US, Hamas reportedly hold direct talks, as Board of Peace disarmament plan stalls
Posted by SpontaneousFlame@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 85 comments
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loggy_sci@reddit
Makes sense from the Palestinian perspective to insist that Israel abide by its obligations before they give up their heavy weapons. Israel isn’t acting in good faith and there is no reason to think they will suddenly start doing so.
TheJewPear@reddit
As if Hamas gives a shit about the rights of common Palestinians… all they care about is staying in power, and the math they’re doing is whether they’ll have more power if they continue to fight Israel, or if they limit their losses and give up their arms.
loggy_sci@reddit
Palestinians do not believe they will achieve statehood if they give up armed struggle, and they have only to look at the West Bank as proof. Israel cannot or will not stop its settlers from violating Palestinian rights. Israel is not abiding by its agreements and there is no reason to believe they will suddenly begin to start.
TheJewPear@reddit
And how did the “armed struggle” against civilians has been working for them thus far?
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
How has the lack of armed struggle helped those in the West Bank?
TheJewPear@reddit
Their population is alive, employed, has like 6x GDP per capita. They’re far, far better off.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
What a ridiculous stretch to try and make a point unsuccessfully.
TheJewPear@reddit
Have you even been to the West Bank? I have. Life there is a thousand times better than Gaza.
Murdering civilians does not work and will never, ever result in peace.
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
There was a literal genocide enacted in Gaza, so yes I would assume that it's better in the West Bank comparatively.
But it is not heaven on earth for the Palestinians and the "settlers" who are essentially colonizing piece of shit thieves, have increased their destruction and terrorism tenfold, aided and abetted by the IDF.
Things are getting worse, not better and that's without any Hamas involved.
With or without Hamas, Israel is continuing their "greater Israel", except they're doing it completely openly now.
TheJewPear@reddit
Greater Israel is bullshit. Most Israelis are motivated by a fear of another Oct7, and they’re right to be, even if some of their actions are wrong.
The only way forward is a two state solution, not more terror and violence.
loggy_sci@reddit
Things are better in Ramallah than in Gaza is an insane argument. Gaza is a war zone. None of this absolves Israel of reining in their religious whacko settlers. What is happening in the West Bank 100% fuels Palestinian belief that Israel will never act in good faith and will never respect Palestinian rights.
You cannot get around this not matter how many dumb as fuck comparisons you try to make.
TheJewPear@reddit
Who’s talking about absolving anyone? We are comparing the state of those that have chosen a path of violence towards civilians, to those that have chosen a path of relative peace.
Of course Israel doesn’t act in good faith, neither do the PA and Hamas. But violence has made everything worse for Gazans.
loggy_sci@reddit
The “you made me kill you” narrative is tired when the Palestinians try to use it, and it’s even more exhausting when Israelis trot it out.
The barrier to peace in the Israel/Palestinian conflict currently is the Israeli government. They are not abiding by their phase 1 agreements. They will never do so, because Israel doesn’t want peace with Palestinians, it wants them gone. Israel will never control its settlers.
TheJewPear@reddit
Yes, both sides’ narratives are idiotic, but somehow many people still believe them after all these years of war and death.
The barrier to peace is the leaderships of both of them. Hamas’ charter calls for the destruction of Israel, and they’ve repeatedly opposed a two state solution. I’d say that’s one hell of a barrier. The PA doesn’t have majority support, it would appear, and Abbas has basically thrown away every chance that was given to him in past peace talks.
It seems very safe to assume that none of the three have any interest in peace, and it’s not surprising either, since all three have gained power and money from this conflict, and stand to lose quite a lot if and when it ends.
meister2983@reddit
Yes. 4% of the population hasn't been killed in the past 2 years. Nothing even close to that
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
Huh? The "settlers" are running roughshod over the land that is owned by Palestinians and getting attacked literally daily, with the help of the IDF.
meister2983@reddit
Hardly the same pain level as mass death and 80% of your buildings being destroyed
Iamover18ustupidshit@reddit
For now.
meister2983@reddit
It does make my point though. I would much rather be in the West Bank than Gaza. Does your opinion differ?
loggy_sci@reddit
Oh well then by all means let’s ignore all of the other ways that Israeli settlers and religious nut jobs violate Palestinians rights constantly, because their death count isn’t as high as in the active war zone in Gaza.
That is an insane argument. You clearly didn’t think this one through. Back to the drawing board.
meister2983@reddit
I am considering it. Area C is still better than Gaza even considering it.
