What is your take on the recent incident involving visitors from the neighboring country at a major historical site in Istanbul?
Posted by mikewazoski59@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 529 comments
U__X@reddit
🍿
KillerPalm@reddit
Especially after that Turkish singer wasn't allowed to enter Greece for something kinda similar.
Pass the popcorn lol.
Sea_Pickle_927@reddit
No what happened with her is being refused ENTRY into the European Union, as non EU citizens seeking admission do not have a right of entering and the immigration officer determines their eligibility for admission. When lawfully admitted to a country you have certain constitutional rights such as the freedom of speech therefore something like this arrest could NEVER HAPPEN IN A NORMAL COUNTY. Turkey not being one is fairly well known of course but comparing the incidents is misleading.
desertedlamp4@reddit
Turkish singer did her pettiness in a private venue surrounded by ethnic Turks/Muslim minority, these Greeks were doing it in public in front of everyone
QuietPositive2564@reddit
We fn built this church!
MoonRise4@reddit
Have you ever heard of Fatih the Conqueror?
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
What's the difference? Everyone should relax and think about their actions before doing something stupid, regardless of the audience.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
These ones displayed a flag to kill everyone non-orthodox out in public.
The lady sang a (nationalist?) song in private.
The situations are not comparable in the slightest.
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
I still fail to see the difference. The act itself is the problem, not only its potential fallout.
kigra67@reddit
Yeah. Singing a nationalist song is definitely problematic. How could they!!
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
How was her performance at a festival private? It would have been private if she sang it alone in the shower, not in front of an audience.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
Public = places belonging to the government, so the streets, parks, (local) government buildings, etc.
Private = property belonging to people and/or entrance is restricted/prohibited for unauthorized people.
Unless it was a subsidized, national gathering type of festival, a festival is almost always on private property / in private
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
So, a bunch of neo-nazis can organise a private concert and shout their hateful slogans there, and it's all fine by your definition since it wouldn't be public?!
I disagree. Public is everything exposed to general population.
LingonberryDizzy6633@reddit
Saying that you're proud to be a Turk is hateful?? Lmao
Equivalent_Candy5248@reddit
Singing about Atatürk entering Izmir in 1923 as if nothing bad happened to its civilian population of Greek ethnicity is not merely stating pride in being Turkish.
Various-Barber-7162@reddit
Big bro is watching
abki12c@reddit
Stop with the bullshit propaganda. The flag says "Orthodoxy or Death" not "be Orthodox or Die" and is similar to the slogan "Freedom or Death" used in the Greek war of Independence. It doesn't incite violence and was first used by the Esphigmenou monastery in 1972, after it cut ties with the Eastern Orthodox Church as a form of protest against the Church's leadership entering into dialogue with Pope Paul VI.
The Turkish singer said "Long live Mustafa Kemal Pasha Long live. Your name will be carved on every stone" which is a lyric in the song izmir marşı she sang. So she praised the killer of Greeks.
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
"Orthodoxy or death" means you would rather die than stop being Orthodox. It is not a threat to anyone who isn't Orthodox, we aren't violent like muslims are. It's alright to be illiterate, though.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
It wasn't "private" she did it in front of an audience. The fear here is radicalizing an entire community of Greece on behalf of a foreign country.
Kulletrops@reddit
Turkish singer just said "Ne mutlu Türküm diyene" ( How happy is the one who says, 'I am a Turk'!). And the Greeks forbid her to enter. While those 2 idots open a flag which is written “Be Orthodox or die' . So who is civil, who is right??
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Well you're neither civil nor right, you're lying, to accommodate your propaganda and narrative. The flag said "Orthodoxy or Death" - which means I'd rather die if I'm to betray / abandon my faith. It's literally the same as Freedom or Death, which is tied to the Greek flag itself, and is neither a threat nor an invitation to... become free lmao
NomadController@reddit
You guys r rly good at lying. Did you learn this from the 🧃?
Hammurabis84@reddit
"Kebab and not gyros"
BeeUnfair4086@reddit
Orthodoxy or Death, the way you described it, doesn't sound any better.....
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
\^ this
doesn't sound better than
??
Okay buddy
BeeUnfair4086@reddit
Yea, someone who no matter what will not abandon his faith even if wrong, sounds like exactly the madman that causes havoc in this world every couple of decades. He would even go to the extend of death and for some reason he had to express his "totally not ill intended and peaceful opinion" in a foreign country. Cmon man, be serious. Those who did the flag-job were extremists.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
No, someone who wouldn't abandon their faith doesn't sound like someone who would MURDER others for not converting to their faith.
I'm saying that as an atheist by the way, it's really not the same.
I'm not saying they're not braindead nationalists, I don't support their actions. But there are levels to this.
shuvooo07@reddit
"Neither a threat nor an invitation.. ", so why do it in a public place, why not in your basement?
I always hear from so called free people, "keep your religion/beliefs to yourself!"
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Why is everyone moving the goalposts in here?
There are many Greek comments in here saying they don't support these fools' actions and they were rightly arrested.
I explained that this phrase is NOT a threat but a very common phrase in Greece (X or Death) - for example "Freedom or Death", Ελευθερία ή Θάνατος, which has 9 syllables in Greek, and is the reason the Greek flag has 9 horizontal stripes. It's not a threat, it's a proclamation.
This isn't me saying they had the right to do it, I'm not an expert on Turkish law. I said it's not a threat or an aggressive slogan as so many people claim in this thread.
nobody1568@reddit
Αnd meander is a decorative motif, the Swastika is a hindu symbol and the wolf salute is an homage to the animal.
You fascists are really something else lol.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
lmao are you calling me a fascist??? Based on what?
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
Oh... well then it's completely appropriate, right?
yamankara@reddit
they didn't say that this makes it appropriate now did they?
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
Are you one of those fool ass kissers who defends Greeks whenever you can?
yamankara@reddit
nah, I just hate manipulation and stupidity.
sex_drugs_and_sauron@reddit
All the more reason to reply him, not me. Two idiots attempt to provoke the public, whatever it is writing on that flag would only make things worse, not better. Besides, displaying a flag with "orthodoxy or death" written on it can go both ways, since the locals where it's displayed wouldn't know what that means and can interpret in either way.
yamankara@reddit
what those guys did is certainly stupid. deportation is also reciprocal and therefore potentially an ok response.
explanation/correction regarding the meaning of the writing on the flag still doesn't equal justifying/condoning it.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Nobody said it was right. I explained what the phrase actually means and says. I don't support their actions nor am I blaming Turkish police for arresting them. I don't like brainwashed nationalists.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Wrong
abki12c@reddit
The Turkish singer said "Long live Mustafa Kemal Pasha Long live. Your name will be carved on every stone" which is a lyric in the song izmir marşı she sang.
Jnyl2020@reddit
I thought we all agreed on the fact that invaders must die.
CommieAlert@reddit
Nope it's "orthodoxy or death" turkish media knows it can get dumb chauvinists attention so they rephrased like that on purpose
Also "ne mutlu türküm diyene" is as fascistic slogan as "gott mit uns" -even though it just says "god (is) with us"- or in this case, "orthodoxy or death". Nationalism is a cancer no matter whose it is.
Orthobrah52102@reddit
That's not what Orthodoxy or Death means. The Orthodox Church has a long history of persecution. The slogan means "I refuse to give up my faith even if a sword is placed upon the back of my neck". As has happened numerous times throughout history and even recently with the Coptic Martyrs of Libya. It literally does equate exactly with the phrase "give me liberty or give me death".
scanfash@reddit
Turks regularly open Turkish flags at Ataturk the butcher of the Orthodox so everyone can throw mud
overbardiche@reddit
They meant it in the Christian "sinners will go to hell" type of way. Not that they will kill you, but not doing this will lead to ruin.
Mucklord1453@reddit
What ? They did it surrounded by throw heritage and patrimony. And it was also religious expression in one of their holy churches
FantasticQuartet@reddit
Did they really think there wouldn't be cameras in one of the most well known world sites? It's a new level of stupid.
idontwantoliveanymo@reddit
oh no. they posed with a flag in public to take photo. the horror!
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I’d say it was almost exactly the same situation. :)
abki12c@reddit
The popcorn is good for the comments about the same post in r/Turkey , where you can see the real opinions of Turks wthout filters. They talk about throwing us into the sea and us occupying their islands
thatMrGecko@reddit
yes, all of us agree with +12 karma comments in a country sub with 300k active users
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
Dude, all the comments on Turkish subs are like this.
thatMrGecko@reddit
this is a lie
mkc566@reddit
🍿
jonherstad@reddit
Those popcorn are literally for the replies to your own comment. LOL. They simply can't contain themselves.
Worried-Owl-9198@reddit
Lets not twist the facts here I ve personally seen people singing Christian hymns inside the Hagia Sophia and no one batted an eye nor would they. The real issue here isnt about faith or worship its the flags explicit call to violence Become Orthodox or die. Under our laws, this constitutes inciting hatred and animosity, and no matter where you go in the world Switzerland included this is prosecuted as hate speech. At the end of the day, there is a clear line between freedom of religion and a direct threat to life, and no modern legal system treats a death threat as a form of free expression
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
no, this isn't a threat. It's the exact same as "Freedom or death" - which means I'm gonna be either free or dead. It's not a threat to anyone that if they don't become free or Christian they'll die lmao
rodoslu@reddit
No need to sugar coat it, if a Turk visited Thrace and chanted freedom or death it would be perceived as threat by many greeks.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Uck flags are not allowed in our own stadium.
