Crazy SIC insurance requirements !?
Posted by Breazzyy-@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 31 comments
Hey all. I got hired to fly a Learjet 31 as SIC and even have the type rating course booked to start in two weeks. However, looks like insurance might be an issue. For context, I have almost 1900 TT 250 multi (all piston, no turbine).
The captain got the following text from the insurance broker:
Your SIC might run into issues with insurers. The usual open pilot warranty for a SIC on a turbojet needs at least 2,000 flight hours, including 1,000 as PIC or SIC in turbojets, with at least 250 hours in the specific make and model. Insurers think this is fair but are flexible. If he has over 1,000 jet hours but less than 250 hours in the make and model, or more than 250 hours in the make but fewer jet hours, they’re open to negotiations. No make and model experience but lots of jet hours? That could work too.
Right now, your SIC has none of this—no make or model hours and no jet hours—so most markets will likely reject him.
Wtf? I’ve seen pilots here in the US getting insured to fly similar or even bigger jets with way less total and multi time!!
UNDR08@reddit
Yeah. Sounds about right for now a days.
galloping_skeptic@reddit
Ok so the wording here is important. They are referring to an Open Pilot Warranty, which is essentially the insurance company's way to give you options, but with restrictions. If you plan to have 1 specific SIC for a longer period of time (as opposed to using multiple people) ask the broker about having that person listed as a "named pilot".
BELFORD16@reddit
Open pilot VS Named Pilot. I’ve heard of named pilots being able to get away with less time than an Open Pilot clause. But your HMFIC should already be aware of that and trying. They also should have checked that before hiring you.
appenz@reddit
This. Zero chance he will fit under the open pilot clause. Named pilot may work, but may create high additional cost. I don't know pricing for learjets, but for a PC-12 someone with zero turbine experience adds 0.2%-0.3% of hull value.
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Learjet especially a lear 31 is a hot and vintage aircraft. I’m not surprised they are requiring a lot of time in type. Look for another broker if you can.
Mr-Plop@reddit
It's funny because the older the jet the more requirements they want. It's almost as if newer jets are safer
0621Hertz@reddit
Counterpoint, positions for G700 jobs are requiring an insane amount of time as well.
Theres a sweet spot, I think most pilots first jet is a Citation variant.
scottyh214@reddit
Insurance on a 91 jet is a joke. I fly a Citation X for a 135. I started with similar stats to you, though with some jet experience and a bit more multi (not THAT much bit some). I had a guy local to me looking for an SIC on a smaller Falcon. Insurance wouldnt even look at me. They mandated 2000 PIC, 1000 TJPIC, 1000 Multi PIC, and 100 MM PIC to be a SECOND IN COMMAND! Just insane.
KingofRoam@reddit
I’ve had a few jet jobs poof away due to insurance… entry level jobs want 4 years experience.
weech@reddit
How is someone supposed to have 1000 SIC in turbojets to be insured to fly their first SIC gig? lol
KingofRoam@reddit
If you find out, let me know
FlyingShadow1@reddit
You need to be named insured as I have found out. Open pilot clauses are crazy and there's lots of liability behind it. It basically means any pilot can be insured if they meet those requirements and without vetting each pilot it's hard to insure them.
Also open pilot clauses put you at serious risk, the insurance company WILL come after you for money.
zeropapagolf@reddit
"Open pilot" is the keyword here. Sounds like they are not wanting to name you on the insurance. Open pilot is always much higher requirements than what it would take to actually get named on the insurance.
21MPH21@reddit
SIC - I mean, what does that mean to you?
Shouldn't you have some experience in the jet your second IN COMMAND of? Or another jet? Maybe, at least 10hrs of sim time, in a jet.
I dunno if the ultra rich realize they're a heart attack away from a SIC, possibly with zero hours, controlling their fate.
Obviously the insurance Co cares to have a qualified SIC.
MehCFI@reddit
How you gonna get experience without being an sic lol
21MPH21@reddit
Same way 121 does lol
Training then sims and check rides. Pass those then fly with a check airman. If they sign you off you're an actual SIC
i'M sIC bEcaUze bOBbY hIrED mE
BELFORD16@reddit
Oh, so the same way 135 and 91 do it? Training and sims and checks?
