Army Blackhawk replacement name released: MV-75 Cheyenne II
Posted by Naveronski@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 155 comments
Posted by Naveronski@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 155 comments
IcedCoffey@reddit
Can it fly on 1 prop? Blade? What the term I’m looking for?
Suspicious_Expert_97@reddit
No helicopter can.
pbrphilosopher@reddit
Single engine, yes. There is an interconnecting drive shaft that allows one engine to provide power to both proprotors.
Losing a gearbox or blade would be considered catastrophic damage for any rotary aircraft.
Naveronski@reddit (OP)
No
Diamonds-are-hard@reddit
Ooof
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
This thing is going to dramatically change the Army's mission capabilities. Hopefully it avoids all the problems of the V-22.
Ok_Buddy_9087@reddit
Like… not being able to land in spots the Blackhawk can? Yeah, it’ll change those capabilities a lot. Make Casevac even harder, and that’s before the drones show up.
Suspicious_Expert_97@reddit
It has a 19% larger footprint in total if it keeps the same dimensions as the flight prototype.
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
It's only 16 feet wider than a Blackhawk is long, and it's slightly shorter than a Blackhawk is wide. The difference in footprint is negligible. It can land in far more places than a Blackhawk, because it can fly twice as far.
It can fly nearly twice as fast and twice as far, meaning the wounded get to a proper hospital much more quickly
I'd love to know how it's more vulnerable to drones than a Blackhawk. If anything, it's less vulnerable because its higher speed allows it to get in and out before drones can be directed to a given location.
davidspdmstr@reddit
It is a pure Bell design. The V-22 was a joint venture between Boeing and Bell. Hopefully Bell learned form the V-22.
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
It sure seems like they did. The engines on the MV-75 are fixed, while the engines on the V-22 rotate along with the rotors. Having the engines rotate creates so many new engineering problems. It's like building a front-wheel-drive car and deciding to rotate the entire engine and transmission whenever you turn the steering wheel.
Appropriate-Count-64@reddit
Well, to be fair, it allowed them to fit much more powerful motors to the V-22 (Effectively a scaled down T56 off the C-130). The V-280 engines produce 4750 shaft HP each, while the V-22s produce up to 6150 hp each. That is an order of magnitude better, and it’s why the V-22 can be so much bigger.
Plus, it’s worth noting that most of the V-22s problems come from the gearbox and rotor design, rather than the engines themselves rotating. Effectively all the V-280s design allows for is a larger, more robust gearbox in each Nacelle at the cost of power and weight. A less efficient design but a more robust one.
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
The MV-75 is going to use a Rolls Royce engine derived from the same engine used on the V-22, with a power output of 7000hp per engine.
The gearbox and rotor design of the V-22 is built around the fundamental design choice to mount the engines at the wingtips and rotate them with the rotor.
The gearbox can be much more robust because it doesn't have to accommodate space for the engines at the wingtips. That's why having the engines where they are on the V-22 is a major factor in the gearbox design flaws. The MV-75 uses the same engines, but mounted in the fuselage, so it gets all of the benefits with no real drawback.
Appropriate-Count-64@reddit
Ok several issues:
1. The article you sourced just points back to the V-22 engines. It seems Rolls Royce has not released the horsepower figures for the MV-75 engines yet. But they are a different variant so saying they will have “7000 horsepower” is at best misleading.
2. Yeah, that’s true, but that doesn’t mean the problem isn’t with the gearbox design instead of having the engines pivot. Because you want to fight me on this, let’s go all the way into the weeds:
The V-22s design issues stem from the fact that both props must spin within a very small percentage RPM of each other. This necessitates a complex gearbox that can combine and then equalize the throttle output of both engines in the event one spins down below that very small threshold. This means each gearbox sends an output and an input to the other engine across the wingbox, making the combining gear really long and complex.
Most V-22 failures have either been due to pilot error or failures within the engine gearboxes. To attribute the design entirely to the decision to make the engines tilt, and to say that was a mistake, is misleading. Several VTOL aircraft before and after the V-22 tilt the engines with the propellers instead of just the gearboxes and propellers. Most notably the CL-84 Dynavert, AW609, and XV-15 (The V-22s development testbed). These aircraft notably have not had the gearbox issues the V-22 has, despite using a similar method to achieve VTOL.
