What lead to the USA being more car centric than Europe?
Posted by SpecialistTeach9302@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 732 comments
One thing you hear lots of people say is how you practically need a car to be able to get by in the USA since everything involves driving to, compared to Europe and other places where stores and homes all mesh rather close in proximity to one another.
What lead to this or did it change post WW2 or something?
JadeHarley0@reddit
A large portion of our infrastructure, especially out west, was built after cars were already a thing
scarlettohara1936@reddit
Have you ever seen that map of the US with Europe superimposed over it? Like the whole of Europe fits inside the state of Texas! Of course things are closer! The US is almost 3 times the size of Australia!
smallcarbro@reddit
My guess is that Europe didn't have a Trail of tears. Gold Rush, etc.
Basically it grew more slowly and organically. Small horse drawn carriage roads connected everything. Then trains. Then roads.
albertnormandy@reddit
Europe was already well developed prior to the invention of cars. Cities were already laid out and the population was much more urbanized. The US has much more empty land and the advantages of the automobile are obvious.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Which is also why cities like Boston and Philadelphia aren't so car centric.
BlackSwanMarmot@reddit
As a born and raised Californian, spending time in NYC and Boston was an eye opener. In Boston, I could walk out of my fiend’s front door with my bag, take the train to the airport and never use another form of transportation. That may sound normal to a lot of people but airport trips in LA involve soul crushing traffic, heaping servings of anxiety and most of your day ruined.
WoollyMonster@reddit
I've heard that automobile companies put pressure on state and local governments to not put decent rail options in So Cal.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Yup. I'm going to NYC from Boston this weekend and my trip itinerary is:
Walk -> Subway -> Amtrak -> Subway -> Walk
Rush hour traffic you say? Not my problem.
Potential-Drawing745@reddit
How much is the Amtrak going to cost you?
GrunchWeefer@reddit
How much is gas these days?
Potential-Drawing745@reddit
I have a hybrid, so gas prices aren't that bad for me.
This wasn't a snarky question, but your answering question certainly was. Too bad I outsmarted you by having a very fuel efficient car. I can go two weeks of normal driving on about $27 right now. Have a nice day.
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
Yeah but you’re missing out on some teenager screaming “SHOWTIME!!” on the subway then spinning wildly on a pole as his shoes come within inches of your kids face while a homeless guy pisses on the floor right next to you.
So, yeah, you’re saving money but you’re losing out on culture.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Its so funny the arguments people make for trains being a worse form of transportation than the second leading cause of death of children.
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
The argument is probably funnier to people who don’t understand statistics too well.
I mean saying “cars are the second leading cause of death among children” is more about how few children actually die than how dangerous cars are for children. Other leading causes of death among children are drowning and non-infant choking.
The cars on the road represent about the same immediate danger to children as the slice of Elio’s pizza being served today in your local elementary school’s cafeteria.
And when I say immediate danger I don’t mean that the slice of pizza if eaten as part of an overall unhealthy diet could play a role in the child developing heart disease in 60 or 70 years. I mean that statistically your local elementary school’s will likely have the same number of students die from a car accident and choking on food.
Obviously it would sound insane to insist we should ban solid food until age 18 because it’s a leading cause of death among children but solid food hasn’t been made into a political topic - yet.
That’s not to say we shouldn’t continue to work to make cars as safe as possible. It’s just pointing out that you’re drastically overstating how many children are killed by cars each year when you label it the second leading cause of death of chldren.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Even when you control for per capita the subway is much safer than driving.
You are much more likely to be injured or die in each car ride you take than each subway ride. Even if you only consider crime, homicides are more common on roadways than in public transit.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-public-transit-really-safer-than-driving/
Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit
Neither scenario is likely, though, and I don’t live in fear.
Also, subways are not universally available in the United States.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Right, and danger on the subway is even less likely. So why argue that its a reason to not use it?
Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit
I mean, I’m not arguing that “safety” is a reason to avoid the subway. But I don’t think “safety” is a reason to use it, either.
There are many factors that go into deciding car vs subway. And I’ve never been in a context where “safety” was one of the factors.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
You dropped in on a thread that has nothing to do with this.
I never said safety was a reason to ride the subway. I responded to a comment that gave safety as a reason not to.
Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit
I mean, I read the whole thread. You legit used fear-mongering language as if you are terrified of automobiles.
Either way, you could’ve promoted the safety of the subway without describing cars as child death traps. And kept doubling down. It was so over-the-top, I had to weigh in.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
lol what?
I am comparing the safety of subways to driving because someone brought up subways being unsafe for their kid.
What is “over-the-top” about stating facts? There numbers are the numbers.
Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit
It was more how aggressively you were describing cars as child death traps.
Maybe I misinterpreted your tone, but you seemed pretty adamantly anti-car.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
When did I describe anything? I stated the numbers in comparison to public transit.
You’re getting triggered by this information for some reason.
Spirited_Ingenuity89@reddit
I’m not triggered. At all. I’m just responding to the vibe I’m getting from you. Again, maybe I’m misreading you, but you seem fairly combative about the whole subject.
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
I like that you just completely ignored what I said and plowed ahead with your partisan rant.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Facts are partisan?
The stats here are not hard to understand.
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
Misstating facts to push a partisan argument is partisan.
By any rational measure the extremely small number of children who die because of automobiles indicate that automobiles are safe for children. Same as drowning and choking. All three are among the leading causes of death in children simply because children die so infrequently.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
What partisan argument?
My comment wasn't about any policy arguments or "bans", it was about your assertion that driving was better than the subway specifically because of concern for your kid's safety. If you are comparing the two, one is ten times safer than the other.
And again, 13 times as many kids die in car accidents as die from choking. Choking is not comparable to this.
GrunchWeefer@reddit
Lol I have two EVs and solar on my roof. I'll win that argument any day.
MostlyBrine@reddit
Where I live, we heard about the thing called train. Gas is cheaper today than last week.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
You can get low fares on Amtrak in the northeast corridor, but you generally have to go at non-peak times. Peak-time tickets can be pretty expensive.
officialwhitecobra@reddit
A few months ago I went from Savannah, GA to Orlando for like $55. Cheaper than driving down there and I don’t like driving on I-4 so worth it to me
MollyOMalley99@reddit
I live in FL and have done trips to Savannah from Orlando. Since we spend most of our time in the historic district where everything is walkable, there's no need to pay $50 a day to park a car we won't need.
The seats are bigger than first class airline seats, it takes about the same amount of time as driving, and it's nice to sit back and drink wine on the train while we look out the window.
FinishExtension3652@reddit
I travel weekly between Boston and NYC and travel at peak times. As long as I book more than about 6 weeks out, the round trip is $200 for a fully refundable Acela, and about half of that for the Regional.
I'm taking 5pm trains, so the 45 minute time difference makes a difference, plus wifi on the new Acelas is 100x better than the older trains.
With some of the challenges Amtrak has had over the past few months, only the bus is regularly cheaper whenever I've looked at other modes. I tried it once and will never do it again.
Potential-Drawing745@reddit
Yeah, and on the other end, paying for parking could be a damn nightmare. Boston can be pricey in that regard.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
True, I remember back when I was looking at what I wanted to do after college I interviewed at a consulate in Boston for one of those "teach English in Asia" jobs and I paid like $50 for an hour of parking there.
friskybiscuit14382@reddit
If planned in advance, the cheapest ticket from NYC to Boston runs like $30
Potential-Drawing745@reddit
Not bad at all. Esp. if traveling solo.
friskybiscuit14382@reddit
Yessir. Amtrak is actually really solid here in the northeast with close to 40 departures per day along the route spanning from dc to Philly to nyc to Boston. I’ve even the ridden the Acela (high-speed option) the full route to Boston. Northeast Regional is the cheapest service, and it’s reliable and it’s almost always on-time, since Amtrak owns all the track out here.
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
Are you saying that's better than our two departures per day, one in each direction. One at 7:00 a.m. and one at 10:00 p.m.?
Snoo_16677@reddit
Here in Pittsburgh, we have two routes: Pittsburgh to New York via Philadelphia, and Chicago to Washington (I think it was recently combined with another route that goes south of Washington). There is one departure and one arrival per route per day.
The dumbest thing that happened to rail traffic in Pennsylvania was the removal of tracks to State College, home of Penn State University.
In 1992, I read one of the stupidest editorials ever in the soon-to-be defunct Pittsburgh Press. There was a proposal to build a MagLev train that would go from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia in two hours. It's a bit over 309 miles by car. The editorial said that the ridership estimate was absurd because it exceeded the number of airline passengers between the two cities. The cost of flying between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia at the time was between $600 and $700 round trip on US Air, the only airline with that route. By the time someone would get to the Pittsburgh airport plus the waiting time plus the flight time (45 minutes) plus getting from the Philly airport to the destination, one could possibly drive there.
kashy87@reddit
I'd rather drive that anyways PA is pretty most of the time by the major highways.
Snoo_16677@reddit
But wouldn't you take a 2-hour train if it existed?
kashy87@reddit
The point of the drive is the adventure. Plus if you're traveling that distance in that time you're likely flying past the scenery too fast to actually enjoy it.
Snoo_16677@reddit
And if you've already made the trip dozens of times? What if you're going for work? What if you need to go for one day and be home for something the next?
Also, that would have put given Pittsburgh a quick connection to the great rail service between Washington and Boston.
kashy87@reddit
Even with a bullet train commuting 4 hours plus a day across a whole state is foolish. Especially one the width of PA.
Snoo_16677@reddit
I never said anything about every day. I wouldn't do that. Although I do know people who commute that long.
Temporary_Nail_6468@reddit
I’m going to buy a car in Austin, Texas. Live in the Dallas area. Decided to take the train down and drive back. Cheaper than gas and an extra person doesn’t have to waste a day driving. I will be taking the 2:30 train and arrive at 7pm because that’s the one time for the train every day.
Practical-Ordinary-6@reddit
I was coming back to Georgia from Arizona and visited my sister north of Dallas. It was kind of an impromptu trip because my brother's car broke down on the way to the airport in Arizona and my flight was the last flight of the day. It wasn't exactly a refundable situation so I had to get creative and not spend too much money. I got a relatively cheap flight to Dallas and visited my sister. Then, getting very creative, it kind of turned into a Planes, Trains and Automobiles trip. My next leg was to visit my friend in Austin but I wound up taking Greyhound from downtown Dallas to Austin. Then I got a rental car and drove to New Orleans. Then I got on the train in New Orleans and took that back to Georgia. Then I took the subway home. I also took a taxi ride during that trip.
Weekly_Guidance_498@reddit
+- 10 hours
RedStateKitty@reddit
Amdrak does not own all track I know for a fact in NJuch of the track is Conrail.
friskybiscuit14382@reddit
From Amtrak’s Company Profile:
Amtrak owns and operates 363 route-miles of the 457-route-mile NEC main line. Trains regularly reach speeds of 125-150 mph (201-241 kph). Two sections of the NEC are owned by others: The New York Metropolitan Transportation Authority (10 route-miles) and Connecticut Department of Transportation(46 route-miles) own 56 route-miles operated by Metro-North Railroad between New Rochelle, N.Y., and New Haven, Connecticut. The state of Massachusetts owns 38 route-miles between the Massachusetts/Rhode Island border and Boston that are operated and maintained by Amtrak.
Alert-Painting1164@reddit
The only problem is it’s so slow. It’s hard to believe how long it can take a train to get through Rhode Island
SkiingAway@reddit
The train is quite fast in most of RI, that's the main stretch where it can actually run top speed north of NYC.
You are thinking of CT where it's quite slow as it winds along the coast line and is speed-restricted pretty low due to curves/stations/crossings in many spots. (ex: Mystic).
Tired_CollegeStudent@reddit
It’s also helpful that Amtrak owns the track in Rhode Island and, while they don’t own the track in Massachusetts, they’re responsible for operations and dispatching. They also own some of the track in Connecticut, but most of it is owned by CT DOT and/or the MTA, and operated by the same.
Amtrak owns the track pretty much from NYC to DC too, which is why, unsurprisingly, performance there tends to be a bit better.
friskybiscuit14382@reddit
Northeast Regional is faster than driving, especially if you’re leaving anytime after noon. Acela is always faster than driving. Now, I do wish it was faster but in a 300mph kind of way.
Alert-Painting1164@reddit
Oh absolutely I’d never drive to Boston vs the train it should just be an hour quicker than it is
Rev_Creflo_Baller@reddit
Just storing a car in NYC is minimum $50 a day, which seems like something to consider.
raobuntu@reddit
That has to be like 10 years in advance, I've rarely seen an Acela ticket cheaper than $75-90
jiggajawn@reddit
That's the Acela though, isn't the Northeast Regional still an option?
Dapper-Presence4975@reddit
Acela ends up being about as much as the next hour’s regional. I’ve rarely seen it for less than $100. I have never heard of it being $30, unless you’re on a Chinatown bus like the good ole Fung Wah!
friskybiscuit14382@reddit
I was saying the NE regional is like $30 in advance. Usually 1-2 months. That’s harder to swing in the 3 months of summer though due Amtrak’s dynamic pricing model being temperamental to summer vacation and now the impending demands of the impending oil crisis.
Complex_Solutions_20@reddit
How many days off work did you have to take to make that work?
When I was looking at "Walk -> Amtrak -> Rental/Ride" to reach a friend from Northern VA to Raleigh, NC it looked like it would be \~8 hours (including a layover in either DC or Richmond) and if I didn't take off Friday/Monday for travel was going to leave me basically time to eat dinner, sleep, eat breakfast, and head back out home. Or I could drive after work Friday in \~3.5-4 hours and come home Sunday night having basically all of Saturday and Sunday to chill.
Tired_CollegeStudent@reddit
Thankfully the problem with through NER trains having long layovers (in DC at least) is going to be solved soon. What takes a lot of time now is that they have to change the diesel locomotive out for an electric one. They’re getting new locomotives that are bi-mode, so they can operate on diesel south of DC, and seamlessly switch to overhead electric catenary power.
Complex_Solutions_20@reddit
Ah - so it ran at a useful time of day for you at least it sounds like. I'm down below the cutover so it'd be diesels the whole time anyway but (due to where the station-stops were) would have required me changing trains either in DC (and doubling back south) or Richmond (with longer layover) to get from Northern VA to NC, and the only stops where I lived was mid-day
kmoonster@reddit
Tickets are on par with gas for most mid- to long trips unless you need a sleeper room. Doesn't work for a roadtrip where the point is impulse or out-of-the-way attractions, but for point-to-point it beats the hell out of traffic.
FormidableMistress@reddit
It's been almost a decade, but I took Amtrak from Jacksonville FL to Washington DC and it was like $90. There were delays because a boxcar had broken down in some small town and they couldn't get it off the tracks. Then somewhere in Virginia the FBI and ATF boarded the train looking for a suspect. It took them about 15 minutes but they found him and he was taken into custody without incident. The train ride was very smooth otherwise and I got to see a lot of beautiful places. 10/10 would do again. The friend who lives outside of Washington that I went to see often takes her children to New York City on the train. It's pretty cheap.
AAA515@reddit
If your booking this actual weekend like 3 days from now,a Boston to NYC trip looks like $400. One in February, 10 months from now, comes to around $90. Friday to Monday trips, cheapest fares
OutrageousPair2300@reddit
That's Premium seating on the Acela, which takes 3h48 minutes.
Lowest fare is $114 in Coach in the Northeast Regional that takes 4h4m
gard3nwitch@reddit
Baltimore to Boston is like $100 round trip if you buy the tickets early enough, so... less than that, I'd assume.
TemperMe@reddit
NC to DC the prices range from $100-$220 it’s crazy expensive imo when a plane ticket cost $100 or less and is 3-4x faster
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
I’m out of college 20+ years now and still don’t understand classmates who would travel back and forth between home in NYC/Long Island and Buffalo by Amtrak or, even worse, Greyhound. The actual savings, if it even was cheaper, over flying was negligible while the difference in time in the vehicle and comfort was astronomical.
gard3nwitch@reddit
I have heard that south of DC it gets slower and more expensive, yeah. I regularly take the train up to see family in New England, since it's cheaper and I don't have to deal with airport hassle. But I've also heard that the Northeast Corridor is the busiest and most successful region for Amtrak.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Too much. We don't subsidize train travel like we do driving.
In Japan a faster train would cost around $60.
ProfSquirrel25@reddit
You are so cruel! Hahaha
In Southern California, we have to spend 25% of our awake time sitting in traffic (not to mention most of our income goes to mortgage). I have never been on a public bus or subway or train in my whole life (except for the ones in Disneyland or in airports to board the planes).
Ok I’m ready, now, shoot me! Lol
AndreaTwerk@reddit
I thought someone was pranking me when they said LA has a subway. I thought it must be a collective con like jackalopes.
ProfSquirrel25@reddit
They have something but passengers have to have a car to get to it or/and a car waiting for them upon exiting to take them to their destination, because it s not reaching out to many areas , just something along the freeway as I saw
WildMartin429@reddit
My cousin lived in New York City and whenever she came back to Tennessee to visit she would just ride the train to like somewhere I think in North Carolina and then her dad would normally go and pick her up because she didn't really drive.
3lm1Ster@reddit
Double check your Amtrak!
I saw a news article that they shut down a few lines because weather washed out the tracks.
OldDude1391@reddit
Trying crossing a street in Boston at rush hour, on foot. Human Frogger. For someone from a small town, it was an adventure. lol.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
?
We have red lights and crosswalks.
OldDude1391@reddit
Spoken like a true New Englander, no sense of humor.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Personally I just find crossing six lane roads in the exurbs much worse
OldDude1391@reddit
That drivers ignore. The tourist shops were selling “I survived Boston Traffic” T-shirts with tire treads printed in them.
mpjjpm@reddit
Yet hundreds of thousands of people cross the street in Boston every day and we have one of the lowest pedestrian injury rates in the country…
KillBologna@reddit
Amtrak for the win!!
quamquam11@reddit
I live in the DC area and it's the same for me.
Due to Metro closures on Trump's inauguration day, I had to drive to a different train station and it was so annoying to have to plan around traffic and deal with my car.
lord_dentaku@reddit
That LAX departures loop... shudders...
One_Advantage793@reddit
My partner is a great driver and loves to drive. We've lived in California and Georgia and driven all over the country. He has lived in several more states, in big cities. He HATES driving in LA and Atlanta. Nerve wracking - and, in LA, I think soul crushing is a good description.
ForestOranges@reddit
I mean transit isn’t really respected in LA and people use the excuse that it’s dangerous, but I just think they don’t wanna be bothered. LAX Fly Away bus to/from Union Station or Van Nuys is $12.75. Everytime I visit LA it works great for me.
When I need to go to the airport in my city I just leave my car at work and the bus gets me there in less than 30 minutes for $2 but most people I talk to say it’s not worth it and they’d rather just pay to park or pay for an Uber than ride the bus. I assume many people in LA have the same mentality.
atlantis_airlines@reddit
Have you tired taking the train to the airport?
/s
BedbugBandido@reddit
Your fiend's front door?? Are you a drug dealer?
HistoryGirl23@reddit
One reason I love Boston.
beyondplutola@reddit
Unless you live near Burbank airport and use valet. Far easier than taking the A train to JFK that goes local long before hitting the air train. Newark requires getting to a diesel Amtrak passenger train and there is still no train to LGA.
PokeCaptain@reddit
Take the LIRR to Jamaica/AirTrain instead. Only one stop between Penn and Jamaica instead of the A’s nonsense.
beyondplutola@reddit
Except I was living in Brooklyn Heights. I could either take the A train or go up to Grand Central and transfer to LIRR. A seemed to be the path of least resistance.
imalittlefrenchpress@reddit
I moved from Brooklyn to San Diego when I was 26. Imagine my surprise when I realized I had to get a driver’s license.
ThunderbirdClarinet@reddit
You can find that walkability and functionality of transit in California too, if you’re in San Francisco. NYC is still better but Californians from the Bay Area wouldn’t be unfamiliar with good walkability and trains
Although as someone who went to school in LA, I think people underestimate the LA Metro sometimes. Walking and using the metro is a bit rougher than other in places, but it’s underutilized and can still be better than just sitting in traffic constantly
Vigmod@reddit
As someone who mostly travels within Europe, that's completely true. Get off the plane, get my luggage, get a bus or train to city centre. Usually not a problem. I had a minor worry in Beograd because the airport bus didn't take me exactly to the bus station so I could go to Novi Sad, but maybe I should have stayed for one more stop.
But in any case, a police officer with very limited patience for tourists pointed me in the right direction, only 10 minute walk.
Unlikely_Impress_712@reddit
Which is weird, because San Diego public transit might smell really bad, but it's so much better than Boston's. People just don't use it as much.
AssistanceDry7123@reddit
What's crazy to me about this is how people try to avoid public transit. When my husband and I travel to cities with good public transit we use it as much as possible. I don't want to rent a car if I don't have to. People often act like we're crazy. "Just take an Uber." Well, no, I can take a bus for $2 and walk one block to the same place. The bus driver probably gets paid more for my trip than an Uber driver.
Disastrous-Group3390@reddit
Georgian here-did Salem a few years ago. Stayed in Beverly (two blocks from the train.) We spent a week without a car.
moonbunnychan@reddit
I had the opposite eye opening experience the first time I went west. I was so used to everywhere just being walkable/transitable. I went to Kansas to visit some family, and on a map, my hotel wasn't far from this place I wanted to eat so I figured I'd just walk. Well....then the sidewalk just ended and turned into just a tiny strip of land with a barrier between me and the road. And then there were no crosswalks. I had never experienced anything like that before. Even in LA places that looked totally walkable people would insist on not walking. I was in LA for Anime Expo and the wait for a (convention provided) bus was going to be almost an hour because of how busy it was. So I looked at the map and saw it would be about a 15 minute walk, and suggested we just walk. The LA residents I was there with looked at me like I had just suggested we walk to the moon. I walked and got there quickly while they were still waiting for a bus.
serpentjaguar@reddit
Born and raised Southern Californian, you mean?
I don't want to get all provincial, but it kind of sounds like you've never been to San Francisco.
I lived in SF for 5 years without a car. For me, owning a car would have been more trouble than it was worth.
ndubitably@reddit
Heh, San Francisco also has a good public transit system 😉
PK808370@reddit
And, you have to be at LAX, which is objectively shit.
Forward_Tank8310@reddit
It sometimes took me an hour by Uber to go from Pasadena to the edge of LAX, & then almost another hour to get to my terminal for an AA flight. Definitely soul crushing.
MakeStupidHurtAgain@reddit
This is the smart money gets dropped off at the economy parking lot and then takes the free-no-questions-asked terminal shuttle that gets to use the inner roadway with basically zero traffic.
TJLanza@reddit
So, your fiend is in Boston, but your soul gets crushed in LA? 😁
ericbythebay@reddit
You described SF.
Switch-Cool@reddit
I love that I have never owned a car and have practically lived my entire life in Boston.
Sensitive-Issue84@reddit
Same with the SF Bay area! The ponlec transportation infrastructure is shite!
mr_lockwork@reddit
I hear that! I hate LAX traffic, so much that I will routinely fly into Vegas and drive in when I go back to LA to visit family.
No-Profession422@reddit
That's why I use Ontario. I will never set foot in LAX again, unless it's unavoidable. Plus, it's a 45 min drive for me vs 2+ hours to/from LAX.
mr_lockwork@reddit
I love the desert, so the drive doesn't bother me. Plus the airport near me has daily flights to Vegas pretty cheap.
Difficult_Ladder369@reddit
I rather be in my own car than having to deal with bums. I like my space, driving is relaxing for me as long as I am not running late.
goatinstein@reddit
LAX still isn’t great but it’s been slightly less terrible since they added that separate area for ride shares.