And Area A doesn't even have these problems
loggy_sci@reddit
Not well. Is that supposed to be some kind of response to post?
meister2983@reddit
Opinions are divided, but yes there are many idiots in Palestine who believe the armed struggle is working, falling to notice that it seems to just result in less and less territory and more and more oppression over time.
Because the Palestinians won't settle for peace, they lost any incentive to bother
loggy_sci@reddit
They know it’s not working but also that Israel will never willingly give them a state.
meister2983@reddit
Then what's the point? Leaves them worse off
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
I do wonder about some of the illogic here. Apparently every member of Hamas doesn’t care that Israel murders their friends and family with impunity. They don’t care about anyone or anything other than power. But they then join a resistance/terrorist group instead of colluding with the IDF, which would get them much more real power…
TheJewPear@reddit
I’m talking about Hamas’s leadership. The ones that mysteriously become multi-millionaires despite never having any career or business involvement other than Hamas.
Obviously Israel’s aggression is an efficient recruiting mechanism for sacrificial troops.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
The ones that Israelis assure us are multi-millionaires but haven’t provided any proof for, yet? The ones that are dead? They are the ones you are talking about wanting power? And money? Posthumously?
TheJewPear@reddit
Yes, most of them are dead thankfully, but I’m sure there will be others jumping at the opportunity for more power and money.
Is it news to you that Hamas leaderships aims to perpetuate the conflict, since that’s where their power and money comes from?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
Where and what is this proof that you surely have that the leaders of Hamas does rich?
Also, how stupid were they? Did any of their IQs go over 60? I only ask because they are obviously, in your eyes, just in it for power and personal gain yet chose a path that was guaranteed to get themselves murdered by Israel.
CricketJamSession@reddit
You would think that a population that fears genocide would think that keeping weapons that can't stop israel, would only endanger them.
But that is a different narrative which is not useful in this post
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
If they don’t have weapons what’s to stop Israel mass murdering them with no Israeli casualties?
Six months ago every Israeli defender was saying that if Hamas agreed to a truce Israel would stop murdering babies. Hamas agreed to a truce and Israel carried on murdering babies. Many pointed out it was complete BS.
Now, Israel’s defenders assure us, if Hamas disarms then Israel will stop murdering babies…
CricketJamSession@reddit
Lets see..
Not using weapons pre oct 7 = gaza is thriving
Hamad use weapons to mass murder = gaza is pounded
Clearly using weapons against israelis don't help
valentc@reddit
You think Gaza was "thriving" before Oct 7th? Its been called the largest open air prison for decades now, and Gaza is completely blockade from the world by Israel. Israel controls what goes in and out. They have no sovereignty.
God damn, Israel defenders are some of the the most disgusting people with the worst opinions.
"Gaza was thriving before Oct 7th" might be the most stupid way I've heard anyone defend genocide.
meister2983@reddit
Compared to today? Yes, lol. How's that even a question?
And now it is half the size!
And? The UN security council has formally ended that legally speaking so oh well
BroMan001@reddit
No not compared to today, in absolute terms. Moron. Every country would be thriving currently compared to if it were to be completely flattened. That’s irrelevant
meister2983@reddit
How's it irrelevant? We're analyzing policy Palestine should take and clearly Gaza chose bad policy looking at the past 3 years
miseconor@reddit
You’re arguing with an Israeli fyi, just check post history
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
CricketJamSession:
Two weeks before October 6 Israel was mass murdering people in Gaza. Unemployment was at 50% due to shutdown of the economy by Israel. Due to the shutdown of medicine and medical equipment imports there were shortages of most basic medicines, with long waits for permission to escape Gaza and get medical treatment in the West Bank. People died waiting for the IDF to decide to give them permission. This includes children with treatable conditions.
Technology is strictly regulated. Modern equipment is denied Palestinians - they are month allowed to use 3G phones in Gaza.
Basically, you think concentration camps are “thriving.” Israelis and Zionists really do get off on inflicting suffering, don’t you?
BroMan001@reddit
Jesus Christ dude, I know you’re delusional but this is another level
miseconor@reddit
So you seriously still think this started on Oct 7th? Gaze was not “thriving” pre Oct 7. There was routine bombing of the strip. Including in the month before Oct 7th.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_bombing_of_the_Gaza_Strip#:~:text=There%20were%20three%20days%20of,threw%20explosives%20at%20Israeli%20posts.