Bell did not look at the V-22 and change the tilt rotor system because “Tilting the engines is a bad idea.” They had tons of data to show the contrary thanks to the XV-15. Instead, they changed it because the MV-75 is expected to fly into and out of Hot LZs with comparable costs to the UH-60. The center mounted engines simplifies the gearbox system, making maintenance significantly easier compared to the UH-60 (important for FOB operations vs the V-22s Naval ops), and it better protects the engines from ground fire when operating into hot LZs. The Hot LZ stipulation was a major part of the FVL program, as the US Army wanted a more (or at least comparably) survival aircraft to the UH-60. That’s just not possible when the engines are mounted outboard in full view. The engines onboard the It V-280 are also significantly smaller thanks to being expected to fulfill different roles. The V-22 acts as both a troop transport and a cargo hauler, while the V-280/MV-75 is expected to act more as an assault/utility helicopter that is expected to fly risky missions.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
Damn marines ruined the V-22 because they demanded it be foldable.
TybrosionMohito@reddit
For example, the recent CSAR for the WSO downed in Iran would have been MUCH simpler with these available I believe as the FARP could have been outside of Iran.
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
Indeed. It's supposed to have an effective range of 2400 miles, so they could have flown from a base in Kuwait to pretty much anywhere in Iran and back with 1000 miles of fuel remaining.
PoolRamen@reddit
The super snake variants will be insane
boomHeadSh0t@reddit
What's that
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
Attack variant, like the Cobra is to the Huey platform.
boomHeadSh0t@reddit
Huh but the cobra doesn't share an airframe with the Huey?
Middcore@reddit
It's counterintuitive because they look so different, but the Cobra line is considered a derivative of the Huey. The original models were called HueyCobras. They were essentially all of the mechanical parts of the Huey, just with a slimmer airframe "package" around them.
arseguunr@reddit
Different airframe structure but everything else (drive system, etc) is pretty much the same. Something like 85% part commonality between H1-Y and H1-Z
PoolRamen@reddit
All the specialised variants - the AH, MH, DAP, HH... and the Pakistan Special too?
ElSquibbonator@reddit
Why the number 75? Shouldn't it be in the V-for-VTOL sequence, not the H-for-Helicopter sequence?
red-panda-rising@reddit
The focus on reusing names is kinda insane: Cheyenne II Skyraider II Thunderbolt II Avenger II Phantom II Lightning II
Granted the original Cheyenne never really came about.
PlanesOfFame@reddit
Globemaster has been used 3 times (C-74, C-124, C-17) Corsair has technically been used 3 times but they dont count the first one for some reason (O2U, F4U, A-7) Helldiver was used twice (SBC, SB2C) Skytrain twice (C-47, DC-9) Avenger was used twice (TBM, A-12) Apache was used twice (A-36 and AH-64) Blackhawk/Seahawk was used by Curtiss way back in the day too before the helicopters took over the name.
They've been doing it for a long time at this point. Its funny when they reuse them and dont have anything in common with the old plane. The original Goshawk was a biplane fighter and the current goshawk is a navy trainer.
Noha307@reddit
Skymaster used twice (C-54, O-2)
Raider used twice (YC-125, B-21) (S-97 would presumably be renamed if adopted)
There's more lists of "approved names" in a WIX thread if anyone is interested.
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
I don't think there's ever been a more fitting name for an Army helicopter than the Blackhawk. I hope they reuse it for another helicopter one day when they finally retire the UH-60.
of_the_mountain@reddit
Blackhawks will be never die, much like the Huey is still in use today
Maxolon@reddit
It is? Military or civilian?
of_the_mountain@reddit
Both. Us DoD use is limited but tons of active foreign countries military use it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bell_UH-1_Iroquois_operators
cheetuzz@reddit
so is re-using the model number, like T-6
Mr_Vacant@reddit
Its an army asset, they lobbied hard to call it an M-1
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
The Army wanted to have a helicopter share a designation with their premier tank? Seems weird. Also there’s no “M” vehicle type in the Tri-Service designation system… there’s already a V for things like this.
