Pulse check on the E-Moto vs. E-Bike debate
Posted by TommyTwoHandz@reddit | ebikes | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Yesterday I’m commuting downtown and a middle aged man riding the throttle on a likely unlocked Aventon Level 2 or something similar outpacing street traffic by quite a bit, passes me on the right of the already narrow raised bike path next to the side walk. Proceeds to blow a red light crossing the light rail, and swerves out of the way of a pedestrian on the sidewalk before he was out of my sight. If we were in cars, and someone passed like that on the right/shoulder they would be called a road rager or a crazy driver. And I can’t help but feel that many of those people who would do that in a car are just as comfortable to ride like that too.
At what point do we realize if we are just replacing vehicle traffic with something smaller and lighter that we should really just be in the street?
I see a lot of rhetoric on here that the dangerous riding behavior is e-motos and not e-bikes, but I gotta say. As a mechanic, the vast majority of “Class 2” aventons that come into the shop are all unlocked for 28 mph, and who knows how many are jailbroken beyond that. But I’m seeing more and more equal opportunity reckless riding from e-motos and e-bikes alike and our bike lanes aren’t magically getting any wider.
With this invention getting more and more popular, at what point are riders like that going to start taking the lane? When does the culture feel safe enough to start taking their space in the street if they’re going to go 28+ and not pedal?
Debugga@reddit
The class system already dictates “where” a rider is supposed to be.
Class 1-2 same restrictions as a regular bike, and can use most MUPs (local ordinances permitting) creating an effective speed limit of 20mph.
Class 3 are supposed to be in bike lanes, or in the road itself; and are generally barred from use on MUPs.
A smart person would read that as “Keep it under 20 on MUPs, and transition to roads/lanes if going faster consistently”
The laws here ARE the problem. Because they’ve been written and the focus is on capabilities of the device, and not behavior of the operator.
My car can go 120 easy, doesn’t mean that’s the smart or legal thing to do. Arbitrarily limiting the device is only half the problem, there needs to be less attention on “that’s an illegal ebike, actually emoto” and more attention to “here is the pedestrian yield framework (horse>bike>person), and safety (be safe, have fun, be mindful of everything around you)”
The current pathway of BAN BAN BAN will force e-bikes out of existence. Only litigating the device ignores that operators. It’s like the whole “guns don’t kill people, people kill people” thing. The person is the problem, and needs more education on safe operation.
Iuslez@reddit
The issue is that if you want to litigate the operator, you need to introduce a licence (aka driver's licence). You cannot effectively control the driver if he has nothing to lose (radar and fines aren't enough).
I'd rather have limitations on the bike I buy than have to do a licence for those bikes. It is also much better if the goal is to have a wide adoption, a licence is too high of a barrier of entry.
Abi1i@reddit
I unlocked my Lectric bike to be a class 3, but like you said if I’m somewhere where it restricts me to class 1 or 2, then I do what the smart person would do and keep it at or below the set speed. It’s only reasonable.
wturber@reddit
I built my Class 3 so I can switch to Class 1 or Class 2 using a three position switch. Technically the bike is never actually Class 1 or Class 2. But it will operate within those functional parameters when switched which makes behavior compliance easy in situations where Class 3 is not allowed.
Debugga@reddit
Exactly. My custom build was built before the “clarification” of 2/3, back when a “Class 2/3” was still generally allowed. Pedal or Throttle to 20, pedal assist only to 28. If I’m going faster than 20, I migrate to the bike lane/car lanes.
It’s following the spirit of the law, and not the strict verbiage.
What sucks is we can all agree that the major portion of the problem is children on bikes they shouldn’t be on in the first place, acting a fool, making us all look bad. Bad young operators, that really just need more education on safety.
Kids should be forced to watch “Red Asphalt” imo and do a quick parent dmv account linked online course to get their “ebike license”. It creates the fear of death/injury, and a pathway to accountability.
wturber@reddit
I agree that the laws are not great - except that their existence did clear the way for ebikes to become a thing. So in that sense, they have been quite good. The biggest problem is lack of enforcement.
Ideally, the laws would be based on behavior far more than on mechanical capability.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Just make sure you rampantly support actual operation based legislation, then.
https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2346
And if it passes you need to work with your local government to make sure they actually enforce it.
BodSmith54321@reddit
You can ride like an idiot on a non e bike as well. Some of the worst offenders near me are the mini peletons of spandex clad riders on Sunday mornings weaving in and out of bikers and walkers alike.