That has nothing to do with what is being asked. Insurance is not a legal authority. One open pilot policy for my 172 is “must have 250 TT and 25 type” I have a friend at an airline who does NOT have 25 in type, do you think they are qualified to fly a 172? It’s almost like insurance and legal requirements are not the same. Dude is just complaining that insurance won’t cover him unless he has a whole lot of arbitrary time. He even says he’s going to school. So shut up with that “if you don’t have jet time you don’t deserve to ride in a jet” gate keeping bullshit.
21MPH21@reddit
Didn't say it was.
Absolutely. I should not be flying a 172 and I'm a CA at my airline. Here's a documented fact - 121 guys go have fun in 172s and pull the power and flare at 50'. They're saved by the CFI or pilot sitting next to them who is current in the 172. So yeah, we do need someone with us for at least one refresher landing.
It's not that big of a deal or an insult. Or gate keeping. Different aircraft are --- different.
And like I already said, I completely missed the part where OP says they are getting typed
Cessnateur@reddit
OP is already booked for the type class. This will cover your complaints that a new SIC lacks sim time.
So really, you're simply complaining that they won't be a true SIC because they will lack a single flight in the actual jet with a check airman.
What a weird thing to carry on about.
21MPH21@reddit
My guy I already admitted I didn't read carefully
MehCFI@reddit
Ok so you’re referring to a 61 3 bounce sic sign off. Many sics still go through full training at a sim course
21MPH21@reddit
Haha I'd swear that type rating sentence in OPs intro wasn't there and OP edited it
AND I'M SURE I WOULD BE WRONG AND READ TOO FAST
So yeah, you're right and I'm wrong. The insurance company has high standards and they should shop around.
sound-of-impact@reddit
Sounds like an operator/sic problem not an insurance problem since they hold the keys.
Top-Pop-2742@reddit
You can insure anyone for anything IF you pay for it. Sounds like owner or company or whoever is going after cheapest rate possible. Those look like PIC numbers to me.
SlowDownToGoDown@reddit
There are different insurers.
The amount of desired coverage may also dictate the SIC requirements.
The operator needs to engage with an insurance broker to see what the market will offer/what the resulting premiums will be.
UnenlighteningPsi@reddit
Yep. This is going to depend on how much of a fight the employer is willing to do for the OP. It usually IS possible to get covered but involves a completely different knowledge game to play which is why insurance brokers are the way to go. Many employers just take the first reply at face value which puts the OP in a tough spot.
KingofRoam@reddit
That’s exactly it. Unless the operator is a family friend, or absolutely loves OP. It’ll be easier to just source a different SIC.
wayofaway@reddit
That really sounds like PIC requirement, usually SIC is manufacturer's ground school. However, insurance tends to keep asking for more and more.
Maybe check about caveots for flying with only a highly experienced PIC, or making sure you are SIC only.
Pilot0160@reddit
Different insurers require different things and open pilot vs named pilot mean a lot. Our company’s lawyers wanted more insurance on our supermid than most departments have on multiple gulfstreams or globals combined and crazy requirements for pilots. On open pilot I didn’t qualify to even look at the cockpit but as a named pilot I can be PIC 🤷♂️
DearKick@reddit
Insurance is the biggest pia in aviation in america, besides maybe medicals, when it comes to getting pilots. Its a very chicken and the egg type of deal. Cannot work until have xyz experience, cannot get xyz experience until work.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hey all. I got hired to fly a Learjet 31 as SIC and even have the type rating course booked to start in two weeks. However, looks like insurance might be an issue. For context, I have almost 1900 TT 250 multi (all piston, no turbine).
The captain got the following text from the insurance broker:
Your SIC might run into issues with insurers. The usual open pilot warranty for a SIC on a turbojet needs at least 2,000 flight hours, including 1,000 as PIC or SIC in turbojets, with at least 250 hours in the specific make and model. Insurers think this is fair but are flexible. If he has over 1,000 jet hours but less than 250 hours in the make and model, or more than 250 hours in the make but fewer jet hours, they’re open to negotiations. No make and model experience but lots of jet hours? That could work too.
Right now, your SIC has none of this—no make or model hours and no jet hours—so most markets will likely reject him.
Wtf? I’ve seen pilots here in the US getting insured to fly similar or even bigger jets with way less total and multi time!!
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