Tng high ground
Posted by happydude7422@reddit | TNG | View on Reddit | 128 comments
One of the best episodes in trek on political commentary
Which side do you think was right? Datas pov or Picard's pov where he doesn't believe in diplomacy through the barrel of a gun?
Onedoesnotsimplyfuck@reddit
“Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.”
Mao Zedong
Why should your oppressors listen to you if you can’t harm them back?
IStoneI42@reddit
terrorism isnt usually targeting the leaders or military infrastructure of their opponents.
its usually targeting random civilians to spread fear among the population. thats literally where the word comes from and also why russia is considered a terrorist state. basically if they dont get what they want with regular military actions, they start bombing the civilian population and civilian infrastructure like heat and power during really cold winter days to try and demoralize them.
when hamas attacked israel, they didnt target their military. they hit a festival and killed random regular people.
the houthi attacked random commercial cargo ships etc.
Makasi_Motema@reddit
Zionists: “the people living in a concentration camp are the oppressors, actually”
Onedoesnotsimplyfuck@reddit
Crazy racist statement. Hamas did attack military targets. The houthis were enacting a legal (by international law) blockade. Calling this savagery is just othering them and presenting yourself as more civilized.
IStoneI42@reddit
what exactly about this is racism? im talking about a political/terrorist organization, not an ethnical group of people.
explain.
Onedoesnotsimplyfuck@reddit
You mention Hamas terrorist attack against civilians while repeating debunked atrocity propaganda. They did target military posts primarily while also killing innocent civilians. You make it seem like they exclusively targeted civilians in the most barbaric way possible while giving zero mentions to Israel’s genocide of the Palestinians or their countless terroristic attacks on the people of Gaza long before Hamas attacks on October 07.
The houthis did not randomly attack any cargo ships. They implemented a blockade in response to the genocide which they announced beforehand and based on international law.
We’ve called indigenous people savages while calling ourselves civilized to excuse away any mistreatment we’ve imposed on them for ages now. And you happen to use that term after talking about one Arab group that wasn’t even doing anything illegal and another that doesn’t resist the way they should by only targeting military targets.
IStoneI42@reddit
they attacked the festival. they live streamed themselves doing it aswell as attacking families in their homes. just because they also hit military doesnt mean they didnt attack those civilians to spread fear and chaos. there was nothing debunked about this.
the houthi attacks on commercial ships was not a legal blockade. they violated international law. the UN security council have officially condemned these actions.
im not calling indigenous people savages. im calling terrorist organizations like hamas or states like russia savages because they employ savage brutality on innocent people to enforce their political goals.
were not talking about mistakes or accidentally collateral damage. were talking about indiscriminate targeting.
Onedoesnotsimplyfuck@reddit
Never said Hamas didn’t kill civilians. In your original message you made it seem like they only targeted civilians when in fact they went after military targets as well. I’m not condoning it but I am saying we should stick with the entire truth. Resistance against occupation is legal and just. Killing civilians isn’t. Again no mentions of Israel or its 80 occupation
ApproximateOracle@reddit
Everything comes down to leverage ultimately—not the validity, truthfulness, or moral imperative of the issue at hand.
Nobody of power will listen to you if you can’t place them in a worse bind and get them to understand that.
There are many ways to achieve this without violence, but there can’t be any question that violence is a tool to leverage against the power and wealthy—and when they clamp down on peaceful forms of leverage to the point of making them functionally irrelevant, they guarantee violence as the final resort.
Amazing-Gazelle-7735@reddit
To paraphrase a rather good webcomic, power=power. The source of the power is irrelevant.
Power has many sources, and most boil down to the ability to commit violence (or get others to do violence on your behalf), but not all. Cults of personality are formed via charisma, sometimes movements are formed by martyrdom in the face of violence instead of by committing violence, etc.
DialecticalDeathDryv@reddit
You're making a great point so I don't want to this to sound critical. More a bit of an extension of what you're saying.
The method of power isn't really irrelevant. In political science we divide power into three types, listed in order of increasing potency (it's baked into the theory for better or worse).
The first is influential power (like you said about charisma).
