Why Plastic Magazines?
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 25 comments
Steel is an amazing material to create magazines out of because it is very strong. Even thin sheet steel is be very strong and durable for what it is, especially if you strengthen it with pressings. Steel magazines are still continue to be very popular in rifle and pistol magazines to large caliber rifle magazines.
(HK High Reliablity magazine) https://imgur.com/a/jPq1xTT
The issue can be denting. That can impede the movement of bullets and the follower. Those pressings mentioned earlier can improve on how much of a concentrated force and where the magazine can withstand, however it does not fully eliminate this potential issue.
But bigger issue is corrosion.
Condensation inside the magazine body. Prolonged use in damp environments and moreover rain, water ingress, sea air and the worst of all, corrisive chemicals and salt water exposure: Will overtime cause rust, faster especially on an already well used magazine.
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Why not Aluminum then? It doesn't corrode rust. It rots but with highly resistant alloys that takes a lot of time in exposure to the elements.
(GI M16 MAG) https://imgur.com/a/Ma6P4iY
It is comperatively lighter than steel but the problem is, it is too malleable vs. the thickness it is worth creating a magazine out of.
Aluminum magazines can also be strengthened with pressings the issue of the body being pressed or dented will be larger than on steel magazines.
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Why plastics?
(Magpul PMAG Gen 3) https://imgur.com/a/TuYNkAo
Plastics, like steel is also an amazing material to create magazines out of, despite the lack of strength compared to steel because plastics address the afformentioned shortcomings of steel.
Plastics don't rust, nor does do they rot, they degrade overtime when exposed to the elements. But again, it requires a lot of exposure for plastics that have weather resistant properties to start to seriously degrade and influcence function.
It might be harder to design plastic magazines than steel. It might be more economical to stay with steel mags if you already have manufacturing set up for it. Plus sometimes still can be a requirement.
For plastic mags you need, as always a good magazine design and the right plastic that provides a rigid magazine body but you also want a bit of ealsticity that completely eleminates denting and can help with impacts, and also makes the plastic body harder to crack and shatter. (Yes, you can crack or shatter a plastic mag body if you really put your mind to it.)
But well-designed plastic magazines are likely to do better in without rifle drop-tests than metal mags do. Feed lips can get bent JUST slightly out of shape on metal mags while being perfectly fine in polymer mags and not every designs internals compensate for that so malfunctions will happen. Of course this also that also depends on how overbuilt and well-designed the metal magazine is.
Plastic mags are more likely to launch a cartridge or two out the magazine with a great enough impact excerted on them. That however might not be an issue if you have the magazine inserted in the gun and for example the floorplate impacts the ground with great force because the bolt carrier is pushing against the first cartridge.
What's also good about a plastic magazine is you have plastic on metal contact between the cartridges and magazine body versus metal on metal.
That reduces friction as the cartridges rotate against each other and against the magazine body upon feeding. That reduced friction is especially important in combat use, where always going to flying dust due to movement, vehicles and guns firing and explosions.
Plastic on metal contact vs metal on metal can also be beneficial in cold weather.
Last but not least, plastic magazines tend to be lighter than metal mags.
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But Plastics have their shortcomings too.
The properties of polymers change more drastically in hot and cold weather than of metals.
And that comes out in the most vulerable areas of all magazine, the feed lips.
In below zero °F weather, PMAG feed lips started shattering and more easily cracked when subjected to drop tests. This issue was only fully fixed to my knowledge with the Gen 3 PMAGs changing changing to a bit more durable mould, extending that cracking threshold.
Of course, plastic feed lips can crack and even shatter in many ways and cold-weather is not required, but depending on the crack the feed lips will continue to retain its integrity, however the mag has to be replaced ASAP if its a go-to-war mag. Shattering is another question...And requires a greater force excerted on the feed lips.
Prolonged continous compression MIGHT also damage the feed lips of a plastic magazine so Magpul have been offering dust-covers for the PMAGs that relieve pressure from the feed lips.
https://imgur.com/a/ZM2NvQJ
Is that just a Peace of Mind solution? Or is it absolutely needed for long-term loaded plastic magazine storage? I'd rather keep them stored that way but many might disagree.
On designs like "non mil-spec" Magpul AK mags without any steel reinforcements, Tearing off the magazine tabs can be absolutely an issue. Again, depends on how much of a smack it receives and it can be torn off.