Citaku357@reddit
Which is fucking stupid
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
The UÇK is still listed as a terrorist organization on several sites, and was officially considered as such by several western countries during their period of activity. They also had ties to Bin Laden and made their money thanks to the international heroin trade. So, yes, the UÇK is without a doubt a terrorist organization.
wantmywings@reddit
Bin Laden also had ties to the US. See how easy it is to play the “ties” game?
SadLeopard6497@reddit
Yes he did, you all come from the same kitchen. Bin Laden, Israel, Kosovo, ISIS. You just had the lack of pride and kissed their boots to get another country. Thank you USA, you are my best friend...
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
The most cucked nation in the history of mankind 😹
Citaku357@reddit
Yes we thank them for saving us from a genocidal fascist regime. Now go cry harder about it lol
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
Define fascism
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
Ties as in the director of the UÇK's elite service was the brother of Osama Bin Laden's number two, lmao
Absalom578@reddit
Read the actual sources of that dumb Wikipedia passage you posted:
One of them is Yossef Bodansky, literal lobbyist for Serbs, including Milosevic' lobbying group. The other is a newspaper article by George Bogdanich, a Serb (at least Serb-descended American) that writes revisionist history about Yugoslavia and Srebrenica lmao.
Citaku357@reddit
Me when I make shit up lol. How fucking pathetic you guys can get
Absalom578@reddit
You should read your own sources. "Director of elite services" and the source is Yossef Bodansky, who was connected to Serbian lobbying groups and Milosevic in particular.
Absalom578@reddit
You should read your sources. "Director of elite service" and the source is Yossef Bodansky, someone tried to the Serbian lobby lmao. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yossef_Bodansky#Bias_and_Serbian_lobby_connections
Citaku357@reddit
Source: trustmebro.com, also the UCK doesn't exist anymore
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
Source is the wikipedia page for the UÇK LOL
Absalom578@reddit
Your "Source" is Serb propagandists spewing shit lmao.
One of them is Yossef Bodansky, literal lobbyist for Serbs, including Milosevic' lobbying group. The other is a newspaper article by George Bogdanich, a Serb (at least Serb-descended American) that writes revisionist history about Yugoslavia and Srebrenica lmao.
"director of the UÇK's elite service" and the sources are Serb lobbyists and Serb nationalists lmao.
Absalom578@reddit
Read the actual sources of that dumb Wikipedia passage you posted:
[]()
One of them is Yossef Bodansky, literal lobbyist for Serbs, including Milosevic' lobbying group. The other is a newspaper article by George Bogdanich, a Serb (at least Serb-descended American) that writes revisionist history about Yugoslavia and Srebrenica lmao.
"director of the UÇK's elite service" and the sources are Serb lobbyists and Serb nationalists lmao.
Citaku357@reddit
Hmmmm yeah sure lol
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
Citaku357@reddit
Absolutely nothing, just some accusation from Millosheviq lol
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
Unseen levels of cope 😹😹😹
Citaku357@reddit
Kosova is an independent nation, so who is doing the coping here 🤣😂
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
80iq reply, but I'm not sure what I expected from a Kosovar.
Citaku357@reddit
Cope and seethe harder please 🙏 😢 😭
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Are you really trying to tell us Albanians have nothing to do with heroin trade? I won't even mention weed because that's synonymous with Albanians, their weed and the village of Lazarat. Your mafia is literally one of the biggest in the entire world, having huge power in all of the biggest countries like the USA, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Spain.
And you will really play dumb and be like "uhhh where's the source". The source is go outside and meet people, I think even your friends would laugh at you if you told them Albania had nothing to do with heroin, that's common knowledge.
Citaku357@reddit
Serbs talking about the mafia, how hilarious. You can believe whatever delusionals you want i don't give a shit 😂
BarnaclePotential132@reddit
A crazy TIL fact. In Germany, 'Albanian' is probably the only nationality used as an insult. It became a synonym for criminal and antisocial behavior. The problem is that people don’t differentiate between Albanians from Albania and Albanians from Kosovo. The latter are to blame for these prejudices. All Albanians i have met from Albania or North Macedonia are normal people and well integrated. It’s the total opposite for Kosovo Albanians, And thats crazy, it seems like there are totally different people.
Ujemegaz@reddit
Stupid or not, it is such.
CryptographerOk7588@reddit
The word BECOME means that you are not something first and that you are something later. So become orthodox or die means you are not orthodox and you must be to stay a life.
You would be correct if it said stay orthodox or die
LizardmanJoe@reddit
The word "become" isn't part of the phrase, just a mistranslation, intentional or not. The phrase is "Orthodoxy or death" same as "Freedom or death"
DnDevrim@reddit
Anyway, this place is a mosque atm. No one can come and act like this in a place has political conflicts. They knew what they could be faced in a conservative and nationalist country, a religious country. It is a provocative act for tbh.
LizardmanJoe@reddit
I was simply clarifying the meaning of that specific phrase. The nationalist morons that raised the flag should be rightfully sent back where they came from.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
That's great, now tell me, where did you read the word become?
CryptographerOk7588@reddit
Look what you quoted. If you don't know what you quoted from it is not my problem
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
I quoted someone who lied and said that the phrase "become Orthodox" was written on the flag. It wasn't. Are words hard?
CryptographerOk7588@reddit
For you they are hard.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
To clarify and make it understandable to you, "Freedom or Death", "Orthodoxy or Death", "Real Madrid or Death" have a VERY different meaning than "Become a Real Madrid fan or die". I'm sorry it's hard for you to grasp.
CryptographerOk7588@reddit
Are you stupid? You quote someone and you say what you think it means but never correct the sentence until now and then you start insulting.
But everybody know who those nutcases are and what this flag means and why they do this in the Aya Sophia.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
I literally translated what it means, straight from Greek. If you had taken 2 more seconds to read my comment carefully, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You didn't, and now you're calling me stupid. So now you're blocked. Clown.
kadaka80@reddit
You have misunderstood the phrase my friend. The phrase Orthodoxy or death is not referring towards others as a call to convert them or kill them. It means that we as orthodox people refuse to be violently converted to Islam and would rather die instead. I personally don't like the phrase and I have also drifted away from religion but I know the meaning of this sentence to never have been a call for violence but rather as a call for resistance (usually when the state wants to tax the church😗)
rodoslu@reddit
No thats not misunderstanding, that clear provocation
mantequilla_8@reddit
as a Greek also I’m not sure if the meaning is like you said cause in 1821 the phrase was freedom or death, nothing to do with religion. Sad to see people have so pathetic lives.
kadaka80@reddit
You are not wrong because the Orthodox part was added in the 70's according to wikipedia but the meaning is still a defensive one and a call of resistance to a perceived threat and not a call to violence
mantequilla_8@reddit
If i was in charge of Greek authorities i will do nothing to take these people back. The meaning is super debatable. For me is offensive. I understand if you are not orthodox you will die.
Known_Complaint9577@reddit
then why come to a mosque?
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I just want to point out got downvoted to hell trying to explain there is often a disconnect between what a statement (made from a Turkish perspective) actually means and how it is received at least twice here.
I fully believe and accept your explanation, I also think the reaction and the misunderstanding was entirely foreseeable.
Lothronion@reddit
Are you referring to this? I was not aware of this, it is the first time I hear about it. Could you explain what he really meant with "Easter"? Because I am mostly confused with the first part, "in the homeland of the Turkish Cypriots, those who dream of Easter", I cannot imagine what that might mean.
Indeed. There is a similar case with the "swimming Greeks" phrase, as for Turks it usually refers to the Greek Army's retreat over the Aegean Sea in 1922 AD, while for Greeks it refers to the expulsion of Anatolian Greeks in 1913-1923 AD, or even to the Greek Genocide itself (for example, Greek documents of 1916 AD even use this exact phrasing to refer to it).
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Yes - he is making tough nationalist remarks as is his MO, that part is not surprising, but distilled down he is responding to the recent military build up in Cyprus in relation to Iran and the Israel-lead hexagon alliance, which were received with concern in Turkey, and saying “come and take it.”
He means “if you dream of [bringing] Easter [back] to the land of the Turkish Cypriots [i.e. Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus], it will be your last Easter [i.e. you will die trying in your attempt].”
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskBalkans/s/ravEW6MwrZ) is the first message in that thread, but there is quite a bit of back-and-forth.
About the “swimming Greeks” phrase, I might not apply this thinking to the same extent to it. I find it quite a bit more distasteful, and I suspect some may be celebrating cleansing when they use it, but you’re not wrong that when an average Turkish citizen says this they are not referring to expulsion or genocide, they’re thinking about defeating an invading army. Given that whole encounter resulted in Greeks being cleansed from the geography one way or another though, I'm not sure that is a meaningful nuance.
sazma_2208@reddit
your "friend" and his friends in this post are misreporting what the phrase means on purpose
why do you even bother
kadaka80@reddit
We don't know that and I don't believe it but even if it's true, it's worth putting the record straight for the others who also read it
isohaline@reddit
Indeed, it's worth it. I was passing through this side of Reddit as a non-Balkan non-Orthodox non-Muslim and found your comment to be valuable to understand the context better. Thank you for that.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
Fully agreed.
ohgoditsdoddy@reddit
I just want to point out got downvoted to hell trying to explain there is often a disconnect between what a statement (made from a Turkish perspective) actually means and how it is received or understood from a Greek perspective at least twice here.