The second is authority (you might not support the elected officials in your country, but you respect the legitimacy of the system enough to continue to follow the law, even if you don't support who's in power. You still respect the legitimacy of the office (or maybe you don't...)).
The final is coercive power and it's the most potent.
You're bang on that we shouldn't reduce power to just violence, there are other forms and they're very insidious if you don't understand them. It's just relevant to use these categorizations, because then you can strategies against each type of power individually. Guns aren't as effective for breaking people out of the pull of a charismatic leader. They are however, necessary for resisting coercion.
But your point is exactly right. We need to be concerned about multiple forms of power. Sounds scary and overly complex, but it actually brings things into strategic view very cleanly which is super useful.
ijfp_2013@reddit
Weber and Arendt iirc?
DialecticalDeathDryv@reddit
I'm not sure if there are specific thinkers to tie it to actually. It may have just been something my first poli sci prof said that has stuck with me.
For Weber, violence and power are sort of different. His three types of power look at how coercion is legitimized in institutions. So for him it's more "How is violence legitimized?"
He does separate those legitimizing forces into three separate categories and they're basically the same as the ones I used, but instead of coercion as a form of power he's focused on how law, charisma, and authority legitimize the use of violence.
For Arendt power is actually outside of violence. For her power is collective action, and violence can actually destroy that (and thus destroy some instantiations of power). For her, the more coercion you need, the less power you actually have (but based on our lense we could say she's just overemphasizing charismatic power).
Both are super relevant, but I think all are sort of critiquing power and violence whereas here, we're trying to formalize how power is exercised in a meaningful way that may expand beyond coercion. Both thinkers are great and both have influenced that massively (and rightfully so).
But I think here we're trying to broaden the lenses. Like yes coercion is always at the core of political power, but how come it seems like cult leaders can exploit people without putting a gun to their head? How come authoritative positions, are so ripe for exploitation, even if not explicitly backed by coercion?
It's hard to discuss without getting into very triggering examples though.
We may find that coercion is operative in all these cases, but I'm not so sure.
I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I actually think all of these positions matter. Mao saying politics is sourced out of the barrel of a gun, Arendt pointing to power really only being about collective action, Weber focused largely on legitimacy, all of it, super productive for uncovering how we relate to power.
That's why I really like the lense my prof provided. It allows us to track all of this at once. None of them really have to be wrong, you can just see how they're emphasizing the relations between coercion, charisma, and authority differently.
ser_poops@reddit
“In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bid him slay the other two. ‘Do it,’ says the king, ‘for I am your lawful ruler.’ ‘Do it,’ says the priest, ‘for I command you in the names of the gods.’ ‘Do it,’ says the rich man, ‘and all this gold shall be yours.’ So tell me — who lives and who dies?”
this is a riddle posed by varys the spymaster for king joffery to tyrion lannister, the hand of the same king. varys explains that the men who die do so because of the notion of perceived power of the sellsword. if the sellsword is religious, the priest will live, etc. i think this riddle perfectly encapsulates the themes in a song of ice and fire, it’s showing that the real power is in the hands of the sellsword. my personal take is that the sellsword represents the masses, that the little guy does hold power in being the collective. when the sellswords/masses beliefs change, that power is wrested from the sellsword and placed into the three “powerful” men’s hands.
power absolutely flows through the barrel of a gun, and at least here in america we would have much power as a collective, but the different held beliefs of capitalism and religion (for the most part, there are many many different things that hold sway over many minds) has wrested that power away and to the oligarchy.
MindlessVariety8311@reddit
China is capitalist
Edward_Zachary@reddit
China's constitution:
LeatherPatch@reddit
How is that relevant?
MindlessVariety8311@reddit
Well it seems Mao's strategy failed.
Hedgehog_Capable@reddit
notice that his statement said nothing about the content of that political power. political violence ended capitalism in China, and political violence brought it back.
MindlessVariety8311@reddit
Really? How did violence bring it back?
I'm banned from all the socialist subreddits for pointing out that China is capitalist, so it is really a reflex at this point. I tend to point it out whenever possible.
Hedgehog_Capable@reddit
China pretty viciously puts down internal Maoist organizing, whether that's alternate trade unions or student groups, and it doesn't tend to have kind treatment for other independent labor groups either. The state now uses its monopoly on violence largely for the capitalists' benefit, while it used to primarily target the capitalists.