RockShowSparky@reddit
LAXit. I hate it.
potlizard@reddit
“My flight out of LAX at 4:00 today”
Friend looks at watch, sees it’s 10:30am: “You better leave now!”
Head_Razzmatazz7174@reddit
Dallas is the same way. They do have DART trains that go to many suburbs, but if you live past the last stop, you still have to drive down to the car park to catch the train.
Yes, they have trains and buses that go to DFW, but they have set routes. Buses aren't really allowed to take side streets to avoid massive traffic jams.
erbalchemy@reddit
Did you try the ski trains?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/masstravel/55069665440/
https://massbytrain.com/special-service/wachusett-ski-train/
AncapNomad@reddit
That's one thing I miss about Massachusetts. The T. I'm a big hockey guy and I loved the fact that I could catch a train from my suburban town and get dropped off right under the Garden.
Nowadays I live in KY and all my buddies down here were trying to convince me to go to Preds games in Nashville, roughly two hours away. No thanks. Nashville traffic is something else. And the potholes. They give any spot up in the northeast a run for their money.
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
Cities like Detroit (!) and Los Angeles (!!!) weren't car centric, either.
The US federal government bulldozed major, developed city centers as part of the construction of the Interstate system as well as the postwar plan to segregate American cities.
Capelily@reddit
As Russell Baker once said, Boston is a city whose roads were once 18th century cow paths, and you have to be an 18th century cow to understand them.
P00PooKitty@reddit
Hey!
The cowpaths were from the 17th century.
Capelily@reddit
My bad! :)
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Hard disagree with Mr Baker. If you're not in a car its easy to understand.
abracadammmbra@reddit
Clearly, you are a cow then.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Are you trapped in your car?
jaxsaxsf@reddit
San Francisco is an interesting case study. Back when they were trying to build the interstate highways, they wanted to ram several freeways through San Francisco. But folks fought back and prevented the worst from being built and chopping the city into little pieces. Then the Loma Prieta earthquake knocked down two of the freeways that were built anyway, and we decided to simply not rebuild them.
And finally, when COVID hit they temporarily closed two of the last highways and turned them over to pedestrian use. We liked it so much that we voted to keep them closed permanently.
Oh, we also kept a bunch of the old street cars and cable cars, of course.
The end result is a city that is much better to get around in on foot and train than by car.
Outlaw_Josie_Snails@reddit
In my city (Philadelphia), we have very narrow streets, especially in Center City. A few of the streets are still cobblestone or Belgian blocks.
These streets were not made for cars. Philadelphia is a walkable city.
Periodically, Philadelphia has an "open streets" initiative at certain times where the city forbids car traffic and only allows pedestrians. Many Residents would like to see all vehicles traffic stopped (except for deliveries) but that will probably never happen.
abracadammmbra@reddit
Philadelphia has the oldest residential street in the USA
TheOperaGhostofKinja@reddit
As someone who drove through Center City for the first time last month, I was immensely grateful for my small sedan and could not imagine trying to navigate in an SUV or Truck.
anclwar@reddit
My husband drives a truck, I drive a compact SUV. It's not really difficult until you want to park in a garage. For me, I have plenty of clearance, but my husband doesn't. Unless you are trying to go down small side streets, the size of the car isn't really a problem for driving.
Outside_Reserve_2407@reddit
It's not that hard, the side streets are basically one way.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
A lo of towns in Italy have strict restrictions on cars. Hydraulic bollards block traffic from entering the town unless you have a resident/delivery pass. Wave your pass and they sink into the pavement to let you through. Its amazing.
abracadammmbra@reddit
I remember going to Boston for the first time. The roads that curved were kinda freaky. Even tho Philly (i grew up near Philly) is just as old, very early on they decided to make it a grid. I believe Philly also has the oldest continuously occupied neighborhood in the US as well.
officialwhitecobra@reddit
I completely agree. I live in the Savannah, GA area. The historic district downtown is very walkable due to the layout being built in the early-mid 1700s. The rest of the Savannah area is very car dependent though
Next_Sun_2002@reddit
I spent a few days there and the layout of the roads was confusing. Looked it up and apparently the roads were created based on paths created by people herding their cattle.
So in older cities roads were created based on what was often traveled on while in newer cities roads were created first and cities were built around them.
PomPomMom93@reddit
Most cities in the US are like that. Chicago certainly is, and NYC too.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Sort of. Most of Manhattan was bulldozed and rebuilt in the 19th century. That’s why it’s full of four lane avenues.
Roads like that aren’t common in Boston.
BearsLoveToulouse@reddit
On the flip side I’ve heard Europeans complain about how some of the newer developments/suburbs are much more car dependent.
Rancor_Keeper@reddit
I hate driving through Boston. I’d rather drive through NYC rush hour traffic than in Boston.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
The key is to not drive.
Usuf3690@reddit
Yes, Los Angeles is a good example. It was founded in 1781 but didn't really develop into a large city until the 20th century. In 1900 it only had 102,000 people, it was the same size as Scranton Pennsylvania at the time . Atlanta was even smaller (of course it had been ravaged by the Civil War
One_Recover_673@reddit
Land doesn’t matter when you don’t have roads. After ford made cars accessible it was the interstate that changed the game. Ford was trying to help farmers initially.
Blue_Star_Child@reddit
The only correct answer is the car industry lobby. They pushed congress to build big highways and interstates instead mass transit so they can sell cars. They also advertised cars as having the freedom to go wherever you want which vibed with the 'American' spirit. To this day they still try to push back mass transit projects to keep us dependent on cars. None of this talk of how big we are or whatnot is the reason. If China can have trains that cross their country, we can too. We have thousands of miles of train tracks across this country. We can build train tracks.
albertnormandy@reddit
No, we COULD build train tracks, the same way China CAN build them now, by ignoring property rights and seizing land. Everyone is in favor of building rail until it's their house that has to get bulldozed for the right of way.
Euphoric-Ostrich5396@reddit
Because that doesn't happen for, let's say, highways... right?
Overtown and Sugar Hill beg to differ.
albertnormandy@reddit
So because eminent domain was abused during construction of the 1950’s we’re supposed to abuse it some more? Isn’t the whole point of learning history to avoid repeating mistakes of the past?
Euphoric-Ostrich5396@reddit
They will cite it as a problem to build a railway (which takes considerably less space) but will wave it for the next highway expansion. This is America, there is no learning from history.
albertnormandy@reddit
If I wasn’t paying attention to large construction projects I’d say that too.
Derplord4000@reddit
But should we? Cars are just way better.
StatementOwn4896@reddit
Not necessarily, a lot of American cities had thriving public infrastructure including trolleys, wide open multipurpose boulevards that were replaced with stroads, and compact multipurpose housing. A lot of it was replaced during the 20th century, and even whole neighborhoods (predominantly black) were bulldozed for or had entire freeways built through them.
TheRealIdeaCollector@reddit
Conversely, many European cities had large parts of them bombed to ruins during WWII. They could have easily rebuilt them for cars, but largely chose to rebuild the old urban form instead.
Jaegermeiste@reddit
Car companies themselves heavily contributed to this - buying up streetcar systems and deliberately shutting them down/running them into the ground. Los Angeles is a great example.
goodsam2@reddit
I think part of this is that there was open farm land a bit away in the Americas. So like 20 miles out of the UK was a twon and in America 20 miles out of major cities was farmland in many cases, I mean many places recently plowed over their suburbs to build a new development in 20 miles. So less a city and more a string of cities in a radius is the difference.
The US had many claims of the best public transportation but also this might be they were also trying to get to the cheaper farm lands.
beenoc@reddit
And it's worth noting that 1) this was not a uniquely American concept, and 2) it's wasn't inevitable and isn't irreversible. The Netherlands was becoming just as car-dependent as the US in the 60s and 70s (rebuilding after WW2 plus sudden postwar prosperity means everyone wants a big house and a personal automobile), but their government and society decided (controversially at the time) to put a stop to that and rebuild everything to support pedestrians and cyclists. And now the Netherlands is renowned as being one of the most pedestrian friendly countries in the world.
Brimstone11@reddit
Which is also works when you have an incredibly population dense nation (1337% higher than US, but who’s counting?). 1384 people/ square mile (forgive my US units).
The US has some very high density in major cities, which many of them are walkable/transit able without a car. But ALSO we have swaths of land with very low density. The rural county I live in, is 59 people/ square mile. There’s no way to really make public transit work where I live.
goodsam2@reddit
But the average American lives in a metro of 1.8 million people these days. Most people don't live that far away from people.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
That's kind of a chicken and egg situation. The US has built increasingly low density housing since the midcentury.
Today 80% of the US population lives in urban areas - but most of those have been built as low density suburbs. We could have just as easily continued building denser streetcar suburbs like we did at the turn of the century.
NekkidWire@reddit
The problem isn't the overall pop density; if people choose to live in the boons it's expected they won't have a bus stopping regularly at their drive way. What matters is local pop density, time to walk to nearest stop and usability of the transport (shchedule, connections).
The problem is the combination of:
AndreaTwerk@reddit
This is true - but you can still see a difference between cities built before the industrial revolution and those built after. Cities built in the 19th century weren't built with cars in mind but were built for trains.
Wide multipurpose boulevards were an invention of the 19th century to accomodate train traffic. New York and Paris both bulldozed entire neighborhoods to install them.
Those boulevards were easy to convert to car traffic in a way 18th century and earlier streets weren't. LA and Boston were both victims of 20th century car centrism but it was a lot simpler to turn LA streets into highways than Boston's alleys, so more of Boston remained in tact. Same story with pre-industrial cities in Europe.
beenoc@reddit
Minor note (your main points are correct but it's a fun fact): the Paris boulevards were actually implemented by Emperor Napoleon III to make the barricade-building revolutionary tactics that worked so well in 1789, 1830, and 1848 no longer viable.
A big reason those first 3 revolutions succeeded was the ability of Parisians to rapidly block off and reopen narrow, winding streets with barricades, which meant that the soldiers sent to crush the revolution got lost, confused, surrounded, and trapped. Napoleon III didn't want that to happen to him, so he had the city rebuilt with wide avenues that are hard to barricade, and are arrayed very logically. And sure enough, the next time the Parisians got revolutionary in 1870, it didn't end well for them because they couldn't control the city in the same way.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Adding this to the reasons human-scale architecture is good and car-scale is authoritarian.
UglyInThMorning@reddit
Well… that 1848 revolution is how Napoleon III ended up in power in the first place. The 1789 one also went pretty authoritarian pretty quick. The 1830 one installed a monarch and that one was somehow the least nakedly authoritarian of the three.
KartFacedThaoDien@reddit
You can see the difference in the inner city of most American cities. Even in Sun Belt cities you can see it despite interstate highways chopping up the grid and destroying neighborhoods.
Just go on Google Maps and look at the grid in the inner city then go further out and you can see when suburbanization & car centric urban planning started.
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Yeah, I'd say there are at least four different development styles/periods.
18th Century - Foot Traffic
19th Century - Trains
1900 - 1950 - Public Transit / Single Car Families
1950 - 2000 - Multicar Households
Its really when we went from 0-1 car per family to 1 car per person that things got so miserable.
whystudywhensleep@reddit
Ehh kind of? Many cities were still well developed before the invention and widespread use of the car, but most were intentionally crippled and dismantled, in large part by the efforts of lobbyists, into the shell of themselves we know today. If you start looking into the transit history of bigger cities it can heartbreaking seeing what fully functioning and well used streetcars and such were all dismantled in the early 1900s in favor of making everything car based
MotherOf4Jedi1Sith@reddit
This and the US is huge land wise, which enabled cities to grow out, as well as up.
For instance, Paris has over 2 million people in an area of 105 sq/km. Dallas, TX has 1.3 million people in an area of almost 1000 sq/km. Cars are needed.
RhodyJim@reddit
The US car industry specifically bought out and dismantled commuter and interurban transit. It was literally a conspiracy to make the US more car centric.
ZozicGaming@reddit
Not really street cars failed because they were not a viable business model and increasingly impractical as cars became more common. Street car companies declared bankruptcy call the time and By the 40s street cars were largely on there way out. They were super expensive to operate so you needed a huge amount of passengers. Which was a problem because street cars didn't have a ton of seats. They struggled outside of major cities because the population usually wasn't large enough to sustain the business. Plus as cars became more common they would significantly interfere with traffic. Because they were built in the middle of the road and from a time when roads had far less traffic. Pre car merchants, taxis and the occasional rich person were the pretty much the only people using roads everybody else walked or biked. Plus busses were far better, easier, cheaper and more practical than street cars. So street cars ended up getting swept into the dust bin of history.
RhodyJim@reddit
When transit systems dismantled the street cars and replaced them with buses (because bus manufacturers bought them), the average ridership dropped by double digits in the first years. So, suggesting that busses are better is not certain.
Furthermore, the tracks could have been used for alternative public transit (like light rail). The big problem that buses continue to have is that routes can be dropped very easily. The switch to (possibly) more cost-effective buses meant less investment in infrastructure. This means you cannot tie your business and/or home to public transit because it might go away next month. This is the ultimate cause of urban sprawl.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
You completely misunderstood the comment you're responding to.
This is a good thing, actually.
I own a home in suburban Tokyo. I live 10 minutes from the subway station that takes me directly to work.
Before we bought that home, I lived a little further north of Tokyo city limits in a transit dead zone, so my daily commute was 2 hours one way - I spent 4 hours each day in transit, and I still needed to get in my car after I got home to go buy groceries - because it was impossible to shop on the way home, and there was no store within walking distance.
I was literally suicidal from the stress within a year.
So now I live on a train line that takes me to work, and I have a grocery store near by - this would seem like a transit utopia, right?
Well, no - because I can literally never, ever move. I cannot change jobs. I will literally kill myself if I ever have to commute longer than I do now. My life is completely tied to my train line, and I literally cannot change it. Ever.
I can't shop or visit any hobby shops on the way home from work because the train is too crowded to get on and off. It's too crowded to carry any luggage or shopping. The neighborhood grocery store sucks, actually - their selection is terrible and their prices are too high. But I have no other option, because I'm too close to the city to be able to drive anywhere. I can't walk to a better store, I have to live with the one I have.
No, the ultimate cause of urban sprawl is the freedom to not be bound to an overcrowded train and a crappy grocery store for the rest of your life. The option to just...not do that is good, actually, and asking people to trade that for being a slave to their local train line is insane, actually.
pseudonym7083@reddit
Literally part of the plot of Who Framed Roger Rabbit?, I guess people think more than just the animation was fake. No, that really happened in places.
sourcreamus@reddit
It was fake. Trolleys lost out to buses because buses are the superior technology.
RhodyJim@reddit
General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia
sourcreamus@reddit
That’s a good article. Did you notice the part where 11 years before the supposed conspiracy was formed half of all rail lines were bankrupt? How the New York trolley system had already been bankrupt twice when bought? How the LA trolley system was hemorrhaging lines and passengers? How New Dealers passed an electric trust act to break up monopolies in electricity which meant that electric companies had to sell their trolley systems and charge market rates for the electricity?
They never had any evidence of a conspiracy to buy profitable lines and shut them down. The only finding at trial was a monopoly on selling g bus parts to the bus companies that replaced the trolleys.
the_short_viking@reddit
This, their used to be commuter rail all over the US.
Kevin7650@reddit
Not really. Look at any major US city pre-WW2 and it was dense and walkable with streetcars running everywhere. LA used to have the largest network in the world. We already developed dense, walkable cities. We just actively dismantled them in favor of building interstates and parking lots instead.
Prestigious-Comb4280@reddit
Most like New York, Chicago and Boston still have excellent public transportation but we are a much larger and spread out country.
Opposite-Program8490@reddit
Other cities like LA had robust streetcar networks that were bought and demoliahed by car manufacturers and have spent the last century trying to build them back.
SkiingAway@reddit
Kind of yes kind of no. Those generally went bankrupt even if no car manufacturers were involved in their demise.
You had three separate problems in LA and many other places:
The network was built by private owners as basically an amenity/tool to promote their property development, not to necessarily be a sustainable or sensible business model long-term even if nothing changed with technology/users. Plenty of them would have failed in future decades (or become very expensive) even if nothing progressed technologically.
The financial assumptions involved if they did make financial sense at all, were based on basically having no competition from other modes. Everyone living there needed to use it to get anywhere unless they wanted to walk or use a horse/horse-drawn wagon. Even the emergence of basic motorized buses made plenty of them stop making sense in terms of infrastructure requirements vs ridership/actual capacity needs on the corridor.
The owner hadn't bought or carved out any kind of exclusive right of way/easement, the route wasn't designed in a way that you could easily make it into one later on, and thus you were stuck in the maximum traffic possible, being both stuck behind all traffic on the route and unable to maneuver around any of it.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
I point this out CONSTANTLY, but here in Japan? The transit system is privatized, and it stays in business because other modes of transit are priced out of competition.
Cars, even in rural areas where they are a 100% necessity, require heavy fees and taxes to own - as the car gets older, those fees increase, so eventually you just need to buy a new car to keep the fees manageable.
The expressway system is also privatized and the prices are synchronized with the train system so the cost for any trip will be roughly the same by car or by train.
Businesses are able to manage how employees commute because insurance covers employees while commuting - but note that commute times are not paid, so you're responsible to your company but still on unpaid time.
Companies will typically pay for your transit costs, but they will ban private cars or bicycles, forcing employees to use trains or buses to get to work.
Japanese transit is literally only possible due to heavy privatization and monopolization (technically I think the correct term is "cartels"?), which, shockingly, aren't legal in the US.
fixed_grin@reddit
And the successful private Japanese railways that were running streetcars in 1925 are not doing that now. Likewise, they also aren't running trains to the same population density around their stations as back then.
Like, Keio 100 years ago ran 1-2 car trains, largely on the street, every 20-30 minutes, to sleepy little villages. Now, they run 10 car trains every five minutes, because it's not in the street anymore. Elevated, tunneled, or at least the road lanes have been shoved aside, while it blasts through level crossings without slowing down for car traffic.
And this is financially viable because the land around its stations, even well into the suburbs, is closely packed 5-15 story buildings or larger. So they can fill all those big, frequent trains. And the rail companies own a fair chunk of that real estate.
That spreads the fixed costs among a ton of passengers. By contrast, LA Metro stops are often surrounded by the same low density suburbs that couldn't sustain rail in the 1950s, because it is illegal to build enough density to justify better service.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
There is one in Tokyo - I've never ridden it; I think it's super localized, but I don't know.
And I actually used to live in Kochi City which also has a streetcar - Tokyo people think that's wild, it's really novel to them. There's also a streetcar still in...Takamatsu, I think? Somewhere else on Shikoku. Shikoku's super rural, though, and outside the capitol city center, a car is essential, especially in Kochi.
It's not just that, they own the land. That's not organic, either.
And they're still at 200% capacity all morning and all night, and they don't run past midnight, and they're still constantly delayed. Transit fetishizers love to go on about, oh, even a ten second delay is a big deal - yeah, because when you're running at 200% capacity, even the tiniest delay starts causing backups!
And they are delayed, frequently. Daily. And the overcrowding is a living nightmare.
You know the solution to that, though, right? Do what Japan does - sell that land to megacorporations to develop, then let corporations ban suburban employees from commuting by car and force them to commute by train. That'll fill the trains up really fast, and they can all live in the same corporate utopia Japan has.
LaurenYpsum@reddit
There's a good documentary on the subject called Who Framed Roger Rabbit.
(Just kidding, it's not a documentary. But it is one of the major plot points.)
Bacontoad@reddit
https://youtu.be/i1Askce-L3A?t=25s
Prestigious-Comb4280@reddit
LA is extremely sprawling area. I don't care for it because there is nothing walkable about it. I love the weather though.
Kevin7650@reddit
Yes, and the point is it used to be dense and walkable in many parts and we made an active choice to tear those parts down in favor of cars.
Life-Principle-3771@reddit
This isn't really true. Yes the streetcar system got removed but it only convered a small part of the modern city and they areas that it covered are still highly dense amd walkable. Downtown is still highly dense. East of La Brea is still highly dense. South of Melrose is still highly dense. North of Slauson...well it's often dense enough to be walkable but idk if it's a good idea.
MileHighMischief720@reddit
There was a rumored conspiracy between GM, Firestone and some other companies to put streetcars out of use in favor of highways. Not sure if it was true and I don’t remember the details but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me.
ZozicGaming@reddit
Not really street cars failed because they were not a viable business model and increasingly impractical as cars became more common. Street car companies declared bankruptcy call the time and By the 40s street cars were largely on there way out. They were super expensive to operate so you needed a huge amount of passengers. Which was a problem because street cars didn't have a ton of seats. They struggled outside of major cities because the population usually wasn't large enough to sustain the business. Plus as cars became more common they would significantly interfere with traffic. Because they were built in the middle of the road and from a time when roads had far less traffic. Pre car merchants, taxis and the occasional rich person were the pretty much the only people using roads everybody else walked or biked. Plus busses were far better, easier, cheaper and more practical than street cars. So street cars ended up getting swept into the dust bin of history.
elphaba00@reddit
This was also the plot of Who Framed Roger Rabbit? but I definitely believe that fiction was based in reality.
Until about the 1950s, parts of the Midwest had a sprawling network of interurban trains that would connect rural communities. My grandma could get on an interurban train in her town of a couple thousand people and go visit her mother (my great-grandmother) in the next town over. But then highways and interstates took over.
Western-Willow-9496@reddit
Streetcars and highways serve two entirely different purposes. A street car system will get you around San Francisco, it won’t get you to L.A.
SomethingClever70@reddit
As I recall, the interstate highway system was built for national security purposes after WW2.
FormerlyDK@reddit
You’re talking major cities. Most of this country is not urban. Cars are needed.
ZozicGaming@reddit
A you do realize Major cities and urban are 2 very different different things. Most people live in an urban environment just not a million plus person city.
Kevin7650@reddit
That’s what most people talk about when they say car-centric. No one is bemoaning the fact you need a car or why there’s no train to a small town of 200. Something like 80% of our population lives in urbanized areas and by global standards it is not normal for the majority of them to have no viable option other than driving to get around.
Cr4nkY4nk3r@reddit
I'd wager that the majority of people in Arlington don't stay in Arlington their whole lives, or even their whole week. Now, you're not just talking about Arlington, you're talking about the entire DFW metro area. Public transportation within Arlington would do absolutely no good if it stopped at the border of Arlington.
Kevin7650@reddit
Yeah, but that’s the thing. There aren’t even any buses or trains that will take you to Dallas or Ft. Worth. The closest you’ll get is a train line that runs along the north border of the city that the train itself doesn’t even have stops at, only in adjacent municipalities. Given there’s literally an NFL stadium in the city, and its population, it’s quite silly that there’s not even a bus connecting the city or stadium to that train line. You’ll have to drive or Uber.
Cr4nkY4nk3r@reddit
That's kinda my point. Arlington doesn't exist in a vacuum. Solving public transportation woes in Arlington without addressing the lack of public transportation in the rest of the metro is a non-starter, since a disconnected island of public transportation in the middle of DFW would be nonsensical.
Kevin7650@reddit
It would be nonsensical to connect one of the most populated suburbs in the region that’s home to an 80,000 seat stadium that frequently hosts major sporting events and concerts to the greater DFW public transit network. Alright.
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
Yeah but you see, the country is big. So we can't have logical zoning rules in cities, we need to make sure nobody is allowed to live within walking distance of any goods and services
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
Well they certainly are now, after spending 60+ years making it illegal to build anything besides suburban sprawl.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
This is the answer. The myth that America was too big and underdeveloped for public transit needs to be dispelled. And another is that parts of Europe actually were super car dependent and took steps to fix it. Dutch cities in the 1970s looked every bit as car dependent as American ones, but they took steps to increase public transit and bicycle infrastructure.