I know - why do I even bother?
gimmieshelter_@reddit
I wonder if someone tries opening a flag saying "Islam or death" in a Greek Church, people around will stop to think and debate regarding the nuance of the narrative. That being said, I don't think that warrants an arrest.
kadaka80@reddit
I don't think that has ever happened but besides, regardless of motivation, this kind of move is extremely rude but I agree, I don't think it's jail worthy, maybe a fine for disturbance and a warning at most. What I'm most worried about though is how the media and the governments treat these isolated events and make them appear as much more sinister and threatening than they are in order to stir us against each other. These are times of war after all in the region and I just hope we will avoid going at it again. Enough blood and tears have already been spilt in our history and we don't need more
DnDevrim@reddit
Bro it is all about like Cyprus. So what if we go south Cyprus and claim it is Turkish or, carry a Turkish flag, or in Athens ; what if we Tukrs do this flag thing in a place important for you. Iw would beat them also.
Lothronion@reddit
The phrase is translated "Orthodoxy or Death", and the meaning is not "Be Orthodox or Die", rather "I would either rather be Orthodox or Dead". It is just a rendition of a common Orthodox Christian phrase out of various Saint's Lives stories out of the Turkish Rule, where martyrs who were being tortured for the sake of being converted, would just say that "They were born Christian, they want to die Christian".
In cases where they were persecuted by Papal Christians during the Latin / Frankish Occupation, this would be more clearly stated as "They were born Orthodox, they want to die Orthodox". Often it was also described as "They were born Roman / Greek, they want to die Roman / Greek", though this usually had a religious connotation, as in "Greek Orthodoxy" and the "Rum Millet" as opposed to the Roman Greek nation. Of course, when uttered by an Orthodox Christian Roman Greek it could also have an ethnic dimension as well; for example, in one of the most famous use of that term, Athanasios Massavetas Diakos, who died in April 1821 AD, whose famous last words were "Roman born am I, Roman shall I die", which is later often rendered as "Greek born am I, Greek shall I die". Though there were also lighter versions of that, such as in the Orthodox-Islamic debate between imperial translator Panagiotis Nikousios "Mamonas" and the Vani Mehmed Efendi, the Islamic teacher of Ottoman Sultan Mehmed IV, in the late 17th century AD, where under pressure of the latter to become Muslim, the first responded, "I am born Christian, I want to be Christian".
I am actually against such displays of Greeks in the Hagia Sophia exacly for this reason, that this allows for people to heavily misunderstand this phrase, or even deliberately misrepresent it by twisting it as some sort of motto displaying genocidal intent of the Greeks against the Turks, or of the Orthodox against the non-Orthodox, where it is essentially exactly the opposite statement.
IIIIllllilllil@reddit
If a muslim did the same thing with a flag that says "Islam or Death" on it in arabic people would be losing their minds. Slogans that need page long explanations about how they are actually very peaceful are not very good slogans imo.
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
Well how many Greeks made terrorist attacks then? Is it really the same?
Full-Friendship1@reddit
scanfash@reddit
Difference I don’t remember the last time an Orthodox Christian committed a terror attack in the name of Orthodoxy, tried to establish a Caliphate style state with draconian and discriminatory laws and committing a genocide in the process all this within the last 15 years
carpuzz@reddit
hmm, crusade much?
Temporary_Advance_36@reddit
Byzantine emperor John II Komnenos had good relations with the Fatimid Caliph of Egypt during the Crusades and even tried to conspire against them and delay them as much as possible lol. Crusaders hated and discriminated the Orthodox (and the other Christians)
Belgraviana@reddit
The crusades wound up targeting orthodox Christians in Constantinople, Jerusalem, and Russia
scanfash@reddit
Hmmm, Roman Catholic + started just about 1000 years ago and preceded by 700 years of non stop wars by Muslim invaders into the Levant, North Africa, Spain, France, Persia, South Italy and Balkans and last one about 600 years ago?
Lothronion@reddit
I am not arguing whether it is a good slogan, just the context behind it. "Islam or Death" might not be understood in the same manner as "Orthodoxy or Death" for the simple reason that unlike Christianity and even specifically Orthodoxy, Islam does not have a history of it being spread or preserved during persecutions, massacres and public tortures inflicted onto it, but instead through warfare against others. Which is now Christianity needed a whole century to go from 10,000 to 100,000 followers in then eve of the 3rd century AD, while for that it took about a mere decade to achieve this.
Yildirimf@reddit
You’re conflating conquest, state rule, and religious conversion. Early Muslim empires did expand militarily, but conversion to Islam was historically gradual, not an instant sword-at-the-neck process. Meanwhile Christianity did survive persecution early on, but later it also spread with imperial backing and, at times, coercion. So the contrast you’re drawing — Christianity as a faith of pure martyrdom versus Islam as a faith of pure violent spread — is historically false. It’s a polemical caricature, not an argument.
Sources:
Encyclopaedia Britannica. “Islamic world: Conversion and crystallization, 634–870.”
Encyclopaedia Britannica. “Christianity: Relations between Christianity and the Roman government and the Hellenistic culture.”
Batel_Front@reddit
The Maghreb people suffered under French colonization, which was extremely brutal.
I would also like to know where the Muslims of al-Andalus and Sicily/Calabria are now?
You speak of Christianity as a peaceful spread; ask the peoples of the East what they think of it, or the Native Americans, or indeed most peoples.
LocodocoBamBamBoom@reddit
It’s a language issue and nothing more than that. They shouldn’t be doing this because they have no right to provoke in a different country. I also found the fact that they converted it to a mosque from a museum extremely provocative and wrong but it isn’t my country anymore and I still went to visit as a normal tourist should, quiet and respectfully.
touchgrasslater@reddit
in other words, no woman no cry
tabulasomnia@reddit
if it needs a wall of text to explain it doesn't matter. it's a fascist slogan and it was dealt with appropriately.
Fatalaros@reddit
No it's the whole point of Christianity's martyrdom.
tabulasomnia@reddit
lol, religion. who cares
Fatalaros@reddit
That's the thing, you shouldn't care. It's a matter concerning entirely the religious. It doesn't concern you or affect you.
tabulasomnia@reddit
it's a fascist slogan directed to the community I live in. of course I care.
Volaer@reddit
Dont be silly.
Lothronion@reddit
Have you ever heard of a fascist slogan which is basically a statement of willingness to be tortured to death and slaughtered like a lamp for no other reason than religious martyrdom? This is day and night in difference to similar martyrdom "fetish" statements, like those of the Islamic Republic of Iran, which are always about some form of resistance and dying while fighting. I agree that the way those Greeks used it was tremendously obnoxious, but it is not a threat.
If anything, if I were a Turk and had a Greek guy screaming it to me, and knew the reasoning behind the motto, as I explained above, I might think that the Greek guy is asking me to kill him. Surely, there are some Orthodox Christians or Greeks who might use it in an inverted way, as it is often understood by Turks, as in "become Orthodox or die", but would be the exception to the rule. In actuality, it is closer to the Greek expression "slaughter me, my agha (master), so that I might become a saint", which is often used in Greece to mock the above statement as self-defeating and servile.
Niocs@reddit
ever had the thought that maybe your attention span is just short because all of the brain rot you consume on a daily basis?
tabulasomnia@reddit
let's see how you handle someone shout "islam or death" holding the isis flag in athens. will you be interested in the thousand paragraph essay written by islamist apologists?
fuck religions
Niocs@reddit
I will give you an analogy.
Christian Nation X invades muslim Nation Y. Over time population Y get's killed, pushed out or assimilated. Christian Nation X transforms the land of muslim nation Y, mosques are transformed to churches. Even the biggest and most important mosque of the whole religion is turned into a church. Then some centuries later, remnant people of this Nation Y go to this now church, still having in mind that it once was their most important mosque. And raise a flag writing "Islam or Death".
Also, are you stupid or why are you comparing the Greek flag to the ISIS flag?
tabulasomnia@reddit
I'm comparing fascists to fascists (and the isis flag was the first thing that came to mind for "muslim flag"). no analogy is perfect and focusing on small imperfections in an analogy makes your argument weaker.
as I tried to explain to another apologist in the comments, fascism is fascism. you can cry about history. doesn't make this not-fascism.
Niocs@reddit
this is circular argumentation and emotional bantering
tabulasomnia@reddit
that is what you've been doing, yes.
AntiKouk@reddit
The death it refers to is their own. They'd rather die than not be Orthodox, it's not a call to genocide. It's obviously very nationalist though in the context
tabulasomnia@reddit
who said anything about genocide?
Able-Habit813@reddit
Le fascist fighter
How about asking Turkish about Armenians and Cappadocians genocide? Or its different?
tabulasomnia@reddit
and this, ladies and gentleman, is the idiot fascist doing a whataboutism to desparately cling to the moral high ground they think they have.
Able-Habit813@reddit
Well,i dont think its whataboutism, because this is two crazy people swinging flag and screaming,and other was a real crime against humanity,no?
Or as i asked you,fascism is only what you declares such?
tabulasomnia@reddit
fascism is fascism. what's your point?
Able-Habit813@reddit
Oooh so the turk above lied and exaggerated to make his government look better,ok!
xarexs@reddit
I mean, when someone shouts at you "orthodox or die"; and they are already orthodox and you are not; what would your take would be?
atzitzi@reddit
People who were shouting orthodox or die were forced to convert to Islam by ottoman occupation forces and stating they preferred to die. This is where the flag is from.
Able-Habit813@reddit
The phrase meaning is cleared above, but its strange overall, i would at least ask what they mean by this to nit make conclusions hastily at least
If they shout it at my face - i would make cuckoo sign and go my way
Able-Habit813@reddit
Fucking hilarious how turks downvotes because they don't have response
Safe-Dragonfruit3448@reddit
This flag represents a regime that, during the 1919-1922 occupation of Western Anatolia, was responsible for the deaths of over 640,000 Turkish civilians, the systematic torture of tens of thousands, the forced migration of hundreds of thousands, and the deliberate burning of thousands of villages across Western Anatolia and Thrace.
