When coups happened in Turkey, coup-plotters ruled country through a transitional council for a while, then they allowed elections and became bureaucrats themselves. Why 1967 Coup leaders wanted to stay in power forever instead of doing like Turkish putschists?
Posted by Empty-Pace-4228@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 67 comments
pitogyros@reddit
Papadopoulos ( guy on photo ) after some years he started a liberalisation of the regime and removed plenty of the original dictatorship restrictions.
Released from jail communists and other anti-dictatorship political prisoners , including the guy who attempted to kill him.
In theory he was aiming for a transition back to democracy while he would keep the position of president of the republic.
After the polytechnic uprising by the students and how violently it was handled by the regime
Hardliners of the regime ( Ioannides ) didn’t like this idea a lot and overthrow and imprisoned Papadopoulos and installed an even more harsh dictatorship
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
Woaw, thanks I didn't know that. I thought all ended with Polytechnic Revolt.
pitogyros@reddit
It ended after Ioannides fucked up in Cyprus triggering the Turkish invasion
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
did Ioannides provoke far-right groups in Cyprus intentionally so he might gain more popular support??
pitogyros@reddit
The president of Cyprus at the time wanted to maintain Cyprus as independent nation while Ioannides wanted a union either Greece.
Also Ioannides disliked Makarios for political reasons + their personal disagreements ( which mostly comes down to Makarios not aligning with Ioannides intentions and ideology )
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
"Makarios" adopted a full "anti Greek" policy (even asked all Greek forces to be removed from Cyprus).
"Makarios" following the coup publicly ASKED (UN) for Turkish intervention.
it's on Cyprus.
Fatalaros@reddit
Makarios wasn't anti-Greek, he just wouldn't give a referendum for enosis. Ioanidis was also staunt anti-communist and hated Makarios. In any case Cyprus was independent and the Greek junda shouldn't have tried to interfere with their internal politics.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
well, exactly.
he was "anti Greek" politically.
maybe.
however,
that's idealistic.
Cyprus Enosis was a "noble" goal that some Cyprus people supported. (& was the original goal of them).
trying to realize is not, fundamentally, wrong.
& like I said, what followed is on Cyprus, & "Makarios"
(& honestly, at least they got a Greek state & they don't have to have like minority quotas, "equal power" & other nonsense).
Fatalaros@reddit
It might have been noble, but it didn't justify the adaptation of terrorist tactics. The country was a democracy, at some point the referendum would happen. Makarios wasn't a dictator for life.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
doubt.
England was MASSIVELY against (in fact, if u look into how the whole "charade" started, it is England that's behind it, in 50's, & this isn't some "conspiracy theory" like the "US installed the junta" that majority believe).
realistically, it would have to be "forced" in some form,
& ideally this would happen w/ a Cyprus regime that is on board, (which "Makarios" wasn't, & it's nothing to do w/ ideology, he's just "power hungry" at least that's the perspective I have, based on reading).
Fatalaros@reddit
No matter what epithet we'd like to put on Makarios, no sane country leader would agree to a referendum in joining his country with a ... military junta that Greece was at that time.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
I agree.
however,
a difference between "being against" (for whatever reasons) & actively antagonizing Greece, & when the coup is carried out, fleeing to England, agreeing on intervention, & going to the UN & PUBLICLY calling on Turkey to "restore order"
(and saying that Greeks r "in danger" lmao).
these r facts that most Greeks aren't even aware of, probably, (which is crazy).
Apart-Temperature329@reddit
Yep, anti-Greek-annexation and anti-Junta policy is now anti-Greek.
Greek nationalists are really indistinguishable from Turkish nationalists.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
Makarios asked for the removal of Greek forces from Cyprus because the officers were collaborating with the paramilitaries of EOKA B/G. Grivas and they were actively trying to destabilize his government. Moreover, Makarios was pro-independence not pro-Enosis/Union with Greece.
Makarios was elected democratically by fair elections in Cyprus by the way.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
never "disputed" these.
in fact, u r right that majority of Cyprus supported "Makarios" & opposed Enosis, which is exactly what enabled the shitshow in the first place.
GrogmarktheRag@reddit
Cyprus was supposed to have power-sharing in its government like Lebanon. The President must always be Greek, VP always be Turkish. Makarios, even if he wanted to, couldn't be pro-Greek. Greece had been causing problems in Cyprus for Makarios for 15 years, because we wanted enosis. You cannot blame Cyprus for reacting to Greece's bullshit. Even if from a Greek perspective it wasn't at all pro-Turkish, it was simply an excuse for the personal ambitions of Ioannides and the nationalists.
Prisma1986@reddit
Ioannides under direction from the US toppled Makarios because Makarios was leaning towards the Soviet bloc. However Kissinger had already agreed with Turkey to split the island into two parts (basically the classic idea of divide and conquer). It seems that Ioannidis did not know the plan of Kissinger so when Turkish invasion happened he realized that was an ignorant fool and resigned.