Laserdollarz@reddit
I've realized I'm more courteous on my ebike than I am when I'm on my pedal bikes. Throttle and good brakes means I don't care about my momentum and I'll slow roll past pedestrians with a smile and a wave.
I'm still courteous, but I ain't slowing down quite as much as I would lol.
aredridel@reddit
Same! Acceleration is free, so why not slow down and be nice?
causticcafe@reddit
This is one of those things I never realized how much I’d love to have till I did. I have a DIY conversion and had an IGH put on it so I can shift while stopped. It’s so nice being able to put it in first and just bump the throttle to get rolling from a stop, then shift up a few gears and start pedaling again.
wturber@reddit
Which IGH?
causticcafe@reddit
I can’t speak to durability because I just ride occasionally for fun/to work and it’s only been two seasons, but I have a Sturmey Archer RX-RK5, and it’s been pretty good on my little 750W Bafang kit
wturber@reddit
OK. Thanks. I think Shimano makes on specific for the purpose. That's probably what I should look at. Sturmey Archer also makes a 4 speed for cargo bikes so maybe that one also. But it isn't officially supported.
wturber@reddit
Exactly. No big deal if I have to slow down for a runner, pedestrian, or some meandering cyclist with headphones and no clue. The momentum I may have to waste isn't that precious. The time I'll lose is small and of little consequence. I deal with the situation as safely as is practical and move on with enjoying my ride. Maybe I'll shake my head in amazement or amusement.
Hot_Sale_On_Aisle_13@reddit
While this is true, the number of people who can hold 28MPH on a road bike for any real length of time is quite low.
And while there are certainly exceptions, most roadies who can hold a good pace don't WANT to ride somewhere where they'll have to slow down a lot and weave around people. And so they'll tend to avoid the heavy-traffic sections of MUPs.
wturber@reddit
I've had two Class 3 ebikes and neither of them are particularly comfortable at holding 28 mph. And when they do hold that for a while, they eat up battery fast. A legit Class 3 ebike that doesn't have more than 750 watts of motor power is more comfortable in the mid 20s speed range.
illeix@reddit
The sport cyclists in my area do not care. They happily ignore the speed limit, almost never call out passes and love their illegal strobes.
I've had more respect from Surron kids than roadies in my experience.
Granted, this is my area, not yours, our experiences can be very different. Given mine, however, I'll take E-motos over roadies any day.
terraherts@reddit
By the same token though, it also doesn't cost us anything to slow down. I actually find myself slowing down much more often on my e-bike specifically because it doesn't feel like it costs me anything to do so since I can speed back up just as easily in clear high visibility areas (within reason of course).
Having regen braking only adds to that perception of slowing down feeling "free".
BodSmith54321@reddit
Unless the trail is going downhill.
Hot_Sale_On_Aisle_13@reddit
This is true, but in that case it is VASTLY more fun to ride on the road, where you have plenty of room to maneuver and can blast down the hill as fast as your supertuck allows.
SquirtinMemeMouthPlz@reddit
Came here to say this.
Portland, OR:
Last week, I was riding down Vancouver Street (one way with big bike lane) on my Lectric XP4, and was going about 22/24mph. I wait at all lights and follow the rules.
This guy on a regular road bike was just fucken BLASTING through ALL the red lights. Sure, nobody was coming, but it only takes 1 time to die.
He beat me to the Eastbank Esplanade and turned left across the steel bridge to downtown. I couldn't help but realize that he's one of the reasons I hate driving downtown.
terraherts@reddit
Same here. The most reckless people on bikes I see around here are almost always on normal bikes. Usually either lycra/spandex wearers or idiot college-age kids near campus.
Part of the issue IMO is that unlike an e-bike, there's a huge incentive to try and maintain your momentum since it's all human-provided making it feel like you're wasting your energy if you don't.
I actually found myself slowing down a lot more often on my e-bike.
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
And I totally agree with this as well. If the trails are busy and we’re pushing the pace, we should also be taking the lane as much as possible. Our trails here are technically a 15mph limit which is never enforced or never followed.
wturber@reddit
If the system is jail broken to exceed Class 3 specs, it isn't an ebike in the context of the ebike/emoto debate. It is now an emoto.
We need police to enforce the laws. I think it is really that simple. Same goes for autos and motorcycles. If people are doing 80 in a 40 zone, we need the police to deal with them. It is mostly the threat of having to deal with the police that keeps the people who don't really care in line. You have to give them something to car about. It's that simple.