It's essentially social democracy with less focus on the individual. Not communism, very plainly. Not socialism arguably.
evocativename@reddit
Mao was more a Leninist than a communist.
When you pick a strategy that doesn't even seriously attempt to achieve your alleged goal, it raises questions about what your goal actually was.
CharacterMaybe7950@reddit
r/im14andthisisdeep
You don’t kill random children to get your view heard. You kill children because you’re psychotic. Like Mao.
Old_Celebration_5950@reddit
Ro Laren from helm position: Hell yeah
DJWGibson@reddit
Terrorism is like a 3yo having a temper tantrum: it's great for getting a lot of attention quickly but it's not great for actually getting what you want.
Terrorism can work. It can also fail horribly. It can backfire and make things worse. It can remove sympathy for your cause and turn people against you.
Natural_Comparison21@reddit
Depends on what the acts are and who’s generally being targeted. Military/government targets? People gonna be more sympathetic or netural. Blowing up a children’s play ground? Not so much.
DJWGibson@reddit
So you were okay with the Pentagon being targetted during 9/11?
Natural_Comparison21@reddit
If only the Pentagon was targeted durning 9/11 it would not be considered nearly as bad a tradgey as it was. I’ll be it hinaxking a plane with innocent civilians on it is pretty fucked up regardless.
PrincessPlusUltra@reddit
What if the oppressor blew up thirty playgrounds already but no one cared
Longjumping_Roll_342@reddit
Still doesnt make civillian Targets Moral nor effektive. Just makes the palestinians loose theiroral highground.....that was what you we're alluding to right...
Easter_Eyeland_Fed@reddit
Yeah except Palestinians never blew up playgrounds, schools, hospitals, etc
sting_12345@reddit
They certainly stash guns and fighters in schools and hospitals. This is a fact. Choose to ignore it and you show your real lack of intelligence.
Easter_Eyeland_Fed@reddit
I’m choosing to ignore you because you lack either the intelligence or good faith to differentiate between what I was responding to and your bullshit
MrDialectical@reddit
LOL it is not a fact. You are just regurgitating Zio talking points.
PrincessPlusUltra@reddit
I wasn’t alluding to anything
rzelln@reddit
The counter-argument is that when a powerful occupier is oppressing a population, options for winning liberty through discourse are usually eliminated, and protest is often punished. Options for fair fights don't exist, or else you wouldn't have been occupied in the first place.
So the options that remain are:
Accept oppression.
Try to integrate so the occupiers gradually see you as one of them and stop oppressing you.
Fight back asymmetrically, to make the oppressors feel like the cost of occupation is higher than whatever benefit they derive.
And if you pick option 3, it can be a genuine question whether you get better success by targeting only military and wealth-extracting targets, or by targeting civilians, i.e., 'terrorism.'
Terrorism hopes to provoke the civilians into demanding their government stops the occupation in order to prevent them from facing more risk.
It usually fails outright in the short term, provoking greater backlash and a tightening of punishments. But over time, in some conflicts terrorism has contributed to convincing the occupiers to leave -- the USSR in Afghanistan and the US in Iraq, arguably -- though in both cases, the terrorism was funded by outside sources, who kept the terror going despite the occupiers cracking down on the locals.
(Plus, it helped that in the US at least, a good portion of the population was opposed to the Iraq invasion from the start, and control of the country shifted, and under Obama there were efforts to lessen the US's interests there.)
It's all messy. I think the main takeaway really oughta be, "Um, don't be a fucking occupier. Respect people's autonomy. Stop trying to steal the wealth and land of others."
But if your country is going to do that, you'd better work damned hard to make the people you're occupying see you as allies, not oppressors, or else people are going to try to fight for whatever form of liberty they care about.
DJWGibson@reddit
Except the US were in Iraq because of terrorism.
Would you condone violence then from the Scottish against the English? Native Americans against the occupying European forces?
Or domestic terrorism. The right has taken over national politics in the USA and is opressing people. Should people on the left commit acts of violence against the police, ICE, and other military targets?
rzelln@reddit
Condoning something is different from understanding the reasons it happens.
