Zelensky arrived in the Netherlands, where he was presented with the Four Freedoms Award.
Posted by ArchitectMary@reddit | EndlessWar | View on Reddit | 32 comments
rondeuce40@reddit
What four freedoms are we talking about here?
Refusing to hold elections and remaining in power after your term expires
Banning the Russian language
Jailing/Assassinating opposition leaders and parties
Kidnapping people off the streets and forcing them into military service
ttystikk@reddit
EPIC! This is exactly the comment I was looking for!
Europe is full of bootlickers.
PajaroCora@reddit
You answered your own comment lol bad bot
Inevitable-Regret411@reddit
Postponing elections during a period of crisis isn't unprecedented. The United Kingdom did something similar during the second world war, and the democratic process resumed as normal afterwards.
rondeuce40@reddit
If Ukraine is in fact a democracy as they claim to be then the people of Ukraine should get to decide if the current leadership is representing them properly.
Bratech@reddit
That’s not how it works. Ukraine’s Constitution keeps officials in office until replacements are elected, and Ukrainian law bans elections while martial law is in force.
Inevitable-Regret411@reddit
I agree, but you also need to acknowledge that holding an election isn't always practical in wartime. If there was an election tomorrow a lot of the Ukrainian population wouldn't be represented either due to them being in territory occupied by Russia, displaced abroad, or otherwise unable to vote.
PajaroCora@reddit
Everything you said can be easily debunk, you just spilling Putin's propaganda points
ttystikk@reddit
Sorry, we deal in verifiable facts here. You'll have to take your lies elsewhere.
Nom_de_guerre_25@reddit
Yeah, those press gangs beating and abducting men on the streets of Ukraine are certainly evidence of what a "free country" Ukraine is.
As always in the west. "Freedom" truly means "the free flow of capital and freedom from the government having limits on private wealth accumulation". Any human freedoms are secondary if not totally ignored.
ArchitectMary@reddit (OP)
What "freedom" are they referring to? If men are kidnapped in the streets of Ukraine every day, and men of a certain age cannot leave the country, all of this is contrary to freedom.
Mackanpackan93@reddit
You understand what a draft is?
If the US was invaded there would be a draft too and people would be forced to sign up.
Also people aren't '' kidnapped '' off the streets, they're arrested if they refuse to sign up because it's mandatory.
Signing up also doesn't mean that you're going to the frontlines to fight most people in the military never even see action.
If people like you were in charge then the entire world would be run by people like Putin, because you're essentially saying that Ukraine should just give up and surrender.
By your logic only volunteers would've fought the Nazi's and the Nazi's would've won it's a very shallow and narrow-minded view on how the world works and very naive.
Also ofc you're reposting it from a pro Russia sub, funny how you have nothing to say about Russia taking advantage off of poor people and drafting people and jailing, torturing and raping people for speaking out against the war and criticizing the government.
Or drafting convicted rapists and murderers and sending them to occupy territory and into the meatgrinder and they behave exactly as you'd expect them to behave towards Ukrainian civilians in occupied territory.
It's always the concern trolling about Ukraine who is defending itself and having to make tough choices to defend itself.
It's always criticizing and fixating on the victim.
Spiritual_Bridge84@reddit
Facts. Despite the downvotes, make it no less true.
In this sub populated by russo-bots, probably even more an indication of truth.
Randy_Handy@reddit
Waaah, everyone critical of Ukraine is a Russian bot.
Just face it. You losers and this attitude is destroying Ukraine. Nobody there wants to fight, and they’re abducting people off the streets to fight an unwinnable war
Spiritual_Bridge84@reddit
Did i say “everyone”?
Methinks your comprehension needs tuning. Maybe English isn’t your first language “Randy”. (Or maybe you’re just an American that’d track also.)
Too bad Reddit doesn’t force country of origins VPNs aside. Remember when X for a brief time exposed all them there “Americans” with middle of the road good ol’ fashioned “American” names… as actually Indian or Russian? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
“Populated” is not the same as “fully populated” It means there’s a percentage “Randy.” Sounded good though!
And it doesn’t matter if you’re real or not, there’s enough fakery false identities here to keep pushing pro Putin propaganda jerkle circlin’—all in the name of “Really caring” for the Ukrainians.
Slava Ukraini!
EndlessWar-ModTeam@reddit
No ad hominem attacks, name calling or shouting people down as trolls, bots, or propagandists. Remember you're talking to a person. Your objective should be to change opinions -- not belittle or degrade people.