Bobcat2013@reddit
Our climate sucks for biking in most of the country. I'm not trying to sweat my ass off everywhere I go here in Texas.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
I live in Texas, quite a lot of the year is perfectly suitable for biking.
Bobcat2013@reddit
If you're fine with sweating I guess. Id rather not. I'm very hot natured.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
It's 72 degrees where I am, right now. Unless you're racing it would not be too hot to ride a bike right now. And if you got an E-Bike it's basically zero effort to go fast.
Bobcat2013@reddit
Yes 71 where I'm at but 77% humidity. I'm sweating just walking around this track right now, but I could sweat at 71 degrees with 0% humidity too if I was being active.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
Ah, I'm guessing you're in/around Houston? I'm up in DFW and it really only gets humid when it's rainy.
Bobcat2013@reddit
Central texas. Lots of black soil and crops that hold moisture from the recent rain.
Kevin7650@reddit
Places with great climates like Southern California or Hawaii also don’t have bike lanes. Cities with cold winters in Canada and the Nordics still have extensive bike networks. Climate isn’t the reason why we don’t build bike infrastructure.
Bobcat2013@reddit
Well it would certainly keep a lot of people from wanting to do it.
Prestigious-Comb4280@reddit
How large is that country? How much do they pay in taxes? Does everything go mostly through the lens of a state government?
guitar_vigilante@reddit
This is a popular narrative, but I don't think it's quite true. People lived in the US for 150 years before cars became really popular, and the east coast for another 150 years before that. Most places developed in order to have walking or train access to most other places. When new towns and cities developed, they developed around railroad stops. Streetcar based suburbs were very much a thing.
America was rebuilt and remade in the image of the automobile. Places like Boston, Baltimore, and Philadelphia were every bit as developed as European cities but are still very car dependent today (although Boston's subway system is decent). Look into people like Robert Moses, who sought to rebuild America to favor car ownership and to disfavor public transit.
And on the other side of the Atlantic, check out the history of the Netherlands. It used to be very car dependent, but they implemented policies to increase public transit and bicycle infrastructure and now it is one of the best in the world.
Cicero912@reddit
Though the Netherlands is still a car-centric nation
guitar_vigilante@reddit
In a sense every country is still dependent on motor vehicles, but people want to be able to have access in cities to public transit or walkable/bikeable infrastructure. The Netherlands has that access, most US cities outside of Boston, NYC, Chicago, don't have that.
Outside_Reserve_2407@reddit
The entire Northeast corridor from DC to Boston is covered by a dense network of rail transport and walkable urban areas AND many of the countless small towns and smaller cities in between have walkable Main Streets or dense downtown areas : Newark, Delaware Princeton, NJ New Hope, PA, New Brunswick, NJ. The population of the Northeast corridor is about 50 million, about the size of a medium-sized European country.
bigL162@reddit
Yeah but everything in between those walkable urban areas is filled with car dependent suburbs and exurbs.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
I mean, I live in suburban Japan, and, yes? That's literally how cities work. There's no reliable transit in the areas between Japanese cities, either. You need a car.
Outside_Reserve_2407@reddit
I've traveled around western European countries and I remember visiting countless villages and smaller towns in places such as Germany that required either a journey by car or a taxi ride from the nearest train station.
oscarnyc@reddit
People lived in the US, but not that many. In 1800 there were 30mm people in France, 5mm in the US. By 1900 the US had grown to 75mm. Today it is near 350mm. By comparison France in 1900 was 40mm, and now around 65mm.
So iver 200 years ago France already had the infrastructure to house nearly half its current population (obviously living standards have changed, but the idea stands). The US had basicslly nothing. Even from just befire cars the US has more than tripled. France up around 50%. To say nothing of the disparate impact of 2 WWs.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
And yet look at China. Their population has tripled since 1950 and yet they have a robust public transit system with a strong high speed rail network that was built out in the last 20 years. Your point is basically irrelevant to why the US is more car dependent. It is so car dependent because of deliberate choices to destroy and replace robust public transit systems rather than continue to build them out as the country grew.
oscarnyc@reddit
of course everywhere develops based on deliberate choices - choices that are informed by culture, resources, geography, demographics, etc. When China began its hyper-industrialization around 2000 (after entry to the WTO), it's nominal per capita income was around $1k. which was where the US was in nominal terms right after WW2. The US was like 7-8 times wealthier in 1950 than China was in 2000, maybe more on a household basis. In 1945 gasoline was roughly $.20. The US was, and had been, the pre-eminent oil drilling nation. On a population less than 1/10th of China's current population, the US pumped the same amount of oil as China does today. Simply put, gasoline was drastically cheaper for the average person when US suburbanization began. That influenced how the country developed.
People wanted, and could afford, the suburban, car centric life. So that's what they got. China couldn't afford that, but they needed mass urbanization to supply workers for their exploding industrial base. So they got that. Neither is objectively better or worse or bad or good or whatever. It was just a natural reaction to circumstances.
In the same way that China has/is adopting EVs at a drastically higher rate than the US. They don't have much oil, but they do have cheap rare-earths for renewable energy, hydro power and cheap coal. And a population now wealthy enough to afford more cars. So it makes no sense for them to build out a gasoline infrastructure like the US has. Had they reached this level of wealth 30yrs ago before EVs and renewable energy at this scale were economically, who knows what would have happened.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
I really don't think you fully understand how much of our "choices" are shaped by people with political and economic influence, rather than from people's innate desire to do things like live in car dependent suburbs.
oscarnyc@reddit
And your counter example is centrally planned China? This idea that people are just lemmings who are too stupid to know what they want is toxic. Maybe you have differing views, which is of course completely legitimate. It's what makes the world go round.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
My counterpoint is capitalist China, not centrally planned China.
merp_mcderp9459@reddit
It's a combination of both. There are many newer American cities and suburbs that didn't really exist pre-car, and so were built with the car in mind. But we also tore up a bunch of infrastructure to push car ownership on people. It's also always worth noting that there are racial dynamics in the U.S. that just aren't present in Europe; the dominance of the automobile and lack of public transit is closely related to the legacy of segregation in the U.S.
guitar_vigilante@reddit
However that goes to the Robert Moses point I made. He and people like him didn't want public transit to be an option and so they also were pushing car ownership onto people in the new suburbs.
9for9@reddit
This isn't entirely true a lot of American cities that had good transit divested from that in the 1950s and many small towns fully restructured around driving in 70s and 80s.
angrysquirrel777@reddit
This is true for some cities for sure but when 80% of the country has fully invested in car infrastructure it's hard to block it out if your city, even if it requires reworking everything.
SexysNotWorking@reddit
Often by design. Seattle has the remnants of a trolley system all over some of its neighborhoods but one of the car manufacturers (I think GM maybe?) lobbied HARD for it to get shut down so there are just tracks to neighborhoods that could have had it and never got used.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
This is straight up not true - the trolleys failed organically because there was no demand.
uncloseted_anxiety@reddit
Yeah, we’re only just now in the past 20 years starting to develop light rail infrastructure. Better late than never, I guess!
SexysNotWorking@reddit
It is wild how long it's taken, but the light rail is so nice. Can't wait til it's even wider spread!
Maxpowr9@reddit
Ohio and Michigan had so much potential for good public transit and just nope.
The curse of too much land.
anneofgraygardens@reddit
Last year I did a lot of local history research for a trivia competition I wrote and discovered something interesting about my hometown - in the 1970s, there was a plan to run the major north-south highway right through downtown. They were going to remove the old main street and just run the freeway through the center of town.
At the time, the town was small and sleepy and there weren't a lot of businesses there. I guess it didn't seem like a big deal to highway planners, but local people were furious and the freeway was instead run through to the east of downtown. Now my hometown is locally considered to have one of the best small city centers in the area. It's walkable, with lots of small shops and restaurants. Most of the downtown is actually on the National Registry of Historic Places. I was pretty shocked to find that it had almost been totally destroyed by freeway planners, and it made me think of all of the places that faced similar situations and weren't able to prevent the freeway from being built.
shoresy99@reddit
And a lot of US cities really boomed since the 70s and were built car centric in the first place. Look at cities like Houston and Phoenix that are very sprawling. Houston didn't hit 1 million people until 1960 and now it has around 6M.
Sellum@reddit
Land wise the Houston metro area is also larger than the state of New Jersey. Conroe to Galveston is 100 miles and Katy to Beaumont is 110.
_NEW_HORIZONS_@reddit
Really, anything that boomed post WWII.
shoresy99@reddit
True, but some of these cities barely existed before that pre-car period. And they were built as just large suburban sprawls that don't have much of a vibrant city center.
not_zooey@reddit
Exactly. European cities grew organically before cars were even a concept.
81toog@reddit
Yup, European cities were developed around the pedestrian and horses, and to a lesser extent railroads (which still relies on pedestrian infrastructure surrounding it)
icyDinosaur@reddit
You know we are still developing them now, right? Europe is not a museum.
StrikingDeparture432@reddit
Around rivers first.
abracadammmbra@reddit
Thats just most cities period. Before the industrial revolution (and even today) the easiest way to ship goods was on water. So almost all cities were located on a river, bay, or other kind of body of water. Even today, the biggest cities in the US are almost all located on a river, the great lakes, or near the coast. Of the top 10 largest cities in the US the only exceptions are Phoenix and Dallas.
NYC: Hudson River/Atlantic Ocean
LA: Pacific Ocean
Chicago: Great Lakes
Houston: Gulf of Mexico/America
Phoenix: Who the fuck put a city there???
Philadelphia: Delaware River
San Antonio: Bruh....
San Diego: Pacific
Dallas: the fuck Texas?
Jacksonville: The Atlantic
StrikingDeparture432@reddit
Who would put a city in Phoenix AZ ?
Even better who would put a mega-data center in the desert that uses as much electricity and pollutes as much CO2 as 2 Seattle's ? Lol
Don't even talk about Water and droughts in Az lol.
icyDinosaur@reddit
TBH while this is a part of the story, I find this a bad explanation overall. European cities haven't been frozen in time once they were built, they were and are continuously developing.
Many European cities had plans to tear down much of that "well developed" part in favour of car infrastructure (in Zurich, where I am from, they wanted to build a Y-shaed highway through the city centre, and plans to tear down half of the old town for new roads and modern housing existed until the 70s or 80s). Plus, a lot of that historic infrastructure was gone after WW2 anyway.
Most US cities also weren't founded in 1950 or even 1930. Yes, suburbs may have been built in post-WW2 times of car ownership, but that is also true of Europe. The interesting part of the question imo was why Europeans (successfully) resisted destroying their cities to remodel them for cars, and Americans did not.
lucylucylane@reddit
Also America has much more extreme climates people don't want to walk in -40° and 40° weather
topgeezr@reddit
Car company lobbying.
Car companies lobbied for minimum parking space requirements to be written into zoning law for each new commercial and residential development, creating vast plains of parking lots within cities that were unappealing and inconvenient for pedestrians.
BambooSound@reddit
The disadvantages are obvious to but those were ignored and now everything is ugly
BlazinAzn38@reddit
I mean we also straight up bulldozed large portions of cities to build highways and stripped out rail lines and street cars. It was a deliberate choice
hitometootoo@reddit
Not like European cities didn't do this too. Highways around the world had this happen to them, some more, some less though.
BlazinAzn38@reddit
Sure I just hate when people go “it’s always been like this because more space” and it’s just objectively not true
Vast-Combination4046@reddit
Bostons city planning committee were literally cattle
SomethingClever70@reddit
This is especially true west of the Mississippi. California’s population really boomed because of the defense industry in the 1940s and 50s.
serpentjaguar@reddit
Well, that and the fact that California has always supported a huge population, even in pre-Columbian times.
flippythemaster@reddit
There’s also the whole “General Motors bought the rail companies deliberately to dismantle them so people would drive instead and were charged with conspiracy but only had to pay a slap-on-the-wrist fine for destroying infrastructure” thing too
kmoonster@reddit
I would say we re-fitted existing cities to accommodate more cars, like this: Reddit - https://external-preview.redd.it/denver-parking-lots-1970s-vs-today-v0-FEoN3IOm6NCsgFvY6BTT04YUFQ4vrMmlADDb-G3wMxQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=57a1c7afb7f5b2c676dc964f06a41d02cc596b95
That said, new build cities are what you describe. But even the existing cities (and towns!) were razed and retrofitted with very few exceptions.
throwawtphone@reddit
And well the automotive industry lobbying and colluding to push out public transit.
The General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to the convictions of General Motors (GM) and related companies that were involved in the monopolizing of the sale of buses and supplies to National City Lines (NCL) and subsidiaries, as well as to the allegations that the defendants conspired to own or control transit systems, in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. This suit created lingering suspicions that the defendants had in fact plotted to dismantle streetcar systems in many cities in the United States as an attempt to monopolize surface transportation.
Between 1938 and 1950, National City Lines and its subsidiaries, American City Lines and Pacific City Lines—with investment from GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California (through a subsidiary), Federal Engineering, Phillips Petroleum, and Mack Trucks—gained control of additional transit systems in about 25 cities.[a] Systems included St. Louis, Baltimore, Los Angeles, and Oakland. NCL often converted streetcars to bus operations in that period, although electric traction was preserved or expanded in some locations. Other systems, such as San Diego's, were converted by outgrowths of the City Lines. Most of the companies involved were convicted in 1949 of conspiracy to monopolize interstate commerce in the sale of buses, fuel, and supplies to NCL subsidiaries, but were acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the transit industry.
source
MaximumDerekCat@reddit
I should not have had to scroll this far to find this response!
throwawtphone@reddit
Decades ago I learned about this in high school econ class.
And then again in college.
AppointmentStatus845@reddit
Also- City planners in the US were all male (death or the tribe and rise of the single male earner) and prioritized the commuter rather than the entire family. You need a car to get to ANY store or service if you live in the suburbs.
Europe is old and they continued to build towns and cities where all basic necessities were easily accessible on foot.
kicker58@reddit
Not really true. LA had some of the best public transit in the world I the 20's and 30's. The answer is lobyiest. After WW2 we had a ton of money and factories used for the war. Those factories were than converted to produce cars. The lobiest than did a ton of propaganda on red lining and bulldozing those area for cars. So white flite mixed with good old greed and corruption made it happen.
kinkybiguynj4tv@reddit
It's lobbyists
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
How come China has highly developed public transport then?
Ddude147@reddit
Keep in mind that after WWII, much of Europe, including whole cities, was destroyed. Resources were scarce. Governments prioritized rebuilding existing rail networks because they were more resource-efficient than building thousands of miles of new highways and suburbs. Meanwhile, the USA emerged from WWII with a booming economy and a housing shortage. Enter the GI Bill and Eisenhower's Highway Act. Build the houses in the 'burbs, then highways. This jumpstarted car culture.
I sub lots of YouTubers who focus on old cars, many from the golden age of Detroit (late 1950s to early 1970s). Since automotive plants were converted to war use, this led to a huge, pent-up demand for new cars post-war. This is my opinion of course, but Los Angeles "invented" car culture. 1957 Bel-Air pulling up to the drive-in, ordering from a carhop. Drive-in movies. Drive-in restaurants (futuristic, neon-lit diners with plenty of parking). "Rebel Without a Cause" romanticized teen rebellion, with cars. Think convertibles, too. Los Angeles built the first freeway in the West. Cars meant autonomy. Freedom.
The fins and chrome of the 50s showcased style and tech. If you had the cash, you could push a button to raise and lower the top of your convertible. Air conditioning and power everything really hit in the late 50s. European cars at the time didn't offer factory a/c; they eventually added them aftermarket.
Gasoline was cheap in the USA. Gas taxes in Europe are sky-high, in addition to the "congestion pricing," which is catching on here now.
London measure emissions with sensors. Violators are fined heavily.
ElPadero@reddit
It’s not just that. The United States is rich. There is a reason why we don’t have trains connecting every major city for easy access. Years of lobbying by the automobile industry and industry plants in office have stunted public transport and convinced the American people to accept a car centric society.
merp_mcderp9459@reddit
Intercity rail specifically has more to do with lobbying from freight railroads (who don't want to share their tracks with passenger rail trains) and airlines (who would lose money from the competition with their short-haul flights)
Cicero912@reddit
See, this is also a bit wrong as well.
Becoming more car centric was a global phenomenon in the 50s and 60s, other nations just stopped and reversed certain aspects after that.
Meowmeowmeow31@reddit
This is generally true, but sometimes urbanist social media accounts share pre-1950s images of cities like Dallas, which I thought of as always being sprawling. It’s surprising how dense some of them were, easily walkable and with streetcars.
It’s a mixture of our development happening more recently AND us having the money post-WWII to go all-in on cars.
witchy12@reddit
Not true for a lot of cities. Multiple cases where entire sections of cities were destroyed to make room for highways. Just look at this Cincinnati example:
[)
Wyluli_Wolf@reddit
The interstate highway system replaced trains too.
Joel_feila@reddit
Spaceand wealth. If need to build hosing for say 1,000 people it's really costly to build up. If land is really cheap then its faster and cheaper to build out. Really cheap in the start of suburban development. Then the richness, we didn't need to worry about thw increase in living cost because of a spread out population
Affectionate-Lab2557@reddit
European countries urbanized over a longer time in a smaller area and the US urbanized fast in a larger area.
Key-Ad-1873@reddit
I mean you explained it in your question, European places are made with buildings smaller and closer together, American places are spread out. This also varies based on location. In my city, pretty much everything can be found within a 5-10 minute drive. If I was to go into the downtown area of the city, I could park and walk to anything in the downtown area in 15 minutes since it's so packed together. If you go outside the city limits a bit, stuff spreads more and it can take 10 or more minutes to reach the closest destinations, and if you go out to the country it's even worse.
Beneficial_Run9511@reddit
Distance. Size
sx3597@reddit
Well to start Europe is a continent while the USA is a country. Kind of difficult to make comparisons. If you'd like to compare a European country to the U.S. that would make a lot more sense. And the answers would definitely be size difference. lol
Chockfullofnutmeg@reddit
Wealth. Both in the 1920s and even more in the most Ww2 economy. Cheap gasoline
Maiace124@reddit
The Koch brothers for one. Lobbying from car companies are another.
Thin-Quiet-2283@reddit
Car, tire and gasoline lobbies.
Tom18558@reddit
Dead internet theory, right here
Heavy_Law9880@reddit
The sheer size of it and the fact that 80% of it was unoccupied when the car was invented
Smorgas-board@reddit
European cities and infrastructure had been built long before cars had been invented. So they had to make cities more walkable.
Also, the US is very big compared to European countries so cars became essential to be mobile in a lot of the US.
One_Recover_673@reddit
Henry Ford making the car accessible to the masses.
Add the freedom and independence mindset.
Sprinkle in the interstate highway system.
Add affordable and open land.
Unusual_Entrance7354@reddit
Republicans don’t believe in walkable cities. Check the actions of the current administration.
Atlas7993@reddit
Henry Ford
Jorost@reddit
In the 1950s the big American car companies bought up public transportation systems in major American cities and shut them down so that people needed cars.
thunder-bug-@reddit
Big
edparadox@reddit
Postwar suburban boom. Interstate highway system instead of railway system. Cheap fuel. US zoning policies. The lack of destruction during WWII, which made construction building outward of city centers.
blackhawk905@reddit
Don't forget that we were in an economic boom post WWII, WWII is what truly ended the great depression. Europe and Asia were devastated by WWII and were flat broke, Britain still had rationing until like 1956 or something insane like that.
MyUsername2459@reddit
We had a very comprehensive railway system, but passenger use of railways plummeted in the 1950's and 1960's as the Interstate Highway System became operational. By World War II, virtually every small town in the US had a rail station with passenger service.
Nobody wanted to use passenger railroads when Interstate Highways were far more convenient. As Interstates opened, passenger lines started disappearing rapidly from disuse.
The creation of Amtrak was entirely to prevent passenger rail service in the US from vanishing completely.
RhodyJim@reddit
The auto and oil industries intentionally bought and dismantled rail-based public transit in favor of cars, busses, and trucks. Then they lobbied for the federal highway system to be subsidized so they could make more profit.
General Motors streetcar conspiracy - Wikipedia
No_Walk_Town@reddit
I'm so glad you linked the wiki page, because if you actually read it, the streetcars failed due to lack of demand.
The GM "conspiracy" was them trying to consolidate a vertical supply chain to make buses profitable.
The funny thing is, vertical supply chains are super common in Japan - where group companies supply each other in a loop.
There are also (almost) no streetcars in Japan - that industry died here, too.
The mass transit we have in Japan? It remains profitable by forced use (salaries too low in the city to actually live in the city, corporations ban employees from commuting other ways), but also through group company profits - Japanese train companies own malls, schools, they're landlords.
Transit here isn't public, it's for-profit, privatized. It's grossly overcrowded inside the cities and completely inadequate outside the cities.
GM was trying to give you Japanese-style mass transit, but the courts didn't let them. The business practices necessary for it aren't legal in the US.
Additional fun fact? The expressway system here in Japan is also privatized, for profit, and almost 100% toll roads. So your transit options are essentially a choice between which corporation to pay for the privilege of going one town over.
tl:dr, more corporate control, not less, is how you get mass transit. GM almost did it.
icyDinosaur@reddit
Europe mostly relies on state or state-owned companies and also has very solid transit. So even if all you wrote is true, there still are at least two possible paths.
nametaken420@reddit
that was all incentivized and isnt a conspiracy. Its literally dictated from on high by the president himself as well as Congressional leadership. They saw the potential in the road system of Germany and saw the major flaws in Trains (easy combat targets). Everyone coming out of WW2 are all legit looking at WW2 potentials.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
I'm so glad you linked the wiki page, because if you actually read it, the streetcars failed due to lack of demand.
The GM "conspiracy" was them trying to consolidate a vertical supply chain to make buses profitable.
The funny thing is, vertical supply chains are super common in Japan - where group companies supply each other in a loop.
There are also (almost) no streetcars in Japan - that industry died here, too.
The mass transit we have in Japan? It remains profitable by forced use (salaries too low in the city to actually live in the city, corporations ban employees from commuting other ways), but also through group company profits - Japanese train companies own malls, schools, they're landlords.
Transit here isn't public, it's for-profit, privatized. It's grossly overcrowded inside the cities and completely inadequate outside the cities.
GM was trying to give you Japanese-style mass transit, but the courts didn't let them. The business practices necessary for it aren't legal in the US.
Additional fun fact? The expressway system here in Japan is also privatized, for profit, and almost 100% toll roads. So your transit options are essentially a choice between which corporation to pay for the privilege of going one town over.
tl:dr, more corporate control, not less, is how you get mass transit. GM almost did it.
CommitteeofMountains@reddit
Also, apperantly a lot of the railroads were startup scams.
WillDupage@reddit
My mom’s family were a perfect example of this. Grandparents got married in 1937, had Mom in 1938 and lived in a three-flat on the northwest side of Chicago, 4 doors down from Grandma’s parents’ house. Grandpa had a car but rarely used it because the streetcar was a couple blocks away and dropped him right in front of his job at Sears. Grandma didn’t drive at all. They took the streetcar and the EL everywhere. After the war, they started looking to buy a house. In 1952, they built a house in the suburbs because they could build for less than the cost of buying an existing house in the city. The streetcar lines were being removed and replaced with busses. My great-grandparents house was demolished to make way for the Kennedy Expressway, and they moved near my grandparents. Grandpa transferred to a new suburban store. He had to drive because there was no streetcar or bus lines between suburbs. Grandma luckily could work from home, but did eventually have to learn to drive and they had 2 cars by 1957.