Lothronion@reddit
The "Orthodoxy or Death" Flag is not the Greek Kingdom Flag.
As for the Greek Kingdom's campaign in Western Anatolia, surely there were various war crimes, which Greece did officially acknowledged, as well as officially apologize for the harmed party, the Turkish State, and offered restitution, which the latter accepted (the territorial area around Edirne, though it was understood that Greece’s abandonment of Eastern Thrace was included in the figure). After that Greece even executed some military leaders for this behaviour, though unfortunately not as thoroughly as it should have been due to the military coups and political instability in the country during the following years. This is unlike some other party which never did that for the methodical and systematic extermination of their ethnic minorities and still uses the very same flag.
As for the 600,000+ Turkish civilians dead, I am under the impression that includes the entirety of the number during the First World War, including fronts like the Syro-Palestine, and also that of the Turkish Independence War, including the dead caused by conflicts with the British, the Italians and the French. And if I remember correctly, it was based on a demographic change, ignoring internal displaced persons and refugees on the abroad as well as how Ottoman censuses were not reliable.
Able-Habit813@reddit
And your flag represents regime that have obliterated 1/3 of Armenians worldwide and even more of pontic Greeks and haven't accepted it until this days,so what?
Im not discussing anything with you
ragazzinbgd@reddit
That's just your violent muslim/turkish mentality going out, it's not about you becoming orthodox or dying, but rather saying I would either be orthodox or dead.
I have never in my life met a single orthodox person that understood, meant or used this saying in the way you think.
Gaelenmyr@reddit
I'm an atheist and I still think what those Greeks did is wrong. This is provocation. I just think this doesn't deserve jail, but a fine and entry ban to Turkey.
ragazzinbgd@reddit
These fellows didn't get any fine or ban, they actually got a new country.
capitanmanizade@reddit
Cry me a river.
Burlotier@reddit
We already do for your future and parasitic culture, the question is when you will realise it and find salvation .
herhangibirperson@reddit
Good good. Continue. Let all Turks see your true face. Continue so Turks who like Balkaners, change their minds. Keep on please, you are doing us a favour
Burlotier@reddit
Let’s say they wake up , what will you do against Russia or Israel ? They won’t be passive on your threats and the latter would take a wrong look as an excuse . Best case Russia adds an another win in its win streak or Israel buys half of your country . Worst case Turkey gets nuked .
Ill_Finger3909@reddit
Win strake is attacking weak post soviet countries and establishing local authonomy zones and throwing your imperialist project and Russia’s image of”unbeatable country”into garbage by having stuck in a battle against a rump post soviet state for 4 years btw
Not to mention all those investments on Syria have gone to waste too.
capitanmanizade@reddit
Balkaners accusing anyone of being parasitic is honestly the most hilarious thing. It’d be even more funny if you are Greek.
Burlotier@reddit
I am Greek and turkey is simply causing too much tension around it even outside the Greek-Turkish issues and perpetuates a problematic fanatical positive feedback that will come out once erdogan leaves from the scene .
And I assure you that countries like Russia won’t remain passive if Turkey tries to pull the bs to them.
Even now the only reason Turkey doesn’t get flick for Cyprus or it being hostile against Greece is due to it being in NATO and overuses its geopolitical position .
I am not saying that Greeks are perfect , we have faults and we get reminded by them daily , but Turkey like Japan has essentially fabricated its own rhetoric . There is a reason Turkey pressures Europe with illegal migration and has both official and unofficial/people promoting things like “we will come one night “ only to use “we are allies so act one!” as a shield, these actions are parasitic and are not of the past but of the present
Perhaps Greece is too passive because the things Turkey does would cause war …which is why I advise for your people to stop while they can before they meet a competent country
capitanmanizade@reddit
Buddy your country is leeching off of EU so I would go easy on the parasite accusations and these things go both ways. Just because your country isn’t strong enough to push for territorial claims in Turkey proper doesn’t mean it wouldn’t once the scales shift which is evident by the Greek governments reactions or lack of it to Cyprus and the fact that Greece invaded Turkey during it’s foundation.
I don’t like the current regime but I wouldn’t want our policy to be any different with our neighbors under a different leadership. International relations isn’t high school romance and our countries have bad blood between them, it’d be idiotic to let go of precautions or capitulate to all actions by the other side and this goes for both countries. It’s up to us, the citizens of both countries to form good relations so these concerns can be washed away in the future.
But why the hell would that happen when you got people like yourself going around and accusing all Turkish people of being parasitic?
Burlotier@reddit
Turkish culture and the current actions of the government are parasitic , I did not say anywhere that your people were as well.
The Greek government is accused of being too passive and subsidiary to Turkey and that is due to the fact it ignores violations and gives away position to Turkey even if it doesn’t have any direct ties to it . And you don’t want to direct the conversation to Cyprus as your country managed to break the law even if it got permission to intervene but that is a story for an another day.
Indeed , international relations aren’t high school romance , something that the Turkish politicians ignore or even downgrade it to middle school logic but you show that not all Turkish people are like that .
There aren’t and won’t be good relations between Turkey -Greece or Turkey with an another country because its core political and cultural foundations are built upon exerting pressure and spreading an identity that lost the reason to exist once none of the archaeological sitings were made from Turkish people (to the dismay of kemal’s gambit) . It is only a matter of time until Turkey pisses off the wrong country and breaks apart upon impact , and that is regardless of how much I want good relations to exist and for the Turks to abandon the negative traits of their culture.
ragazzinbgd@reddit
What are you talking about, you literally came from Mongolia to Anatolia, and then invaded the Balkans, aiming towards Vienna and the rest of Europe.
Do you think the Balkan somehow belongs to you because you invaded it and got kicked out?
You are literally a parasite in your own biggest city which was founded and prospered under those Greeks you find funny, only for you to invade from your steppes and suddenly everyone else is a parasite but you.
You Turks live in such a delusion, something like Americans think they are the only country in the world and everything begins and ends with them.
Greeks, Armenians, Serbs, Bulgarians lived in your lands before you invaded them, and you dare to say someone is a parasite, and it's literally your national pride and national spirit to steal something and make it Muslim and jerk off proudly like you did something.
KillerPalm@reddit
I mean going off of that guy's flair I think he is Greek...
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Thank you for proving my point.
Citaku357@reddit
I mean that's happens when you massacre, rape and expelled people from their homes, after you burn them of course
Bounty_hunter_@reddit
Did Albanians were killed, massacred and raped in Macedonia, as well ? Or you were just paid form Clinton administration to do shit here, as well. Uck is terrosist organisiation so not supreprise their flag is banned.
Citaku357@reddit
It wasn't that expensive tbh
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Yeah, you're the cheapest prostitutes anyone can get
Citaku357@reddit
It's not our fault, you're daddy didn't want to save you guys 😢
ragazzinbgd@reddit
That's that prostitute mentality. Daddy please help, NATO help, USA the legjend, let's build a monument for Bush and Clinton and suck their dicks some more. No shame at all being an American bitch...
ragazzinbgd@reddit
You are the only people that got massacred and expelled, but still grew in population while the people that massacred you got less and less.
You live in Kosovo, I don't since my grandfather was expelled, graves of my ancestors were demolished, and our village became entirely albanian. And you will still cry about being victims.
Albania is not enough, let's take a piece of every single country surrounding you, take half of Montenegro, take half of Macedonia, take the north of Greece, it's a damn shame you don't have any more countries around you so you can invade and steal their land, 4 countries is not enough.
Citaku357@reddit
Nah we didn't take shit, we have lived in those lands before you slavs set foot in the balkans.
xarexs@reddit
Wow, we unironically have a Serbian playing victim for Bosnia. Must be a new internet edgy satire I'm too old to understand...
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Where do you see Bosnia mentioned anywhere? I think you are too old to read, maybe get a pair of glasses.
Reasonable-Summer343@reddit
I think what the Greeks did was wrong, but your country doesn't respect Christianity, they have turned this church into a mosque. And also, if the Turks did something similar in Europe, we would be angry because these lands were never yours for a long time. The Greeks and other nationalities lived on the coast of Turkey for thousands of years.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
“Violent Muslim/turkish mentality”? Dude, you are a Serb 😂
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Yes, my ancestors were breaking into Anatolia for centuries, baptizing Turks and slaying the ones that refused and ruled it for 5 centuries. Or was it the other way?
xarexs@reddit
Naah, you were mercaneries in Ottoman army...
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Yes, by our own will. We approached you and begged to be mercenaries.
xarexs@reddit
Not talking about the jannisaries.
desertedlamp4@reddit
You have pretty high crime rates in Austria
More_Ad_5142@reddit
No actually it was just 30 years ago you attempted genocide against Bosniaks and Kosovars 😂😭
xarexs@reddit
Well if you are already orthodox, naturally it wouldn't mean that to you. What would you think if someone shouted "muslim or die" at you? Does everyone have to know your slogans? Can't you use at least clear ones?
ragazzinbgd@reddit
No one shouts "orthodox or die" at anyone. It's a statement to yourself, like a muslim would say la illaha il Allah to themselves, he's not shouting it at anyone else.
It's clear enough if you know a little bit of history, and how the first christians ended up and with all the beheadings that came later from the Muslims/Turks, so it was said in that context.
They would offer you to either become Muslim or chop your head off, rape your family and burn your village.
And that's where orthodoxy or death comes from, not from threatening someone else but for reassuring yourself.
herhangibirperson@reddit
Serbs being Serbs. No different from your hero Mladić
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
ragazzinbgd@reddit
Kitsooos@reddit
Sigh.