RedGobboRebel@reddit
Think we've got a couple separate issues here.
First. Inconsiderate and dangerous riders come in all shapes and sizes, and use classic pedal bikes, eBikes, eMotos, cars scooters, unicycles... The biggest jerks around here on 2 wheels tend to be lycra'd our roadies using the multiuse trails as their personal racetrack for KOMs and Strava Leaderboards. There's kids who don't know any better, sure. But these folks should know better.
eMoto issues are around bikes with gobs more power than Class 1, 2 or 3 classifications allow and usually with speed limits that greatly exceed the 28mph Class 3 cap. Issues here are that they are eMotocycles in power and weight, yet people try to use them in bike lanes, multiuse paths, and MTB trails which are not deigned around having a motorbike fly down them. Dangerous to themselves and other traffic on the path, be it pedestrian, equestrian, or bikes. I find no moral or ethical issues with them on the regular road. It's just a legal grey area since many states it's hard to impossible to register correctly as Motorbikes.
28mph. It's the Class 3 limit, but it's arguably too fast for multi-use paths and crowded bike lanes. There's no easy solution here. Changing the legislation is likely going to go too far the other way now for most people. People unlocking beyond 28... that's then just an underpowered eMoto. See above.
What's going to happen? We are going to get more restrictive eBike laws. We are going to loose ground on bike lanes, too. People are angry. The eMotos and eBikes with inconsiderate riders get all the attention. Local politicians are capitalizing on the anger. Worse, these more restrictive local laws are going to be very confusing and inconsistent between towns and counties, let alone states.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
Full stop emotos should be allowed on mountain bike trails. Obey the speed limit and there is really nothing wrong with it. I ride mine on bike trails in the forest an I’ve actually never even seen another person let alone on a MTB. There needs to be places for these kids to ride their bikes and banning them from off road trails is just inviting them to break the law and ride them on the road and around people. I’m in the process of getting a VIN and registering my sons and my emotos for street legal use and it’s a huge pain in the ass. The local cops couldn’t even tell me how to go about doing it except to try to get one from the county clerk specified for a “home built hobby vehicle”
RedGobboRebel@reddit
While I agree that kids should have places they can go to ride... They should be on MTBs or eMTBs when on MTB trails, not eMotos. Those trails are NOT designed for the speed and power of those bikes. Not just talking about the potential trail damage (or at the very least, increased maintenance needed). Hitting a throttle in the wrong spot on technically challenging MTB trails is asking for trouble and risking serious injury to the eMoto rider, and other riders on those trails. I'm very welcoming of different eBikes on trail systems so long as they are set to pedal assist only and speed/power limited.
I applaud you for trying to get them registered for legal street use. They are fantastic machines that I wish more people had access to for commuting. Registration and reasonable insurance options should be more readily available.
You and your family got in on the cutting edge of great new transportation options. But the infrastructure isn't there in all instances to handle them. The solution here unfortunately can't come soon enough for you. Both on the streel legal front, and on the trails. Existing MTB trails shouldn't be forced to allow eMotos. They weren't designed with them in mind, both for the trails, and for the safety of riders. Future MTB trail builds and even rebuilds or redesigns at existing trail systems should take into account eMotos. The popularity of them isn't slowing down, so any new trail design that doesn't at least consider them is going to be short sighted.
Wish you and your family luck in continuing to safely use them. And luck on getting things registered.
Separate-Command1993@reddit
I’m going slower on my emoto than these people on their eMTB so I don’t see what the deal is if the speed limits are kept in mind
CraziFuzzy@reddit
I see no problems in this in-work legislation:
https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2346
RedGobboRebel@reddit
That's a state-wide legislation. That's the only thing that will save us from confusing local municipal rules. Nice to see that some folks in Cali are trying to move that forward.
Around Chicago there are a few suburbs that passed wildly different restrictions after bad accidents involving grabbed attention.
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Local authorities can post legit speed limits on MUPs as well, it's just that it will take effort to enforce them.
RedGobboRebel@reddit
I really hope we see more of that sooner rather than later. It's a step in the right direction that reduces the ambiguity.
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
Agree with everything you’re saying. Thank you for the thoughtful reply!
RedGobboRebel@reddit
It's an important topic, and a complex one.