Randy_Handy@reddit
Damn I must’ve struck a nerve. You losers just can’t accept that your puppet state of the lamest empire in existence is getting its ass kicked by another pathetic bourgeois state.
What a weird way to say “I love Nazis” with your last statement. When Ukraine’s very own Azov Battalion’s logo is a literal wolfsangel, a known Nazi symbol.
LOW_SPEED_GENIUS@reddit
Honest question for ya, do you believe israel has a right to defend itself?
When the US, which has not one single time since the end of WWII entered a geopolitical conflict for any other reason than imperial self interest sends weapons to both Israel and Ukraine in the same spending bills, does that strike you as odd in any way? They're both sending these countries weapons to defend themselves right? That's what they say, but if I was a gamblin' man I reckon you'd say you believe one but not the other right? Israel is very obviously waging a genocidal campaign on the Palestinian population while also waging a genocidal expansionist campaign on neighboring countries, when the US says they are acting in self defense you know immediately that is straight up bullshit, but you unquestioningly believe the US is sending Ukraine weapons in self defense out of its deep respect for human rights and democracy, to help Ukraine defend its sovereignty right?
What would the US have to gain by doing that? I guess you could say "keeping Ukraine out of Russia's hands" right? But prior to 2014 Russia didn't ever make any attempt at Ukraine, in fact they had a relatively mutually beneficial relationship where Ukraine got massive discounts on gas in exchange for sharing that naval base in Sevastopol. Even in the lead up to the events of February 2014, Russia's last ditch effort was to offer Ukraine a loan at rates so far below market rates Russia was willing to loan at a loss to maintain the same relationship they had. A relationship that western media and analysts often liked to frame as "Ukraine is addicted to cheap Russian gas". So why did the US totally overhaul Ukrainian intelligence into a "new mossad" in 2014? Why was John McCain, a freedom and democracy loving liberal who would never have a hard right wing agenda, on the ground supporting what many would end up calling a regime change that saw massive structural adjustments and austerity brought into Ukraine almost immediately after it happened and John McCain's preferred side got into power?
We have people in the current US regime openly admitting the Iranian protests from a few months ago were not only intentionally started via US sanction policy but that the US and Israel were imbedded in and sending weapons to the protesters, many people have accused the US of doing similar things all over the world, a lot of evidence exists to support that, but you believe that is 100% impossible in Ukraine, that in this one instance the US did not do what it always does?
I'm just trying to understand here, did you support Trump escalating the US's arming of Ukraine in 2017 to full shipments of offensive weapons instead of the Obama policy of only openly shipping "non lethal" military gear while allowing direct private shipping of weapons on the DL? Even western media since at least 2023 has been open about the amount of open and covert military build up of Ukraine, their goal of using Ukraine to wage war on Russia, but where you see through the bullshit with israel and Iran you're still stuck on this one. I am genuinely curious why?
EndlessWar-ModTeam@reddit
No trolling messages. Stay on topic.
LOW_SPEED_GENIUS@reddit
Funny enough it's you resorting to MAGA style thinking here, let me show you how you got tricked by right wing propaganda into supporting the death of Ukrainians under the guise of "fighting for their sovereignty"
if not outright racist it's astoundingly chauvinistic to both assume Ukrainians have some sort of hive mind and are all of the near same opinion while at the same time insisting you know their current conditions better than them. There is no shortage of evidence from a plethora of western sources showing that this war has become incredibly unpopular and incredibly deadly with basically no viable path to victory however any attempt to negotiate a ceasefire has been blocked by US and other western interests with Zelensky playing the usual role of right wing comprador puppet to US imperial interests.
We're all well aware MAGA is renowned for their incredible ignorance of history and geopolitical phenomenon. Here too you mirror them by somehow being unaware of the US's leading role in regime change and the near identical patterns US regime change forces on the nations they take over. Economic privatization, enforced austerity, destruction of labor rights, destruction of left wing groups, media, leaders, labor organizers and organizations, forcing massive amounts of IMF debt, restructuring economies for capital to purchase public assets at bargain barrel prices while suppressing labor rights so capital has access to the lowest possible labor costs. All of which we've seen enacted in Ukraine with many of these happening almost immediately after the events of February 2014 in which an unelected interim prime minister was installed in a common US regime change operation widely known as a 'color revolution'.