Light0fDesire@reddit
what you guys think about Papadopoulos? for ex, our people thinks the generals who did coup were satan and cia satellite.
pitogyros@reddit
Vast majority dislikes them Minority either likes them or has neutral opinion on them
Light0fDesire@reddit
so its kind of regular political actor.
pitogyros@reddit
Well it’s more like
80% dislike 10% like 10% doesn’t care
But I am pulling these numbers out of my ass + personal experience, hard to trace the exact number
Redararis@reddit
there are many more who think favorable about the regime but they are too embarrassed to speak about that, especially inside the centre right wing party that rule the country right now.
Lothronion@reddit
It appears that this approximation might be a bit too high. According to this survey, carried out for the sake of the 47th anniversary of the Third Hellenic Republic in 2021, just about 11% disagree with now Representative Democracy is the best regime for Greece. And that should also include people who are against Representative Democracy and would instead prefer a Direct Democracy instead. And while the same study does show about 20% of responders say that the history of the Third Hellenic Republic is a net negative in overall Modern Greek History, one must always keep in mind how that is mainly affected by the Greek Economic Crisis, so it is not so much an issue about regime structure, but instead of specific economic policies.
GrogmarktheRag@reddit
Most people hate them, others are neutral and then there is a loud minority of "juntaists" that claim he would have "saved" Greece. It's known that Papadopoulos, alongside Sampson in Cyprus, were CIA assets. Ioannides also asked CIA permission for the coup against Makarios, and then cried when he realized the CIA and Kissinger had thrown them under the bus. He told American envoy Joseph Sisco. "You betrayed us! You had assured us that you would prevent any Turkish landing!", probably because Gus Avrakotos (Greek-American CIA agent posted to the Junta Council in Athens, and de-facto member who could even pressure Ioannides) had told them "Go ahead, we are with you" before the coup.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
the far-right guys really like Papadopoulos. There are even some right-wingers who at least respect him. All others absolutely hate him.
Atlandios000@reddit
Am for no means a supporter of Papadopoulos regime but saying that he wanted to stay is power for ever is simply not truth.
pitogyros@reddit
Oh I didn’t mean he would stay in power forever , at least in theory he planned to keep the spot of president for a period to “ inspect “ or whatever the situation.
The rest is history so how situation would turn out , we can only speculate
Atlandios000@reddit
My comment was about OPs not your own.
Prisma1986@reddit
Every country is different, every person is different. I have no clue who were the coup plotters in Turkey but in Greece these people were peasants basically they didn't even speak English hence they didn't really have any power. They were put there by the US embassy. Even themselves were surprised that they managed to topple the government. So basically they didn't have any plans, they stayed in power until the US allowed that because the people were indifferent for most of the years they rulled.
Fantastic-Daikon4577@reddit
Papadopoulos was a trained CIA officer. He knew very well what he was doing, and doing it very well. That is, oppressing millions and torturing hundreds of thousands because the Americans were afraid of communism spreading.
Prisma1986@reddit
Sorry but I don't believe that he tortured thousands and oppressed millions. First of all only Panagoulis tried to act against them all the rest did nothing. Most people were either indifferent or did not have the courage to challenge them.
Redararis@reddit
yeah, I see them as the useful idiots, who took the blame for every bad karma populist right wing has amassed governing undemocratic from the civil war until then.
SE_prof@reddit
They didn't intend to stay in power. By 1973, Papadopoulos was already planning a transition to a new political era with brand new parties and he wanted to get rid of old politicians. A strong evidence for this was the appointment of Spyros Markezinis (a civilian) as Prime Minister and the removal of several army officers from political positions (including Makarezos).
However, between the plotters, there was also a more hardcore faction that didn't want the transition. This, along with the Navy and Polytexneio uprisings, led to the counter-coup of Ioannidis that overthrew Papadopoulos. Ioannidis was also very staunch to resolve the Cyprus matter which led to the coup against Makarios (while Papadopoulos was much more reluctant to intervene knowing also that he wouldn't have any support from the USA).
1973 was such a tumultuous year that signalled the beginning of the end for the Junta, before any transition could take place. After what happened in Cyprus the regime simply froze and could do absolutely nothing, so that transition happened automatically with the recall of Karamanlis from Paris.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
But isn't 6 years so long? Because in Turkey, after 1960 Coup, transition happened in 1 year, coup plotters became senator for life and coup leader got elected as the president.
After 1980 Coup, generals stayed in power for 3 years before the 1983 elections, after that coup leader got elected as the president and other generals became his consultants.
Over-Percentage-1929@reddit
After reading those sentences I have questions about these elections, but who cares about the little details when there is a nice story presented in a great package.