As an advocate for cycling in general, Class 1 eBikes on MTB trails, and all forms of eBike/eMoto to be street legal in some form for commuting, I feel like it's a a personal civic responsibility. I know next to nothing about local zoning laws, or local politics around building permits. But this is a spot that I can contribute. This is a spot that I can advocate for so that everyone has access to this affordable transportation and recreation.
If it's important to you as well, I encourage you to keep on eye on local politics and attend city council/county board meetings where transportation is on the docket. Especially anything related to cycling, bike lanes, or trail building.
chrispark70@reddit
The solution is law enforcement (of course, this will be down voted). It is not legal anywhere in the US to disregard traffic lights, though some localities allow rolling stops at stop signs. It is not legal to exceed the posted speed limit. It is not legal to drive recklessly. In most cases, reckless driving is not a ticket it is a misdemeanor and an arrestable offense.
If cyclists want full street privileges, we need to be accountable to the rules of the road. If we are speeding and hit a pedestrian and kill them, we need vehicular manslaughter.
Reasonable-Rub2243@reddit
There are a couple problems with giving this issue to law enforcement.
- Cops are not e-device experts and don't want to be. They mostly won't bother. But,
- Cops will always use discretionary stop authority to harass Black people.
The real solution is on the manufacturing end. Make high speed e-devices impossible. And by high speed I mean any assist over 15 MPH.
chrispark70@reddit
You are allowed to drive cars with 10-20-30 times the HP needed to drive legally. The rules of the road are enforced, not specifications.
Cops don't need to be device experts to enforce the law. They are not automotive experts and are able to enforce the law against drivers who break the law regardless of the latent possibilities of the car's equipment.
That would be a stupid rule I wouldn't endorse. America's roads and streets are not Europe's or Britain's roads and streets. 20MPH or 28MPH are perfectly reasonable. While I am entirely unaware of any street in my city with a lower speed limit than 20mph, most of the tertiary streets in my city, which by miles are by far the most common, 28mph would be speeding on these streets. Plus there are stop signs every like 350 feet and so most bikes wouldn't be able to reach these speeds on these streets. The secondary streets are generally 35 and the primaries are either 30, 35 or 45 (MPH, not KPH) depending on what street it is and how complex the street is.
Almost all of the e-bikes being sold in the US are manufactured in countries our laws and courts have no jurisdiction. A huge percentage, likely an outright majority are being sold DTC on the internet by foreign based web/amazon storefronts. It is basically unenforceable.
DonnPT@reddit
Motor vehicle driver behavior isn't exactly determined by posted regulations and police enforcement. Depending on the type of society you live in, the rules will be followed to some degree. Police enforcement is important, but just to reinforce lawful behavior. If motor vehicle drivers decide, en masse, to disregard laws, the police will have no choice but to turn a blind eye - as for example they probably do on many of your 25 mph posted streets, where people may drive 40 mph with no worries.
That's how much the cops are going to be able to do about ebike behaviors that annoy the citizens - next to nothing. They'll have even less ability to deal with people like the jerk OP describes, because it's tough to chase someone like that down without causing twice as much trouble yourself.
I mean, I agree in principle - the problem has to be fixed in riders, not the watt rating of the equipment - but I'm just saying, you can't put out a bulletin mandating responsible behavior and then enforce it. What to do, I have no idea. As seen in other comments, it isn't just emotos, it isn't just ebikes, it's bicycle riders in general too, and the reasons why that is, aren't going to be easily vaporized. But ebikes will be the focus of regulations.
chrispark70@reddit
To an extent what you say is true. Voluntary compliance is how order is maintained and that is true for everything, not just driving. Yet, it mostly works. Order rarely entirely breaks down and US roads are not chaotic like in some other places (India, China). To some extent conformity drives it, but to some extent enforcement drives it. There is some small subset of people who will not follow rules. We put these people in prison. I agree we certainly do not want to fill prisons with speeders either car or e-bike.
One change to the law I would like to see is a total ban on e-bikes under 16. Ideally under 18, but we already trust 16 year old boys with cars.... I frankly do not even understand why anyone would buy a 13 year old, especially a 13yo boy an e-bike (perhaps mothers are to blame). All fathers were once 13yo boys. We instinctively know 13 year old boys should not be trusted with such a toy. As a former 13 year old boy, I would have loved an e-bike, but I certainly didn't need one. 13 year olds are loaded with near endless energy. I literally could bike for 4 hours, come home and drink a glass of iced tea and go out another 4 hours. Edge cases, like kids who are handicapped can be dealt with on a case by case basis.