Ignoring material reality for comforting ideals or "vibes based" analysis of the world are also hallmarks of MAGA if I'm not mistaken. Especially their uncritical acceptance of narratives propagated by wealthy interests that appeal far more to their emotions and feeling as opposed to more rational opinions and analysis based on actual evidence, historical precedent etc. The notion of a plucky underdog fighting a larger brutish and objectively evil attacker is certainly a narrative that pulls at the heartstrings, a classic romantic type of tale that has captivated humanity for millennia and without looking too much under the surface of this conflict it is incredibly easy to conclude that's exactly what we are seeing here, right? Well, unfortunately a peek beneath the surface reveals something more complicated and not nearly as clear cut.
Following the US's intentional destruction of Ukrainian sovereignty we see almost immediately in 2014 the CIA wholly taking over and reshaping Ukrainian intelligence into explicitly a weapon aimed at Russia. A "new mossad" a CIA operative called it as the Washington Post reported in 2023 (whoops woulda been nice to know that before the war started I guess, but it would have ruined the narrative). You're right Ukraine and its people are the victims here, but the original "attacker" was the US, which won decisively with very little actual fighting if we ignore the civil war that erupted in the wake of the relatively peaceful coup (again ignoring those labor organizers burnt to death and other relatively small amounts of violence). The US then went on to reshape Ukraine into the US's own "forward operating base" to stage an attack on Russia. During the Obama years the US was far more clandestine, starting with the above mentioned then-secret intelligence rehaul, a then-secret training program, and only shipping offensive weaponry via direct private sales instead of the more open federal programs which were explicitly for defensive equipment. Of course, with MAGA's unabashed love of brutality and carnage the first trump admin authorized the open shipping of offensive military capabilities to Ukraine in 2017 (which of course led to one of the dumbest attempts at a quid-pro-quo extortion later on in 2019 where trump tried to withhold arms unless supplied with info on Biden that of course resulted in nothing more than a slight delay in shipping missiles to Ukraine and being in general incredibly embarrassing overall for trump, if he was capable of feeling embarrassment that is).
Anyway, after all this blatant open and covert military build up, with a hot proxy war waging since 2014 under the guise of a civil war in the east with the US supplying intelligence, training and obscured private shipments of weapons to one side and Russia doing the same to the other it still took 8 years before Russia made a decisive escalatory move by entering the conflict openly (though their proxy involvement with the separatists was not nearly as well hidden as the US's on the other side) and yet still, after so much more info has come out, after so many US officials have openly stated how strategically ideal it is they are able to engage and over extend Russia without risking US lives (they do not care about Ukrainian lives, they have made abundantly clear at this point) after all the historical precedent of US backed regime change and US instigated proxy wars, hell with the US sending Ukraine and Israel weapons in the same bills, with Zelensky saying Ukraine is going to be a "Big Israel", with all the evidence of US and its allies interfering in and stopping peace deals ensuring the conflict continues with every year the viable paths to victory and potential benefits to Ukraine vanishing more and more before our eyes while the benefits to the US becoming clearer and clearer (separating the EU from cheap Russian gas allowing the US to sell more expensive gas to the EU (record production and record profits for US gas companies), bogging down Russia on its doorstep so other US global interference can continue with less a threat from Russia, especially in Africa and west Asia, the full privatization of Ukraine the US has wanted since the 90's, it's clear Ukraine is not winning here, but the US and wealthy US connected corporations sure are.
I'm certainly no fan of Russia's current largely socially conservative and nationalistic domestic politics and policies, which we both know is in part the reason so many MAGA types err on the side of Russia in this conflict, though I suspect the usual contrarian "well the democrats are pro-Ukraine so we have to be pro-Russia" is also shouldering some of the blame as well. The thing is you don't even have to "support" Russia, you can just support peace. That's what I would like to see, less deaths, less destruction, less families and bodies ripped apart. "But Russia could stop anytime, after all they started this" is the usual refrain, but as you can see this is not anywhere near the one-sided situation the prevailing narrative paints it as. Even looking at Russia-Ukraine relations prior to 2014 paints a wholly different picture than the "Russian bully" story, with Russia and Ukraine having largely a mutually beneficial relationship where Ukraine, having almost all the pipelines that allow Russian gas to access European markets, Russia had been giving Ukraine massive discounts on their own gas, the ability to collect transfer fees on that flow of gas to the EU and the only cost to Ukraine was the longstanding requirement to share a naval base in Crimea (which is why the annexation of Crimea happened almost immediately in 2014, the previous US attempt at intervening in Ukraine's sovereignty was open about its desire to deprive Russia of an important naval asset, and I don't think I have to tell you that no matter how "legally" something like that is done, a hostile state taking a military asset from a geopolitical rival is of course a non-starter, especially right after a hostile takeover). The FPRI piece Bond of War does a good job illustrating pre-2014 Russian-Ukraine relations as well as the many many non violent and legal steps Russia took to attempt to resolve this conflict, one of which involved the IMF breaking its own rules to force Ukraine into a debt trap while also showing that while Russia did have considerable economic leverage it never once resorted to using that. Which of course makes this all the more tragic in how absolutely avoidable this was with the US backed side being the nearly sole party responsible for forcing this situation to exist.