Dear-Ad1618@reddit
This. Veterans had VA loans and many people dreamed of getting out of the city. Suburbs were built in response to the demand. Public transportation was expensive to run in these relatively sparsely populated areas.
At the same time many cities were getting rid of much of their public transit systems in favor of more room for cars. Urban flight shifted the entire demographic of cities and left America dependent on automobiles.
There is also the scale of our geography which is vast.
Omgkimwtf@reddit
And, if I recall correctly, the automotive industry (or maybe the oil industry; maybe both?) lobbied against railway systems.
Difficult_Ad_1923@reddit
It's huge. I have had a lot of jobs I had to drive 30 or 45 minutes to get to every morning. I know plenty of people who drive over an hour to get to work. Also at some point most people outside of major cities got cars and no one wanted to pay for the infrastructure for public transportation everywhere.
I live in the southeast. It's fairly rural. You have small towns of a few thousand people living in one and the next is 10-20 miles away with just farmland in between. Most people who live in one have to drive to a larger town for work. No one is going to want their taxes to go up enough to get buses that can handle that kind of area. Much less trains. Most of us already have cars and drive. So the general idea is why am I being punished by having my taxes raised when it will only really affect people who don't have cars yet? It's short sighted but we have never been shy about screwing over the next generation to make things easier for ourselves.
InviteForsaken2857@reddit
Political power of wealthy men (Henry Ford, Harvey Firestone)who lobbied to make mass transit difficult in the west in order to sell more tires and cars.
Justicedrummer@reddit
Probably most of the US being developed around the time when cars were becoming popular… if you look at the east coast it’s more euro style and walkable than the rest of the USA. I live in Nebraska and really can’t walk anywhere easily.
trench_welfare@reddit
You can see the technological advancement in the distance between fully developed cities as you move west across the country. The area west of the Appalachian mountains and east of the Mississippi you can see how the increase in what a "days ride" has meant for urban development. It grows as you get further west / further forward in time.
LeGrandePoobah@reddit
The scale of the U.S. is just as big a factor. We will be driving from Fort Dodge, IA to Sidney, NE. It will be about 8.5 hours. And, yes, part of that is Iowa, and part is Nebraska, but that is a long distance to travel, and it’s only two parts of two states. If the OP was discussing just cities, I whole heartedly agree with your statement. If we are looking at the entire U.S., we would need soooo much rail line to connect all the towns in the country. It’s simply far faster and cheaper to install a highway than rail, upfront.
katlian@reddit
It wasn't just that cars were popular. Auto makers, oil companies, and tire companies spent massive amounts of money advertising, buying politicians, and dismantling public transit like street cars. Cars were marketed as the ultimate freedom and we still can't escape this mindset. They invented the term "jay walking" to get people off the streets and out of the way of cars. They convinced the white middle class that they needed to move to car-centric, white-only suburbs to escape from minorities. They convinced governments from city to federal levels that all transportation tax dollars should be spent on roads and highways and zoning that benefited cars.
And they were doing this during the post-war boom when people in the US had money to buy new houses and cars. Europe after the war was dealing with destroyed cities and depressed economies. They didn't have money to spend on massive highways and cars for everyone. By the time Europe had more money, people were starting to push back against the danger of making everything around cars (including vehicle related deaths and pollution).
Gloomy-Ask-9437@reddit
Well, the Northeast. Most of the East Coast south of Baltimore is not walkable at all.
BioDriver@reddit
True for the most part. Atlanta and Richmond, however….
_Silent_Android_@reddit
The Louisiana Purchase and westward expansion.
Quick-Ad-1181@reddit
I see many people saying it's cause US developed after cars were a thing. This is a part of it yes, but in many places already existing public infrastructure was literally taken down to build parking lots and highways. Case in point the San Francisco trolley system. Lobbying by the car and oil industry was definitely a big contributor to lack of public transportation in major cities at least. For rural regions I agree that private vehicles are somewhat necessary. Here's a good video with more evidence https://youtu.be/oOttvpjJvAo
Smeaglete@reddit
Space.
Oomlotte99@reddit
Timing
JimNtexas@reddit
Size of the country was a huge factor..
RemarkableRiver9961@reddit
“Where stores and homes all mesh rather close in proximity to one another”
You answered your own question my guy.
neverdoneneverready@reddit
Ike built the interstate highway system.
TheOneNamedHarley@reddit
Lobbying probably
Defiant_Ingenuity_55@reddit
All that people have said is true. But we travel daily at much farther distances than many in Europe. We are huge!
suboptimus_maximus@reddit
Top-down central planning and socialism for cars, drivers and the auto industry. The United States banned walkable neighborhoods in most of the country while pursuing federal lending policies that subsidized racially-segregated, car-dependent suburbs for white families. The federal government also bulldozed mast major US city centers during the construction of the Interstate system.
So in our case, it was a product of government mandates and regulation that enforced car dependency as government policy at the expense of individual liberty.
husky_whisperer@reddit
The fact that we’re a large portion of one of the seven continents on this planet and that we value individual mobility. Nobody wants to wait on the schedule of a government bus
thomsenite256@reddit
80% of America was developed after cars, maybe 20% of Europe was
LoganLikesYourMom@reddit
Everything is farther apart.
Whybaby16154@reddit
President Eisenhower (1950’s) started a grand plan for an interstate highway system of connecting highways between states and cities. He felt it was a part of National Security for efficient travel across the country. Once we had highways - the “car culture” was in full swing.
Leather-Sky8583@reddit
Europe has been settled by more urban populations for centuries longer than the United States is even existed. The distance between villages and cities is comparatively tiny compared to the United States, where small rural community is can be widely spaced and urban centers, even more so. So traveling time is going to be shorter on average in Europe than it is in the United States.
It also does not help that railroads were not more encouraged and instead were regulated out of existence in the United States. The small village I grew up in called Richmondville in upstate New York, had a passenger station and a freight station on the Delaware & Hudson railroad. It was last functional in the 1950s and now there’s absolutely no trace of it today. All of the passenger service along that branch line had been removed and there are hundreds of abandoned passenger and freight stations scattered across the community.
I’m not sure if it was just regulations, or the development of air travel, and the interstate system, but the bus and train options that were once very common pre-World War II are almost nonexistent today.
I think heavy investment in transportation infrastructure in the United States would solve an immense number of our economic issues. It’s just another example of the US being well behind Europe, developmentally.
Piney1943@reddit
I have lived on this planet for 83 years and 2 days and live in the most densely populated state in America. 🇺🇸 I could not and would not live without a car.🚙 without freedom life isn’t worth living.
CustomerSecure9417@reddit
Brewer and more distance to cover.
RealWalkingbeard@reddit
MsWeed4Now@reddit
It huge!
I lived in Europe, and it was always hilarious when my European friends would conceptualize the US in the same way as their country. A few friend were planning a 5 day trip to visit, and wanted to see stuff across the US. They couldn’t fathom that 5 days wasn’t enough to drive coast to coast and see everything from Boston to LA.
Famous-Hunt-6461@reddit
I think a lot of Europeans don’t understand space/time. It would take over 5 days to go coast-to-coast and that’s if you stop for gas only.
MsWeed4Now@reddit
That’s what I told them.
GOTaSMALL1@reddit
I motorcycle tour around the SW a lot and for some reason there are hordes of Germans that come here and rent Harley’s to ride Route 66.
I met a bunch of them on year on their Grand Canyon stop. The pair next stop was Oatman/Laughlin. A couple of them asked me if they had enough time to leave the group that night in Laughlin, ride to Anaheim, go to Disneyland for the day and then meet back up with their tour near Barstow in two days.
These are people that already rode from fucking St Louis to the Grand Canyon. They should know how big it is!!
Ms-Metal@reddit
Lol. I didn't know this was a thing, I live in the southwest and have traveled a pretty extensively and I've run into new Germans on motorcycles LOL had no idea that this was a popular thing. Also met an entire group of Russians on the top of a Colorado pass.
nametaken420@reddit
yeah, the germany fascination with the cowboy wild wild west thing is something else entirely. They even read the newspapers from texas like they live there.
Full-Associate-2822@reddit
Yes! Many of the people I know from Europe don't have a good grasp on just how large the US is. The state I live in isn't even in the top 20 as far as square miles, but it's still larger in square mileage than like 30 different European countries.
brUn3tt3grl@reddit
Roads were recognized from the wars as a fast way for military vehicles to travel, so that and a push from the car industry. Interestingly, many city inhabitants didn’t want to get rid of their streetcars in favor of roads, and unfortunately many modern expressways demolished lower class and marginalized communities for the land to pave the roadway.
LavenderPearlTea@reddit
Density. In my 20s I lived/worked in Boston, New York City, Washington DC, and LA. The first three have public transportation and higher population density. I didn’t need a car until I got to LA, which is very spread out.
FrozeItOff@reddit
Go to Google earth and zoom in on ANY part of the US not covered by a big city, then try and picture trying to effectively create a hub-and spoke method for mass transit amongst all the small communities and open space. That is why trains died here. We'll, that and massive lobbying from the auto and bus industries.
RecognitionNew3122@reddit
Drive thru everything. One hand washes the other. Ergo more cars.
Altruistic_Error_832@reddit
European cities, by and large, are older than American cities and so had much of their street layouts in place before cars were a thing. You can still see this in some of the older cities on the East Coast of the US, like Boston, where parts of the city are just obviously not laid-out with cars in mind.
We also gutted our public transportation options throughout the 1900's, at the behest of Ford, GM, and Chrysler specifically so that there wouldn't be viable alternatives to their cars.
TehTJ13@reddit
Corporate lobbying and racism.
Aggravating-Dig783@reddit
- Size and life in suburbs, owning home on sizable land. It is impossible to get public transport to every suburb development.
- Family size. US still has birth rate over 2. We don't walk to nearby store, we shop at wholesale like Costco. Can't transport week forth of family supplies in public transport.
- No one wants to sit in a train for days. US has 6 hour flight from Seattle to Boston, almost 7 from LA to Boston or Seattle to Miami. Europe is like 2-2:30 hours across.
voltairesalias@reddit
The Interstate Highway Act. Prior to then the US did have a higher rate of car ownership, but it wasn't dramatically higher. After 1956 the US and Europe diverged significantly with the US building a comprehensive national highway system ,and Europe investing more in mass public transit. A lot of that had to do with Europe already having higher population densities and older cities which were more difficult to plan automobiles around, but most of it had to do with America building the interstate highways (which is still the large public works project in history).
LilJonny2cookies@reddit
Space. Many Europeans do not realize just.how big the US is and how folls will live out in the countryside miles and miles away from someone else.
Ok-Ad8998@reddit
Because more of Europe's infrastucture was built out before the arrival of the car.
DissentChanter@reddit
USA is "young", automobiles were invented around the time we had a population boom and expansion. Then, we got more reliant on our automobiles and used the railways less and I am sure somewhere along the line Auto lobbyists pushed against more modern public transportation options.
1MrE@reddit
I think, Space.
Europe was pretty established (homes/roads/infrastructure) by the time cars came about.
USA was still a baby. Still growing. Easy to remove a few trees to make a road vs removing homes and centuries old buildings.
Skatingraccoon@reddit
There was a conspiracy by the car companies to buy up and dismantle train systems in urban environments to "encourage" people to buy more cars.
Plus the other stuff people pointed out but that's an important, overlooked aspect in US history.
PowerfulFunny5@reddit
Henry Ford invented the assembly line. One of his goals was to build a car that his employees could afford. That helped give America a head start on car culture for many.
kinkybiguynj4tv@reddit
Henry Ford did NOT invent the assembly line. Ransom E. Olds was mass producing cars on assembly lines long before Ford.
ericbythebay@reddit
Was Olds in Europe?
kinkybiguynj4tv@reddit
Oldsmobile sold cars all over.
sgtm7@reddit
Ransom E. Olds created the first "stationary" assembly line for the "Curved Dash Oldsmobile" in 1901. Henry Ford, however, perfected the "moving" assembly line using conveyor belts.
Wemest@reddit
Geography, and cheap gas.
Junior-Reflection-43@reddit
CornPop30330@reddit
If you look at US history we started out with rail, and many comments here confirm that. But then oil companies bought out the rail companies and dismantled them, causing the switch from rail to road.
That_70s_chick@reddit
Europe was built before cars, US was built for cars.
Wink527@reddit
Oil companies and the myth of “rugged individualism.”
Famous-Hunt-6461@reddit
Watch the movie Roger Rabbit. There is a secondary plot that explains why this happened. In a nutshell. The auto industry bought up all the public transit rail lines and shut them down. Then started a PR campaign enticing people to buy cars while bulldozing communities to build interstates. I blame Henry Ford for a lot of this.
ember428@reddit
So, I live 5 miles from any shopping point. Any. If I need milk, I need to either drive my car, or get a cow.
weaverlorelei@reddit
I would like to hear from the rural populations in Europe and elsewhere. All of these conversations seem to revolve around the Urban/suburban populations. Do folks who live out of the cities, live on farms totally surrounded by open space and other farms tend to be more automobile dependent? Certainly there is no access to subways at every street corner, or for that matter, there aren't even any street corners.
ZozicGaming@reddit
You would be correct the public transit utopia people on social media love to talk about pretty much only applies to capitals and major cities. The rest of Europe is just as if not more car centric than in the US.
TallWalmartCovington@reddit
I've seen videos of France that just look like places I've seen here in West Tennessee and other places I've been to like Kentucky
weaverlorelei@reddit
I tend to make the trek into town every other week, for feed, supplies, and food that we don't raise. Takes all day, try to work in appointments on the same trip. Other than that, my truck doesn't move- no galavanting to restaurants or theaters.
TallWalmartCovington@reddit
People even assume rural areas here are good for walking. I'd have a job if they were, but the only walkable place is a dollar general that I have to wait until next January to even consider working at because they don't hire minors
BarbieDeluxee@reddit
I live in Germany, in a small village. My village has a train connection, and you can shop in the next town. I only drive with Car. How else would I get my family's groceries home for a week? I don't want to have to go out every day for just three things like so many people do, and the many small shops for so many people stress me out.
If I took the train, it would take me several hours, whereas I can do it in an hour. So it's no different here, except that many people live in the city and never leave it, so they often don't understand that it's often like this in Europe too.
Germany is (unfortunately) so densely populated that almost everything is right next to each other. Yes, there are fields in between, but most places are barely more than 2-3 minutes apart by car (at least in southern Bavaria). Many places have no connection to bus or train, or only run 1-2 times a day. Yes, we are also dependent on cars.
No_Walk_Town@reddit
I used to live in a fishing village in Japan. I currently live in a Tokyo suburb. My company's R&D and factory are two hours north of the city in semi-rural areas.
Mass transit is mostly here in Tokyo as a corporate cattle car to get office workers in and out of the city. You don't get paid enough to live in the city, so your company gives you money to give to the train company that packs you into overcrowded trains that are completely inadequate for the areas they serve.
Outside the city? The train might take you to the next town over, but then what? You still need a car to get from the station to your factory. It creates a lot of grey areas where a car is an absolute necessity but everything is built around the train.
There are a lot of sidewalks on surface highways here, which is nice, I guess? But why are you walking down the highway? The side streets don't have sidewalks or shoulders, so you still have to just walk in the street. Japan's not "walkable," people just do what they have to.
Car ownership in Japan is over one per household. So for every car-free family in the city, there's at least one in the suburbs with two. High fees for owning cars don't reduce ownership - they're just a regressive tax, because outside the city, you need a car. People just have to pay the fees and deal with it. (It's the lack of space around houses that limits car ownership - nowhere to put it.)
Those car fees increase on older cars, so it's also just a government kick-back to the mechanics doing the checks and a way to force demand for new cars - why pay the outrageous fees on your 5-year-old car when you can just buy a new one? Those "worthless" cars get sold overseas, so the car dealers get to trade your worthless car in for pennies then export it for full price.
The transit here is not public, it's privatized. The expressways? Also privatized, for profit, and almost 100% toll roads. So just driving to the next town can cost you a ton of money in tolls. Trains aren't just organically successful here?m, a LOT of effort is put into funneling people into them, and overcrowded trains fucking suck, actually.
weaverlorelei@reddit
Our daughter taught English in Suwa for 2 yrs. There was a train, but not what could be considered an alternative to private vehicles. As you said, one station and no further transport available. Now she lives in NZ and "profits" from the mandated sale of 7 yr or older Japanese cars shipped to NZ for sale, after the taxes in Japan more or less mandate updating to the new models. How do people imagine that the government is for the people?
TallWalmartCovington@reddit
I'm not seeing many answers about how Europe wasn't the most unified before. There was lots of war, so it was harder to treat it like a huge unified landmass now like they somewhat do now where they cooperate on a lot of stuff
Ok_Citron_2368@reddit
It changed post WW2. After we “won” the war the car was the future. Railroad tracks were ripped up or allowed to decay as highways were built everywhere including through city centers.
AStarkWinterfell@reddit
History, geography, population density, etc.
Feel free to try to create a great public transit network in rural Alaska or Wyoming.
Fluffy-Mine-6659@reddit
Eisenhower. He decided to build a national network of freeways instead of railways. The car companies benefitted a lot
Content-Dealers@reddit
I live 45 minutes from Walmart if I drive 70MPH.
rancidmilkmonkey@reddit
The oil and automobile industries have spent billions buying off politicians. The irony was always the fools saying" follow the money" every time a scientist pointed out data supporting climate change. Every scientist publishing papers denying climate change or fossil fuels impact invariably worked for or were funded by the oil industry. The city of Tampa had a functional and profitable street car downtown when I was a little kid in the late 70s. It was purchased by a major automotive manufacturer, then closed down a year later.
oneislandgirl@reddit
Suburbs and lack of good public transit systems.
MrVeazey@reddit
You guys need to watch the documentary "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
The car, tire, and oil companies bought up the municipal streetcar lines and some bus lines in the larger cities following the end of World War II and dismantled them to force people to buy cars. They bought off politicians to do it and now our entire country, with the exception of Manhattan, is built primarily for cars and secondarily for humans.
This is what happens when you put profit before everything else.
sgtm7@reddit
Secondarily for humans? I don't know who drives the cars where live, but every where I have lived, it is humans who are driving the cars.
MrVeazey@reddit
But what's more convenient for the human: two giant parking lots and four lanes each way between your grocery store and your pharmacy or walking half a block? In the first scenario, huge amounts of land are eaten up by infrastructure for cars and, as a result, you have to use your car to get from one place to another even though they're technically within walking distance.
I could walk from my house to pick up my prescriptions at the drug store but there's only about forty feet of sidewalk, totally disconnected from any other, between here and there. I'd have to walk through people's front yards to avoid the cars, wait at a five-way intersection where the traffic signals do not account for pedestrians, and then do it all again. So, instead, I spend gas to drive over there, sit in the drive-thru line for ten minutes (because the corporate owner doesn't want to pay for enough staff), and then drive home or wherever else I need to go. I pay more in fuel, tires, brakes, and engine wear because we have built our cities this way and we built our cities this way because the companies that profit from these expenses tore up the mass transit in most of the country.
That's what I mean when I say we prioritize cars over people.
No-Lunch4249@reddit
Absolutely fantastic levels of post-WW2 prosperity meant having a car was reasonable for a typical family. Plus very much intentional choices by Federal, State, and Local governments which encouraged suburbanization through financing policies and land use laws.
icyDinosaur@reddit
Thank you! All the top comments seem to treat this as some law of nature when it really is the result of political choices and economic developments. Which, if you ask me, is a much more interesting way to think of this question.
jackfaire@reddit
Car manufacturers lobbied against infrastructure for public transportation
321Couple2023@reddit
Its bigness.
snajk138@reddit
Several things. The US cities was mostly built after the car came, so they were built with that in mind. But also corporate greed obviously, car companies bought up a lot of public transport and shut it down or made it so bad that no one would want to use it. They have also been very successful in planting the idea that public transport is for poor people and that a car means freedom.
winteriscoming9099@reddit
It’s giant, and had less development and density prior to the invention of cars relative to Europe.
Dazzling-Climate-318@reddit
The U.S. government as part of its Civil Defense plan decided to implement dispersion as a survival mechanism early in the Cold War. A National Defense Highway System was built, the U.S. Interstate System. Additional Defense Highways were built as well as some existing highways were improved. Subsidies and tax breaks were provided for industrial development in suburban and rural places, as well as a variety of programs to sponsor home building in those areas. Additional programs included the provision of grants for the building of Hospitals, Colleges and Universities and even parks and Libraries away from City Centers. And some places also had Federally subsidized evacuation mechanisms put in place such as command centers for buses and automatic traffic control device control mechanisms in case of evacuation.
The plan was not done in secret; there were public hearings on it in Congress. It was discussed in newspapers and magazines as well as in books at the time.
It was based in part on the analysis of the effects of Strategic Bombing in Europe and Japan during WW2. Basically dispersed industry with a dispersed population was able to largely maintain production even after suffering significant damage.
Also the U.S. Army’s experience using trucks rather than trains to support military operations appears to have been included in the planning. Rail Centers in cities were disrupted by bombing, trucks did and were expected to continue to in future conflicts would provide for a flexible and survivable alternative to trains.
In retrospect it seems crazy, but it actually was done. Sprawl was not an accident, it was done on purpose. This policy appears to have been largely abandoned in the U.S. after the fall of the USSR and the decline in the level of threat. While much infrastructure that had been abandoned has not been rebuilt, some has. Most notably the subsidies that relocated industry and people to small towns and rural parts of the U.S. have dried up and one can find many small towns semi abandoned now as the industries which were located there have closed while many cities or places near cities have noted an increase in both housing and commercial, including industrial redevelopment.
Today few talk about this chapter of American History, addressing it might well result in a clamor for restitution for some populations as well as a demand for transitional funds for others who now find their towns dying and job opportunities decreasing.
Please note that America already had a car culture prior to these programs for a variety of reasons; the dispersion initiative built on it and acted as an accelerant for it while it starved and killed off the continuation of large scale Passenger Rail and sponsored the development of a significant air transport system, something else which was subsidized by the U.S. Government as it was thought to be of benefit in case of a Nuclear War.
LetterheadClassic306@reddit
post ww2 was huge. we had the interstate system built in the 50s plus cheap gas and suburbs exploding. europe had to rebuild cities that were already dense with old train networks. also car loans became super easy to get here. zoning laws in the us separated homes from stores which made walking impossible. you basically needed a car by the 60s unless you lived in a few old cities.
IlexAquifolia@reddit
The US is bigger geographically and much of its development happened after the advent of trains and cars, whereas Europe was heavily settled for centuries before motorized transport was invented.
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
Europe is actually larger geographically
jvc1011@reddit
But no one European country is, and it’s more densely populated on average. A lot more densely populated.
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
yes but the question ins comparing the USA and Europe
jvc1011@reddit
And population density has exactly zero to do with the amount of empty space?
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
what does population density have to do with it?
jvc1011@reddit
With transportation?
Are you serious?
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
sure i'm serious, why is it relevant?
jvc1011@reddit
Wow.
Well. It’s not affordable or practical to have extensive train service over large stretches of empty terrain. Linking 700 towns with populations of 5,000 people or fewer doesn’t even allow a railway to pay for itself, plus it is a slower and less flexible way to travel.
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
on slower, we know that's not true, but back to population density: How come Russia which is less densely populated that the USA has better public transport? Should the USA admire Russia for achieving something that they cannot?
Mr_BillyB@reddit
It most certainly can be true. It's a question of how close the stations are to where you're going and how often the trains run vs. how close you can park to where you're going and what traffic is like.