I think taking e-bikes out of the hands of kids would solve so much of the problem that law enforcement could take care of most of the rest. People do respond to law enforcement. If people know the cops won't write tickets for 5 over, everyone goes 5 over. Most people do what they can get away with.
California passed some law (it was a prop, I want to say it was prop 47) that (among other things) turned stealing into a ticket so long as the amount was under $950. People started showing up in Walmart with their calculator applications trying the price is right (get nearest to 950 without going over) shoplifting spree. This literally happened. Or when cities across the US refused to enforce camping laws. Our streets and parks got overrun with homeless encampments. When you don't enforce laws, the laws stop being obeyed. But when you have consistent enforcement, compliance goes way up (though not 100%).
Believe it or not, most people obey the 25mph tertiary speed limit. Most people only drive on these streets in their area, like they live on that street. There is usually parking both sides of the street and little room between the parked cars on the sides and the moving car in the middle. There is little through traffic. My city, Philly, is absolutely loaded with row homes. They are the norm. Just block after block after block of row homes.
bradland@reddit
Is riding a class 3 e-bike recklessly okay? No, of course not.
It's not ok to ride a bicycle recklessly either.
It's also not ok to act like a jerk on the running path.
But are all these things equal? No, of course not, because the risk of injury starts highest at the top, and reduces as we go down the list.
E-motos would sit at the top of the list, because they are, by far, the heaviest and fastest of the list.
This is kind of a strange way to put this. "Taking the lane" is a practice that is only permitted in some jurisdictions. Riders should ride in accordance with the laws in their jurisdiction, and with the same courtesies that they would like extended to themselves (golden rule).
Going 28+ isn't legal for e-bikes. So any conveyance doing over 28 mph is, in effect, not an e-bike, and should either be driven in the roadway as a motor vehicle should, or not on the road at all if it is not registered and insured in accordance with the law.
These solutions are a glaring non sequitur. The problem is people operating vehicles that aren't compliant with the law. Simply kicking them into traffic lanes doesn't solve the fundamental problem.
Essentially, your question becomes, "When are people going to start following the law?" The answer is: when the law is enforced. It's no different than speeding. LE across the country seem more focused on other things.
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
If you're going to ride fast in typical city traffic you need to behave like a motorcycle. Take the lane and follow traffic rules. That simple. I do it EVERY day at 32 mph on my modded Yamaha Moro 07. No freakin' way I'm going to ride in the bike lane unless it's to go around traffic during rush hour.
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
It also helps to be highly visible so you don't turn into a speed bump. Sure, the fashion police here are going to call me out. I DON'T CARE.
Krisargently@reddit
You look....... marvelous!
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
I'd rather look good than feel good.
Krisargently@reddit
You know, it's ironic how many funny looks I get wearing fluorescent garb and a helmet while biking. Oh, well....
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
Wow! Both these replies are actually giving me a little bit of hope back. Enjoy the ride!
Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit
That’s faster than my fucking class 2-3. I love it!
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
Oddly enough it still has the OEM Class 1 stickers. :-)
(and no way to tell it's been modded unless you take the side cover of the motor off. Even then you'll need to know what you're looking for)
CraziFuzzy@reddit
Support this (If Californian): https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2346
Pork-pilot@reddit
More bikes is better for all of us. It’ll lead to more investment in public bike infrastructure, less cars on the road, less emissions, and cheaper bikes. This all takes time. The unlocked e-motos can be annoying, but I’m fine with it. I prefer this to 5,000lb vehicles carrying just 1 person running over a cyclist.
Livingonthevedge@reddit
I ride my class 3 (not e-moto) in the street exclusively. There's even part of my commute where there's a mile or so of really nice protected bike lane that no one even uses and I've stopped using that because it's a pain to get in and out of and only helps with a few minutes of my 45 minute commute.
FarOption9045@reddit
Lifes a lot easier when you dont worry about what other people are doing lol.
Just some advice 🤷
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
Absolutely, but if I open the door of my building to let my dog out and a grown man on an e bike riding down the sidewalk kills my dog I’d worry about it a little bit.
FarOption9045@reddit
This isnt even addressing the fact that enforcement would mean more bike cops, which most cities dont have budget for / wont budget for because your average citizen sees it as almost a laughable use of resources.
FarOption9045@reddit
The "If" in the statement proves my point....
The reality is that 95% of the risk of Ebike and Motorcycles is taken on by the rider.