It doesn't say "be Orthodox or die". It says "Orthodoxy or Death". It means "I'd rather die an Orthodox, than convert to Islam." In practice, it's an equivalent of "Liberty or Death".
The slogan itself, doesn't threat anyone. It's a decleration of identity and the will to fight for said identity.
It's purposefully being mistranslated and misinterpretated by some Turks.
That having been said, shouting the slogan in the Hagia Sofia is peak unemployment activity.
I wish I had the free time and money that these people obviously have.
mantequilla_8@reddit
I don’t see any equivalent cause Greece is not a theocratic country and not all people is Christians.
kxnnie@reddit
??? orthodoxy is a foundational part of greek identity. and the church has historically been aligned with the government (in some seasons more closely than others). do we all go to church sunday? no. but we definitely are at a 90% level orthodox. now if you’re speaking about the various non-greek minorities living in greece, they’re separate from all of this as mostly they’re not greek citizens.
vict789@reddit
The people that did this are not only stupid but they should be accused of treason. The choice of the flag they used means that they want to overthrow democracy in Greece and bring back the royal family that were not even Greek in the first place. The fact that they are religious fanatics Is just a cherry on top. No sane religious person would use the phrase Orthodox or Death unless they were a far right pig who cries about immigrants trying to convert them to a different religion by force. Please keep them locked in and if we could send you a few more, that would be great. 😉
mantequilla_8@reddit
As a Greek I’m totally agree with you. That flags should be illegals. You can’t imagine how stupid are some people who has these words as tattoo also. Probably never opened a book in there lives.
Volaer@reddit
Except thats not what the flag says, explicitly or implicitly.
giallonero21@reddit
That is not what the flag says.
atzitzi@reddit
"Orthodoxy or death" phrase doesn't mean "become orthodox or die." Generally, orthodox people don't care to convert anyone. It's more of they themselves prefer to die than having to convert by force. This is what this phrase means. This has its roots in the Ottoman era. Likewise, the greek national phrase is "freedom or death," stating one's preference to die rather than losing freedom. I hope this is clear. These are not death threats.
Yes, I would love one day our most important orthodox cathedral to become a museum or a cathedral again, but this is Turkey's decision, and we must respect. Incidents like that don't benefit anyone.
abki12c@reddit
I'm pretty sure the guards that arrested them didn't notice the slogan "Orthodoxy or Death" which is not the same as "become Orthodox or Die" as some people try to portray it as, which i'm pretty sure was said the the Turkish media and they are just parroting it.
CountryMayhem@reddit
Ok and what about Turkish people raising turkish flags and doing Islamic prayers in front of churches in Germany? What's your take on that? That's not a threat to life for you? It doesnt scream "become muslim of die" to you?
wantmywings@reddit
I am of the opinion that guests should behave according to their host’s culture.
CountryMayhem@reddit
I completely agree
KillerPalm@reddit
A Turkish singer was literally banned from entering Greece last week for singing a nationalist Turkish song.
CountryMayhem@reddit
Good then!
Alvaruk@reddit
That is not what the flag said though, that's what he means he is twisting the facts.
I do not agree with such practices in general from any group but there's no need to lie and twist.
The flag said: "Orthodoxy or Death", and the meaning is not "Be Orthodox or Die", but: "I would rather be Orthodox and if not, then I would rather be dead Dead" its a self-statement, not hate speech towards others.
Cultourist@reddit
The Greek flag calls "Become Orthodox or die"? If this is the case it should be banned anywhere. Even in the Greek parliament.
Self-Bitter@reddit
No thatis bs. Iit is not "Become Orthodox or die" it is "Orthodoxy or death", which is used in a personal way (it translates to "I prefer to die than betraying Orthodoxy")
xarexs@reddit
You can't really blame non-orthodox people for misunderstanding when an orthodox shouts at them "orthodoxy or death".
Self-Bitter@reddit
That is true and I didn't have any intention to defend that lunatic or any similarly crazy religious fanatic . My only intention was to "frame" that phrase..
PoorBoyUnicorn@reddit
No, this is not the case. They just mistranslate for propaganda purposes. During the occupation period, Turks threatened Greeks (and other orthodox peoples in Anatolia and the Balkans) with death when they refused turning muslim. Many succumbed, which easily explains how a nomadic tribe in the 11th century became a solid population over time. The motto just means death is preferable to conversion.
According-Fun-4746@reddit
not like turkey killed millions of greeks and others after ww1 cuz they got mad they lost
desertedlamp4@reddit
They will place us in 2027 US religious watch list now because of this 💀
FrostyAd6883@reddit
Says "let's not twist the facts" and but she continues with twisting the facts. Curious
LaVeriteEstDansLeVin@reddit
I agree these people are cringe and should find better things to do with their lifes but how is this a call to violence lol
TheoKondak@reddit
As a Greek i know exactly this type of people and indeed they are fanatical nuts.
Intelligent-Pie-9498@reddit
I’m Greek and they are stupid .
UltraTata@reddit
Well deserved. Visitors of a country must be respectful.
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
How respectful is turning a museum to a mosque? They had a reason, apparently
UltraTata@reddit
? It's their country
MisterWithTwister@reddit
What about invaders?
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
A Spanish said that. Makes sense.
ImmediateFee4015@reddit
Damn imagine saying that to Greek Cypriots
Ok_Garden_236@reddit
They do this at a lot of places not jus Hagia.
RyuOMad@reddit
Was that really a Greek flag , I heard it was a flag to display the Byzantine kingdom?
HotlineMiami_3@reddit
Give Hagia Sophia back to the Christians
Rexxittr7889@reddit
wel wel wel
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
Put them in jail and throw away the key.
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Remove the Greece from your flaire.
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
Ξιδάκι
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
You are unworthy.
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
Awww really.
And you are the arbiter of who is and who is not worthy to carry Greek flag?
Sure... sure.
Again I would suggest some vinegar.
You definitely look like you need it
Plastic-Cap-7169@reddit
FAFO
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
They should start arresting Albanians that demonstrate albanian flags in syntagma square on the day of independence. I mean it's fair right?
Plastic-Cap-7169@reddit
I mean if there is a law that prohibits the display of Republic of Albania's flag in Syntagma Square which is a public space, then sure why not?
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Man we're not Turks.
slickeighties@reddit
The only people who should be arrested are the squatters occupying the Greek site that was stolen (not the ‘protesters’)
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
They should get banned from visiting. I say this as a Greek…
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
What a noble Greek who cares about his fellow people.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
I care about my people; but that doesn’t need to be at the expense of others. Being proud of our heritage is great, but this is fanatic
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Love your people even with their weaknesses.
Usual_Improvement_43@reddit
That doesn’t mean I won’t criticize them
kvnstantinos@reddit
Stupid fanatics
Ok_Local_3504@reddit
I think our (Turkish) government should allow Greeks to open their flags or do whatever but only in return of a proper compensation. In our national festivals or city independence days, there is always some shows where Turkish soldiers fight Greeks etc. Maybe they could even participate in these shows.
Interesting-Plum4641@reddit
Idiot nationalists , they knew what they were doing they should face the consequences of their action ! I may be Greek but I despise idiocy and fanaticism!
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Not Greek, humanist leftist.
Interesting-Plum4641@reddit
I would not call my self a leftist or a right wing in the traditional way.. I would place me somewhere in the middle with slight right tendencies ! xdd
PlanUnhappy@reddit
I remember the time when Greeks officially protested because a lunatic was shot dead in Albania after he went around shooting at the police, only because he was ethnically greek.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
Yes because they could shoot him but not killed him.Renea have this training but instead they killed him and present it like a warning/trophy
btweenthatormohammad@reddit
Lol, entitlement is in another level, maybe try to be a decent person in another country, and don't defend scums just because they have the same nationality.
I'd be ashamed to protest for a Turkish criminal getting shot in another country by the police.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
I agreed with you ,to be a decent person in another country. If you don't like it leave.I don't agree with what he did but they could injure him and don't kill him, regardless his nationality.He mustn't got an AK47 and run inside the village shooting that's a big no.But Katsifas was shot from a distance from a sniper. All Albanians i know said the same thing. His death was a message/warning to his people and to the Greeks that live there.He made a mistake and he payed it with his life.A young man is gone regardless where he was.
PlanUnhappy@reddit
That's hilarious, police being shot at could and should have caught him without shooting him. Do you even listen to yourself?
Late_Secret3480@reddit
He was untrained for combat. Katie's was shot by a sniper far away.I only say he could shot him to a non fatal point,foot hand shoulder e.t.c.He made a mistake and he payed with his life,but we all know the order police took to handle his situation
PlanUnhappy@reddit
Why would the police risk more of their lives and the lives of civilians when the guy has already shot at the police? You are trying to find a justification only because they are Albanian police and he was ethnically Greek.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
I'll tell you an example.Alket Ritzai(I don't know if I write the name correctly)way more dangerous than Katsifas, criminal, shot police multiple times.EKAM(Police special forces)come and give him warning shots. They could kill him?Yes.They did it?No.He gave himself in and was arrested.I think that Renea could do the same.
Commercial_Handle418@reddit
But he assaulted them and should be contained, he is a threat to society
Bugatsas11@reddit
Please can you keep them there? We do not want them back
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Speak for yourself
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
It's just a flag. No problem with a Turk raising it in a mosque as well.
Maleficent-Ebb1155@reddit
That’s actually really embarrassing. Why do Greeks keep doing this? It’s been almost 600 years, give it a rest.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
It is about winning.
We Turks lost millions of km2 to Russian Empire, majority of Siberia was Turkic and Mongolic before the Russian invasion. We lost East Turkestan to China, Southern Azerbaijan to Iran etc. However, in the end we won a great war and we compensated our lost pride with the Republic of Turkey.