I don't condone my house burning down, but I understand that if I leave gasoline and a space heater next to a bunch of linen, the fire might happen. So I should probably not do that.
I don't condone killing civilians, but I understand that if I invade a country and try to extract its wealth, the locals might start killing my civilians. So I should probably not do that.
But ultimately, it comes down to how much injustice people are willing to tolerate before they abandon their principles for the sake of protecting those they care about. 'Riots are the language of the unheard,' it is said, because if those in power refuse to address the genuine, reasonable concerns of a mass of people, folks will escalate.
Man, I recall time and again in 2020, debates with conservatives and centrists who were SOOOOO upset about the vandalism and occasional outbursts of violence at the George Floyd protests.
And when I said, "Well you know, if you think vandalism and violence is bad, you could stop it pretty quickly by, like, enacting the reforms that protesters are asking for: having more accountability for police who use excessive force, and investing more in non-police groups that can help people in crisis, instead of rushing to put people in jails and prisons," wouldn't you know it? None of them thought that was a reasonable thing.
There's a boot on people's necks, and so many people think that is Right, Normal, and Proper that they'd rather have riots happen than just fucking remove the boot.
SergenteA@reddit
Terrorism works at destabilising the target. And that's it.
Sometimes, it is enough to set the target on a self-destroying spiral. In a way, Osama did do just that.
Other times, the target resists and destroys the terrorists before too much damage can be done.
It is also important to define what is terrorism. Do assassinations of powerful officials count?
Russian Anarchists set in motion the rise of Nicholas II, destroying the Tsars. Italian Anarchists killed Umberto II in response to him ordering to shoot at striking workers, thereby obtaining the legalisation of socialism and worker unions.
cRaZyDaVe23@reddit
Not if it's pulling billionares out of their houses and well... "to shreds you say..." like the end of the gilded age.
DJWGibson@reddit
Except said terrorism solved things for (checks notes) less than a century. Possibly as little as 50 years. And also included a couple world wars and a period known as the "Great Depression."
Simmilarly, how did that work during the French Revolution?
Oh yes, far more poor people killed than rich. An era known as the Reign of Terror. And the eventual rise of a strong man military dictator.
Regular_Jim081@reddit
The US been tearing itself apart, growing more and more tribalist since 2001?
DJWGibson@reddit
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said...
MrDialectical@reddit
Terrorism is just a word that the group in charge uses to describe the people seeking change. It is overused. Violence against innocent civilians should always be condemned, but I laugh when I hear about resistance to occupying armies called “terrorism” because it makes the word meaningless.
Lord-Curriculum@reddit
Sums it up about right. It's an endless cycle. Oppression begets terrorism. Terrorism is used as an excuse for... Then begetting more oppression. Then more terrorism until... Chicken and an egg. War... War never changes.
TkachukNorris@reddit
Wasn’t this episode banned in the UK?
Liveranonions@reddit
It was not aired in the UK or Ireland for several years due to dialogue saying the IRA would be successful in bringing about a united Ireland through terrorism. Once the Good Friday Agreement was in place and the conflict ended, it aired like any other episode in reruns.
Unfortunately, a lot of Americans think they're Irish and supported the IRA despite having little to no understanding of the situation.
ajb901@reddit
What's the rationale for the continued existence of Northern Ireland beyond "We won it through conquest fair and square. It's ours."
It seems pretty obvious to the casual observer that the entire island of Ireland is in fact "Ireland" and should be called Ireland because it belongs to Ireland.
TheDickheadNextDoor@reddit
A lot of people there want to stay part of Britain
_cjplusplus_@reddit
Take a look at the comments on this post. This is still the case unfortunately
bridgeburner84@reddit
The IRA were cunts. The British Army were cunts. There was a lot of cuntery going around.
_cjplusplus_@reddit
Couldn’t agree more. I just wish more people understood this
Empty_Expressionless@reddit
What if I think I'm Scottish and have intensively researched the subject, can I have an opinion then?
nein_va@reddit
Surely it shouldn't take that much research to know if you're Scottish
Luppercus@reddit
You'll be like Worf trying to be a Klingon
larrydavidballsack@reddit
lmfaoooooooooooo
_cjplusplus_@reddit
> Unfortunately, a lot of Americans think they're Irish and supported the IRA despite having little to no understanding of the situation.