I live in an exurb/satellite city north of Atlanta. I'd love to be able to take a train when I need to go to the airport or whatever, but the Bears MARTA station is a 45-minute drive from my house. I'm over halfway to the airport at that point, so I might add well drive the whole way. Plus MARTA trains don't run all the time, so if I have an early morning departure or late night arrival, I'm stranded until they start running.
You're seriously asking how Communist Russia was able to develop a rail system?
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
so yes, i agree with you public transport is slow in countries without developed public transport 🙄
jvc1011@reddit
Russia doesn’t have better public transport everywhere. Likewise, the US has perfectly nice public transportation in some areas and very little in others.
Russia is also the most car-dependent country in Europe per 2025 numbers.
MeatInteresting1090@reddit
Russia has better public transport in general. Car dependence could also be correct. If we talk about general transport the USA is closest to India
Derwin0@reddit
Europes is several small countries though, whereas the US is a single country.
Kellykeli@reddit
People forget that the U.S. used to have some of the largest streetcar networks in the world. The U.S. was just as walkable as Europe was at the time.
Car companies paid streetcar companies to tear up thousands of miles of public transit and replaced them with buses. Buses that then had their funding slashed and were relegated to the shadier parts of town.
Laws like minimum parking spaces were enacted, while in other parts of the world the laws would place a limit on the maximum amount of parking available.
Similar stories happened for about a century until you get to where we are today. Even if we build public transit with unlimited funding they wouldn’t work in most U.S. cities because of the low density.
Melekai_17@reddit
The short answer is Henry Ford killed the railroad industry to sell Americans on cars. Awful person and awful consequences for our entire societal infrastructure.
No-You5550@reddit
No sidewalks. You walk in the street with the cars. Want to bike no lanes for that either.
FunkyViking6@reddit
Heckin huge dude…. You gotta travel in the majority of places to get anywhere unless you are some Olympic runner….
sgtm7@reddit
Because it is better.
Ok_Organization_7350@reddit
New Jersey invented what they called "Garden Cities" which we now call suburbs. These suburbs became popular. The concept is that each family house has it own large yard. So for all the space these yards take up, they end up far away from the city center. This is too far to walk, and these suburbs are too spread out for city busses to work.
gator_mckluskie@reddit
have you been to the us? it’s fucking huge
swagestan@reddit
So is Russia and China... They are still less car-centric than the US
sgtm7@reddit
You are asking about tolitarian former communist countries?
Derwin0@reddit
China has a crap load of cars. I was in Kunshan 2 years ago and you needed a car to go everywhere.
Kingflamingohogwarts@reddit
Russia and China's population is too poor. But this is changing in China with their super low cost EVs.
Although their cities are already densely built, so it will be interesting to see what happens.
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
Beijing was going in a direction of being pretty car-centric (with larger and larger ring roads surrounding the city), but at some point they finally figured out that people driving cars en masse simply doesn't work in urban areas.
Life-Principle-3771@reddit
This isn't really true, many many many many many people still drive hours every day in and out of Bejing. Gridlock is getting better but it's still probably worse than any American city outside of Los Angeles.
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
Don't mean to suggest the city's fixed all of its problems, and Beijing still has to deal with more sprawl than average. But as a whole they've definitely shifted from focusing on highways to faster, more efficient modes like HSR and urban metro systems.
4Q69freak@reddit
They are also Communist and former Communist where the citizens are very poor and cars were always for the elite party members.
personthatiam2@reddit
Both have nearly all of their population concentrated in a much smaller geographic area. Eastern China and Western Russia are almost completely empty.
The Northeast Corridor is only like 15-20% of the U.S population. (Dc to Boston.)
The U.S. is much more evenly distributed geographically. Density maps are a click away.
Beginning-Olive-3745@reddit
Modern China is very car-centric, not sure about Russia.
Dallas is a great example. It began to really grow along side white flight and the interstate system post WWII and is a sprawling mess now. If you look at pictures and videos pre WWII, you would find it indistinguishable from any other large, urban city in the world.
The action starts around 4 minutes in https://youtu.be/fO9J91V_ETE?si=JQFXUFwDDqonggrQ
Many of the truly urban cities of the world were much larger and well established at that time, especially in Europe, while Dallas was basically the size of it's current downtown and immediate surroundings
99UsernamesTaken@reddit
Canada is just as car-centric as the US, if not worse
Pizzagoessplat@reddit
Smaller than Canada
AndreaTwerk@reddit
Its not actually.
(Though size has nothing to do with this)
According-Union382@reddit
Have you been to Canada lol. Just about as car centric especially in the prairies.
PhilTheThrill1808@reddit
And? The comment you’re replying to literally doesn’t mention Canada, so what relevance does your comment hold?
Mattp55@reddit
Cmon this is such a smart ass redditor response. You know the vast majority of the Canadian population is living in a small stretch of land by the US border.
Canada is also more car centric than most of the rest of the world
Pernicious_Possum@reddit
Area
Cow_Man32@reddit
We have like 20 states bigger than all European countries and another 20 the same size. Also a combination of our geography and how the cities were built makes it hard. A railroad that goes from Colorado to California would need like 4 kilometers of elevation change in 800+ kilometers distance and they are only one state apart, also in that elevation change is like 4 separate mountain ranges
Emeah824@reddit
America is huge
joker_1173@reddit
The US is owned by lobbyists - in this case, the automotive lobby, they went hard on a car centric society after WW2. That led the US congress, as well as the states, to build highways/freeways/wide streets and they also promoted the suburban sprawl that still make walking almost impossible.
christine-bitg@reddit
Some of it is when the cities were originally developed. There is, however, an additional basis here where I live.
I live in a large city in Texas. Much of the year, the weather here is hot and humid.
All of our cars here have air conditioning, and we use it. Not of our bicycles or walking paths do.
SabresBills69@reddit
look at how things were when cars came out. you had s8mevsmall citues that wer concentrated and had trolleys.
car was invented here and everyone wanted one. when prices came down to where it was affordable to the masses you got a car culture to develop.post WW 2 triggered the idea of building interstate highway system as a national defense thing. USA is the size of much of non Russia Europe.
ii do wonder in retrospect they instead had a tail hub and spoke system where you made 16 airports connected by planes and the regional high speed rail to airports.
if U
fighter_pil0t@reddit
Our cities were largely built in the 50s-70s after cars were common place. The few older cities actually have public transportation (Boston, NYC, DC, Chicago).
seatownquilt-N-plant@reddit
If you are familiar with European nations, the country of Germany and the state of Montana are of equal size.
Montana has 1% of the population level of Germany. We have so much more space compared to old European countries.
NecessaryLight2815@reddit
Because our country is enormous. And our families and friends tend to be more spread out. Besides I adore my car. It’s safe, quiet, reliable, rides like silk, and makes the hour drive through downtown Atlanta bearable.
Wicket2024@reddit
Much younger country where a lot of the cities were developed after the car and much larger areas to cover. There is great public transportation in the Northeast and some Midwest cities where the cities are older...Boston, New York, Chicago. Other large cities developed after...Houston, Las Angeles...and have crappy public transit. And adding high speed rail between cities is too costly because how spread out we are. l
bren3669@reddit
space
Derminac@reddit
Probably the fact that the USA is the reason mostly the entire world relies on vehicles now. Also after WWII, the US invested in the “Interstate Highway System.”
traumahawk88@reddit
Europe is about the size of Texas and alaska combined.
We have 48 other states.
Our cities are farther apart. Our goods come from farther. Our cities were much younger when cars were invented. We had much more land for people to move farther from cities.
Ok-Reference9022@reddit
I wouldn't be surprised if wwii had something to do with it. They were often starting over from scratch, we're able to learn from past mistakes also.
Grouchy_Tower_1615@reddit
The automobile companies also bought up a lot of the mass transportation companies and let them die out intentionally as well many cities even small Midwest towns would have had a rail system.
chesbay7@reddit
I grew up in semi-rural suburbia. Cars were necessary. Moved to the city later in life but worked outside the city.No public transportation available to work. I wouldn't have taken it anyway. I want to go to and leave work when I want to not have to wait for a train or the subway, etc.
HailingCasuals@reddit
Building outward is cheap, building upward is expensive, and America has a lot of land.
MocsFan123@reddit
The US is much more rural. I drove 40 miles to work this morning - all rural 2 lane roads, went through one incorporated town with five red lights, no public transportation of any kind buses, trains, taxis, etc.
1000thusername@reddit
There is/was a lot of open space… so people used it
Relevant-Emu5782@reddit
It's huge size
BossDjGamer@reddit
Piss poor mass transit
On_my_last_spoon@reddit
Robert Moses. And racism.
Robert Moses was the City Planner for NYC in the 1950s to 70s. He purposefully planned highways to cut through neighborhoods to destroy them. He also designed them with low overpasses to prevent busses from being able to take poor brown people to white towns and areas.
His ideas spread around the country. Just as Civil Rights were taking hold, white flight hit its peak. And preventing access to the white suburbs was a way to have plausible segregation.
ElijahNSRose@reddit
Road long.
Gas cheap.
Cities small.
Car factory good.
StanUrbanBikeRider@reddit
Lobbying of government officials by the fossil fuel and automotive industries.
Total_Diet_5274@reddit
General Motors pushed hard for buses to replace street cars ( light rail). Once those street cars were gone it became more convenient to own a personal vehicle rather than rely on those buses. I’m old and this is what I remember from the Chicago area anyway.
Aclearly_obscure1@reddit
Short answer: Greed and bamboozling of the masses source The film Who Framed framed Roger Rabbit did an excellent job illustrating the part in the article about streetcars.
mltrout715@reddit
Crappy mass transit.
ThePickleConnoisseur@reddit
The west coast as we know it was really just San Francisco. Most of the development like in LA started after WW2 when people had lots of money and the interstates were built during the depression
Jabjab345@reddit
I think it was basically bad luck in terms of being wealthy when cars were really taking off. Most of the urban renewal than tore down cities in favor of car infrastructure happened post WW2, the US used to have cities that looked a lot more European in their density and transit, but we're converted to what we have now in favor of cars that were newly affordable for most Americans. Look up pictures of Saint Louis, Cincinnati and you can see they were basically destroyed by urban renewal programs for freeways.
Europe however, was comparably poor in the aftermath of WW2 and didn't restructure their cities for car development. Cars were a luxury most people couldn't afford.
Here's a post about old Cincinnati before urban renewal and after: https://www.reddit.com/r/Urbanism/s/e9rhqAq6eo
Here's Kansas City: https://www.reddit.com/r/notjustbikes/s/acp4J3PfT1
blackhorse15A@reddit
I think the answer is USA has a much lower population density. Less public transportation means you have to be more dependent on cars.
I noticed there seems to be a cutoff of population in another post:
AutomotiveAutist@reddit
The USA used to be more European, like folks said about the east coast, but something else that happened was even in our early days when we were horses, buggies, and even railroads, there was a monopoly early in the 20th century, or more like a conspiracy.
Cities throughout the United States had something of a tram line system, as far back as the 1830's. By the early part of the 20th century, General Motors, Firestone, and Standard Oil banded together to buy the rail lines, rip them out, and sell buses to the cities (GM of course building the buses, Firestone provided rubber, and you know what Standard Oil brought to the table). So even before World War II and the interstate system, it was starting.
Reduak@reddit
Cheap gas, urban sprawl and wide open spaces
ssinff@reddit
Racism
OhThrowed@reddit
My dude. Just the lower 48 states are larger in area then your entire continent.
matwithonet13@reddit
I’m from the US, but wouldn’t your argument better for trains vs cars?
ericbythebay@reddit
The U.S. does have more rail than Europe.
PilesOfRavioli@reddit
Passenger rail?
ericbythebay@reddit
Why limit the conversation to passenger rail? People move things with cars and trucks.
PilesOfRavioli@reddit
Because passenger rail is the relevant portion of “rail” when we’re discussing the car-centrism of the American citizenry in their lives and movements and commutes, yes?
Freight rail is only relevant as a barrier to the average citizen’s movement, whether they are on foot or in a car or on a bus…
sysnickm@reddit
Trains aren't efficient for sparsely populated locations like suburbs.
Derwin0@reddit
Not really.
But what they ignore is that the US is a single country whereas Europe is several small countries.
nametaken420@reddit
geography and eisenhower. The interstate system developed because of the autobahn in Germany. We saw how Germany was able to mobilize everything they wanted in any direction from anywhere due to their autobahn. Eisenhower did the same for the USA and furthermore incentivized it with Ford and GM. Now we have the most exhaustive road network on earth and our rail system is pretty much a joke outside of a few key areas where population density is so high cars can't really be considered practical.
DooficusIdjit@reddit
Basic nutshell? Credit. The home mortgage for the working class schlub.
People falsely credit the post war economic boom to wartime industrial capacity, but the reality is that the real boom was a financial sector renaissance driven by the newly invented Levittowns popping up outside every major city in the country. Suburbs.
Essentially, Americans needed to travel much farther every day that most working class Europeans.
To top that off, the sheer volume of freshly minted equity allowed automakers to redefine their businesses as financial institutions rather than simple manufacturers. Before that, auto financing was more of a cost of being a manufacturer. After, being a manufacturer was the cost of being a financier.
Rizzle_Razzle@reddit
Post war the automotive industry lobbied hard for it.
SecretRecipe@reddit
Age. Keep in mind that when cars were invented the USA was still like 90% wilderness. The vast majority of our development came after the invention of cars. There isn't a single city in the USA that looks anything like it did 100 years ago. There are massive swaths of europe where 100 years ago is basically recent history in terms of urban planning.
Odd-Significance-17@reddit
big oil and motor companies made sure development of public transportation wouldnt happen
Sledgehammer925@reddit
If the country you currently live in was slightly bigger than all of Europe, you’d probably need a car too.
Unlikely_Impress_712@reddit
Lobbyists.
You can pretty much use that answer for any questions about why the US does stupid things.
oldfarmjoy@reddit
America is HUGE!!!
StrikingDeparture432@reddit
Geography for one. Distance between towns, Esperanza in the West.
In the East it's more concentrated and urban so there's more public transportation.
I imagine it's hard for Europeans to imagine the vastness of the deserts and mountains.
Where in the UK is it 100 miles to a gas station ?
MadDadROX@reddit
We had trains in Michigan, Detroit to flint, Detroit to Port Huron. The auto industry bought them and shut them down. Plus the USA is HUGE! It take 2 days to drive across, Portland Maine, to LA California 46hrs.
MM_in_MN@reddit
The explosive suburban growth, post WWII.
Cars existed for the average population.
Cities were designed for cars. And ‘escaping the city’ was a sign of wealth.
European cities didn’t have that same type of growth. Cities had been built up around a central core. And they just sort of built another ring around the edge of town. Expanded the existing train and transit system.
Heykurat@reddit
We're much bigger and our streets are not tiny.
anneofgraygardens@reddit
I got a little book you should read if you really want to know. It's called The Power Broker, by Robert Caro. You should consider picking it up!
Pale_Space_4144@reddit
The US is a huge country with a lot of wide open spaces to traverse. You can live in dense cities and not drive often, but most suburbs and residential areas won't have all of the things you need within walking or bicycle distance. Not to mention a means of earning a living. Rural areas like where I live might require 5 to 20 mile distances to civilization. I have a friend in Nebraska that tells me it's a 45 mile drive to the nearest store with more than basic and overpriced items.
ghost_suburbia@reddit
Big business always has had an influence on the US. As cars became more of a thing, AAA (American Automobile Association) lobbied against railroads. Big money in politics led to a focus on building more roads and less railroad investment. We live with that now. Locally, different cities and towns made different decisions for getting around, but connecting the country mostly by road and truck was from a series of political decisions fueled by lobby money in the early 20th century.
RhinoPillMan@reddit
Lots of land, much of the country is desolate, the push to suburbs when the economy bounced back after WWII, an initial abundance of oil. There are many reasons, this has been gone over by scholars and others ad nauseam.
Danktizzle@reddit
It’s desolate because we killed the people living there
noseleaptilbklyn@reddit
Automobile and oil/gas lobbyists
wizzard419@reddit
Because much of it was built with the car formfactor. While the east coast pre-dated the automobile, much of that was rebuilt over time and adapted. As you move west, you would see (during the boomer era) cities re-imagined away from urban to suburban. More land, more house, and all of this needed more space, making it more necessary to drive to work/the market.
Aquarius_K@reddit
Where I live if you don't have a car your shopping options are limited to the dollar general store or delivery. Job options are limited to the dollar store or gas station without further education (school and hospital jobs). I don't think it's fair that car insurance and registration taxes are mandatory in places like that when you can't function in society without a car. If you can't pay to maintain a car then you can't work and if you can't work they won't even give you medicaid or snap. And if you are working car insurance and ability to get to work are not factored in.
Ajk337@reddit
The US was developed after the invention of the car, and the car was the 'hot item' at the time
Europe was developed when people walked / rode horses
Teri-k@reddit
Due to the physical size of the US cities are often really sprawling and towns are far apart. Many part of the country are still quite rural. You have to have a car to get around there, the population isn't dense enough to make public transportation work. So, car ownership is already high, and all those folks have cars and have to drive to the bigger towns and cities, which then need parking.
If you've got room for all that parking in the cities you now don't have as much room for transportation. So everything begins to shift toward more cars, less public transportation, in general. There are exceptions, like LA and NYC, of course. And it gets complicated because zoning and gov't policies became factors, too.
hrdbeinggreen@reddit
Space!
ancientastronaut2@reddit
Well, every time we propose plans for high speed rail, for example, it gets shot down.
I think a lot of it is politics because some people want to keep us as dependent on oil as they can.
Sea_Pause2360@reddit
Robert Moses
HerrDrAngst@reddit
More space and less restrictions on land development
SideEmbarrassed1611@reddit
Do you need to drive from Portugal to France? That's like driving from California to Colorado.
It's a massive continent.
Georgia is the size of Ireland and Texas is slightly larger than France.
The size and scale of the US is massive.
kidthorazine@reddit
Suburbanization mostly, it mostly happened after WWII due to the massive economic boom and the "white flight" phenomenon that led to white people to leave cities for newly developed suburbs and commuter towns. Also oil and gas companies started aggressively lobbying against public transportation infrastructure in favor of building more highways.
PhilArt_of_Andoria@reddit
I feel like white flight and the land use policy surrounding it (including single use zoning) had a much bigger part to play in our car dependent culture than most people recognize.
Tibbiegal@reddit
Greater distances.
Rays-R-Us@reddit
Distance
PghSubie@reddit
The continental US is much larger and more spread out than most Europeans grasp
r2k398@reddit
Sheer size.
MuchDevelopment7084@reddit
Distance. We are a hell of a lot larger than most Europeans realize. That's the main reason.
Substantial-Peak6624@reddit
The US is huge
Cinisajoy2@reddit
Open spaces.
Illustrious_Code_347@reddit
Vast distances. I know Europe has areas that have vast distances too... but in comparison it is not so much. I think two reasons are the following:
(a) Europe kind of built up organically over centuries and centuries where there is now this tightly knit patchwork of towns and cities. Not so for America. America was "settled" sporadically in different areas, often very far apart from each other, like the Pilgrims landing in Massachusetts and other Brits landing in Virginia, because the explicit goal of the colonists was to find new unused land, not just build on top of something that was already there. They often wanted to get away from people, not move toward them. And then when America gained independence, this settler spirit did not go away, and people looked to the frontier and went way out west to settle places... The end result is we have a very big country with major population centers that are very far apart.
(b) America is not a very urban country. It's the inverse of China, where the vast majority of the population lives in major cities — in America, the vast majority of the population lives in suburban areas. We only have 3 cities with more than a million people, despite having the 3rd biggest population on earth. China and India, the two countries larger than us, both have 50-150 cities with more than 1 million people, depending on how you define "city." So again, people have to travel farther distances. It would be impractical to have a network of trains going everywhere... Many people would live so far away from the nearest train station that they would have to drive to get to it anyway, and then take a cab when they get off just to get to the place they are going, which also is not within walking distance of the train station, so might as well just have a car and drive.
ImperfectTapestry@reddit
Commenters are really under-representing how aggressive lobbying for a car-dependent lifestyle was. The term "jaywalker" is a made up word that car manufacturers created to slander pedestrians and make walking illegal. There was tons of corporate money spent on making America car-centric.
PomPomMom93@reddit
Because the US is gigantic, and 90% farmland or unoccupied land.
AnybodySeeMyKeys@reddit
The population density of Europe lends itself to the kind of economies of scale that make rail much more feasible.
For example, the US has a population density of 36 people per square kilometer. Meanwhile, in Europe it's roughly 108. And in the UK it's 275. What's more, the US has more than twice the land area. It's just more far flung.
So rail only works in the most densely-populated portions of the US. And, otherwise, you either drive it or fly it.
bryku@reddit
The US was already cranking out cars before WW2, as it was a quick adopter of the assembly line. That being said, after WW2 the US was quite wealthy and soldiers were coming home with money, so the cars explosion was real.
Since cars were popular, many cities started focusing on auto infrastructure. Which was pretty easy as cities expanded outward since there was a lot of land. Keep in mind, pretty much everything you see in the US was built within the last 200 years. It went from 2 million to 350 million in population in that time.
dwfmba@reddit
size, vastness of space
3Oh3FunTime@reddit
Some guy: Hey. So let’s build a new city where it’s 72 and sunny every day!
Another guy: oh man! Think about how great it will be to be out and about! Walking, bicycling, jump on a tram, sit outside on the edge of the street for dinner, we could even build houses and resorts along the beach! What a paradise this will be!
The guy in charge: the whole thing will be paved over and given to cars. Even the beachfront will be a road. You literally have to cross the highway from your resort to get to the beach. For those of you that are thinking about walking, forget it. The buildings will be built against the sidewalk, and the only way to the front door will be by car on the backside. There won’t be enough roads though. You’ll be stuck in your car going about as fast as you can walk, only angrier. We’re gonna take this paradise and turn it into a living suburban hellscape. And the gas will cost far more than anywhere else in the air quality will be so bad you can’t breathe it.
And now you have Los Angeles!
rohan_rat@reddit
To add to what everyone else has said: It so big.
LongOrganization7838@reddit
Europe was well developed before cars became a thing, most of the U.S. was developed during and after
Affectionate-Ant8@reddit
The vastness & relative lack of density of the US compared to Europe makes travel by car much easier.
The_Hausi@reddit
I'm Canadian and once you get 100+ kms from the American border, the country is really vast and there isn't that many towns. You can drive for hours between towns and there's frequently signs reminding you how far the next gas station is so that you make it.
Germany has a population of 88 million, there's probably a land area the size of Germany in Canada that has under 88,000 people, if not 8,800.
The thing is, it's not empty and people still live it's just that the next town is two hours down the road.
kmoonster@reddit
The people who held sway in the urban planning and home building industries in the 1940s/50s intentionally did a few things:
- encouraged suburban development to either have no sidewalks, or to only have "internal" sidewalks (between houses), with no sidewalk between the homes being built and the nearby businesses
- all private lots were wall-to-wall (fence to fence), meaning no cut-through trails between properties for pedestrians; the means if you look out the window and see a neighbor's house you need to visit over on the next street, there is no foot path between any of the homes between you and them, you have to walk all the way around the entire cluster of houses and you have to walk in the street
- most new homes being built, were built away from the city, and it was [details] something that has come to be known as "exclusionary zoning". All residential properties are put together, all businesses are put together in a different place, no mix/match even for smaller businesses. Most home-based businesses were against the law.