I havent ever heard any stories about Ebike collisions killing or for that matter even hurting a pedestrian.
Why invite more regulation on something that in reality, isnt a notable problem?
I am not making a case for the people zipping in and out of traffic on Surrons and Talarias either, for the record. But why do we need more rules effecting all of us rather than just continue to enforce the present ruleset on the people who deserve it?
Impound people that create dangerous situations in traffic and such; but dont make my life worse because others cant be considerate?
inline-online@reddit
the rest of the cycling world views bike path ebikers the same way ebikers view cars
its that simple
Shadow-Legion-1203@reddit
I hate this whole E-Moto vs E-bike debate. Cause most people fail to Defend their actual view point. Is the driver driving responsibly? Yes? No issue. If the answer is no, the issue isn’t the bike or that it can go x mph, it’s the driver.
You don’t blame the Ferrari because it can go Ferrari speed when the driver is drunk and driving erratic. If someone has an e-Moto and is going fast but being fully responsible, not running red light, not swerving crazy etc being fully cautious to their surroundings and you’re still mad… just get an e moto stop being jealous and join the club. If you’re responsible, there’s no reason you should get stopped or get into an accident.
LabioscrotalFolds@reddit
This is the current law in NC. If an ebike can go faster than 20mph and or has a motor greater then 750w and does not have a VIN then it is an off highway vehicle and is illegal to operate on the roads.
It is currently illegal to operate a class 3 ebike on the roads in NC. Only classes 1 and 2 are considered electric assisted bicycles, (assuming they are under 750w) and have the normal rights and duties of bicycles under NC law. I think this makes sense. We should get rid of class 3 across the land and declare those to be mopeds.
Options to help:
-Make it illegal to put pedals on mopeds, motorcycles, and off highway vehicles.
-Strict rules for manufacturers about making it very difficult to modify the electric motor. Lowering the max motor size to 500w for EABs could also help).
-Require manufacturers and sellers to not use the word ebike since it can mean anything and force them to use the legal categories.
-Education campaigns for parents
-Funding for bicycle and EAB education in school
ebikes with moped or motorcycle speeds and power are the most abundant bikes being bought, we need to create a legal path for these to be become legal mopeds since they don't have VINs. But we also probably don't want them on bike paths and shared us paths.
illeix@reddit
Right... make it illegal to put pedals on mopeds, the "motor/pedal" vehicle. The vehicle that got it's name from having both a motor and pedals. That vehicle.
As for wattage, not all watts are made equally. A 500w mid drive will easily outperform a 1500w hub motor with the right gearing, which is easy given that mid drives work through the bike's gears. Besides that, the difference between 500w and 1500w, as well as 20mph speed limits, can come down to simple software, not hardware.
I agree on education though, everyone should learn more.
LabioscrotalFolds@reddit
yes they originally developed from motor-driven bicycles but now the only pedals you see on a moped are just to get it started (if you see any at all). and pedals are no longer required on mopeds. but we could just ban pedals on electric mopeds.
I know not all watts are equal but because the 20mph limit has to be set with software, and all software can eventually be defeated, i think we need to do something so that defeating the software has less payoff. And I am open to alternative countermeasures/rules.
illeix@reddit
I know the meaning to words evolves over time. The Moped/Kuzco thing just struck me as too funny to let go.
There's not really a safe way to prevent more than 500w from going to the motor. You could mandate a certain max amperage fuse be installed but you're just going to see those getting replaced (or bypassed), or require a maximum gauge wire to cause it to burn up with too many amps, but I hope you can see the danger in these routes. The safe way is through software, which as you point out will eventually be defeated too. Electric motors are very simple machines at their core concept.
The best way to fix it is change the infrastructure. Make it tougher to travel more than 20mph with better road design. This way there's less reason to go class 3 or higher in the first place. Besides that, you'll have to get authorities to post speed limits and actually enforce them.
gzSimulator@reddit
You should feel safer taking the street when you can accelerate to traffic speeds without effort what kind of take is this
Laserdollarz@reddit
Last month, I saw a teen on an electric scooter, taking the lane behind a car like he should. As they came up to a stop sign, the scooter kid passed on the right and blew the stop sign. "Idaho stop" is legal here, but he nearly t-boned a car that had the right of way, that wasn't an Idaho stop.
Turns out, if you put people on the road that haven't had driver's Ed yet, they don't know how road laws work.