Just take a look at the comments in this post. This is still the case unfortunately
_cjplusplus_@reddit
Correct. This banned “fact” keeps getting mentioned and it’s wrong
Randomman4747@reddit
Up until around September 2001 I believe when suddenly terrorism wasn't so good anymore.
Can't imagine why.
moktira@reddit
It didn't explicitly mention the IRA though, Data mentions terrorism as an effective means historically in political change. Then a few sentences later gives three examples and the second was "the reunification of Ireland in 2024". The implication is there but not sure Americans would celebrate the IRA because of this or otherwise. The movie Patriot Games implies otherwise as, despite a lot of American people's claims of ties to Ireland, they also quite like England and generally don't like terrorism.
moparmajba@reddit
I believe so, due to IRA things (not trying to minimize, but that’s about the scope of my world knowledge)
OhNoIBoffedIt@reddit
Yeah, Data mentions the Irish Unification of 2024, which was more than a little controversial while the IRA was blowing shit up to try and unify Ireland 😅
ShittyDriver902@reddit
Don’t forget about the Brit’s shooting civilians to try and stop it
OhNoIBoffedIt@reddit
Sorry, to be clear, I'm not picking sides. I'm just stating why the Brits censored it. I have a lot of strong opinions about English colonialism in general, I think Ireland should be unified, but then I'm just some random American who doesn't live in any of the affected areas.
ShittyDriver902@reddit
No worries I didn’t take offense to your comment, it’s just that my British grandparents fled NI during the troubles because there was no safe places because everyone was dangerous to civilians, so I try to make sure that’s reflected whenever it gets brought up
Remember, terrorism happens when peaceful resolution is made impossible
watanabe0@reddit
Fixed that for you
MechanicCautious6945@reddit
Remind me again, who killed more people (60% of fatalities) than any one else in the Troubles? I’ll give you a clue - they also killed more catholic civilians than the British army / security forces did. Numbers don’t lie.
TheDucksAreComingoOo@reddit
Jesus Christ you're dumb. Please tell me you're trolling and not a stupid ass yank cosplaying qs an Irish man
CEverett23@reddit
I believe it was banned because it said that Ireland reunified in 2025
Luppercus@reddit
2024, and also because it said it happen because IRA terrorism was succesful
kdlangequalsgoddess@reddit
It was banned on the BBC, but heathens who had satellite TV in the UK could watch it on Sky, IIRC.
watanabe0@reddit
Yes, because of one line about the reunification of Ireland.
PlumtreeChloe@reddit
The entire episode is about the Troubles in Ireland, not just that one line.
Einveldi_@reddit
I’ve variously heard it was banned or cut.
bridgeburner84@reddit
The dirty little secret is that sometimes, a situation is such that the more powerful party is never, ever going to give ground. In Northern Ireland, where I grew up, that meant Catholics being treated like second class citizens in their own country. They were kept out of the good jobs, all the decent housing. They were profiled, and basically treated like shit by the police and British Army.
Now, I was raised Protestant. Fundamentalist Christian, Ian Paisley's church, all that stuff. We were taught that this discrimination was justified. Even as a kid, I never entirely bought this. I figured the only difference between me and some Catholic kid was that I was born, by sheer happenstance, on the other side of town.
We grew up with bomb scares , police and army checkpoints, military helicopters overhead all the time. The teatime news was a litany of bombings, beatings, and killings. People just vanished sometimes. The IRA killed many innocent people, both Protestants and Catholics. They killed cops and soldiers. They were monsters. There were Loyalist paramilitaries too, and they also killed the innocent. They were monsters too. Although honestly most of those guys were just fucking drug dealers with delusions of grandeur.
Here's the thing - I don't know if anything would have changed for Catholics here had the IRA never existed. I don't believe in killing innocent people for political ends. But does terrorism work sometimes? It absolutely does. And here's the scary thing – I'm not sure there's always a good way, a clean way, to throw off oppression. The French Resistance killed innocents. Everybody talks about the Good Friday Agreement, rightfully. We made peace. We talked. It's not perfect, but we're not at war anymore.