- the car was viewed / treated as the savior, all other forms of transportation were now low-class or the unnecessary baggage of "old fashioned times"
- most cities passed laws that sidewalks are the responsibility of each property owner. A developer or homebuilder COULD build a sidewalk, but did not have to. And if they did, it was on them to maintain it. Some did, some did not. Here is one example of one such where homes built 70 years ago did (and did not) build: Document (1920×1080), the city is still offering to build on the missing gaps even all this time later.
- streets and intersections are designed for what is called "LOS" or "Level of Service", this method of measuring assumes that everyone will have (and use) a car for all trips, no matter how short, and streets are designed with that in mind. This is why the crosswalk in my example below may only allow for thirty-seconds to cross the highway, just as one example. The only goal that mattered if you were a traffic engineer in the 1960s - 2000s was "How many cars can clear this intersection per hour, and per day?"
=
Here is an example of a house at the end of a street, literally has a trail across the street. Applebee's Grill + Bar to 3000 Glen Oak Ave N, Clearwater, FL 33759 - Google Maps
The trail goes through a park, which is nice! But the restaurants and shops are only 700 meters away, right? Is there a trail over that way, too? Or some quiet streets?
No, the trail doesn't connect to the housing blocks between you and the restaurants/shops, so you can't cut through a nearby development to get there. You have to walk away from the destination, wind through the neighborhood, then you are out on the "main" road, but that main road is six traffic lanes (plus turn lanes) and very fast traffic. You have to cross several side streets, only one with a stoplight/signal. There do appear to be sidewalks the entire way, but that is very unusual. Usually sidewalks start, stop, and switch sides with no obvious reason.
To get to the restaurant I pinned, you have to cross that highway. In this instance you could wind through your neighborhood and follow "this" side of the highway to cross at the light, but there are seven lanes at that point plus a center median; and the center median does not extend to the crosswalk (meaning there is no place to "hide" in the middle if the light changes while you are crossing). You just have to run, sometimes literally. God forbid you have a three-year-old or a grandmother with a cane, or you're in a wheelchair with limited speed. If the stoplight/signal is only 30 seconds long, you better be averaging only three seconds per lane.
By the time you get there, you've walked 1.5km for a 700 meter distance and risked your life to cross the highway.
Speeds on that road are posted at 45mph (72km), though traffic usually moves faster than that.
And there are places with even longer routes for shorter distances, a 2:1 ratio is pretty average. Many do not have a sidewalk along the highway (this one is unusual in that regard), or a sidewalk only on one side. In others the signal/stoplights are very far apart (note that this is the only one in that entire distance). If you wanted to go to this event center instead, which is closer to your house than the restaurant? You either cross the highway with no traffic signal, or you walk even farther than you did to get to the restaurant despite it being much closer to you (so you can use either the signal you did for the restaurant walk, or the pedestrian bridge at the park just south of there). Kapok Special Events to 3000 Glen Oak Ave N, Clearwater, FL 33759 - Google Maps
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Like I said, the people doing the planning and politics of "how to design" with cars in mind absolutely had rubbish ideas about racism, classism, and "car is status and it's the only way!", and they created these sorts of spaces that require a car unless you have a suicide wish as a way to "filter" for the sorts of people and attitudes they themselves had.
There were some protests at the time, similar to what would happen in the Netherlands 20 years later, but the timing in the course of history was on the side of the developers at that point and this was really sort of the "first" iteration of building for just the car. The protestors lost, and by the time it was realized what the downstream consequences were, no one was wanting to spend the billions to completely flatten and then re-build the millions of square kilometers (miles) of new development.
Here is a comparison picture of a downtown in the 1970s v. today, you can see how much land had to be flattened in order to put in the parking. (Downtown was not mostly empty in the 1910s, but I don't have that image on hand): Reddit - https://external-preview.redd.it/denver-parking-lots-1970s-vs-today-v0-FEoN3IOm6NCsgFvY6BTT04YUFQ4vrMmlADDb-G3wMxQ.jpg?auto=webp&s=57a1c7afb7f5b2c676dc964f06a41d02cc596b95
And that last picture also points to changes being made in the current era -- traffic engineers and city planners are starting to retrofit a lot of streets with bus-only lanes, adding trains, adding bike/walk options (such as in the restaurant example, with sidewalks along the highway), adding cut-through trails that I mentioned, etc. but it's going to take years more to completely undo the damage we did in just those thirty or forty years following WWII.
Sad-Engineering9397@reddit
It’s kinda crazy how wrong most of these answers are. The development of what we now know as American car-centric infrastructure primarily began with Robert Moses and the automobile lobby in the late 40s, and was very intimately tied to white supremacy.
patricide1st@reddit
America is huge. Massive, even. Sure, there are countries with more landmass but America is different in that most of that land is habitable, which tends to spread people out.
Myself, I live in the woods about 20 miles outside the limits of a decent sized town of about 40,000. If I didn't have a car I wouldn't be able to live as easily out here where it is peaceful.
Snoo_16677@reddit
Price of gas/petrol. We have oil here in the US. Europe doesn't.
Also, many people in the US treat their cars as more of a facet of our personal freedom than the freedoms in the Bill of Rights.
myOEburner@reddit
Wide open spaces and long distances between inhabited areas. Greater overall productivity leading to more disposable income. High value on Independence.
Tamihera@reddit
I live in a small town in Northern Virginia. In 1890, the train station at the end of my road ran five fast trains to DC every morning. You could get there in an hour. We also got three mail deliveries from the city every day, including the morning newspapers from the city. That rail line is now a cycle path, and it will take you an hour and forty-five minutes to get to DC via the toll roads—and the Washington Post doesn’t deliver out here now.
A lot of areas HAD the passenger rail infrastructure. They just didn’t prioritize it. We have friends living in a small town outside Cleveland, and their old passenger rail is also a leisure cycle path. A lot of choices were made at one point to make the US so car-dependent.
lopendvuur@reddit
Scrolling down, yours seems to be the only answer that doesn't quote all the usual tropes. Plenty of beautiful American towns were partially leveled to make way for highroads, and most small towns in the middle of nowhere seem to have a railroad for freight that could still transport people. Large distances don't mean cars are faster. Car centrism is a choice.
Small-Olive-7960@reddit
Its the cost factor. Between inflation and ridership going down, a lot of routes were too unprofitable to keep going with government assistance.
SnooRadishes7189@reddit
The other thing is how fast cars were apodoted in the U.S.. Cars became affordable to the middle class(somone not rich, but with a good job in the 1920ies. Even the great depression could not stop the rise in automoble ownership(it only slowed it). The Ford Model T built from 1908-1927 was the low cost vechile that created a market for lower cost cars and got the country on wheels.
The_Motherlord@reddit
Vast distances and lack of infrastructure. Capitalism. Corporatism. Lack of a socialist mindset.
Grand-Inspection2303@reddit
The EU has about 3 times the population density of the USA 108 people per square km vs. 36 people per square km. Id guess that's a big part of it.
meowmix778@reddit
It big
AdHopeful3801@reddit
Europe had been building pedestrian-centric towns and villages for, roughly, 2,000 years before the Europeans arrived in the New World. Pre-automobile US cities from Portland Maine down through Savannah, Georgia are designed on the same scale.
But to put the magnitude of difference in the front, in 1900, at the dawn of the automobile era, there were 76 million people in the US - the population since has grown to 4.5 times that. The population of Europe was about 475 million then, and has less than doubled to 740 million today.
Frigoris13@reddit
Europe is just older. It had over a thousand years of walking trails and road development before trains and cars.
USA built a trans-continental railroad that was finished in 1869. The USA highway system was established in 1926 (Happy Centennial birthday!). We barely had towns next to the tracks before people could drive themselves to where they needed to be. Instead of waiting for the train, you could go get what you needed all by yourself. Instead of laying track for 100 people out in the middle of nowhere, you could just send a truck to deliver. It was cheaper and more versatile, which was needed in the upcoming struggles of the 1930s and 40s. It just kind of went from there with the help of evil corporations sabotaging everything except automobile transportation.
Quix66@reddit
Size.
Budsygus@reddit
The USA is huge and people here are used to being spread out. Lower population density through 99% of the country's geography means public transport is less viable, which means cars. I don't want my family to live in a small townhouse within biking or bus distance to my work, so I commute in order to live in a house with a yard that I can afford.
Suburb culture has been ingrained in the US for a long, long time. The size of the country and the Wild West urge to spread out has been around even longer.
The12th_secret_spice@reddit
Eisenhower saw the benefits of Hitler’s autobahn for military purposes so he created the interstate system. Fallout was a larger car culture, paired with the feeling of freedom to go anywhere (road trips are big in the US)
BoBoBearDev@reddit
Roads and free parking lots.
UpbeatPhilosophySJ@reddit
Euro was poor after WW2 and the nations are smaller and the populations don’t migrate so much.
The USA is wide open with no travel restrictions and people move to where the jobs are. They have no desire to live in crowded cities.
MembershipScary1737@reddit
We were newer and closer to the invention of cars.
PickleManAtl@reddit
I wish I could remember the name of the video / documentary that I watched a few years back. I think it might have been on YouTube (?) or PBS or something like that. But it was very interesting about the transition from train to car/fuel in the US.
I mean decades ago, train travel was more popular in the US and there were more routes. In this story they talked about how a company had come up with a monorail design, and they wanted to build a FREE monorail system in Los Angeles. They were going to pay for the entire system, and all LA had to do was sit back and let them, and would use fares to pay for it. And it was at this time that the oil and gas industries stepped up and somehow convinced the leaders of LA and California the diesel buses would be much better to use. So the offer was declined, and a bus system was put in place.
But it was more than just that area, this show talked about how the oil and gas industry from that point onward pretty much stepped in with their lawyers and lobbyists and whatever, and squashed any new rail or public transit train type projects before they could ever get off the ground, and how they also played a role in dismantling the existing rail system a lot in the US to be replaced by bus systems. And it has stuck since then.
Maybe somebody who has some time on their hands can dig that show up or a link to it but it was pretty interesting when I watched it and I have too much going on to dig around. Amazing to think though that if the city and state leaders had given the oil and gas industry the finger back then instead of allowing them to be bribed or convinced to use buses, how different the country might look now regarding transit.
Equivalent-Pin-4759@reddit
Post WW2 Washington ran with the idea “What’s good for General Motors is good for the country.” That coupled with Eisenhower’s admiration of the Autobahn created an interstate system that drove us here.
wangus_angus@reddit
We used to have a vibrant streetcar system, but it was deliberately decimated by auto companies in favor of a car- and bus-centric system, which ultimately led to urban and suburban sprawl. Certainly there are other factors, but like a lot of things here, those factors were, at a minimum, helped along by corporate interests.
therealdrewder@reddit
Because Henry Ford made the car affordable for the everyman. Also we weren't poor like Europe.
No_Entertainment1931@reddit
Scale. There was a time when I lived in Nebraska and had to drive 50 each way miles to reach a grocery store.
misagale@reddit
The USA is huge.
No_Importance_750@reddit
Europe is older then the US. Most European cities were built before cars were invented so the roads aren’t as wide and built for cars. A lot of US cities were built after cars were a thing so the roads are wider and more car centric.
Competitive-Bus1816@reddit
Unregulated Crony Capitalism
sophisticated_alpaca@reddit
Immediately after the war, the United States had both a housing crisis (housing construction had slowed in the 30s due to the depression and the 40s due to the war) and a lot of poor quality older urban housing at that point was in severe need of modernization. The United States also happened to have its industrial capacity intact and running at peak efficiency. Even before the war, the large majority of American households already owned a car, since the US already had a geographically dispersed population and pioneered the production of economy cars before Europe did. In Europe, most families did not have cars, even in the richest and most industrialized European countries of the time, like the Netherlands and Britain. American cities were not destroyed by war, and there was no need to rebuild what was lost before expanding outward.
Thus, the cheapest way to solve the post-war housing crisis was not the reconstruction of dense urban centers and transit-accessible suburbs, as occurred in Europe immediately after the war, but the extremely rapid construction of wood stick-framed suburban houses on the ample farmland surrounding major American cities, which remained accessible by car. This extended a limited model of suburban development that had been available to the upper middle classes pre-war to large swaths of the (White) population thanks to federally-subsidized mortgages for WWII veterans. Of course, more than a million Black Americans who had served during the war were eligible for subsidized loans, but excluded from many of the newly built suburbs where their White counterparts were buying homes. The government feared that the economy would slip back into recession after the collapse of massive wartime demand for manufactured goods (and it briefly did) so they used massive Keynesian subsidy programs to stimulate consumer spending in structurally critical sectors of the economy like housing and transportation. This is also why the American welfare state (such as it is) and financial infrastructure is heavily oriented towards homeownership.
A lot of places online, you’ll hear a parsimonious just-so story about how General Motors and tire manufacturers paid off governments to remove public transit, and that’s why the US became car-centric. There is a kernel of truth to this—GM wanted to sell more buses, but the transition from streetcars to buses was already underway by the 1930s, and diesel buses were seen as the natural evolution, not a step back. The real story has much more to do with the US’s early adoption of the automobile (most of this is true of Canada as well—I am both American and Canadian, and Canada is only marginally less car-centric overall due to a greater concentration of our population in major urban areas; though this is a more recent change), which meant that America’s postwar response to a housing shortage decades in the making was rapid and massive suburban development enabled by already-widespread car ownership among American households. This is really a story about how postwar economic circumstances in North America pushed the US and Canada to use our intact productive capacity to address a qualitatively different crisis from that faced by a largely destroyed Europe.
WhichWitch9402@reddit
Most likely being a mostly agrarian society outside of major cities our towns are really spread out. It pretty much stated that way until mid-20th century.
As population exploded and new cities popped up they were planned with automobiles in mind. Larger plots of land for single family homes because we’ve got a lot of land.
Older cities - Philly, Boston, in particular, oof. You can tell streets were horse and wagon paths.
ButterscotchHour4211@reddit
US is primarily run by lobbyists. Every thriving industry invest a lot of money in lobbying. US has huge oil reserves and oil lobby is very strong. They won't let mass transit like trains, buses take off. It's not going to happen in US unless the oil reserves are near depletion.
Additional_Low8050@reddit
Lack of trains
lyralady@reddit
Henry T Ford's antisemitic ass
kingkalanishane@reddit
Do you know how big the US is?
GreenBeanTM@reddit
Our country was founded closer to the invention of cars than Europe was by a couple thousand years
jwwetz@reddit
The metropolitan area where I live consists of 10 counties and is over 2500 square miles in area. There are 7 European countries that're smaller than that. We have about half our states population and about 9,412 miles of roadway in that area... stretched out, that would go coast to coast across the USA 3 times.
Somebody drove around all 4 sides of my state about 16 years ago. They did 900 miles in 15 hours at an average of 95 miles per hour.
So, yeah, there's plenty of reasons why America is pretty car-centric.
Cant-think-of-a-nam@reddit
People not wanting to live on top of eachother. I moved from a city where i didnt really need a car to the suburbs where i absolutely need one because mass transit is basically non existent and theres no sidewalks so not even safe to walk
tetrasodium@reddit
Florida might be the clearest case because of how some absolutely massive hurricanes started a rebuilding effort just before that sunk spending powered it through enough of the the great depression the great depression for the Eisenhower era wpa programs stabilized things. There are some great videos covering that bit of Florida history but really it boils down to the fact that the US built the national interstate highway system to connect major cities national parks and ports before cars took off.ill paste in some stuff from Google about it below more on Europe.
As to Europe, their own recent report about how impossible it would be for them to move tanks to their Eastern border without like 6 months of road & bridge work to strengthen and widen roads/bridges if Russia invaded Europe shows that they never really bothered to build a highway network/system despite a handful of highways.
Back to FL:
Florida survived the devastating 1935 Labor Day hurricane and the Great Depression through federal New Deal relief, adaptation to frequent disasters, and economic diversification. The state received aid to rebuild infrastructure like the Overseas Railroad, while tourism, citrus, and emerging paper industries began a slow, painful recovery, notes the Florida Memory project.
Key factors in "surviving" the 1935 hurricane and its aftermath included:
New Deal Relief Efforts: Federal programs like the Works Progress Administration (WPA) and Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) were critical. They rebuilt the Overseas Railroad (which was destroyed), created state parks, and provided jobs.
Rebuilding the Economy: Wealthy investors, such as Alfred Du Pont, bought struggling banks and spurred the economy through the paper industry.
Tourism and Agriculture: Despite the economic hardship, tourism continued during winter months, and the citrus industry, along with new industrial efforts, provided necessary income.
Adaptation to Disasters: Following the 1926 Miami Hurricane, the 1928 Okeechobee Hurricane, and the 1935 Labor Day hurricane, Florida was forced to develop better, albeit still developing, infrastructure and stricter building practices.
Improved Forecasting: While early warnings for the 1935 storm were insufficient, the disaster prompted better meteorological monitoring, led by forecaster Grady Norton, to improve future safety.
Wikipedia +4
The 1935 hurricane did not kill the state but marked a somber, violent end to the Florida land boom and forced the area toward a more resilient, albeit slower, economic recovery, say the Hurricanes: Science and Society.
freddbare@reddit
Size matters
IntelligentAge211@reddit
Where I live is 30 minutes by car from everything. The US had lots of vacant land that made expansion the necesity of the car obvious. Europe was far more established.
blipsman@reddit
The big change came post WWII, when large numbers of suburban developments were built to house returning soldiers and their new families. Interstates were built to connect the suburbs with city centers so commuters could easiler get to work, and also city to city.
Racist housing policy lured middle class whites out to the suburbs, while minorities were forced to remain in the inner city due to restricting housing policies.
With white residents relocated, "urban renewal" means clearing wide swaths of the cities to build highways and parking, while combination of lowered tax base and heavy lobbying from auto makers cut funding for public transit.
The new suburban developments were built with an auto focus from the get go. Compare that to many European cities that are 100's of years old, and were built well before cars were a part of infrastructure needing to be accommodated.
NetFu@reddit
Honestly, I think the primary reason is the vast expanse known as the United States.
Travel across the over 3000 miles that is our country and tell me it would make sense to take train and foot to go to all the places you can go. It simply wouldn't and creating the system to do it wouldn't make sense.
I remember working in the UK and getting to use a real mass transit system, their rail. It was amazing all the places I could go, and I had blisters on my feet in less than a week.
Even if American transit were that efficient, we don't live the same way, everything is spread out and not planned with mass transit in mind, in general. Cities grow without regard for mass transit, making it less useful. American mass transit is horrible to use by comparison. At best, in the places that most use it, it's just OK.
In America, you aspire to not be so poor that you have to use mass transit. In the UK, for comparison, you aspire to not need to use a car, because of the high cost of annual registration (as I've been told by coworkers).
I had younger coworkers who were not happy to be the only ones in the office to have a car, because they inevitably drove people places when needed. The only others who had cars were top execs who could afford the taxes. And often they were company cars, so everything was paid for by the company.
WiWook@reddit
Too many comments miss one of the biggest factors - the active destruction of urban transit systems. In a number of Midwest cities, there were well developed inter-urban and urban mass transit systems. Some private, others public, and others a combination. Many of these were "sold". These buyers were often tied to developers, oil companies, and the automotive industry. It was included their interest to destroy these systems.
SE Wisconsin used to be tied together with a massive inter-urban rail network that extened almost to the Illinois border. The City of Milwaukee had a great light rail system. It was all literally torn up or paved over. The Sewer Socialist's legacy dismantled practically overnight.
Gloomy-Ask-9437@reddit
Because a lot of people work up to an hour drive away from where they live. The US is huge in comparison to most European countries.
panic_bread@reddit
The AAA lobby. If you ever want to know why things in the U.S. are different, the answer is pretty much always greed and unchecked corporate power.
Frosty_Employment171@reddit
Size, Henry Ford and his Ford Motor Company.
holiestcannoly@reddit
It's bigger.
TopperMadeline@reddit
The rise of interstate highways in the 1950s.
ratchetcoutoure@reddit
It was the result of geography, policy choices, economics, and culture all reinforcing each other over decades. Europe took a different path because those factors played out differently. USA is huge compared to most European countries, with cities spread far apart and lots of land available. That made it easier to design cities around cars. In contrast, many European cities, particularly historic ones, have narrow, winding roads designed long before cars existed, often following ancient Roman or medieval layouts, so walking and transit stayed practical.
After World War II, the U.S. experienced massive suburban growth, and suburbs require cars because everything is spread out; schools, stores, jobs. since U.S. zoning laws often separate between schools, offices, & homes. So you have to drive between them. European cities tend to mix these uses, so you can walk to work, a bakery, school, or café, all in the same zone. Also, The U.S. heavily invested in roads, especially with the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956. Meanwhile, Europe rebuilt after WWII with stronger emphasis on rail and public transit. And then, the U.S. historically had cheaper gasoline, this made car ownership affordable and culturally dominant. Europe taxed fuel more heavily, discouraging excessive driving.
Last but not least, culturally, in the U.S., cars became tied to adulthood, it's symbolic to independence and freedom as an adult. It's a huge thing. Europe never leaned into that identity as strongly, partly because alternatives (trains, buses, bikes) remained convenient.
jub-jub-bird@reddit
Lots of expansion and development occurring after the invention of the car. The development of the interstate highway system inspired by the German Autobahn and cars being the more convenient option for more of the time for more people.
There's also a lot of more specific policy decisions* which taken together resulted in the US rail system prioritizing freight traffic over passenger service.... The USA actually still has one of the most extensive and comprehensive rail networks in the world it's just used almost exclusively for freight rather than passengers.
* Some of the policies were actually intended to promote or preserve passenger rail service which backfired badly. For example the state and local government frequently prevented passenger rail companies from cutting services on routes that were losing money. . The end result was a series of passenger rail compnay bankruptcies that ended passenger services on ALL routes served by those companies, even the ones that were still well travelled and profitable.
Even before those bankruptcies the policies likely tended to make those companies more hesitant to expand into potentially profitable new rouges since if the expanded service didn't work out as well as hoped they were likely to be stuck having to operate it at a loss.
calcato@reddit
Europe has much better public transportation. It is much easier to get around in a European city or suburb without a car.
Plus:
The automobile industry and oil industry in the U.S. wanted people to buy cars, so they spent much of the last 8 decades lobbying against alternative transportation projects.
Lonely_Sale9707@reddit
Until 1960 LA had one of the world’s best transit systems. Until GM bid and won the maintenance contract, then simply began dismantling it.
ChirrBirry@reddit
We regularly travel distances that would seem absurd to a European to destinations that are uneconomical to connect to with any other form of transportation.
My great aunt lives 175mi away in a town of 1,500 people. There aren’t even any state maintained highways that go to her town let alone buses and trains. We go down there roughly every two weeks to check on her and spend time together. That’s more distance than Amsterdam to Cologne, a little less than Berlin to Prague.
shammy_dammy@reddit
We're spread out, with large distances between us.
whatsupgrizzlyadams@reddit
Because the USA is huge.
I'm 30 minutes from the nearest big city.
ericbythebay@reddit
I’m 40 minutes from the nearest small city.
Loud_Inspector_9782@reddit
Car manufacturing took off as cities grew. Also the availability of cheap gasoline.
Mysterious-Mango4936@reddit
It’s bigger.
HoldMyWong@reddit
Wealth is part of it. Owning a car is a luxury. The U.S. was significantly wealthier than Europe, following WW2
Public transit is nice when I’m in vacation, but I do NOT want to sit on a bus or tram to get to work every day. I don’t want to walk through the heat and snow
CaramelMacchiatoPlzz@reddit
The comments here are reinforcing of American Stereotypes.