Fearless-Feature-830@reddit
That’s like saying the Black folks in apartheid South Africa were thriving
KaiBahamut@reddit
It wasn't thriving, they were still being killed- remember the Great March of Return in 2019? Over 220 dead during an attempt at peaceful protesting.
Oh, don't forget how they can't even fucking fish in their own waters or own a proper port.
Vast_Particular_@reddit
How is the West Bank doing these days? Thriving?
meister2983@reddit
Mostly international pressure and the fact that their weapons are completely infective today against airstrikes.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
You mean nothing? Like has been happening in Gaza since the ceasefire was signed?
loggy_sci@reddit
Why would anyone think that? It makes zero sense.
MrTatyo@reddit
Fears genocide? You mean you want them to disarm during an active genocide?
That's like asking the Jewish community in the Warsaw ghetto uprising to hand over weapons, hop on that train and have good manners while they're at it.
ElSunBloc@reddit
Does it really make sense? If israel was able to commit genocide when hamas had heavy weapons, whether they have heavy weapons or not doesnt change the power dynamics.
Perhaps the real issue is, like any group or person in power, they will try to hold on to that power by any means (i.e., netanyahu)
What is the most likely cause for the delay is that hamas is still trying to maintain its control over gaza and for israel that is a non-starter considering oct 7.
Kahzootoh@reddit
Yes. It makes sense.
You are conflating Israel’s ability to commit genocide against the Palestinians with the ability to defeat Hamas. Israel can slaughter Palestinian civilians, but it cannot make Hamas grovel- that is the crux of the issue here.
Disarming Hamas is about reducing its ability to resist the next wave of Israeli war crimes against Palestinians, and Hamas clearly isn’t interested in dancing to Israel’s tune- and the Israelis aren’t in a position to force them to, otherwise they would have already done it.
The Israelis are hysterical by nature, they need constant emotional reassurance of their superiority and the continued resistance by Hamas is corrosive to Israeli confidence in their ability to dominate the entire region. If they can’t even make Hamas submit to them, how are they supposed to control and brutalize 500 million people in perpetuity?
ElSunBloc@reddit
Israel cant defeat hamas because hamas is hiding behind civilians lol
SRGsergan592@reddit
You kept repeating that lie for 2 years and produced nothing more than the IDF said so as evidence.
CricketJamSession@reddit
Wait a minute..
Trying to convince people that hamas doesn't hide behind civilians is still a thing in some circlekjerks?
MrTatyo@reddit
It's one of the most densely populated areas in the world? Like Israel did use a hospital in Israel as a command center to give instructions on how to commit genocidal acts and enforce an apartheid. Are you saying you accept that entire hospital to be blown up to kill Bibi?
CricketJamSession@reddit
How does your whataboutism proves that hamas is not using human shields?
BroMan001@reddit
How did you prove it? The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
MrTatyo@reddit
One of the most densely populated areas in the world because Israel is constantly pushing and moving the civilian populations into smaller spaces.
The city has no buildings - where are people supposed to go? If you force 2 million people into a small area with no infrastructure where are people supposed to go?
For example the Jewish Defensive League is a terrorist organization operating out of new York. Your telling me anyone can bomb the entire area of the city because they are terrorists somewhere in the block and other civilians killed are considered a human shields?
valentc@reddit
How does repeating it over and over prove that they use them?
Have any evidence that isn't from 2014? We have proof Israel used Palestinians as human shields, but none that Hamas used them in the current conflict.
ElSunBloc@reddit
Dude, israel has fighter jets and tanks. In a conventional war it would be no contest.
Killeroftanks@reddit
That implies Israel cares about civilians, which is factually false so...
What's your next shitty argument?
Proper-Community-465@reddit
If Israel truly didn't care about civilians there wouldn't be any left. Or at least the international pressure that cares about civilians. You would see an actual genocide and Hamas would have surrendered by now.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
That's illogical. Israel objectively did starve the population for most of the war. They also systematically destroyed so much housing that nearly the entire population is living in tents for the forseeable future. They have targeted every single medical clinic without exception, as well as drinking water and sewage. Intentionally creating a crisis of untreated disease. While blockading basic medicines like antibiotics and therapeutic foods that would help people survive injury.
Have you heard the testimony from doctors who had to watch patients deteriorate with wounds that could not heal because there was no way to feed the NPO patients? Children with gut and neck injuries who could not be tube fed and just starved. Trying to keep newborns alive on dextrose because Israel blocked baby formula, and most of the mothers were too dehydrated to breastfeed.