Don't get deceived by the current situation. From 1950 to 2018, Turkiye was one of the richest countries in Eastern Europe (with the exception of 1970 - 1980 civil war, 1994 - 2002 economic crisis).
Greeks and Armenians however did lose very miserably, they came to Anatolia with the dreams of establishing the Neo-Byzantine Empire and their dreams ended with a horrible defeat. Armenians did exist in whole Anatolia and unfortunately they are stuck to a tiny country in Caucasia, their population both in country and diaspora is melting.
Yes we lost but not in the same way with Greeks and Armenians thus, their grudge is understandable. I can't say it is justified to hold it for that long but I can have empathy.
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
Good answer
Ok_Expert7527@reddit
I’m not sure if you’re serious when you make fun of the Armenian population. It’s like a German wondering why Germany’s Jewish community is so small nowadays. Or maybe you guys did absolutely nothing wrong in the 1910’s and they all faded away magically
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
I don't make fun of it. Because we are responsible for this reduction.
My point is, Greeks and Armenians didn't have the same ground to cope with their lost as Turkey.
Citaku357@reddit
Come on now you guys never owned those lands
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Safavids and Ottomans were but, hell the dynasty who overthrew Safavids were Afshars and they literally came to Iran from Yozgat.
For the other parts, no but other Turkic peoples did. If we're going to talk about exactly same ethnicity. The Byzantine Anatolians are Greek speaking Anatolians which is in the same genetical cluster with Armenians, yet Greeks of Greece are just Southeastern European. But they are one nation by language and culture. This is also the same thing for Turkish people, Uyghurs and Tatars.
overbardiche@reddit
Yozgat, now you just making up words
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
Most educated american. fix your healthcare and pay your countries debt before saying "Be quiet or we will give your enemies more money".
OlivesforPresidente@reddit
why americans stick like a sore thumb every where they have a voice is a mystery to me.
overbardiche@reddit
Be quiet or we will give your enemies more money.
OlivesforPresidente@reddit
every penny comes out of american healthcare system is a win to me
EarlGreyKv@reddit
Is that system in the room with us right now?
Kitsooos@reddit
I respect you for using what is probably the most American threat in history.
That having been said, aren't you like 30 trillion or so in debt ?
overbardiche@reddit
Debt is like a chronic but not very dangerous illness. You take some pills to keep it controlled and go about your day.
jschundpeter@reddit
Along this logic Indo-Europeans are all the same
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
No, Indo-European includes Slavic, Latin, Germanic languages.
While Turkic Languages are just Turkic languages, a Turkishman and Uzbek can communicate without problem unlike a Spanish and Swedish person
jschundpeter@reddit
We wuz kangzz an shit
Due-Consequence-1609@reddit
Meanwhile Austrians are just sad, slightly more religiously fanatic Germans lmao.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Tataristan, Bashkiristan Kazan Khanate were all Turkic? East Turkestan is literally called Turkestan? Azerbaijanis are from Oghuz tribe of Turks?
wenzeldashington1@reddit
How would you feel if your country was suppressed for 400 years?
Maleficent-Ebb1155@reddit
Definitely not by going to that country and waving a “become Orthodox or die” flag in a 99% Muslim nation—that’s just stupid.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
The phrase "become Orthodox or die" is not what was written on the flag. No need to lie, we understand these guys are clowns - but the phrase "Orthodoxy or death" is NOT a threat by any means. It's literally used the same way "Real Madrid or death" or "Freedom or Death" is used - as in, I'd rather die if I'm not... an Orthodox, a Real Madrid fan, or free.
Maleficent-Ebb1155@reddit
So I can just go to Greece and go to a random church and wave a flag with ‘Islam or die’?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
It's Islam or Death, and probably no, you can't - not sure but probably not. I didn't claim you can or should be able to. I said it's not a thread. It's a proclamation. It's like saying "Freedom or Death", which is a very common phrase in Greece.
Safe-Dragonfruit3448@reddit
This flag represents a regime that, during the 1919-1922 occupation of Western Anatolia, was responsible for the deaths of over 640,000 Turkish civilians, the systematic torture of tens of thousands, the forced migration of hundreds of thousands, and the deliberate burning of thousands of villages across Western Anatolia and Thrace.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Greece doesn't have any such flag. How do people even come up with this stuff?
Safe-Dragonfruit3448@reddit
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Yeah, what? This is the flag used for like 150 years until 1973. As I said, saying "this flag represents these 3 years specifically when Greeks occupied western Anatolian" is just wrong.
Reasonable-Summer343@reddit
You have killed millions of Armenians and Greeks 1914-1922
KillerPalm@reddit
Does that somehow absolve everyone who committed crimes against the Turks?
Reasonable-Summer343@reddit
No but I want to remember you the atrocities that Turks did when they invaded Cyprus in 1974. Killed and raped dozens fo people and children
KillerPalm@reddit
That’s cool I remember what the GCs and mainland Greeks did to my family in the 60s and 70s too.
wenzeldashington1@reddit
That is tragic, yes. But what do you think it's the victim number of all the Ottoman conquests in Europe? Pretty sure it's couple milions.
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
Can argue that if there was really an ethnicity/religion based surpression as portrayed by some, europe would be full muslim turkish up until vienna gates
almighty_loser@reddit
Greece literally suppressing Turkic minority rn by not acknowledging their chosen religious authority. But yeah Turks could never suffer because we are “barbarian”
orkushun@reddit
Hold up which way around? Turkish Greek relationship is one of many centuries of back and forth gay love. They are a married couple intertwined and right now divided only by the beauty of the Aegean (that name is no coincidence)
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
No need to make a hypothetical scenario. East Turkestan is under Chinese invasion, Russia conquered most of the Turkic states in Asia, Southern Azerbaijan is hold by Iran. But I don't go to Russia with the flags of the Golden Horde, I don't type Russians on internet "Uhuhuhu you guys are not even Asian you Slavs! Go back to Moscow! Uhuhu go do a DNA test you Russian you all have Asian DNA uhuhu! One day we weill take Tataristan and Bashkiristan you Slavs uhuhu"
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
How would you feel if your country was subjugated, your people enslaved, your women raped and your monuments defaced for 500 years? Perhaps it's irrational but it's certainly understandable
CountryMayhem@reddit
The same reasons why native americans keep crying about losing their land 500 years later buddy.
Don't apply a double standard here.
YannisTheStoic@reddit
Please don't send them back.
Interesting_Key9946@reddit
A noble Greek here.
UnhappyBreadfruit607@reddit
Send them to Dagestan 2-3 years and forget.
IhateEfrickingA@reddit
Why people keep doing unemployment activities ?
Doomenor@reddit
Greek here. Please keep them there. We have enough of these nut jobs here.
Future-Actuator488@reddit
And as Turkish, we respect logical and not hostile Greeks and happy to host them. Why these come our country and not proper people
Doomenor@reddit
Most people that come are respectful ones and this is why you never hear about them. It’s always the fly that stands out in the milk.
Exceptionaltomato@reddit
Candy Crush updates can't keep up with their progress so they have lots of free time
Ivory-Kings_H@reddit
I thought It was clash of clans this time.
EpicStan123@reddit
Because they're allergic to employment xD
FantasticQuartet@reddit
The type of Greek that would do this, is someone who has little to no self preservation skills. Is probably racist and homophobic while only going to the church once during Easter, despite claiming to be a good Christian.
The photos they took, wasn't to call for rebellion or anything like that, but to amass internet likes in some cringe-fest Facebook group.
Suspicious-Neat-5954@reddit
As a greek I believe they got what they deserved as the turkish singer did in greece. Disrespectful people should not be respected.
samskinz@reddit
To be fair, Greeks wouldn't be so outraged if Agia Sofia remained as a museum. In the whole city, Agia Sofia is the only Mosque that doesnt allow non Christians inside. I went all around that beautiful city, never had any issues but for Agia Sofia, a place with allot of meaning for Greeks, they cannot enter. They can go only in the Balcony.
With Political moves like this, Greeks and Turkish people will hate eachother forever, the wounds of the past will never heal.
feifii@reddit
I'm sorry but who said that in Hagia Sophia they don't allow Christians? I was there last summer and all you need to buy is a scarf to get inside and that something even my Muslim friend who doesn't wear a hijab has to do
samskinz@reddit
So you didnt pay 50 euros to be allowed only on the upper part, the balcony ? Whilst locals and Muslims, entered for free and had the opportunity to stand on the ground level and gaze up,at the beauty of Agia Sofia ?
If you were allowed to go in then its because your friend smuggled you in.
feifii@reddit
About the upper part, it's literally the same for Muslim people, you have to pay for it. We both didn't want to pay so we took our pics from the ground lol idk where u guys get this news but it's not true
l
samskinz@reddit
Only people of Muslim faith can go downstairs. I am extremely happy for you that you got to enjoy such a wonder but you are the few who get to enjoy it. Either you or your friend claimed to be Muslim or one of you spoke Turkish.
You can search it yourself, as of 2024 non muslims are not allowed downstairs, "Visitors" are to go upstairs.
feifii@reddit
I looked it up now and woah I'm really disappointed I'm Turkish but I'm not a Muslim, when entering Hagia Sophia nobody really said sth. I hope they change it when the one who sits on THE chair goes
btweenthatormohammad@reddit
I'm with Erdoğan for this one, I'm not even a Muslim but I'm glad it's a mosque again.
FssstBoing@reddit
Well deserved.
Καλά να πάθουν.