The size of the country is NOT the or a reason why America is a car centric culture. Most Americans do no regularly drive across their state. This is kind of travel is an outlier and our European friends manage to travel such distances without a call. I love the Euro rail. Yes there are Americans who live in disperse rural communities where there exists the need of a car. Those communities also exist in Europe and they don't tip the culture towards cars either. It has nothing to do with these two factors everyone keeps bringing up.
The US is car centric because we made it painful to travel normal everyday distances with our bad urban design. I don't mean its bad for pedestrians and public transit only. Ever with our mode design slanted for a car, it is still awful to drive in America as well. We build crappy cities.
Let's not forget auto and oil companies killing transit and tipping America toward this urban planning philosophy. Yes, even racism plays a role too. The gift that keeps on giving in the US.
comrade_zerox@reddit
Lots of space and a powerful auto industry with political influence
FirstPersonWinner@reddit
The US is huge, and a lot of major development and city building was done after the invention of cars. It was also easier to connect the many disparate cities and towns across the country.
Lucky_otter_she_her@reddit
being at the wrong place at the wrong time basically... way more of our stuff was built in the parts of the 20th century when car companies could lobby for erban planning that forces people to by their products, also car-suberb adoption was faster cuz our country wasn't trashed in WW2, so it was too hard to simply undo when the 1970s oil crisis hit
ericbythebay@reddit
The invention of mass production in the United States and a need to travel distances.
QuasiLibertarian@reddit
The US has "homestead farming", where farmers lived on the property they farmed. Houses were not centrally located, except in larger towns and villages. This lead to sparse, spread out populations. American homes, even for non-farmers, were built on plots of land large enough for a big garden, maybe chickens, etc. Even our Midwest cities like Detroit were built to have single homes on large lots (which spread everything out.
The EU model mostly had farmers live in the village, packed together, and then farm a small plot of land outside of the village. It's much easier to have public transportation if everyone is clustered together.
thingsbetw1xt@reddit
Car lobbies
MovieAshamed4140@reddit
First and foremost the size of our country. European countries are the size of an average U.S. state. Some of our larger states would swallow a great portion of western Europe. Please understand it takes at thge very minimum by train 2.5 days to cross America.
Better-Credit6701@reddit
One state, Texas, it would be a 1,400 mile trip from east state line to the west state line.
The old saying in the US, 200 years is a long time but 200 miles is a short distance but in Europe, 200 years is a short time period and 200 (or 320k) would be a long distance.
The cities are also much more spread out. For me, it's a 200+ mile trip to anything with a population over 500k.
Plus, we like our cars
Derwin0@reddit
And that one State is bigger than every country in Europe except for Russia and Turkey.
Yellow_Apple_1971@reddit
You can thank oil and automobile lobbyists and defunding of rail.
BeastyBaiter@reddit
Wealth. Cars really picked up post ww2 when europe was in ruins and people were facing starvation. As europe rebuilt, cars became more popular.
FormidableMistress@reddit
It's because of our interstate highway system started by Dwight Eisenhower in 1956.
https://highways.dot.gov/highway-history/interstate-system/50th-anniversary/history-interstate-highway-system
Derwin0@reddit
Is was still pretty car centric before that.
DogLord92@reddit
The govt had to make a decision on how best to move military assets across this quite sprawling country should an invasion occur. Rails or roads. Roads won in the form of interstate highways and rail is now an afterthought beyond long distance freight movement. The auto lobby is powerful.
grey487@reddit
Distance. The amount of land we have vs Europe. Our states are like European countries.
567Anonymous@reddit
American cities literally did things like rip out trolley tracks to encourage the automotive industry. The federal government invested in big high way systems instead of trains and other public transportation. Suburban communities were designed to be auto dependent.
Tiny-Pomegranate7662@reddit
Almost the entire of Europe is very habitable temperate productive land. The US has a lot of tough climate areas, especially the plains and Rockies splitting the country in half. This means that there was never a continuous blob of people to settle dense enough to get economies of scale from rail.
The east coast could have, but the fact that it wasn't something practical for the other 65% of the landmass made it less likely to be a national effort.
TimelyToast@reddit
This is like the opposite of how it works.
The more inhospitable (ex. Canada, Russia) the higher up they build. The more random land constraints like San Francisco or Seattle, the denser it gets.
There is a lot of reasons for the US being less dense but random patches of habitable land is usually an equation for high density (ex. Japan).
Tiny-Pomegranate7662@reddit
Both Canada and Russia are shaped more by policy weirdness then geography.
That's true, but the mountainous places you mentioned are also highly desirable and fruitful lands so they get the economies of scale of moving en mass.
NotTurtleEnough@reddit
I think this is why trains are far more feasible and popular in the NE.
Derwin0@reddit
Big ass country as opposed to several small countries.
Dapper_dreams87@reddit
US have lots of land. Europe have little land. People all spread out in US. People cramped together in Europe.
Complete_Aerie_6908@reddit
We are a vast, baby country.
Puzzled_Hamster58@reddit
Size of the country .
texas you can spend half a day driving and still be in Texas. Look up Texas over laid on eu etc.
220volt74@reddit
If it weren't for the oil industry, starting with Rockefeller and later Exxon, the U.S. could have moved away from its car dependency decades ago.
Background_Humor5838@reddit
That doesn't make any sense. Our country is still extremely vast and spread out. The only way to get around car dependence would be if everyone lived close together on a coast like Canada. Most Americans value their space and they don't want to live like that. It will never make sense to build railway systems that serve small numbers of people that are far away from each other. I don't understand why people think it's such a problem. We're not the only car dependent country and our air quality is still better than all of Europe combined. We are not polluting the earth with our car culture. There are many other countries doing much worse damage with their cars and factories and industrial waste.
SaoirseMayes@reddit
Car centrics design was really popular after WWII, but Europe was too busy rebuilding for it to get a stranglehold like it has on the US
Curious-Cranberry-27@reddit
Capitalism and racism. My city had a very well developed street car system that was bought up by car companies and then dismantled. White people fled the cities post WWII (white flight) and urban sprawl began.
OceanPoet87@reddit
Lower densities, large country, many climates out west aren't conducive for settlement, and topography challenges.
houdini31@reddit
Thr size of our country. We have major cities all over our country and we have massive roadways to get from state to state.
Beginning-Damage-555@reddit
Have you been to New Mexico? I have to warn some fellow Americans before they cross the state.
OwnLime3744@reddit
Ford and GM supported politicians and policies that supported highways over any other type of transportation.
patrikas2@reddit
So you have any idea how large the states are? Given you sound like you're from Europe and I've met many a European, most of you guys don't grasp just how large this country really is.
Of course, the other half of the answer is lobbyists.
Upbeat-Banana-5530@reddit
Many of our cities were built either after the industrial revolution or close enough to it that most of the buildings came afterwards.
lfxlPassionz@reddit
Everything is just so big that public transportation takes forever to get anywhere and our country doesn't fund the public transportation, the states or cities might or it's private companies so public transportation is not available everywhere.
ReddyGreggy@reddit
The continental U.S. is ~80% larger than the entire EU in land area. Put differently, the EU is about 55% the size of the lower 48 states.
The United States was wilderness, far-flung cities with vast frontier emptiness in between.
The answer is fairly obvious
katamino@reddit
Size and overall much lower population density in most of the country When there is plenty of land, cities first build out vs building up because it us cheaperq. Building up for many places started after the car was becoming common place. When population is spread out public transport is less efficient for people trying to get places.
Constellation-88@reddit
SPACE!
Unless you want a jillion railroad lines on every street, how else do you get from Dallas to Oklahoma City or across town to work.
Most of us drive 20-30 minutes to work, and that’s provided we live in the town we work in. There is no public transit outside of big cities, so there is no other way to get there. No car, no job, no money, no healthcare, no home.
Even if you live in a place with good public transit, if you ever want to leave tha city for vacation or a business trip or to visit friends, you need a car.
TheArgonianBoi77@reddit
We have a lot of land and the country was developing when cars were invented.
latin220@reddit
After World War II, the United States made a deliberate shift toward car-centered infrastructure, influenced by several overlapping forces ie the European model we had pre-WW2.
Leaders like Dwight D. Eisenhower were impressed by Germany’s Autobahn during the war, particularly for its military and logistical efficiency. This helped inspire the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956, which funded the modern interstate system.
At the same time, powerful industries—especially companies like General Motors, Ford Motor Company, and Standard Oil—strongly promoted automobile use. In some cases, corporations were even involved in dismantling streetcar systems, most famously in the General Motors streetcar conspiracy, which helped dismantle one of America’s greatest public transport systems in favor of our car centric infrastructure.
Federal funding heavily favored highways over public transit, making it easier to build roads than maintain or expand rail and trolley systems. This was all done in concert of a coordinated advertisement campaign against Jay Walkers, train/bus/trolly riders as well as those who favored walking to their local retail shop. Also tinged with racial slurs and tensions to encourage whites to adopt car centric lifestyles as they moved into the suburbs.
As Racial dynamics also played a significant role…. practices like Redlining and urban renewal programs, many highways were intentionally routed through Black and minority neighborhoods. This led to large-scale displacement and reinforced segregation, while making it easier for predominantly white suburban residents to commute into cities without living in them.
At the same time, suburbanization exploded. Cheap land, government-backed mortgages, and a cultural preference for single-family homes made car ownership not just convenient—but necessary. This eventually led to the hellscape we deal with today. Our once beautiful walkable neighborhoods and urban centers were replaced with stroads, highways and infrastructure that caters to the unhealthy sedentary lifestyle that Americans enjoy. From drive thru restaurants, churches and shops. Americans became addicted to big trucks, SUVs and began seeing sidewalks, trains and buses as for poor people with a racially tinged motivation due to “fearing the others” as not being American. Thanks to the propaganda blitz of the 50s and 60s most Americans now see the option as socialism and the hedonistic values of Europeans who value collectivism and public services over capitalism and individualistic nationalism where a “real man drives a Ford truck and doesn’t ride the bus!” That’s for communist countries like China or France or Italy. Simply unamerican… to imagine that not 80 years ago we had the same urban centers as Europeans in Milan, London, Paris and even Amsterdam.
xguy2287@reddit
Basically America is a Ponzi scheme and due to redlining based on Jim Crow ideology the country is stuck in a cycle of bad urban planning because to change it would be seen as unamerican and socialist. America in a nutshell?
latin220@reddit
Yeah America has seen better days, but it can change if we can convince people that walking, riding bikes and using public transportation is better than driving. I think Boston, Chicago and New York City are great examples of better urban planning than most places in the USA. We should encourage better transit. Especially that it’s a healthier alternative. Though again it’s seen as “socialist” to argue for good urban planning.
Decent-Structure-128@reddit
A big aspect of the Western US is scale. People in Europe have a hard time envisioning that you can drive for 8 hours and still be in the same state.
My Dad had some managers from Scotland fly over to Portland, OR. When he picked them up from the airport, they asked him to drive them to Bozeman Montana for dinner. He brought them over to the charter plane desk and explained to get there by dinner they would have to fly.
If they took the train, traveling day and night, they might get there in two days…. They just couldn’t get that scale from the map until the distance was converted into time.
Also, Oregon became a state in 1849. The gold rush had people arriving by wagon, train, boat, etc. But there are still vast areas with no people in them at all. The state found it not economically viable to carve through mountain ranges and lay hundreds of miles of tracks to connect towns of 200 people to towns of 20,000 by train. Roads and cars are cheaper, and easier to change as the populations change.
Theguyoutthere@reddit
SIZE!
PraetorianHawke@reddit
Space. Trains and busses don't work well when its an hour between towns.
Also it was how it was marketed after WWII, the great move to suburbia.
PerfectAnonym@reddit
Europe was already much more densely populated than the US at the advent of the car. Smart urban planning is hard. If you need to build a new grocery store, and cars exist, it is easier to just pick a random empty field somewhere nearby and build there than engage in well-thought-through- urban planning. Doing this isn't a problem until it is, and moving things once they're already built is extremely hard.
As to that last point, much of Europe was presented with a... unique opportunity to rebuild a ton of stuff after learning many of the lessons of modern urban planning (WW1&WW2 flattened huge swaths of european cities).
I also don't want to remove people's agency from the equation. Besides timing and people just doing what seemed reasonable in the moment, there was a concerted effort in the US specifically, in the 20th century, where we genuinely thought cars were the absolute future of everything. People thought nobody would actually want to live in the city anymore, that we'd tear out the city centers and replace them with huge parking garages, and everyone would live in the suburbs. I'm not even going to rag on this as hard as some redditors would, this model can be pleasant in smaller cities and afford great mobility. However, its inefficient and absolutely doesn't scale well if/when that city starts to grow. In reflection, this was a massive mistake on the part of the US. We tore up tons of rail lines and built things in their way, so replacing them will now be expensive and difficult.
ghjm@reddit
In the decade following WWII, American society experienced a period of confidence and a strong will to remake society for the better. This coincided with the new popularity of the automobile, and people's vision of the ideal future revolved around cars, garages and drive-in everything. So we built and reshaped our cities and society around that concept.
Europe, on the other hand, had to focus on financially and socially recovering from the war. Resources that might otherwise have been available for idealistic future-building had to go towards reconstruction of damaged buildings and infrastructure. This wasn't a lack of intent - Europeans were just as enthralled by automobiles as everyone else. But Europe wasn't able to act on this to the extent America was.
Today, Americans' ideal vision for the future might be less car-centric, but we are divided, frightened rather than confident of the future, cynical about idealistic visions, and fiercely resistant to change. We are not able to remake our built environment to suit our vision like they did in the mid 20th century, even if we could all agree on what that vision ought to be.
Apprehensive-Ant2141@reddit
We don’t really build functional neighborhoods for the most part. Larger cities have some but ultimately it’s because of sprawl.
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
Not only do we not build functional neighborhoods- it's basically illegal to build them in most of the country, thanks to the worst possible zoning rules (i.e., Euclidean zoning) that only allow one possible use of land per district.
It's like we sat down and tried to custom-design a system that would keep our population as sedentary, unhealthy and socially-alienated as possible.
Dave_A480@reddit
Part of it is Europe's cities being older, and thus developed for a world without cars... Same for NYC and some bits of the East Coast in the US.
Part of it is the US being very large with a lot of flat, developable land....
Part of it is the aftermath of WWII - Europe's governments building multifamily public housing as part of the recovery effort vs the US not having any serious war damage to rebuild (but people having gobs of saved money from wartime rationing to buy houses with).....
And a big part of it is an enduring American hatred for living in multifamily housing.... And the US being populated by people who left Europe driven by a dream of owning their own house on their own land.....
Adenn_Eesu@reddit
If you’re in the mood for a documentary, go watch Divided Highways. It’s from 1997, and free on YouTube. It talks all about how the interstate project succeeded, and what happened when it did.
actionfingerss@reddit
Geography
tcspears@reddit
I was just at the automotive museum in Torino, and they had a whole exhibit on this!
Post-WWII, most European capitals were in ruins, and their economies had collapsed. Roads were mostly destroyed and/or filled with rubble from the destroyed buildings. Only the extremely wealthy could afford cars, but they had to be small to get around, and were seen more as a leisurely mode of transportation. Also, since cities were closer together and more densely populated, and more people moved to the cities after the war, trains/trolleys were able to more quickly be stood up and handle the mass movement of people.
The US was very different as it didn't take much damage during WWII, so when soldiers returned home, they started buying homes in the suburbs, and the US's ambitious infrastructure projects included new roads and highways. Because people spread out more, they quickly exceeded the reach of trains, so there was a reliance on cars - especially larger ones to accomodate bigger families being raised.
dan_who@reddit
One part of the reason was, as many things in the US, lobbying from wealthy companies and individuals. The USA was, and still is, the home of major tire manufacturers. I believe vulcanized rubber was also invented here.
Trains don't use tires. People riding trains don't buy cars. Cars and tires both require oil.
So it made sense for certain interests to purchase rail companies in cities and then phase them out so people instead had to buy cars to get around. If you are interested, check out info on the American streetcar scandal.
I know people are sometimes triggered by the word conspiracy, but there were charges filed on this.
It was also a major plot point of the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit
There's a thread in r/askhistorians from a while back that discussed this too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/tq9fa/whats_the_truth_about_the_great_american/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy
toomanysnootstoboop@reddit
I think most Americans even don’t realize that many of our large cities were built well before the car, and were therefore just as walkable as many European cities. That’s just how cities were built before cars! LA is enormous and often pretty hostile outside of a car, but even LA used to have an extensive streetcar network.
So yes, our cities changed post WW2 and as car ownership became more widespread. Older parts of cities that had been walkable were sometimes destroyed to be replaced with freeways right through the city. But it made sense at that time because cars were such a powerful tool, so few people foresaw how much damage was being done.
Yes America is big, but that’s not the reason cars took over. We aren’t all semi truck drivers that travel hundreds of miles per day. I’m in a suburb in Southern California, and lots of people commute to San Diego (and some to LA). Both of those options are much longer than US average commute times. Many of them would be better served by a train instead of being stuck in traffic, but a train is much easier to build before the suburbs all get built out. We’ve missed our window and now it would be astronomically harder to accomplish, but if it did exist right now it seems to me that it would have huge ridership. So we mostly all have a car, and if you don’t have one in a lot of places you will have a very hard time.
uncloseted_anxiety@reddit
Take a ~~country~~ cocktail shaker twice the size of the EU but about three quarters as many people.
In it, combine: * 3 parts rugged individualism (‘why would I take a train when I can just get in my car and go wherever I want?’) * 1 part Cold War paranoia (gotta have highways in case the Reds disrupt the rail lines, and what do you want trains for anyway, you stinkin’ pinko?) * 1 part white flight (no trains in the ‘burbs) * 1 part classism (‘public transit is for poor people!’) * 4 parts lobbying from some of the most profitable industries in human history
Shake vigorously, then pour over an electorate that’s been aged in decades of propaganda saying any sort of investment in public infrastructure (except highways) is Of the Devil.
Garnish with your choice of 20th century Republican presidents (Reagan is traditional).
Serve as cold as you can manage in a world that is rapidly getting hotter.
metamucil_buttchug69@reddit
America big, European countries small. America new, Europe Old.
-Boston-Terrier-@reddit
We didn’t build our roads 1,000 years ago or tax our gasoline until it’s unaffordable.
TumbleFairbottom@reddit
In 1920, when cars were becoming more common, the US had a population density of 11.5 people per square kilometer. The continent of Europe had 45.8 people per square kilometer.
Cities and towns across Europe, like today, were kilometers established every few kilometers.
Virtual_Win4076@reddit
GM/Ford/Chrysler. GM literally purchased street car lines and tore them out to replace them with buses.
Antioch666@reddit
A lot of headstart in terms of development for Europe. A lot more urbanized vs US being relqtively sparsly populated in terms of density. Some infrastructure in Europe being ancient and preceeding cars and carriages.
Even today, there are 10-12 American cities surpassing one million people. In Europe there are close to 40. And that requires a lot more development in public transport and other ways to get around than cars. Especially since their total population is more than twice the US. Imagine of all of them had 2-3 cars per family.
Gloomy-Difference-51@reddit
The usa is extremely huge and not walkable everywhere.
zeprfrew@reddit
Millions spent by the automotive industry on government lobbying and on advertising.
Heiderleg@reddit
If you live in the nordic countries(outside of Denmark), unless you live in the bigger towns and cities, you are kind of dependent on cars because of the distances. Continental europe is quite different from the nordics regarding car culture.
Mayor__Defacto@reddit
When the car was first introduced, they were amazing. You (rich person) suddenly had a way to get out into the country without having to mix with the regular people on the train.
Eventually, cars got cheaper. Cities were expensive to live in, but the countryside (suburbs) was also very inconvenient - if you didn’t have a whole ass farm, you’d need to be getting in and out of the city all the time, which means you’d need a train - or a car.
Suddenly Cars get affordable to the typical person, and now they don’t need to rely on a Train to get to work. They can take advantage of the cheaper land outside of the city and build a house there, and just drive to work.
Fast forward that to everyone doing that, and now everything has to revolve around cars, because everyone’s got a car. The development in the suburbs is very unfriendly to transit because the lots are all spaced out.
NYdude777@reddit
We have alot of fucking room to roam around.
Potential-Drawing745@reddit
I live in Texas. A stat that's twice the size of Germany and with a population density of about 45/sq km. Germany, OTOH, has a population density of about 240/sq km.
A car makes more sense than most forms of transportation under those circumstances. Public transit is much better on a bang-for-your-buck basis in Germany.
Heck, my home metro area (DFW) is about the size of Belgium.
Synseer83@reddit
outside of big european cities, a car is a must. this fallacy that europe is this micromobility haven is absurd. there are small town all over europe where a car is a must and there are no public transportation.
TheOkaySolution@reddit
The US was the first to mass produce them, had more land to devote and develop to their operation, and Ford made a concerted effort to put his employees in personal vehicles, thereby creating a car culture for the common man
texasrigger@reddit
The model T absolutely revolutionized the US.
Prior-Soil@reddit
Part of it too is that we are cheap. We don't want to pay for public infrastructure that doesn't benefit me. I live in a city with pretty decent public transit that is actually free. I pay the absolute maximum allowed in property taxes. I don't use the public transit system but I'm glad it's there. Many people would not make the same choice I do.
The other reason is that we work a lot more than many other countries. Most people work at least 40 hours a week, with maybe 10 days of vacation per year. We are unwilling to spend a lot of extra time taking public transportation if we have another option. I live 1.5 mi from my job. If I want to take the bus, I have to take two buses and it will take over 1 hour. If I work late because I work second shift, there is no bus available to get me home.
SmoovCatto@reddit
cheap gas, and depraved oligarchy/organized crime: Big Oil, Big Auto, Big Concrete, Big Banking --
had their bought and paid for government at every level rip out public transit networks and replace them with freeways, forcing everybody to finance and maintain a car
PrimusDCE@reddit
It wasn't planned by a Viking in 795. Less dense, more sprawl.
BlatantDisregard42@reddit
Lots of stuff. As with many USA-specific problems, it’s impossible to overstate the influences of corporate lobbying and racial discrimination. Redlining, discriminatory lending policies, and white flight led to mass suburbanization of home owners away from city centers, but they often still had to commute in to those city centers for work. Coordinated propaganda and lobbying campaigns kept cities friendly to commuting motorists and made them hostile to pedestrians. And exclusionary zoning laws kept higher density housing and walkable business districts out of the suburbs, further reinforcing the need to own a car.
TheOkaySolution@reddit
We invented cars, we have more land to drive them on, and Ford made a concerted effort to put all of his employees in personal vehicles to establish a car culture for the common man
manicpixidreamgirl04@reddit
Many of our early settlers were pioneers. Instead of living close together in villages, families would start homesteads out in the wilderness. At that time, the closest town could be a day's wagon ride away.
The sentiment has remained, and a lot of people still prefer living on larger plots of land, further away from 'downtown' areas.
FishingWorth3068@reddit
I live on a 1/3 of an acre. Each plot in my neighborhood is about the same size. The closest grocery store is 1.2 miles away but it’s a 35 minute walk. You need a car.
Uffda01@reddit
In the aftermath of WWII - Europe had the opportunity to rebuild a lot of its infrastructure; people needed to move around and weren't going to have cars to do it.
There's also this American mythos revolving around "rugged individualism" and striking out on your own to find your riches etc....that undermines the idea of needing to work together and sharing resources/space with others (we see a similar debate with healthcare.)
kjlsdjfskjldelfjls@reddit
The auto industry here was huge and politically influential in the mid-20th century. In order to maximize profits and influence they flooded the airwaves with propaganda that equated car-centrism with progress, while also buying up local public transit systems and ripping tracks out.