SE_prof@reddit
No it's not long if you think that the country was unstable for double that time. After the end of the civil war, Greece had 8 different governments in 14 years (less than 2 years per government).
As opposed to what you describe for Turkey, the plotters in Greece had little interest in a political career. Their intention was a complete upheaval of the political landscape (by means of violence of course). They waited for so long, because they wanted to stabilise the economy and the society (failed in both), remove the communist threat (somewhat a failure, since violent persecution rarely completely removes the people and their ideology).
oywiththepoodles96@reddit
There was no communist threat in 1967. Jesus Christ . And it’s very well known that the 1963 election would have produced a very strong majority for Centrist Union . They simply didn’t want Greece to democratise .
SE_prof@reddit
Wait a moment. I never said I think there was a communist threat. But did you ask Patakos??? 🙂
As for the 1963 elections, speak to the king.
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
In Turkey, too, there were always factions within putschists who wanted to stay in power but they failed in every coup. So, this is still a valid question.
SE_prof@reddit
Turks failed, Greeks succeeded 😉
Putrid_Speed_5138@reddit
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
I think it was because 1967 Colonels were officially enlisted CIA workers and their duty was to provide a government that'll serve USA until USA say "That's enough". That why they couldn't make elections because that could bring politicians who won't serve USA forever unlike themselves to power.
SE_prof@reddit
That's not 100% accurate. While the coup was backed by the CIA, the Americans soon got tired by the people in the regime. They deemed them completely incompetent but the situation served their purpose so they didn't try to remove them from power. However, declassified documents have shown that there was no more support from the USA and the two sides had absolutely no coordination, which became evident by the counter-coup and the coup against Makarios which took the Americans completely by surprise and pissed off Kissinger to high heavens!
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
eh,
coup was never "backed" by US.
this is a typical Greek myth.
(in fact, "files" show US had no idea who the people behind the coup were, it's hilarious).
Redararis@reddit
literary the vice president of Nixon was a greek descent right wing sympathizer of greek hunta
Frstmky_76@reddit
It absolutely was backed by US
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
this is 100% nonsense, lol.
Frstmky_76@reddit
Nah
Redararis@reddit
the centre-left party led by George Papandreou was too popular back then, in an era where US wanted a pet regime in the area. The coup was the dam to stop the tide. It postoponed it for 15 years when a centre-left party led by the son of G. Papandreou took the power for 20 years.
Hefty_Jaguar4305@reddit
is this really a Balkan topic? i mean common guys allways this greek-turkish issues in a balkan sub...
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
"History question" not Greek-Turkish issue.
SE_prof@reddit
Is it better when we get the odd Bosnian question that only concerns one corner of the peninsula? 🙂
Prod_Meteor@reddit
Becoz greeks likes chair$ too much.
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
Because in Turkey the only coup that was made by colonels and not high ranking generals was the 1960 coup. In the 1960 coup there were lost of commanders like Alparslan Türkeş who wanted to establish an autocracy, they were purged by the leader of the coup Madanoğlu before they could realise their goals. Had they been successful we would see something similar in Turkey.
NorthWelcome1626@reddit
You are not answering the question, just providing side info.
Being a colonel or general doesn't matter. Both leaders of the coup didn't want to stay in power for too long.
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
Because the question is wrong when low ranking generals organize coups it almost always ends in autocracies. There are so many examples of this in the Middle East and South America, Turkey is an exception to this and I explained the reason of the exception.
NorthWelcome1626@reddit
Again, wrong. Madanoğlu isn't a colonel, he is a lt. general. So it wasn't a colonel coup.
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
So he is a low ranking general what is your point
NorthWelcome1626@reddit
Second time saying this: 1960 coup wasn't a colonel coup.
You didn't answer the question, and provided wrong info.
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
My dude I said colonel to convey that they were low ranking generals it doesn’t matter if all of them are actually colonels or if he was a lieutenant general, it changes absolutely nothing
NorthWelcome1626@reddit
That's another topic I mentioned, it doesn't matter, yet you provide it like it matters.
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
It matters that they were not big actors in the military structure and that is what I have talked about it their exact rank doesn’t matter
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
Yes but it was also the case in 1980 Coup. Generals allowed elections after 3 years. Was that because 1980 putschists were too old to aim to rule forever?
No-Penalty-7506@reddit
No the 1980 coup was an organized putsch lead by Evren the leader of all the armed forces, and he didn’t have the goal of establishing an autocracy. He wanted to purge Turkey of all leftist ideals and he succeeded at this afterwards he got the presidency to keep playing an active role in politics. Türkeş wanted to establish a more nazi like state in the 1960 coup it’s not comparable.
MLukaCro@reddit
r/askmiddleeast
Atdelici@reddit
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit (OP)
Wait, Greece is Middle East?!