Anyway, I do hope you take the chance to differentiate yourself from MAGA behavior and possibly consider this information and have it expand your world view instead of plugging your ears and accusing me of being paid off by ~~Soros~~ Putin and insisting your currently held beliefs couldn't possibly be wrong. That is of course your choice to make. At the very least if you do choose that rout perhaps other people less inclined towards MAGA thinking could read this and find some benefit. My apologies for this getting longer than I intended, but sometimes getting to the bottom of more complicated geopolitical phenomena requires a bit more reading and/or writing.
https://www.fpri.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/rpe-5-hess-final-.pdf
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/zelenskyy-wants-ukraine-to-be-a-big-israel-heres-a-road-map/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-intelligence-russia-war.html
https://chambers.com/articles/ukraine-relaunches-privatization-future-belongs-to-the-brave
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/ukraine-labour-law-wrecks-workers-rights/
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2014/04/07/300236259/ukraines-winter-of-discontent-gives-way-to-spring-of-austerity
ArchitectMary@reddit (OP)
Ukrainians no longer want to continue fighting; Ukraine has already lost. All Zelensky does is kidnap people to stay in power.
AlexanderShulgin@reddit
A third of Ukraine's population has fled from the country and is not coming back. They have forced the majority of their under-40 male population into a meatgrinder. And for what? They are going to end up getting less than they would have gotten if they hadn't let Boris Johnson torpedo the only good peace deal this war seen.
Do you understand the gravity of this?
You don't get to claim to be anti-war if there are, in fact, wars you would like to see go on endlessly.
Remindme! 3 years
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IRGROUP300@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/3pKQgjvqZr
I wonder why even the babushkas try and get in the way of the TCC in pursuit. Ukraine had the largest Army in Europe In February 2022
Why do we have this current situation? Especially with the 75:1 ratio of UA to RF casualties.
You’re sounding off marching orders, not living in reality
StableGeniusCovfefe@reddit
No FIFA award?
Cuddlybois@reddit
God half this sub is genuine and half is deepthroating Russian cock
Free_Journalist1152@reddit
Says the femboy slut 😄
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LOW_SPEED_GENIUS@reddit
Wanting Ukrainian people to live instead of dying to advance the US's geopolitical interests while western capital buys out their land from beneath their feet for pennies on the dollar is "deepthroating russian cock" now.
I'm sorry to say you've fallen for one of the most effective right wing propaganda campaigns I've seen in my lifetime. The US took over Ukraine, the CIA turned Ukrainian intellegence into a "new mossad" with the sole purpose of waging a shadow war against Russia, Ukrainian people are being impoverished, labor rights cut, all left wing opposition has been outlawed with many people being arrested or even killed, labor rights gutted, austerity measures enacted, public assets privatized and looted by foreign actors, etc etc - literally the exact playbook the US has forced on almost every country it has taken over in modern history and somehow people still believe to this day that bringing up the fact this horrific fucked up situation is entirely the fault of the US is somehow "russian propaganda" when so many western sources, politicians etc have all come out and said it at this point. It's MAGA level delusion to continue calling for more dead Ukrainians.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/zelenskyy-wants-ukraine-to-be-a-big-israel-heres-a-road-map/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/23/ukraine-cia-shadow-war-russia/
https://chambers.com/articles/ukraine-relaunches-privatization-future-belongs-to-the-brave
kronstadt-sailor@reddit
christ, every time you think this dog-&-pony show must be completely played out....
gospel-inexactness@reddit
Wtf is this kremlin shit?!
randomelgen@reddit
He looks disappointed seems because he did not get money on his way back.