At the same time cities and states shifted to euclidean zoning, making walkability and mixed-use buildings mostly illegal- aside from a select few places where those things already existed, and weren't demolished for new highways.
pseudonym7083@reddit
Oil and Car Lobby, same exact reason why we don't do the smart thing and have a more robust rail system.
Ok_Arachnid1089@reddit
Why did I have to scroll so far to find the right answer?
9for9@reddit
This is exactly what it is. So many people saying a lot of the towns were built after WWII and availability of cars. But many cities that were built prior to that time had good transit and divested from that and more walkable small towns have restructured around around driving over the last 60 years.
A lot of it's oil and car, but a good bit of it is racism and not wanting people to have access to certain spaces.
NotTurtleEnough@reddit
We do in the NE.
L8dTigress@reddit
If you remember the movie Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the freeway plans that Judge Doom talked about in the movie happened IRL. Car companies bought out every single streetcar nationwide and built freeways and highways, forcing a lot of families to purchase cars. Along with the growth of the suburbs post-WWII. When the Baby Boom happened, and the modern middle class emerged, many people started living in houses to raise their families, starting the classic image of the American dream with a nuclear family.
And in order to get to work, many people had to use cars because the suburbs created a setback known as Suburban sprawl. Which meant that people couldn't really walk to get where they needed to go. So the suburbs forced people into car dependency.
Not to mention, rural areas were very car-dependent already. While our land mass is only slightly smaller than continental Europe, it's only for one country. Compared to Europe, which is multiple smaller countries. You could literally fit 10 small European countries in the state of Texas alone.
Poupoo42@reddit
I'm no historian and I'm sure I'll butcher some stuff in this but I'll give it a shot. Pre Europe dates WAY farther back compared to the USA. Europe already had the blueprint for cities and towns since most things were built around walking. While that walkable style is in some cities that were built before the USA was founded like Charleston, Savannah, and New Orleans, etc., by the time the USA was the size it is today (about 100 years later) the automobile was invented. From that moment on it made since to build around cars since that was the main mode of transportation for Americans.
Effective_Move_693@reddit
NotJustBikes just made a YouTube video on this. On top of the ample room that was available to build suburban areas, the US had a different solution to the oil crisis of the 1970s. Instead of building transit systems and walkable infrastructure that wouldn’t be reliant on oil, the US just simply expanded on their oil drilling operations to drive the costs down
Ok_Arachnid1089@reddit
The U.S. has the most corrupt government in history and the auto industry is really good at bribes
AceTrnrArjun@reddit
Lobbying from the Detroit Big Three (GM, Ford, Stellantis) and the U.S. division of foreign automakers (Toyota, Honda, VW, et al), as well as from air carriers (Delta, American, United, et al), choke off funding to AMTRAK, the national rail network. Even if it did have more funding, the railroads that AMTRAK currently uses are designed for freight trains, and thus cannot handle the speeds the Trenitalia or Deutsche Bahn hit.
captainstormy@reddit
This should be a pretty obvious answer.
The oldest cities in Europe that are still inhabited today date back to the Neolithic era around 6000 BC. Even Rome, which is much younger was founded in 753 BC.
Civilization is much younger in the Americas. Remember that humanity migrated from Africa, to Europe and Asia, then the Americas.
The oldest still inhabited cities in North America are all pretty much in Mexico. They only date back to around 1000 BC. The oldest still inhabited cities in the US date from around 1100 AD. St. Augustine Florida is the oldest still inhabited city in the US founded by Europeans which happened 1565 AD.
The US is just a much younger country. I live in Columbus Ohio, which is a capitol of one of the biggest states in the US. It wasn't founded until 1812. There are a whole lot of our cities that were built after cars came along even.
Also, the US is more spread out than Europe. So even before cars came along people would often use horses to go between their home and town. That lead to a really big problem where you would have tons of horses in towns along with people. Horses create a lot of waste and that had to be dealt with. It was a big problem for early American cities.
ElPadero@reddit
It’s not just about land and space. It’s about money and capital. The shift to a car-centric America wasn’t just a natural evolution; it was a very deliberate project fueled by heavy lobbying and some pretty clever propaganda. Back in the early 1900s, our streets were actually shared public spaces for everyone, but as cars became more common, they were hated for causing accidents. To fix their image, the auto industry literally invented the term "jaywalking" to shame pedestrians and push them off the road, effectively privatizing public space for cars. By the 1930s and 40s, things got even more aggressive. A group led by General Motors actually bought up streetcar systems in dozens of cities only to dismantle them and replace them with buses, which made transit slower and less reliable. This forced people to start looking at cars as their only real option. Then, in 1956, the Federal Aid Highway Act sealed the deal. The government decided to foot 90% of the bill for interstates, pouring billions into roads while leaving the rail systems to rot without any real subsidies. Planners then used these new highways to cut straight through the hearts of cities, often intentionally destroying vibrant, low-income neighborhoods and creating the "suburban sprawl" we see today. Local laws followed suit by requiring massive parking lots for every building and banning shops from being built near homes. Over time, we designed our world so that you have to own a car just to survive, making what feels like a personal "choice" actually a result of a century of rigid legislation and corporate influence.
Whatisgoingonnowyo@reddit
Capitalism
sponge_welder@reddit
Carmageddon is a good book that covers many aspects of this. There are a ton of factors, including:
Lobbying from the car industry
Racism, white flight, and redlining
Postwar city planning à la Robert Moses
Psyko_sissy23@reddit
It's a multi-faceted answer. Back in the day there were a lot not trains and local electric trolleys. The oil and car companies along with the national highways association lobbied for government funded roads and highways. That shifted the focus on maintaining trains and train lines to the money going to building new roads. Street cars were still common in bigger cities. In the 1930's to 1950's the auto consortium grouped up to buy electric street car companies and then shut them down. The railway companies weren't interested in lobbying against the auto and oil industry until it was too late.
In the 1950's infrastructure planning took place and removed a lot of neighborhoods to make way for highways. They focused on removing black neighborhoods. In some instances they modified the designs like adding turns to avoid white neighborhoods. Around the same time Brown vs Board of education decision came out, it resulted in the great white flight and caused a bunch of white people to move to suburbs so they could avoid school desegregation. That pushed even more people into the suburbs. That lead to more use of the car and also urban decay.
General_Ad_6617@reddit
Greed. We were prosperous and greed won out.
CaramelMacchiatoPlzz@reddit
Oil and car companies destroying public transit in America.
im_in_hiding@reddit
Way less population density in a massive area
GTO400BHP@reddit
A lot of it was WWII, a lot of it was the railroads.
Because the railroads had a grip on fast transit, freight or people, they had become rather unruly and were flauting rules, regulations and laws. By the early 20th Century, safety was a huge concern to everyone but the railroads, whose only concern was profit, and the federal government was failing to pull them into line.
When Eisenhower was overseeing the European theater, he saw how easily Europe was disabled by targeted bombing on rail lines, and thought America should never be so vulnerable; after all, a truck can detour or trudge through, a train cannot.
After the war, basically, America had profited greatly, and a lot of people spent 4yrs forced to save, either from service payroll or factory work, and had the income to buy a house and a vehicle. Manualfacturers had these now still assembly lines that were built with the help of the government, and a hungry market, so learn from Ford a few decades prior. Plus, lots of military surplus of all manner, including cars.
A few years later, Eisenhower is elected president and enacts the Interstate system to give America its own nation-wide Autobahn, and people can outpace rail travel in a vehicle they already own (and would likely be taking to get to the train station).
People like to blame suburbanization for rail demise, and while it is a key factor preventing the return of better railroad service across the US, the automobile created suburbia, not the other way around.
Patient_Parsley7760@reddit
A lot depends on WHERE in the US you are, and how the area was settled.
On the Eastern seaboard, towns were built close together and often small. You see that in Massachusetts, in places like the Pioneer Valley. I once lived in a place where the front door was in one town and the back door was in another. Places like that are more walkable and bike friendly.
You also have cities where driving a car makes your commute WORSE in a lot of cases. In Illinois, driving from the suburbs into the city to go to the museums is not a massive problem, but if you live in the city and work in the Loop, you take the bus. It's just easier.
Then there's the Midwest and the West. During the westward expansion of the 19th century, towns were spread out, with a great deal of land being used for farming. It is still that way, even about an hour and a half drive west of Chicago. In places like this, cars are absolutely essential. It takes around 3 hours to get from the Chicago suburbs to Des Moines, Iowa. If you head towards Arizona and Nevada, you'll need a car, a fully charged cell phone, and about 3 months of vacation time.
Dio_Yuji@reddit
What a lot of my countrymen don’t seem to understand is that just about every American city proper was established before the car. And we had a robust nationwide passenger rail network 100 years ago. And most cities had some sort of light rail prior to the 1930s, even my small southern city, which had a population of 25,000 people 100 years ago, and had a streetcar system.
The idea that cities were founded around cars is untrue. Cities were destroyed and then REorganized around cars.
The reasons for our car-centricity are the Interstate Highway System, racism, developers, and automobile manufacturers working together to reshape the United States.
Blue387@reddit
Most of the best public transit exists in larger older cities like New York, the island of Manhattan is small and confined. New York City before the 1898 consolidation was Manhattan and couldn't handle the large numbers of elevated trains and ground vehicles with the influx of emigrants from Europe in the 19th century. City planners developed the street grid and built bridges and tunnels and subways to connect the city and allow for people to move out to the outer boroughs like my neighborhood which got the subway in 1915 or so.
Newer cities from Houston to Phoenix to Los Angeles have more room to grow and spread out. Los Angeles also dismantled their old streetcar lines to force people to own cars. Public transportation also requires significant capital investment from local and state governments to build and maintain. I doubt if you gave Ohio and Kentucky a few billion to build a subway system in Cincinnati they would want to do so.
ceanahope@reddit
Access to public transit is not everywhere. Where public transit exist, it's not always a better option. I say that as someone who takes public transit daily. Four years ago, I lived in a place where i had 2 options for public transit to get to work (by car it is 18 miles about 29 km). Option 1 was light rail with a transfer in the middle, required a 15 min bus ride to get to the station. The light rail ride was 1h and 10 minutes. Second option was bus to train. Bus ride was 1h, train ride 20 minutes. Car ride was 1h on an average day.
This is pretty common in major cities, you hae public transit but its not the best setup. Small towns and rural areas have it worse. I HAVE traveled in France and England using only public transit and it is WAY BETTER. I've done public transit in LA and the SF Bay area and it has a lot to be desired in comparison.
The other issue is scale. The US is massive. A ride from LA to SF is about 7-8 hours in a car. You could still drive another 5 hours north and STILL be in California. Many states are huge. Most European countries are much smaller. Just for scale, lake superior could hold Scotland.
Any_Nectarine_7806@reddit
Domestically developing a mass produced car helped a lot.
phenomenomnom@reddit
I can't believe no-one is in here talking about GM and other auto and oil lobbies pushing to dismantle public transportation of all kinds for the entire duration of the 20th century.
Passenger rail, bus lines, all of it. They even pushed to reduce sidewalks in housing developments.
No shit. If you live in a city older than 100 years there are probably streetcar tracks in the "historic" part of your downtown. Abandoned, or even paved over. There may even be abandoned subway tunnels.
There's more to it than that -- the USA is very big, and the way some regions industrialized post-automobile had the factory outside of town, instead of IN the city, and the workers driving to it instead of walking. Most of the South and West are like that --
-- but today, life could be so much better if we had the option of public transport, like EuroRail. My god, if 33 countries including France and the Balnans can figure that shit oyt, surely we can get Virginia and New Mexico on the same page.
I resent the greedy bastards who are constantly trying to break everything good and sell it off for fun and profit. We need to hold them accountable. Fuck.
ShortRasp@reddit
Oh, idk... Maybe because the US massively sprawled out while Europe is condensed.
Certain_Shake_5157@reddit
All this talk about Europe no cars, everything is available in walking distance makes me do a Google search and realize Europe doesn't have a superstore like Walmart, Costco.
TheKiddIncident@reddit
While it's true that the USA is quite large, that's not really the reason. Most US cities before WWII had very extensive rail systems. Los Angeles for example had a great trolly car system. Larger cities in the US like NYC, Boston and Chicago have retained those systems. Los Angeles is very painfully and expensively rebuilding theirs.
One key difference was WWII. After WWII, industry in Europe was shattered. Countries like France and Germany had massive rebuilding projects to provide basic services to their citizens. For this reason, governments heavily invested in trains as the most economic way to move people around their countries. This post-WWII investment set the stage for the excellent rail system that Europe has today.
However, in the USA, we had huge factories that had been building planes and tanks and all manner of things. For example, Ford's Willow Run facility was capable of producing a complete B-24 every 63 minutes. Now the war is over. What is Ford going to produce?
You guessed it: cars. Millions of cars.
So, yes, in parts of the USA like the west, cars would have been the obvious choice regardless. However, without WWII we likely would have had a more extensive passenger rail network in the east and other dense areas of the USA.
glenn765@reddit
🎶 Wide Open Spaces 🎶
diplomystique@reddit
One big factor that others haven’t mentioned: wealth. Average Americans have been richer than average Europeans for essentially our entire history; it’s a big reason why so many people born in Europe decided to move to America, after all.
Speaking in very broad strokes, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries Europe and the U.S. had opposite problems. In Europe, peasants were plentiful, but good agricultural land was relatively scarce. In the U.S., there were vast tracts of arable land, but relatively few people. So Americans tended to use a lot of agricultural techniques that saved labor, even if they required more land; the tradeoff made sense for us, even though it would have been bonkers in Europe.
Thus, rural America tended to consist of big contiguous farms, rather than patchwork fields around villages. We used vastly more horses, which require acres of grazing land but can do the work of several men. We devoted much more of our cultivation to cattle, which also require lots of land. And we mechanized agriculture sooner and more aggressively than Europe. Even our towns reflected the difference: so many people used horses or horse-drawn vehicles that even Manhattan, urbanized since the 17th century, had unusually wide streets by Euro standards.
So by the mid twentieth century, a big part of our country consisted of relatively large towns with big streets, surrounded by big farms widely spaced. The little village of English postcards never made sense to build in America, even a century before the automobile. But when the car came, it was perfectly suited for how America already lived.
AleroRatking@reddit
I don't think people realize how spread out rural USA is. I can't even get to a store in 20 minutes.
Add to it public transit isn't useful when homes are extremely spread out
Legrandx76@reddit
The Goodyear conglomerate dismantled the trolley systems including sealing off a beautiful subway station in LA. Still there and closed FYI. The airline industry further lobbied to dismantle the rail industry when it was under government regulation. A cross country bullet train would be very popular these days.
largos7289@reddit
Have you seen the size of the US? If it's in my town i can walk to most things. If i want a bank thou, the one i used pulled up from my town awhile ago. The next closest one is two-three towns over and I'm not walking 4 miles there and 4 miles back.
Western-Giraffe-5150@reddit
It has to do with the size of the country and the ability to land a plane in an emergency or for a military operation pretty much anywhere in the country.
witchy12@reddit
Car ownership was rising drastically, and cars were considered "the future", so a lot of cities stopped investing in public transit and started catering toward cars. Also, a lot of the neighborhoods these highways paved over were considered "unsavory", so to them it wasn't a big deal to build the highway.
Horrible idea in hindsight, and some cities like Boston and Seattle have moved their inner-city highways underground. Boston replaces it with the greenway https://www.bostoncentral.com/pix/pages/21/rose-kennedy-greenway-aerial.jpg and Seattle replaced it with their waterfront [)
reflect25@reddit
I think you're kind of forgetting how expensive cars actually were (and labor was relatively cheaper back then)
Post ww2, most countries could not afford a fleet of cars for all of their citizens. They didn't have heavy amounts of industry as most of it was bombed or needed to focus on say (mechanized) farming and rebuilding their cities.
Only USA really had the money and oil to become so car center post ww2. And then by the 70s when many european countries were going to be full car-centric there was the OPEC oil crisis. many countries did a moderate u turn and brought back their public transit rather than completely demolishing it.
Vivaciousseaturtle@reddit
Zoning laws and the American idealistic suburb changed a lot of that too. Instead of corner stores and nearby jobs and necessities, you have your quiet neighborhood of single family homes in one area and all the hubbub of business in the district up the road.
cjf4@reddit
The US hit a huge economic boom (post WW2) right as the car reached maturity, which facilitated and locked in suburban development patterns, especially because the US has practically infinite space.
This cannibalized cities, because instead of dealing with city problems, people could just leave by buying a house in the suburbs that was 20m away. So cities lose not only their tax base, but also the people with money who wouldn't tolerate crime, decay, poor services etc (obviously this is highly correlated with racial dynamics but ill leave this aside for now).
Because the US has the means (wealth, space, the car, and the ability to build a ton of things at scale), and because now almost everyone has the expectation that they'll have their own house/yard, this pattern continues and compounds for 50-60 years post war to the point where its normalized and expected.
Of course were starting to hit the limits of this development model now (housing/building costs have risen, space isnt as easy to find, nimbyism, traffic), but an alternative hasn't really emerged or stuck, at least not yet. Also most (but not everyone) prefers suburban living at this point.
Danibear285@reddit
Critical thinking and a basic knowledge of history does wonders.
kilertree@reddit
Car companies and the U.S has more land. Car companies are the reason why Mass Transit sucks in the U.S. Due to North America being massive instead of cities being buit up, suburbs were built outside of the City. Highland Park was built because Henery Ford didn't want to pay Detroit City Taxes.
Jake0024@reddit
The automobile lobby pushed for laws prioritizing cars over people. Parking minimum, minimum street sizes, jaywalking laws, etc
G00dSh0tJans0n@reddit
Space. Vast spaces between cities outside of a few urban corridors. New cities that didn't really grow until post-Civil War sprawled greatly as well.
Interesting-Quit-847@reddit
Gosh, so many reasons...
As a country, we have less population density.
Post WWII, we heavily subsidized suburban development for returning soldiers and their families. On the back of this, we had a lot of "white flight" from urban cores. The white middle class, newly enriched by the post-war economy wanted lawns and racial homogeneity. Racism played a big role. Freedom = white = cruising the streets in a Ford Mercury. Public transportation = poverty = black.
We made more affordable cars earlier.
We subsidized gasoline prices.
Tommy_Wisseau_burner@reddit
Cheap gas, more space, younger
------------------@reddit
The country is gigantic and none of it was developed, and building the US highway system helped cement the idea of personal vehicles as the main method of transportation
Combat__Crayon@reddit
Most of our cities were built after 1800 on grid systems. That made adaptation to cars easier when they hit in the 1900s. The auto industry lobbied to get rid of mass transit like streetcars, so cars became the default and then all the post WWII development was suburban sprawl and cities that really didn't even consider mass transit as real option. Which is why outside of NY, DC, Chicago, San Francisco, Boston and Philadelphia living car free is a challenge. Those cities are also some of the oldest cities that were built when walking was considered.
WolfThick@reddit
Car companies paying up politicians to build roads
zoppaTheDim@reddit
Distance
thewNYC@reddit
Manipulation by the oil industry combined with the vast distances of the USA. Remember the US is larger than all Western Europe combined.
pinecone-party@reddit
The space. Everything is spaced far apart. Europe is old and tiny and everything is condensed.
Drawn-Otterix@reddit
It takes me 1 hour to drive to work, it takes me a bit over that to go to the city.
Gangster-Girl@reddit
Wide open spaces.
GrimSpirit42@reddit
One county was mostly designed before the invention of the automobile.
The other after.
Plus, the US was ALREADY spreading out when the car was invented. The only way to get from East to West was Horse, Wagon, Water or Train.
Horse, Wagon, Water and Train all have limitation.
The car flourished.
theok8234@reddit
The automobile industry and cockiness
AggressiveKing8314@reddit
Distance
Prestigious-Web4824@reddit
led
Bootmacher@reddit
Same reasons Canada and Australia are also more car-centric than Europe: space and wealth. Entirely new cities were being built still. Being far removed from conflict zones meant that our industrial capacity was intact and we had enough cash to buy these new houses and buy the cars.
Ozinuka@reddit
Politics.
Also, Henry Ford. But mostly, politics.
GSilky@reddit
Most of the buildings west of Omaha were built after 1930 because automobiles finally opened up the west beyond the coast. I live in Denver Colorado, it's barely 150 years old, and it's first "skyscraper" was built in 1983. The town had dirt roads connecting it to the rest of the nation until the 1960s. Population started exploding after WWII and the new building had to accommodate cars, because that was practically a requirement for living in the west. Tl;dr: most of our infrastructure was developed after car ownership was becoming ubiquitous, and we didn't have 1000 year old abbeys in the way of retrofitting to acknowledge this reality. In short, we could so we did.
glamm808@reddit
Corruption - The mass purchase of public transport by car companies to force the purchase of personal vehicles
karmapolice63@reddit
A lot of the country is wide open space, and even in smaller states traveling from city to rural areas is not easy or feasible without a car
alwaysboopthesnoot@reddit
Larger distances to traverse and more cargo and people that needed to be transported across those larger distances. A culture and spirit of individuality that has been nurtured and inculcated since Europeans first arrived here from their home countries they were fleeing, tends to assert itself ahead of and above the common good, probably covers the rest of the reasons why.
ElectronGuru@reddit
Transportation always follows infrastructure. Once the interstate highway act hit, everything else was inevitable.
Belisama7@reddit
Because of all the space. Nothing is close to anything else, and cities were designed differently than they were in Europe, where space is more limited.
99UsernamesTaken@reddit
American cities used to have some of the best and and largest public transit systems in the world, but car dependency changed that. It started after WW2 when suburban sprawl began and the idea of living in a single-family home with a driveway and a car became the norm for most middle-class people starting families. Combine this with a massive country, individualistic culture, relatively low gas prices, the interstate highway act, white flight, lobbying from car, gas, and tire companies, exclusionary zoning laws, shrinking of public transit services, etc... and you create a very car-centric country
machagogo@reddit
Post war the US had significantly more money to spend and resources to spare, so just about everyone could and did buy a car.
The US had a BOOM to the tune of near doubling in population in about 25 years, so entire cities that did not exist were built. These were built entirely in the automobile era, so they were planned as such.
The US had A LOT of undeveloped land which could be had for cheap, so housing and businesses were built outside of the existing population centers.
Steerider@reddit
The US is a lot more spaced out. If you live in a city and never leave it, you don't need a car. If you don't live in a city, you need a vehicle to get around.
Least_Bat1259@reddit
3 mountain ranges, open space, forests, and distance between cities.
Current_Mongoose_844@reddit
Ripping up the railroads in the first half of the 20th century, at the behest of reactionary planners and the car industry.
muchquery@reddit
Here are a couple statements from a google search:
Professional_Day_543@reddit
Robert Mosses was one of the main assholes behind a good bit of it. Highly recommend the behind the bastards episode about him.
uglytruthshurts@reddit
Because the US doesnt require a passport to cross borders in the US
Locally, because everything is spread out
Ok-Possibility-9826@reddit
Because only the 13 colonies were really constructed as city like structures. By the time the rest of the country was strung together, it was constructed much more sparsely. Yes, you still have major cities elsewhere, but they’re much further apart. So the vast majority of the country requires a car.
pmyourhotmom@reddit
Corporate greed and bad campaign finance laws
79215185-1feb-44c6@reddit
White Flight
Oldpuzzlehead@reddit
Standard Oil buying all of the public transportation companies and shutting them down.
Eric848448@reddit
Cars and gas were cheap when most our cities were built out.
Many European cities were either built before cars or in the aftermath of the war when owning one wasn’t the norm.
grammercomunist@reddit
*led!!
pmorter3@reddit
suburban sprawl essentially
Ol_Man_J@reddit
Age and space.
njmiller_89@reddit
History, geography.