The_Canadian@reddit
I think their comment was more of a joke about the army using the M1 designation for everything.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
Woosh
My B.
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
Next up, the Comanche II. (Stealth heli pretty please)
Porkgazam@reddit
Should just reuse Iroquois from the Huey since nobody aside from the 20 people in 1960 called it the Iroquois.
steve626@reddit
But they are still flying
GenericAccount13579@reddit
Surely there’s enough American native names that we don’t have to be repeating already
Pastvariant@reddit
Wendigo
Mundane_Opening3831@reddit
Ojibwe would be fun to say
seeasea@reddit
Probably would use "Chippewa"
precision_cumshot@reddit
“The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down, to the big lake they call Gitchee Gumee…”
Terrible_Toaster@reddit
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead. When the skies of November turn gloomy.
ThatguyfromMichigan@reddit
With a load of iron ore 26,000 tons more than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty.
SemicolonGuitars@reddit
That good ship and true was a bone to be chewed when the gales of November came early
kylleo@reddit
Oneida?
Dragon6172@reddit
I present the MV-75 Winnebago
kylleo@reddit
mmm.... wisconsin
laxintx@reddit
If the callsign for a Winnebago isn't LONESTAR, then someone needs fired.
GhostofAyabe@reddit
Liquid Schwartz is for combat use only
davidspdmstr@reddit
We are gonna jam them......
BasedMaduro@reddit
Raspberry...
Dragon6172@reddit
I've lost the bleeps, the sweeps, and the creeps
BasedMaduro@reddit
The what, the what, and the what?
goBolts35@reddit
That’s not all he’s lost….
davidspdmstr@reddit
It's my industrial strength hair dryer and I can't live without it
AnalogFeelGood@reddit
It’s called fire. Excellent product, has been in business for quite a while.
BigWhiteDog@reddit
I'm surrounded by assholes!
MacNeal@reddit
They have a vehicle already, how about the MV-75 Potawatomi
bitching_bot@reddit
A flying mobile home? They already tried that in the 80s!
Dragon6172@reddit
Merchandising!
davidspdmstr@reddit
Spaceballs thr flamethrower....the kids love it.
CharmCityBatman@reddit
Umm, that’s already in use with the EM50 urban assault vehicle
Dragon6172@reddit
Put a II at the end of it
thund3rstruck@reddit
Honestly, Crow would slap. Caw caw, motherfuckers.
lueckestman@reddit
Paint them fully black. Would be a scary sight.
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
The “Comanche” would have been cool too.
GenericAccount13579@reddit
That would also be a repeat tho
TheGoodspeed15@reddit
MV-75 Muckleshoot has a nice ring to it
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
Yes, we need Salish representation!
tonjohn@reddit
It’s time for another Muckleshoot Power Play! 🦑
richardelmore@reddit
Maybe they thought that Tsistsistas (the Cheyenne people's self-designated name) would be too difficult.
catsby90bbn@reddit
Yeah but Cheyenne sounds cool af
Clickclickdoh@reddit
Henry Standing Bear agrees.
sorestgore@reddit
MV-7F Milwaukee
ItsKlobberinTime@reddit
"The Good Land"
KebabGud@reddit
if they don't name the first Fully electric Army helicopter "Milwaukee" then we riot
seeasea@reddit
Cheyenne I never entered service
b_vitamin@reddit
Cheyenne dances at the club across from the base.
27803@reddit
I’m just glad it’s not something stupid like they originally were going with
quesoandcats@reddit
The Valor or whatever? That was a really dumb name
spros@reddit
I think Redskins is now a free agent after being released by Washington
AnalogFeelGood@reddit
It’s all about fame transfer.
Revolutionary-Ice593@reddit
MV-75 isn’t replacing blackhawks FYI
MSeager@reddit
Yeah I’m sure this is replacing the Blackhawk in particular roles, like Air Assault. I think the Blackhawk will remain for utility. 160th will probably keep them. The MV-75 is just too big with enormous rotor wash to do some jobs.