The vast majority of truly unsafe riding that I've witnessed myself, in person, has been children on 20mph e-things.
JeremyFromKenosha@reddit
I have an Aventon Level.2. They make it easy enough to unlock Class 3, but nearly impossible to make them go faster.
It comes down to rider behavior and enforcement.
I take the lane when it makes sense to do so, regardless of whether I'm on an eBike or muggle bike.
More people riding = more jerks, and eBikes don't require fitness to go fast, so year, there are going to be teething pains. Already, we can see some states and cities trying to regulate them out of existence. (but not really funding extra enforcement)
Scavenge101@reddit
There are clearly people who don't know biking guidelines buying these and going out there to drive like morons. Speeding down bike lanes, passing people way too fast, ignoring regular road rules.
But i also would like to mention that I take particular care to follow guidelines when it comes to bike travel, I have never had issues with people until the EXACT MICROSECOND that I bought one of those moped looking ebikes. It does not matter that when I'm forced to use a bike path because traffic is too heavy that i keep the bike to 10-15mph and signal when i'm approaching someone from behind. People go out of their way to be in the way and then make rude comments or stare daggers as I pass (safely). I had one instance where i was slowly creeping up on a father and son and I honk to let them know i'm there, the son pulls out his little bike in front of me forcing me to lightly stop and the dad fucking stares at me like i tried to kill his kid.
It is the first time I have ever had issues like that, I've been speed biking for the last couple years before I decided I need to get something to bypass gas prices. People are never in the way, rude, or suddenly extremely stupid when I'm on my mountain bike. The instant I get on a bike, even with it being road legal, I'm treated like an asshole and there's been a couple times where I think to myself "why the fuck do I even bother trying to be polite and courteous when I'm treated like I'm attempting murder at every turn?".
illeix@reddit
It's tempting, but please keep setting a good example.
So many folks have bought into the wedge issues surrounding E-bikes, and many bad laws have been pushed because of it, but we won't make headway if we're exactly the boogeymen they pretend we are.
Hot_Block_9675@reddit
"...a bike bell does wonders to announce a pass, I highly recommend one for every rider."
THAT is excellent advice. I found a Japanese manufactured bell (imagine that!) much louder than typical and resonates for a few seconds. Easily heard from 50 feet - so no last second surprise. It's not obnoxious and actually has a "friendly" tone to it. Right before I pass I do another another quick ring then "On your left/right" and then a "thanks" as I pass.
Good manners go a looooong way.
unseenmover@reddit
Hahahah dont worry their time will come, and by your description soberly quick..
illeix@reddit
Your rider you're describing is just an asshole. Bike isn't of importance.
But when will we be taking the street? I already do, and I know more people will take the lane when there are fewer cars, both for the safety and traffic aspects of it. So the best way to get riders on the street is to get people out of cars, and onto bikes (or motos, one wheels, scooters, whatever). Feeding the wedge issues will only put more people back into cars.
Serdones@reddit
I took the lane on my Lectric XP3 when the bike lane ended on a main avenue. Speed limit was 35 and I only had a few blocks to go to my destination, so I figured I'd be fine.
Timing could not have been worse. The car coming up behind me wound up being an absolute psycho. Passed me super close and screamed at me to get on the sidewalk. I hollered back at him and after he got in front of me, he brake checked me, causing my tire to skid out. Thankfully, I managed to stay upright.
Ironically, dude had fucking "JESUS" spraypainted on the wooden trailer he was pulling, and with no visible license plate.
Not sharing to disagree, mind you. Riders should feel comfortable taking the lane as needed, so long as it's legal in your city. But there are some freaking psychos out there and I don't blame people for feeling hesitant about riding in traffic.
illeix@reddit
Dang! Sorry you had such an awful encounter. Assholes will be assholes regardless of vehicle.
I absolutely agree on infrastructure though, and I expect there would be a lot less demand for E-motos if cities were set up for 20mph, mixed-use streets.
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
Resonating with what you’re saying.
I feel like I’ve just read a lot of rhetoric here almost seemingly giving e-bikes a pass for any behavior related discussion or news article.
robotcoke@reddit
Why do people insist on limiting our freedoms? Are they all just bots pushing a government psy op? Or maybe they're from other countries and don't understand what we were taught growing up in America?
It's against the constitution to limit or restrict free travel in America. There is a group of people who call themselves "sovereign citizens" who refuse to register their cars. They often put a fake license plate that says "sovereign citizen, free to travel" or something like that. Most people have been laughing at them for years. But seeing these attacks on ebikes just makes me realize that the sovereign citizens might have been right all along.