Magazine tabs failures. Some magazines rock and lock magazines like the SIG 550/G36 style would be much better off with reinforced magazine tabs do not have them for various reasons............
https://youtu.be/18JtG4alPT4?t=406 And again, they can be broken. As demonstrated by MAC with a non-mil spec Magpul AK mag.
Even new magazine designs are going with this approach like the QBZ-191 the new Chinese Assault Rifle. The magazine is nothing special its just plastic. Not a good idea for rock and lock.
However all these concerns of plastic feed-lip and even locking tab concers can be eleminated by....
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Hybrid mags.
The Lancer AWM 5.56 magazine has a steel bracket inserted on top of the magazine.
Tis is a good start point to go about the issue of cracked feed lips. But takes you back to the shortcomings of steel. I believe inlaying steel into plastic better.
I can only suspect Lancer did not do that because of compatibility reasons and the space constraints with the 556 STANAG magazine. Curiously enough Lancer used a hybrid approach on another hybrid magazine the 7.62x51mm AWM. Where there's an inlaid tang bracket up front while the feed lips are overlaid.
What may surprise many is the best design template is the 1960s Soviet "Bakelite" AKM magazine in reality made out of AG-4S polymer.
They feature multiple inlaid steel inserts. The most relevant to the topic is the steel feed lip bracket. A steel floorplate with an extended steel bracket inlaid into the bottom portion of the magazine plus a front steel-tang extending halfway down the magazine body, plus the very AK specific front and back steel locking tabs. All seen on this transculent magazine:
This same template was used on future magazines for the AK-74 as well and new Polyamide magazines for the AK-100 series and the AK-12 magazine.
Although they lack a LRBHO (Last Round Bolt Hold Open). Yes I know Yugo mags have that feature but for what reason? Also AK-47/AKM mags are larger than STANAG mags. The 5.45x39mm magazine is more comperable in thickness but still a bit thicker. But good AK mags hide this, shitty AK mags might have shorter springs though.
I can't find a better magazine design than the AK magazine design, from a reliability and durabiltiy stand point. Massively overbuilt and almost unkillable unless you design them for range use like for example AC Unity does. (Zamak is the new Titanium and shitty plastic is the new Magpul formula.)
So with this one, and flipping the tables, the Soviets should be copied from!
That is if you want to go all out and overbuild a magazine. But is that really necessary? For a STANAG type mag, in my opinion, no. True, the STANAG magazine format has its design constraints but today the Magpul PMAG Gen 3 is more than sufficient. However you are designing or improving rock and locks? At least give them steel locking tabs.
What do you think about this topic?
es: (gunmagwarehouse. com, joesarmynavyonline. com, Magpul, Lancer Systems, ak-info. ru, Wikipedia )
(I have no control over the links from imgur. com, if any entity buys imgur and decides to reassign links in the future, they might get replaced with something irrelevant to the subject.)
Impressive-Carry1563@reddit
Reading your long article makes me question if you have used any of these magazines or if you read about them in a magazine
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Maybe you know a lot more than I do. So present me your issue with any point I wrote about.
Impressive-Carry1563@reddit
I think the other commenters have made more than enough points. I would wager it’s not a maybe with experience, as I am not writing ai articles.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
You see the issue is, you want to bring something else into the table instead of writing about your issue about any points of my article that you apparently have oh such problems of.
But I can play your game as well, just this time. The next time don't dodge that.
And indeed I GOT TONS of AI accusastions. And at first, well that brings you down because tons of research went into the subjects I wrote about. And days and sometimes weeks of writing adding everything bit by bit and then forming a post. (The PKM post took weeks the Kartech took 2 months.) I don't use and don't ever want to use AI. Those who actually take time and read my posts and are a bit enthusiastic about guns understood that. When they criticized me they criticized my writing, which I am VERY reluctant to change.
It DOES NOT make sense in my mind to write in huge connected parapgraphs out of differing parts of a gun!! At the same time, I know I HAVE to improve my English writing and gain more intelligence as I am VERY stupid.
Let me know if you want to read my long posts! But why not try and write about guns yourself? You can even use AI!
But start with NOT dodging and writing about the issues you had with my points.....I'll be waiting.
Impressive-Carry1563@reddit
My points were already made and I made my own. Polymer mags, particularly magpul are lighter and cheaper than steel alternatives, in the western world. They are extremely reliable in all conditions, as are steel ak mags but an end user can carry more of them, which along with costs is what matters to militaries and civilians. If English is not your primary language and you aren’t in the military of your home country you probably don’t have a lot of experience with firearms, generally speaking. I have shot the PKM. Have you? Have you carried 7-10 magazines for days at a time? Have you disassembled the magazines you talk about? If you have, then you have your opinion and are entitled to it.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Where are your points that had been already made? And adress exactly what issues you had with my points in the post?