Naveronski@reddit (OP)
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/move-over-black-hawk-army-unveils-mv-75-tiltrotor-aircraft-replace-iconic-assault-chopper.amp
Revolutionary-Ice593@reddit
Actual army structure documents paint a different picture. We are divesting all the Lima models, adding no more victors, and retaining all current mikes. MV-75 will go to Campbell and somewhere else aligned with the pacific. But I wouldn’t expect reporters to know that
Mdw2175@reddit
I heard 25th ID but, you know the Army rumor mill is never wrong.
PestilentMexican@reddit
Can we afford this? No countries even have the amount of helicopters we have why do we need to level up to more expensive people carrier? I know it’s more capable but having not looked at the price they’re at least +150M each. Given how many the army would need it doesn’t seem wise use of taxpayer dollars…
Tyraid@reddit
I have a hard time believing this could replace those big blackhawks
froggertwenty@reddit
It's bigger than the Blackhawk, with much better range.
Tyraid@reddit
But big Blackhawks are just better
Chunks1992@reddit
Glad they stuck with Native American tribe names
vogel927@reddit
I wonder if this is the final design or if it’s just a generic rendering they decided to use for the announcement.
MungaMike@reddit
You can see it flying around DFW. It’s badass looking. They flew it at the Alliance airshow like 6 or 7 years ago and a friend of mine got to tour it at Bell. Said the cockpit was amazing.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
Considering the timeline they’re now proposing, with the first ones being delivered next year, I’d wager this is much closer to the final design.
Changes I notice are a bit of a rescultping of the nose and cockpit to be less smooth, the large cooling vents around the gearbox, and more blunted prop caps.
Sjgolf891@reddit
Yeah must say the front nose/cockpit glass looks way less cool now
Salsalito_Turkey@reddit
This probably has to do with the final design using larger, more powerful engines than the prototype V-280s.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
That and the V-280’s cooling in that area looks to be a single large inlet with little/no FOD protection.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
Is that inlet for cooling or turbine intake? Looks too small for intake in this render but that’s where the prototype had it.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
On the MV-75 or V-280?
My complete out my ass thought is that on the -75 we’ve got an inlet just ahead of an exhaust/heat exchanger around the gearbox sitting inboard. Then you’ve got the rest of the exhaust heading aft.
What’s interesting is in the other render the aft exhaust isn’t split all the way around; the cut out is just on the outboard side. Not sure why that would be.
Correct_Inspection25@reddit
It’s ahem… G.I. Slop
dabarak@reddit
Just so I'm clear on the concept, the rotors tilt but the engines don't? That sounds like a dangerous way to do. The transmission system seems like it would be a massively weak part of the design.
I know Beechcraft Bonanazas were somewhat complicated aircraft to fly, but how much was due to the tail design?
Overall, I'm a little concerned that this Cheyenne design might be a little too complex in its design.
C4-621-Raven@reddit
Tilting the entire engine is one of the big weak points of the V-22. They’ve gone this way to avoid that and have done 4 years of ground testing and 8 years of combined flight/ground testing on this thing. If it is an issue it would definitely be known by this time.
The Bonanza V-tails aren’t dangerous because they have a V-tail. They’re dangerous because they have a very small CG envelope and are prone to aeroelastic flutter leading to structural failures. It’s a good design with dogshit execution.
idle_shell@reddit
Also the price point and performance made it way too easy for low time pilots with more money than sense to kill themselves
dabarak@reddit
Cool, thanks for the info! It sounds like this will end up working out okay.
flickerdown@reddit
Surprised that Kegsbreath doesn’t feel that name is too “woke.”
Fonzie1225@reddit
New directive straight from the pentagon, new army helo is going to be designated the MH-9000 PUSSYGRABBER
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TheFuckingHippoGuy@reddit
Just need to sell him on a catchy slogan: "The Cheyenne: Leaves our enemies in a trail of tears!"
Jazzlike_Climate4189@reddit
Oof 😅
YoungEngineer_7215@reddit
It’s the VTOL from Resistance Fall of Man
Mike__O@reddit
The AH-56 program is a wild ride down "what could have been". It was an awesome helicopter that died because of inter-service jealousy and dick measuring. It's a real shame.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
So… who had the bigger dick that killed the program?