There is zero reason to start treating ebikes like cars. The reason cars are regulated the way they are is because they weigh several thousand pounds and move at 70+ MPH. The logic for years has been, "you're free to ride a bike if you want to travel without these restrictions." And now that people have found a valid form of transportation that doesn't require government tracking, the government is looking for reasons to put restrictions and tracking on it.
Or maybe it's the billionaires getting worried after that dude killed the health care CEO in New York and got away on an ebike?
Either way, there is no justification for this. If somebody crashes into someone, they are already held accountable, and it's extremely rare. "Ooohhhh, that person was going a little faster than a regular bike...." Big deal. Even if they plowed into someone who was just standing there, everyone would walk away from it without any life threatening injuries. And it's extremely rare that anyone gets plowed into.
The regulations on cars were never about the car going over 20 MPH. They were about the vehicle weighing several thousand pounds. That's why vehicles over a certain weight require a different registration, different insurance, different license to drive, etc. We're watching as the bots try to change history, change the narrative, and force everyone to submit to big brother's tracking.
Hortos@reddit
You've hit the nail on the head, it's projection the anger at the e-motos is coming from people getting passed on their unlocked 28mph "e-bikes" by what they want to call e-motos. Its the whole anyone slower than me is an idiot anyone faster than me is an asshole. Its a bunch of people that have decided their breaking of the law isn't as bad as the theoretically breaking of the law by someone else.
TommyTwoHandz@reddit (OP)
Dang, well said, I’m probably gonna steal some of those quotes for future discussions!
PitifulDisaster3688@reddit
I think we should do better in terms of urban planning to increase bath paths and possibly ones for e-bikes as well. That said, we all need to share the road.
Pretty-Yam-2854@reddit
Me going 22 fucking miles an hour on a footpath with my 9x2 speed because hey, it’s not electric!
hezuschristos@reddit
You’ve covered a few questions, imo.
Actual class 1-3 e-bikes are definitely, and regularly, ridden by idiots who drive dangerously.
E-motos are generally not street legal anyways, most of them don’t have anything needed to be road legal. Yet they are on the road. Also often ridden by idiots who drive dangerously. And also ridden respectfully, but still illegally.
buchenrad@reddit
Pedal bikes are also often ridden by idiots who ride dangerously but legally, both on roads and bike paths.
The equipment is not the issue. The rider is the issue. Regulate the rider not the equipment.
chrispark70@reddit
Most people ride too fast on bike paths, myself included, at least on my local bike path system. The speed limit is 8mph. There are people walking faster than 8mph.
I think it is silly to have a single speed limit for such an extensive and diverse path system. Parks in my city have individual names, but they also are collectively known as "Fairmount Park" There are wide paved paths and there are narrow cement paths. They don't post speed limits in each park and only post a single speed limit on their website. That posted speed limit is 8mph. This is utterly stupid. I would expect no less stupidity from the Philadelphia government.
Theworker82@reddit
I actually see more analog cyclists being dangerous and rude because they need to keep up momentum. most e bikers around me are much safer and more curious. I regularly get bad looks from oncoming analog cyclists coming into my lane while they pass pedestrian in their lane.
gr8tfurme@reddit
The equipment is absolutely an issue, and it's silly to pretend otherwise. More powerful equipment allows idiots to be dumb with more power. Someone being an idiot on an emoto at 60mph is simply much more dangerous for everyone involved than someone being an idiot on an ebike at 20mph.
There's a reason motorcycles require licenses. A motorcycle being electric doesn't mean it's OK for a 12 year old to ride it on public roads.
throwpoo@reddit
Problem is only going to get worse. There is hardly any enforcement. Most people who are in a car do not want to deal with them on the roads and pedestrian get run over all the time.
Rawlus@reddit
individuals can operate their class 1-3 e-bikes without regard for their surroundings, other types of users in shared paths, etc.
emotos can operate their machines without regard for others also and these machines are typically illegal on shared paths with mixed modes of use.
it’s not really a debate.
everyone is capable of riding like an unsafe asshole.
emotos are additionally capable of riding on paths they don’t belong and aren’t legally permitted to use.
no debate.
Ok-Carpenter-8455@reddit
Oh no... Not this again.
tomcatx2@reddit
The kids are at school M-F. This thread may be more reasonable.