TheOnurobo@reddit
these kinda provacations should be punished, i cant go into selanik and wave a turkish flag now can i, it was not even a greece flag, it was megali idea flag so arrest was %100 right and from now on since greece clearly supporting and sided with israel, greek tourists should be extra careful with the flags lmao
TurkishEngineer35@reddit
Imbeciles really i am turkish we did stupid thing in the past too such as mehmet ali ağca every nation has imbred imbesiles i suppose.
Different-Joke-197@reddit
Unemployment activity 😂
ab-reg@reddit
Be aware of israeli-backed/planned events. They will try and initiate hatred.
Significant_Judge008@reddit
Now imagine if a Turk said ‘Be Muslim or die’. Everyone would talk about it and the Islamophobia in the media would go crazy
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
They are not arrested for the Greek Flag. They have been arrested because they used to flag of Kingdom of Greece which has invaded Western Anatolia after WW1 which is a declaration of hostility.
It is completely authorized to display the flag of Hellenic Republic and even Byzantine Empire, many people do it and they never got arrested.
abki12c@reddit
This is the flag of the Kingdom of Greece. It is not the same as the flag displayed.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Yes I realized it, their form is similar, it is also reported that there is a slogan "Orthodoxy or Death" was written on it. I don't know exactly to which era it belongs to.
AntiKouk@reddit
For context which is completely lost in translation, the death refers to their own, not genocidal intent. Comes from famous phrases from Ottoman era forced conversions. Doubt Turkish media would clarify though it's far too easy to generate uproar
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Dude, I know. Every nation has such slogans. The thing is it is a custom flag, they made it by theirselves. When you go to an area that is known to be demanded by your people and give poses with a flag, with a national slogan and a royal symbol on it which you made yourself, it no longer is something official. In Turkish we also slogans such as "Who am I to embrace a Turk who doesn't say God is the Greatest?!" made my far-right. If I put Suleiman I's flag with 3 crescents, write this kind of slogan on it then give poses in mosques in Balkan countries it doesn't mean "Hey I come from Turkiye! Look I'm Turkish" it means that I have nationalistic purposes, I'm putting my effort to show off our combined metaphores.
So I agree that this doesn't require imprisonment, they are just idiots looking for some adventure, but it is not the same things with giving poses with your flag. There is no ban on Byzantine symbols or the flag of Hellenic Republic in our country.
AntiKouk@reddit
This
abki12c@reddit
It's custom made, not a historical flag. The slogan "Orthodoxy or Death", which is similar to the slogan "Freedom or Death" that was used in the Greek war or Independence, was first used by the Esphigmenou monastery in 1972, after it cut ties with the Eastern Orthodox Church as a form of protest against the Church's leadership entering into dialogue with Pope Paul VI.
BeautifulNematode@reddit
Isn’t the flag that was displayed the flag that was used under the junta? A Greek cross with no stripes? It certainly seems to suggest both right-wing politics and orthodoxy.
abki12c@reddit
No this is the Junta flag. The flag with the cross is the flag used in the first Hellenic Republic.
pitogyros@reddit
I wasn’t aware of that , so in theory the Greek flag is okay in Aya Sophia ?
What’s also more confusing is how the Byzantine empire is allowed to be displayed considering it was an empire , is it because the flag is used by the church of Istanbul also ?
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Some people done it and it took some reaction but there were no penalty for it, We have photos like that it is technically doable but still people take it negatively. It is like being gay, on paper you can be gay but society is not always okay about it. Byzantine Empire had an enormous impact on Turkish history itself, so their symbols etc are not banned.
The thing is, it didn't happen once, similar things happen every year, some Turkish nationalists also do it in Western Thrace cities where there are a Turkish minority.
The problem is, this guys used (as I learned) a custom flag. The flag that they held isn't something official, it contains slogan "Orthodoxy or Death!" and also royals symbols. It is a flag made up with nationalistic purposes with references to the Greek-Turkish conflict. So according to the penal code it is considered as provocation.
MLukaCro@reddit
Literally the same thing.
BankBackground2496@reddit
I'm not the same man I was 30 years ago, my country is not the same either. Countries change and sometimes they pick a new flag to show it.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
It is like displaying the Turkish flag in Northern Greece cities (with Turkish minorities) and displaying the green flag with 3 crescents, the banner of Suleiman the Magnificent.
This "competition" was always silly in my opinion, by coming to this country you already contribute to their economy, if you really see a country as enemy why you make them earn money hahahaha
BankBackground2496@reddit
Bereket versin, şimdi gel bedavaya yat. 😃
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Wtf?! You speak Turkish, how?!
BankBackground2496@reddit
I could be a Turk from Romania, many of them in Constanta where I grew up. But I have a Turkish wife from Adana. Enişte yani.
My grandfather spoke a bit of Turkish learned while he lived in Northern Bulgaria.
No_Bandicoot_3960@reddit
The minority is Muslim not Turkish!You can see it in the treaty of Lausanne!Of course I don’t agree with their action in the same way I was happy with the deportation of the Turkish singer!As for the fact that your president convert Agia Sofia back to a mosque it was a mistake!Considering that it was a museum and there were enough mosques already around the city!
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
1-) They identify as Turkish. Just compare it to the conception of Arab identity. In the Gulf, "Arab" means descendants of Abu Al-Qahtan, it is a racial term. While in Baathist ideology which is dominant in Levant and Iraq, Arab means "Arabic speaking". After the Ottoman Empire, word "Turk" just meant "Muslim non-Arab citizen". We didn't call Arabs Turks because their title was "Noble Nation.
In Turkiye, we have Arab minority in Hatay, Urfa, Antep etc. When they do DNA test they just Levantine (as Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese etc), they are only remotely Peninsular. But they speak Arabic and their tribes adopted Arabic identity so we call them "Arap Asıllı Türkler" which means "Turks of Arab origin".
2-) Haghia Sophia wasn't a church when it became a mosque. It was a museum. Erdoğan just made it an active mosque again, didn't turn it into a mosque because it already was a mosque. I also think it is just a populist show to his ignorant voters but when he opened it to ritual service, it already was a mosque for 600 centuries.
No_Bandicoot_3960@reddit
The identify their selves as Pomaks,as Gypsies also!It was a mosque for five centuries yes but how can you say that this is not a provocative thing since Ataturk made it a museum!And the Agia Sofia in Trabzon too!I don’t think that a modern nation needs that!
DimitrisDaskalakis@reddit
It's like saying the black-red-yellow flag of Germany and the swastika flag of Germany are the same thing.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
No, they have different designs, plus the flag that they hold had a slogan written on it "Orthodoxy or death!"
Similar incidents took place before, people got mad but nobody was arrested. However, these 2 were very open about what they imply.
Kitsooos@reddit
What ? You differenciate between the flags ? They are all just Greek flags here.
P-l-Staker@reddit
Let me just put up a Nazi flag in the Acropolis then! Won't do no harm, would it?
ugury3806@reddit
Go to China and open Rising Sun flag then.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
The flag they hold wasn't this, the current one. I don't know what date the flag they hold extends to but this is a royal flag.
Lothronion@reddit
The flag of the Greek Kingdom did not have these phrases on it. And even if it did, the current Greek flag (which back then used to be the sea flag) was officially adopted only as far late as 1978 AD, as the flag of the current Third Hellenic Republic. It had been changed before, in 1969 AD, by the Greek Junta of 1967-1974 AD, but it was changed back due to the connection to it, yet it was so popular that it became the standard flag since then. Which means that your statement does not make any sense, given how the land flag of the Greek Kingdom was also used during the 1930s-1950s, when Greco-Turkish relations were very good, to the point that they had even signed a defence pact that Nazi Germany had to go through long legalese explanations on how they were not invading and conquering Greece but merely expelling its Pro-British government, so that Turkey would not feel legally compelled to join Greece's fight.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
I mean it is not the current Greek flag, flag contained slogans and royal symbols but I'm not really sure to which era it extends to.
Lothronion@reddit
There was never an official flag of the Greek State with that statement on it. At the most, there might have been a Greek revolutionary flag, out of the various Greek regional governments of 1821 AD, as they did have written mottos on them, like "Freedom or Death", but "Orthodoxy or Death" is a much more recent phrasing, hence I really doubt it.
Empty-Pace-4228@reddit
Oh I confused the eras of the flag then sorry, either way if you wanna satisfy your national pride you can do it, none of these people were arrested. Since Pontus and Byzantine also had an enormous impact of Turkish history (Turkish literally means from Turkiye) we have respect to their symbols. But sometimes people might use symbols that might be considered as provocation or hate according to the penal cose.
CypriotGreek@reddit
All I gotta say is that I’m very surprised it hasn’t happened earlier seeing how many times it’s actually happened before.
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
people I met dont really care about these stuff. people open greek flags to take photo and its fine no one stopped them. but this time I believe it was a bit more“ orthodoxy or death “ in a muslim majority country is a bit too far. police might arrested them just to protect them to getting beaten up from turkish nationalists.
CypriotGreek@reddit
Yeah, mate, that’s not okay. You can’t be saying that stuff in general, especially in a Muslim country. They took it too far.
FlorianBellicus@reddit
Presumably they wanted to be arrested, so they'll be happy.
onuralpaydin@reddit
I believe this is the flag written Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος, (Orthodoxy or Death) same motto used during Morea massacre against Turks 200 years ago.
What do they expect?
Come, provocate, conquer & kill then go home and post it on IG like a proud nationalist?
Reality; €25 & Arrested.
kokahh@reddit
israel did it?
Successful_Week9211@reddit
That zionist mofos can do anything
Successful_Week9211@reddit
There are ppl are dying and a big war going on besides us, these retardeds opening a flag in a religious place and saying "be orthodox or die".