I'm serious, what the hell are you talking about? You didn't even bother reading my post. Again this is the primary issue, peolpe don't give two fucks to read my post yet they still claim I'm AI.
Please! Don't go off the tracks!!! READ the post then criticize me or the topics I write about there.
But if you are trying to prove that you are a better man than I am? YOU ARE! Also you are twice my age. Cool!
Impressive-Carry1563@reddit
The points were that people already said that polymer mags were cheaper and lighter..your issue is you are arguing a point but have no practical knowledge of the point. Did you actually hold magpul ak mags? Or use them? U.S. palm AK mags? As seen by adoption and use the STANAG pattern mags are superior for the reasons mentioned.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
My face will melt.... And I will become one with space....Holy fucking shit.
Impressive-Carry1563@reddit
Or whatever, steel commie ak mags are cool, Bakelite is cool and so is polymer when well made-and there’s room for all
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Well there's room for all except people who are not you it seems....
Conserp@reddit
Thick reinforced plastic is the way in terms of weight, durability, stiffness, ergonomics etc.
But it is practically impossible to make good AR15 type magazine like that because the magwell was designed for a disposable aluminum crap magazine.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
I don't know why the downvotes. But yes, the STANAG mag has its dimensional constraints.
grumpykraut@reddit
If you're done with your excessive sermon, let me get in a word edgewise:
CHEAP
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Not necessarily light or cheap. No. It gets much more complicated than that even if you call this an excessive sermon. To me, the idiot this is a topic worth thinking about to that depth.
grumpykraut@reddit
From wha I know, injection molding is way more efficient than sheet metal stamping/pressing. Material cost is only a part of the equation. Especially since magazines have strongly moved from being "reuse-preferred" towards "disposable".
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Maybe giving my excessive sermon a shot is a good idea.
Not_an_alt_69_420@reddit
Can I add one?
LIGHT
mortalcrawad66@reddit
Saying why plastic, is like saying why rock? Plastic is such a general term, especially in the last twenty or so years. Additives and plastic composites have greatly increased the properties of plastic. In some cases where they can be used instead of metal.
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
I felt that will come and someone will imply that using the term plastic is wrong because it is a very generalized term. That is exactly why I used it. It is a very generalized term.
Salt-Wish5140@reddit
Less weight.
The aluminum mags are also thinner than the PMAGs. Easier to stack two next to each other in some double pouches.
Ionized-Dustpan@reddit
You use AI to write this?
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
No. It was indeed me who wrote it by myself given the knowledge I have. But I get that I use AI a LOT. And it felt bad at first if you put any sort of effort into writing, but now it is funny.
I will probably will still continue to get that I use AI from people.
Every time I segment it what people say is wrong segmentation it is AI or I'm just stupid and can't use long paragraphs. And true, I might indeed be stupid and unwilling to write long paragraphs if it is not about a single element or connected elements of a gun. If I did that it WOULD ABSOLUTELY ruin the readability. Maybe highlighting stuff might eleviate that?
The people who don't really read my posts where I used - instead of double enters to avoid connection between two segmetns (Double enters do not work, try it. Dear Reddit will unify your segments.). Some commenters will say "Ah you must be using AI ChatGPT". Now I use dots (.) this.
I tried ChatGPT for quick grammar checking my final post text when I first joined Reddit a year ago. It doesn't know much of Firearms lingo and butchered my text and indeed put those - symbols in it. But hey it might read like a book, but if I have to re-modify everything otherwise it is worth shit. What it made me realize is I should imrpove my grammar. And use Word instead of the Reddit window and proof read crazy, yet mistakes will be there. For example my PKM post, one of my longest post ever, were FULL of mistakes and I only idenfitied them on my repost this year. Good thing people didn't even bother scrolling down to notice the - symbols between large segments!
So I'm more of an idiot but not an AI user. But hey, believe what you will.
Leroy_Washington@reddit
MAC's video is out of date. Gen 3 AK PMAGs use a stainless steel rear tab.
SomeDudeNamedDavid@reddit
Their QC isn't that great, but Lancer Systems has the right idea. Their mags specifically have a few issues that they have yet to completely iron out, such as the occasional double-feed problem and ammunition rejecting themselves out of the mags if they happen to be dropped. That follower spring varies from magazine to magazine.
Once they get their QC in order, their mags will sell like hotcakes.
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