Less_Likely@reddit
Terrorism is never justified, but it can be effective.
Xiao1insty1e@reddit
Define terrorism.
Less_Likely@reddit
the use of violence against general population (especially noncombatants), to create fear and coerce a population to action - or intimidate into inaction - in order to achieve a political or social agenda
MindlessVariety8311@reddit
Terrorism is a matter of perspective. The state deems its violence good and legitimate while violence against it is evil and wrong. It is all a matter of power and who is in charge.
Normal_Ad7101@reddit
Precisely, nazi propaganda called Resistance's fighters terrorists
MrDialectical@reddit
They called Nelson Mandela a terrorist. U.S. policy says Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism today. They called the Vietcong terrorists. The Koreans fighting Japanese occupation, and later American invaders, were called terrorists. And so on.
imjusthereforlaugh@reddit
In few aspects. There's a vast vast majority consensus in civilized countries regarding what is or is not "terrorism".
MrDialectical@reddit
“Civilized countries” thanks for telling us everything we need to know about how you are approaching this issue 😂
MindlessVariety8311@reddit
Which countries are civilized? When Al Qaeda attacked US military targets, is that terrorism? When the US attacks civilian targets is that terrorism? I think it all depends on who gets to decide who is civilized and who is not. When Obama droned an American citizen because he was a "terrorist" even though he was a propagandist and killed far fewer people than Obama, was that terrorism?
larrydavidballsack@reddit
agreed. the US bombing that girls school in iran is 100% terrorism and not at all civilized.
Xiao1insty1e@reddit
Not according to the US it isn't. You gonna write some history books and get them published? Maybe get an Bill passed that publicly acknowledges the war crimes our government committed? Cause without that what you or I think about it is a fart in the wind.
Drtikol42@reddit
Sure, what is consensus on Afghan Mujahideen now? It changed like 4 times just in my lifetime so forgive the confusion.
Luppercus@reddit
Are there non-civilized countries?
Natural_Comparison21@reddit
Not really. Government propaganda is a hell of a drug.
Tryhard_3@reddit
rando1459@reddit
An ability and willingness to commit superior violence is the bedrock of every civilization since the dawn of recorded history.
cosp85classic@reddit
You are not wrong about human history, but you kinda missed the point. Roddenberry's vision and hope, as spoken through Picard, was that we would learn to resolve conflict through negotiation and compromise.
So OP is asking which do you think is the best: violence or genuine diplomacy. Not what we have actually experienced.
Xiao1insty1e@reddit
The problem with Picard's approach is when you come up against fascism they cannot be negotiated with because they will never deal in good faith. They do not believe you have a right to govern yourself and seek to dominate. Any negotiation with fascists is just free leverage you are giving your enemies.
rando1459@reddit
I think you may have missed the point of my comment.
GeneseeJunior@reddit
RECORDED history, maybe.
rando1459@reddit
WDYM?
Malnurtured_Snay@reddit
I suspect along the lines of "the victor writes the history books."
GeneseeJunior@reddit
More in the sense that what we tend to think of as "history" largely comes from times and societies where people withholding resources from each other with the threat of violence has taken over as the norm.
In the actual history of humanity, mutual support within societies has been at least as important as forcefully taking things from each other.
rando1459@reddit
That’s an interesting perspective. Can you name any examples of successful societies that exclusively did the mutual support part without the ability and willingness to commit superior violence part?
Ketzerfriend@reddit
Whether one is called a terrorist or a freedom fighter, is a matter of perspective and established alliances.
Let's take Al Qaeda for an example:
The Mudjaheddin in Afghanistan were supported by the US in their freedom fight against the Soviets, and actually, they weren't quite as radical then, as we later experienced Al Qaeda to be. They just wanted to rid themselves of the Soviets. The turn from freedom fighters to terrorists (as far as the media narratives of the day were concerned) happened, when the US reintroduced mercenaries into war. They were actually quite proud of themselves, as they brought medieval times back, but I digress.