It is completely insane to look at a situation where every means of civilian survival has been systematically targeted as a primary method of war, and still, imagine that Israel has tried to protect civilians.
At a certain point, "warning" people seconds before bombing them for the 10th time sending them scurrying like rats with nothing and nowhere to go is just a means of genocide. It's a means to keep them unstable, displaced, and strip them of what little they were able to salvage the first couple of times so that the deprivation will do the dirty work for you and they'll disappear into the so far uncounted numbers of indirect deaths.
Imagine being chased from home to shelter to tent to street over and over until you're left trying to scrape by with nothing and tell me that sounds like "protection".
Proper-Community-465@reddit
It's definitely crappy no question about that and yet the actual death toll including medical deaths is around what 80k? Doesn't really speak to mass starvation or carpet bombing. More like controlled demolition and limiting food but letting it stabilize before catastrophe. If they completely cut off food Hamas would have to surrender. If they indiscriminately carpet bombed we'd see a million+ dead. Urban warfare is always awful and these numbers are actually pretty tame especially considering Gaza largely couldn't evacuate.
https://civiliansinconflict.org/our-work/conflict-trends/urban-warfare/
90% civilian casualty rates in Urban warfare are the norm. Personally I'm more upset about the awful Prisoner treatment and defending rapist. Though with how awful our prisoner and POW treatment has been I'm not sure America has much room to talk.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
The 80k only accounts for direct deaths from violence that were accounted for by the hospital system. It does not include the indirect deaths, which tend to be 2-4× higher on average in military conflicts. Given the siege, displacement, destruction, and Israel continued retriction of aid, Gaza is likely to be on the high end. You're comparing complete totals to a partial count of hospital records, which should be illegitimate on its face.
Israel absolutely did not allow the food situation to stabilize before cutting them off. That is simply a lie debunked by literally every single aid organization without exception. Gaza saw the fasted degradation in nutrition status in recorded history. The world's leading expert in famine called it a meticulously engineered catastrophe.
Doctors and journalists who served during the other urban warfare environments like Rwanda and Sarajevo were shocked by the systematic brutality. The infrastructure destruction is compared to Stalingrad.
Also, the fact that so much of the infrastructure was demolished instead of destroyed as collateral damage indicates that there was no legitimate immediate military objective. Something confirmed by IDF testimony declaring that they wanted to deny Hamas future use of a building. In many cases, it was the IDF using them and destroying the structures after they were done.
The indirect deaths from this will continue to stack for a couple of generations due to the sheer amount of toxic debris and unexploded mutitions, so any claims that the death toll is only in the tens of thousands is misleading at best.
Refusing to deal with the full weight of the catastrophe and attempting to block all efforts to accurately count the casualties should be considered part of the crime, not a reduction of its severity.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
The destruction will likely harm the population for years if not decades no question. If you want to argue the indirect death toll will continue increasing beyond the 6k a year Gaza would normally lose I'm not going to argue. Unless it's rebuilt / people allowed to leave / extreme aid given it's going to be a shitshow. IIRC their were around 3,000 indirect deaths removed from the list when they originally included them. 361 people are recorded dying of malnutrition when famine was reported (Famine is 2 per 10,000 people dying per day) It was limited to Northern Gaza which Hamas controlled. Urban warfare is hell. Sucks and horrible to think about but not out of the norm when 90% of urban causalities are normally civilians.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
The rest of Gaza was listed at crisis and/or catastrophic levels of malnutrition. The hospital care system had almost completely broken down. Treating this situation as if they definitely had a total count when half the Strip is still inaccessible to rescue workers is just plain denial.
Urban warfare is hell. But almost none of the modern urban wars have involved this level of siege warfare and systematic targeting of the healthcare system.
Pretending we know for certain a complete count when that is fundamentally impossible at this stage is completely irresponsible. No one knows the actual death toll. Not you, not the UN, not the Gaza health ministry. No one has conducted a survey to determine excess deaths. No one has even recovered the dead. We do not know how many people have died as a result of the siege. We only know how many were reported and certified. Certified deaths are not the same as a complete record of deaths.
You're misreading the Lancet article. It says 75k violent deaths, plus 8.5k non-violent deaths based on the immediate members in the ~2000 households surveyed. That's 83k deaths so far that had someone left in their household to be surveyed. Jan 2025 was also before the months of total siege that ended in May of the same year. Nothing in that article offers a full estimate of indirect deaths or an accounting of excess mortality. The study fully admits that they have no access to the 20-25% of the population still trapped in the North.