Mike__O@reddit
The Air Force. Tl;dr the Air Force was concerned that the AH-56 would be TOO capable and cut into the Air Force's role for close air support.
domesystem@reddit
which they didn't really want to do anyway...
MNIMWIUTBAS@reddit
That's not what killed the program.
The army's inexperience in aircraft procurement, Lockheed not meeting the contract requirements, McNamara's TPP policy, and the per unit cost doubling were the driving factors in killing the program.
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
I knew the answer, I just wanted someone to say the AF had a bigger dick lol
DavyJonesLocker@reddit
Lockheed attempted to carry on the design inspiration with the Defiant X ( their competition against Bell for the FLRAA contract). Such a capable vehicle, disappointed we don’t get to see it come to life
HeyThereItsJesus@reddit
Sounds about right...
fr0zen_garlic@reddit
I don't think tilt rotors are that good, change my mind.
Geo87US@reddit
Regardless of what you think about them. The US are clearly looking towards future conflicts needing to cover much larger ranges, possibly overwater or large stretches of land that could be hostile where FARPs aren’t possible. For that they need a tiltrotor as helicopters are too slow, too short range and the complexity of refuelling in air is too complex and dangerous.
Full_of_Vices@reddit
Deep penetrating, poorly supported helicopters and increasingly cheap air defence capabilities.
Name a worse combination.
ContributionEasy6513@reddit
The V-22 Osprey is no less unsafe than any other helicopter when you crunch the numbers.
While troubled at the start, most of the bugs have been worked out.
It's certainly more capable.
MadStan1045@reddit
I am happy to see a second generation tilt rotor become a thing. Before the osprey it was seen as a future technology and then with the flaws of the osprey that it would be replaced with pusher propeller design. Now it is cemented in history and is still in the present and future.
domesystem@reddit
Fine name for a Dropship.
discreetjoe2@reddit
I’m glad I wasn’t the only person who immediately thought of Aliens.
cocoagiant@reddit
Elephant in the room- does this address the Osprey's design failures?
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
It improves on the big issues the Osprey has seen, yes.
cocoagiant@reddit
That's great. I'm sure there will be issues which come up as the design goes through real world usage but hopefully far fewer incidents.
Merc5193@reddit
I can’t get around calling in “where is the Cheyenne II!” over the radio…
i_should_go_to_sleep@reddit
I’m am going to suspect that it will have a more catchy nickname like the Huey got. Cheyenne, even without the “II” doesn’t roll off the tongue when you want to use some emotion.
TheWolf_NorCal@reddit
I thought all new aircraft in our current timeline had to be numbered "47"?
No_Public_7677@reddit
They're going to replace all Blackhawks eventually?
With all the increased maintenance?
viperabyss@reddit
But they carry more, and fly further. A mission that requires 4 BlackHawk might only need 2 Cheyenne.
juuceboxx@reddit
That was the big talking point that was used in all the presentations. The range meant you could reduce the amount of FARPs needed along the route and drastically cut down on manpower needed to carry out an assault mission.
HawkDriver@reddit
What exactly are you trying to say here?
Cabill77@reddit
Looks like a nightmare to maintain
Jbro12344@reddit
Glad I’m done flying for the army
ThrowAwaAlpaca@reddit
Looks bad ass at least.
vogel927@reddit
The rendering certainly looks interesting.
davidspdmstr@reddit
The bottom picture the mv-75. It has been flying since 2017. I do not think it is a rendering.
Adjutant_Reflex_@reddit
The images are renders of presumably the final MV-75 design.
The V-280 prototype has been flying and, AFAIK, has only been shown in an all black livery and has some notable differences vs. the MV-75.
davidspdmstr@reddit
I think you are right. The pic appears to a cropped from a picture on Shutterstock. When enlarged it definitely looks like a render.
hesdeadjim1434@reddit
Toombs: You know, you supposed to be some slick-shit killer. Now look at you... all back-of-the-bus and shit.
No_Size9475@reddit
Very Surprised it's not the DT-47 Doninator
Apocalypsis_velox@reddit
DT-47 Dotinator [for the Dotard]
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Apexnanoman@reddit
Oh boy. I'm sure the guys that are gonna die when they crash are thrilled.
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