddit
IMO either all cars have soul or none do
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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weaponR@reddit
It's like saying a sports team didn't win because they "didn't want it enough." Lazy commentary.
g-4-ces@reddit
Hammond to May - “what do you mean soul, are you talking about Kia”
Clarkson - “Hammond you idiot!”
rudbri93@reddit
I agree with him. It should mean that it grabs you subjectively and you connect with it, but its turned into a has/doesnt have it thing that gets tossed around like fact.