This is that part that gets me: "This approach implicitly assumes similar mortality rates between displaced and non-displaced households from the same Governorate of origin." Even in UN sponsored refugee camps, mortality among young children is about 3x higher than non-displaced people. At the same time, many of the non-displaced people in Gaza have been cut off from all support in an area where the military has openly declared than every person remaining will be presumed a combatant regardless of sex, age or ability. Estimating a low rate of indirect death by surveying intact families who are in the safest possible place under the circumstances is an odd methodology.
That study method is incapable of accounting for the families that were completely wiped out and all of the orphans left behind with no surviving adults in their extended family. 2700 entire bloodlines wiped out, 8000 extended families with one surviving member, 25000 orphans whose families can't be accounted for because of the survey method.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
I was looking at the reported missing people of around 10k and assuming most are dead. but I'll concede without a full census its not complete and impossible to fully know the full number.
FormerLawfulness6@reddit
Yes, that's the problem when entire extended families are killed of and major population centers are completely purged of life in order to raze every last structure to the ground. Keeping track of people becomes increasingly difficult. Especially when medical teams, aid workers, and journalists are beong specifically targeted by the thousand.
It should be fairly obvious to anyone who has a basic grasp of reality that it is irresponsible to treat hospital death records as a full count. No respectable news outlet would do this with any other disaster of any kind. So it's kind of weird that so many people are trying to use the recorded deaths to undermine the scale in Gaza.
Kahzootoh@reddit
You must not know who Israel’s leader is.
The Israelis don’t swiftly exterminate the Palestinians because Israel’s leader uses Palestinian suffering to entertain his country.
There are Israelis who want to kill all of the Palestinians as quickly and efficiently as possible, but they are not the ones in power- there is no shortage of Israelis who say their leader is not ‘finishing the job’.
The Israelis have starved the area and carpet bombed it, particularly in the northern part of Gaza- but their leader doesn’t want to rush the process.
It’s still genocide, but it is genocide at a pace where each murder, rape, theft, torture, or other atrocity can be filmed and maximized for its value as Israeli entertainment.
Proper-Community-465@reddit
So let me get this right. Israel keeps the Palestinians alive to use their suffering as entertainment and that's the only reason they haven't killed them all?
ViccyTheThiccy@reddit
Can y'all genocide supporting shitlibs not use hasbara for like 2 seconds goddamn
whater39@reddit
Hamas was still killing IDF. So one can't say the weapons did nothing.
Dark1000@reddit
Is Gaza in a better state because of Hamas or worse? I'll tell you. It's worse. It doesn't matter if they kill a few IDF soldiers or not. It's completely irrelevant.
They aren't saving Palestinian lives. That's just a fact. If you care about the material well being of Palestinians, not the abstract theory that you are focused on, it isn't much of a debate.
Maximum-Hall-5614@reddit
So instead of demanding an end to the extermination of Palestinians by Israel, you think it’s logical to demand that Palestinians be unable to even put up a semblance of a fight against their extermination?
Their death isn’t enough for you, they need to die without dignity? Shame on you.
KaiBahamut@reddit
It makes sense to me. Jews, Romas and others still fought the Nazi's when they had no chance of winning- surrendering arms means losing even the right to fight back when they come to kill you.
mostard_seed@reddit
Not losing the "right" but any means however small. The right to fight back is always there, or at least should be.
KaiBahamut@reddit
Sadly, the concept of 'rights' aren't real. Hamas disarming when Israel won't even stop killing them (over 400+ since December) is stupid of them. Losing the ability to fight back is the same as losing the right, functionally.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit (OP)
Hamas killed IDF thugs with those heavy weapons. That’s why Israel wants Hamas to disarm - so that Israel can start murdering again in relative safety…
sarim25@reddit
That's like asking resistance groups in WW2 to give up their weapons in the expectations that Nazis would be humane and play fairly.
meister2983@reddit
The Nazis being the board of peace?
BroMan001@reddit
Obviously
Kjartanski@reddit
Ask the Armija Krajowa how humane and fair the nazis were, because Gaza is just another Krakow
sarim25@reddit
Ohh 100% Gaza is similar to Krakow or Warsaw ghetto is more apt.
meister2983@reddit
That makes no sense because they have no ability to enforce that. They are not transferring control to Israel but to the board of peace
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