Those mercenaries were young, poor, futureless and highly radicalized muslims recruited by the US from all over North Africa and shipped to Afghanistan. The Soviets retreated, and thusly, the former Mudjaheddin - freedom fighters - became Al Qaeda - terrorists, as all those mercs caused a hard push towards the extreme religious right in what one might consider their regional Overton window. So, instead of Afghanistan becoming a thankful partner to the US in the region, they began making an issue out of unbelievers smudging their holy sites and stuff like that.
Xiao1insty1e@reddit
To err is human to really fuck things up you need capitalism.
CharacterMaybe7950@reddit
I grew up with the IRA trying to kill random kids like me and, on the news, politicians would be trying to stop American politicians supporting them. Trying to get them to understand that it’s just dead kids, random people. It’s just murder.
On 9/11 it was ‘maybe finally, they’ll understand?’
But people never did.
We still don’t have bins at stations, just clear bags. Because people kept trying to kill folks going to work.
Xiao1insty1e@reddit
I'm sure they were doing this unprovoked and without cause. People are known for committing random acts of violence that could very likely get themselves jailed or killed.
We understand that a group of people do not just wake up and choose violence. We understand that there is long standing and ongoing injustice and persecution before a group of people are pushed to kill strangers.
How have you lived through this and not learned this basic tennent?
IRA weren't just murderous bogeymen, there is long standing oppression that your government and society have refused to deal with. Much like immigrants in the States if you only listen to the government then you'll believe that blood thirsty hordes of brown rapists are coming to, steal your job, take your home, and eat your pets.
thisistheSnydercut@reddit
Weird, I grew up with the UDF, PSNI and British Military forces trying to kill kids, kidnap my relatives and throw them in internment camps without trial.
800 years.
Scourge_of_scrode@reddit
Change? Sure, good change? Not usually.
watanabe0@reddit
It absolutely is not lol
BeefyBoi6_9@reddit
Wether you like that form of political change is irrelevant, it is effective
watanabe0@reddit
Oh I was referring to the High Ground as an episode being good in any way, never mind as a political discourse.
BeefyBoi6_9@reddit
OH LOOOL oh yea no there are far better episodes for politicalness in tng than this one let alone better episodes youre right
Fabulous-Soup-6901@reddit
It’s not effective, though. It’s so ineffective that political change only happened in Northern Ireland when terrorists committed to stop terrorizing.
fartingbeagle@reddit
And most of the hard work had been put in by John Hume and the SDLP, who everyone skips over.
BeefyBoi6_9@reddit
But that was after they had been terrorizing. The first came before the last, the effect they wanted was there. Terror gets results. It isnt good results or optimal or happy, but it gets results. 9/11 caused the entire country of the US to domino effect the economy and funnel all money to military first then economy to break last in 08. It wasnt optimal, but it got results.
watanabe0@reddit
Compare that to Scotland which has attempted it without violence and where that's got them.
Takseen@reddit
And terrorist groups on both sides agreed to stop terrorizing in exchange for some of their political goals being achieved.
SleepWouldBeNice@reddit
I'm sure if the word had existed back then, the British would have called the Revolutionary Americans "terrorists".
f700es@reddit
TNG had such good writing.
watanabe0@reddit
Do False Flags count as terrorism?
zeptimius@reddit
Data's argument seems to be undermined by the failure of Ireland to unify in 2024.
cRaZyDaVe23@reddit
Several burned out warehouse remnants agree.
HellyOHaint@reddit
I agree with Data but that’s not what the IRA did.
Takseen@reddit
What type of violence would he have been referring to?
FuriousFister98@reddit
Kyle's banned speech on South Park:
Unit_79@reddit
Remember kids, Terrorism is defined as a stateless act. Which means if a recognized country decides your country isn’t real, any action your country enacts is deemed terrorism.
FLAtarian@reddit
My terrorism your freedom fighter.
a_terse_giraffe@reddit
JohnnyRyde@reddit
"Up the RA." - Lieutenant Commander Data
GeneseeJunior@reddit
This is one of those episodes that left me cold as a teenager, but as an adult I find it one of the most interesting.
Blep145@reddit
True wisdom is knowing when to use the pen or the sword. When the pen fails, the time for the sword