Why aren't winglets employed universally everywhere?
Posted by BugHistorical3@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 26 comments
So far in my PPL theory, the only times the winglets are mentioned is how they reduce induced drag. Not much else is really talked about. I know most modern airliners have winglets, but I noticed the B767 didn't have that and it just made me wonder why all planes (GA included) don't implement it? Would it make no sense for example to have them on a Cessna 172?
Are there any significant cons for a manufacturer to just omit them?
vtjohnhurt@reddit
I like the winglets on my glider because they stabilize steep turns in turbulent thermals, so I induce less drag with fewer aileron inputs. The glider flies fine with my hand off the stick and that makes it easier to eat a sandwich.
120SR@reddit
Unpressurized piston aircraft fly low in the thick atmosphere and often on the front side of the drag curve where induced drag is nil and winglets wouldn’t create any gain
daygloviking@reddit
You only get zero induced drag if you’re not generating any lift.
Drunkenaviator@reddit
There's a lot of good detailed answers on here, but the ELI5 answer is they're heavy and expensive. Unless the fuel burn savings makes up for those penalties, they don't make sense. (Which is why the airlines paid to put them on 767-300s, but not CRJ-200s)
Oregon-Pilot@reddit
those winglet-less CRJs are sick!
:)
Drunkenaviator@reddit
All of those CRJs make me sick.
MikeOfAllPeople@reddit
The simple answer is they got popular but some further research showed that they improve efficiency pretty much the same amount as an increase in regular horizontal wing area would do. They do have two other advantages though. Because they are vertical they lower the weight at the tip, which means less force on the wing as slower speed. So you can add a winglet with less need to worry about flex on the wing compared to increased horizontal span.
Since they also reduce the wingspan that means they can fit in tighter spaces. This is a bigger deal on the largest planes, as fees are based on plane size.
But for most designs the simplest solution is just make the wing longer in the first place.
TheOldBeef@reddit
Adding a winglet is similar to simply extending the wingspan, they don’t magically prevent wingtip vortices as is erroneously taught in many flight schools.
LounBiker@reddit
Somebody is (allegedly) making 172 winglets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cessna/comments/1s8yizs/cessna_172_182_performance_optimized_winglets/
But they didn't say how much they'll cost (likely $$$) or what the benefit will be.
The economics probably won't add up, and that's why nobody has really done it before.
setthrustpositive@reddit
Cessna experimented with turned up winglets in the late 60s. Market research said that people wouldn't buy it.
Obvious_Pumpkin_4821@reddit
I've had winglets described to me by the Aero professionals I work with as an effective increase in aspect ratio and a counterbalance to the bending of the wing. Once you have them they become weight neutral fairings for antennae and other sensors
Flyward_Aerospace@reddit
The cost-benefit math just doesn't work the same for every aircraft. Winglets really shine on long-haul routes where you're burning fuel for hours, but on shorter regional hops the added weight and structural complexity can eat into the efficiency gains. Retrofitting is also expensive enough that airlines usually only add them during major maintenance cycles rather than as a standalone mod. Not every airframe has the structural margins for it either without significant redesign.
GrabtharsHumber@reddit
I had a retired NASA aero engineer design winglets for my aircraft. The combination of profile and twist distribution is non-trivial. It's a lot easier to subtract overall performance than add it.
Tupolev144@reddit
Winglets reduce induced drag, but they increase form drag, skin friction drag, weight, engineering complexity, and a whole host of other things.
Winglets are an optimization for a specific flight regime. If your typical flight is spent at high payload long-haul cruise, you can absolutely save some money. If your typical flight is bouncing around the pattern doing flight training, you’re probably worse off, since you’re paying all the penalties of carrying the winglets around, but not operating in their optimized environment.
You mention the 767 - the 757/767 do have an aftermarket winglet retrofit program from APB. Since the winglets change the lift distribution on the wing, the retrofit is much more involved than just slapping a new tip on; it’s a full wing structure upgrade, including installation of new wing stringers and other reinforcement. It was a big deal to install, and it’s also causing issues down the line, as some of the winglet affected structure is being found with premature cracking, which is subject to several Airworthiness Directives. I’m sure there are some operators who would rather just have the added fuel burn, to avoid all the maintenance and repair burden.
CAVU1331@reddit
Then there are other absurdities like the Tamarack winglets and the added TACs. After a couple years with those I think they saved a gallon of fuel.
LearningDumbThings@reddit
This is a great answer.
EliteEthos@reddit
Look at the wing shape. When you have swept wing designs, you introduce spanwise flow. The flow can help be controlled at the wingtips via winglets.
Spanwise flow isn’t really an issue with the straight wings of a Cessna 150… but straight wings aren’t super fast.
Ultimately, winglets CAN be beneficial across a fleet but depending on the aircraft may beneficial for an individual given the engineering and development cost.
BeeDubba@reddit
I imagine it's for two reasons
Winglets are a small efficiency gain (my quick Google search shows 2-5%). Most GA planes are old designs and terribly inefficient. The small improvement isn't worth the weight and cost penalty when your time spent at high-speed cruise is very small.
If you look at Mooneys, which are used much more commonly for high-speed long-distance flight, there are all kinds of fuel efficiency improvements available. For your brick of a 172 that's mostly beating up the pattern, not worth it.
Avaricio@reddit
Winglets are mainly useful when you want that extra few % efficiency but can't extend the wing for structural or infrastructure reasons like the size of your manufacturing facility or an existing gate. This is mostly beneficial for large aircraft that spend a long time cruising.
5% savings of 40,000lb in a 737 is 2,000lb of fuel, which is a whole extra ton you get to spend on payload (emphasis on pay) or just reducing your overall cost per trip. 5% on 335lb in a Cessna is 17lb, which is not much extra utility per trip given the cost it would add. The Cessna also spends comparatively less time cruising, so it's not actually 5% savings. Winglets are usually much less than 5% improvement too.
Swimming_Way_7372@reddit
Winglets are so effective that you can see in the scimitar variants of API designs, the winglets have winglets. See the 737s and 757s with scimitars.
Atlanta_Mane@reddit
Go into to the maintenance shop and ask how much the cost of an inspection is. Then ask how much new engine is. Any of the airplane owners are still probably paying off the initial cost of the airplane and preparing to replace the engine when it croaks, in addition to paying for annual inspections, not to mention miscellaneous repairs.
They are probably overjoyed that it is still safe and legal to fly.
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Simply put: the certification and installation costs outweigh the fuel savings in many applications.
GrownHapaKid@reddit
The math is hard.
sniper4273@reddit
FWIW, there are winglet retrofits for the 767. And the 767-400 has raked wingtips which broadly serve the same purpose.
It's just winglet tech wasn't as well known when the 767 was originally designed.
As for GA, well the Cessnas/Pipers are literally designs from the 50s. Notice that newer GA designs like Diamonds have them. And Cirrus has some tiny ones.
fireandlifeincarnate@reddit
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
So far in my PPL theory, the only times the winglets are mentioned is how they reduce induced drag. Not much else is really talked about. I know most modern airliners have winglets, but I noticed the B767 didn't have that and it just made me wonder why all planes (GA included) don't implement it? Would it make no sense for example to have them on a Cessna 172?
Are there any significant cons for a manufacturer to just omit them?
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