CommieAlert@reddit
Nationalists of all kind are retarded including christian nationalists, greek nationalists, turkish nationalists
That being said they should just be released as it's not really much of a crime, the official charge is "insulting a section of the public" and I do that everyday lol
Fun_Calendar_6444@reddit
"Nationalists of all kind are retarded including christian nationalists, greek nationalists, turkish nationalists"... Exactly! And they are always the most retarded section of the society. Usually they are nationalist because they think their nation has to feed them!
maxiclass@reddit
Istanbul? I don't know what Istanbul is
Morphe5800@reddit
It was not a greek flag though
jhonnytheyank@reddit
Hagia sophia should be a Museum and turkey has turned to the worse by declaring it a mosque.
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
they did it just to piss of nationalists.
herhangibirperson@reddit
Good. This isn't the first case of Greeks displaying nationalist flags near Hagia Sophia. We have shown too much tolerance. And this flag isn't a national flag neither of modern Greece nor the Kingdom. It's nationalist and the goal is clearly to provoke, and then play victim. He can go to Greece and open his flag there, and should be declared persona non grata.
Now let's watch Greeks, who justified kicking out the Turkish woman for singing İzmir Marşı, take a 180 turn and show their hypocrisy
pitogyros@reddit
If the Turkish law was violated , which I believe it did since this flag as you correctly said isn’t even the flag of Greece and never was.
Plus the slogan “ orthodoxy or death “ is a clear provocation , they got what they deserved , they played a stupid game and won a stupid prize , same case as the Turkish lady who was singing war and nationalist songs in Greece , whoever disagrees with one case and agrees with the other , is a hypocrite
pitogyros@reddit
I know the significance of Kemal in your country or the Izmir marsi , but it has no place in Greece.
Regarding the last part , I find it very troubling to say “ they are lucky some nationalist didn’t stab to death “
Would you accept if I used the justification “ she was lucky some Anatolian Greek who descents from those killed in 1920 massacres , didn’t stab her to death ? “
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
I agree this kinda stuff is stupid, but the singer was there to sing the song to a Turkish minority in a closed community. not greeks. while these people literally there in front of turks which is muslim majority, opening a “ orthodoxy or death “ flag. these people are lucky some nationalist turk did not stabbed them to death and police probably arrested them just to not see them dead by nationalists. both kind of nationalism is bad and corrupt. because of our history, unfortunately :/
Mountain_Rain_473@reddit
You can get warned even for doing peace sign in Istanbul ✌🏾 https://youtu.be/KHlgCn6S5PU
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
it is considered a slogan of PKK. which many countries at Europe, United States and Turkey considers them as terrorists. thats the reason
BalkanTrekkie2@reddit
What law was broken?
St_Ascalon@reddit
They said(or it was written on flag i dont remember) "be orthodox or die".
sazma_2208@reddit
it's "orthodoxy or death" it's some religious slogan in the same line as in "give me liberty or give me death"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodoxy_or_death!
it seems the turkish bots here are intentionally misreporting it as some Jihadist type message
they'd arrest them regardless of the slogan, that's not the point
abki12c@reddit
They parrot what the Turkish media tell them
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
and greeks does not allow a Turkish singer sing izmir march. same thing with this. double standards doesnt apply for you I guess eh?
abki12c@reddit
Hagia Sophia is a Church that was converted disgracefully converted to a mosque like many other churches in Turkey, in the name of a pedo who was forced by a demon to read a revelation as the Hadiths says.
The Turkish singer sang a song praising Kemal who participated in the genocide of the Greeks in Pontus and all over Anatolia.
St_Ascalon@reddit
I find it difficult to understand how idiotic nationalists are. Lol do you expect some random police or citizen to be well versed orthodox history and their entendre. I dont see any goodwill from those guys. Allahu Akbar is also very cool slogan it means god is great very positive lemme shout it out in athens or belgrade... You can take your unemployed provocateurs back to your country.
sazma_2208@reddit
I expect you to not lie about what the flag said, but that's probably too much to expect from a 105 iq perma-online dipshit turkbot.
They'd be seen as provocateurs even if the flag had no slogan. You are shifting the blame on the slogan to make Turkey seem more tolerant. As if the rest of us are as dumb as you and won't see what you are tryina do.
Citaku357@reddit
Even the Russian have banned it
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
Go open that kind of nationalist banner in a priest’s church in Greece if you want. What are you trying to achieve by displaying such slogans in Turkey? And then when you face the consequences, are we the bad ones?
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
It doesn't say "be orthodox" - it says Orthodoxy or death, in the same way people say "Freedom or death" -it's not a threat to others, it's like saying I either wanna be this or dead.
St_Ascalon@reddit
I mean suree buddy. Lemme grab my old regime flag and shout out islam or death(maybe i can add God IS GREAT for flauvor) in Thessaloniki. i'm sure people would support my rights.
People should just get a job lol. Both Greeks and Turks have very high unemployment rates. They shouldn't waste their energy like this.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
It'd be great if instead of hypotheticals you focused on the fact the message on the flag is NOT a threat or even an invitation for anyone to become Orthodox. I'm an atheist by the way, I don't give a fuck about Christianity or Islam - still, this is the fact: People chant "Freedom or death", "Galatasaray or death", whatever like that - it's not a threat. It's a childish, immature demonstration of their beliefs / religion / whatever.
St_Ascalon@reddit
I love your selfproclaimed objectivity man. Your position is" i'm atheist i'm very rational about this topic". Haahhaa master of pathos ethos logos.
Do you expect some random police or citizen to be well versed orthodox history and their entendre. When there are problems between two countries, I view any religious statement as negative and malicious. I would see it that way even if Muslims did it. We can stop the pissing contest.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Stop projecting - I didn't claim I;m rational, I claim I'm telling the truth. This is not a phrase that includes a threat, your mental gymnastics proficiency won't change that fact. I don't expect anything and I don't give a fuck if these guys spend a year in prison or return tomorrow. What I do care about is propaganda and lies, and I exposed yours, and not you're mad.
Angeronus@reddit
I don't agree with the action of my fellow countrymen. I find it to be of bad taste, stupid and provocative. Having said that, i need to tell you that you are wrong about the "orthodoxy or death" interpretation though. It truly is used similarily as "freedom or death", even back then. It just means "i would rather be orthodox or die". It does not imply forceful conversion of non-Orthodox/Christians. It has been said to you already by others, but i think i need to emphasize this myself too. You can't compare it with "Allahu akbar" either because it is not used in the same context. "Orthodoxy or death" is more like a slogan, it is not actually used in our religion. "Allahu Akbar" on the other hand is a religious chant. Muslims say it in their prayers, they say it in their mosques, and yes, some fanatical muslims say it while they commit horrible crimes too. They are two unequal things to compare.
St_Ascalon@reddit
Sure maybe they are equal or not like you just said. But I'm sure your countrymen couldve find another ways(especially more secular) to express their love for freedom in another country.
All this brainstorming reminds me of the Turks whining about how the Grey Wolf symbol comes from Central Asia and that there are no fascists meaning behind it lol.
Angeronus@reddit
There is nothing secular about the slogan "Orthodoxy or Death" and those fools didn't want to be secular. Also, they are not expressing their love for freedom with this statement either. They are expressing their love for Orthodoxy inside a mosque, probably to brag and/or to provoke. A childish action of immature people. "Orthodoxy or Death" and "Freedom or Death" are both slogans, but they don't mean the same thing though.
BalkanTrekkie2@reddit
Ah religious extremism.
prodigioustimekiller@reddit
That's an unusual variation of a flag. Never officially used. It has the base of the old National flag that is currently the Navy flag, along with the eagle of the Greek Orthodox church. This is not the black Epirus eagle as someone said. The "Orthodoxy or Death" is also a fan addition as the original motto was "Freedom or Death". This motto began as protest when the Eastern Orthodox church began talks with the then Pope in 1972. Then became a motto for some Orthodox Christian nationalists especially Russians. It doesn't have any religious or historical meaning in Greece. In this case you have a custom made flag for religious hotheads here. Not very often seen in this iteration. But you can find all sorts of symbols, emblems or signs for shirts, hoodies and if you are really interested in, flags in some enthusiast shops. Not that there's anyone that would fly this type of flag even in Greece without people around finding it unusual or a bit funny.
For Turkish people imagine a Turkish Republic flag but with a clusterfuck of some very religious Islamic symbols added like the Shahada or the Zulfiqar. Which ok extra points for originality, but make no sense in the historical context.
Kindly_Scientist@reddit
they have right to arrest. thats going to my only input.
IWasNotMeISwear@reddit
Its stolen land the original natives are protesting their colonialism
Ok_Alfalfa_979@reddit
And what they expected? Doing stupid things and get stupid adventures.
Dragonchik@reddit
The greeks got exactly what they intended.
Zelladino@reddit
Well in my opinion, jail 3 days deport and never let them visit Türkiye again.
Suspicious_Menu_7137@reddit
I get greek frustration over this, but they are visitors and you should just accept the status quo sometimes. What they did was inapropiate and the Turkish action following this was justified
BarnaclePotential132@reddit
The Hagia Sophia is a difficult place, its provocative, they knew what they did. But then again these ppl are everywhere. @ Turks, be happy its just these two. In Western europe its thousands of mulsim radicals doing this shit in churches.
mantequilla_8@reddit
If i was in charge of Greek authorities i will do nothing to take these “people” back.
OswGeoM@reddit
People are stupid. They say "BE ORTHODOX OR DIE!1!1!1" like sybau. God never said anything like that, you can't go there putting up the GREEK flag, in Turkish territory, with Saint George and forcing the people to follow a religion that they don't know. I understand that some people say, "BUT THAT WAS GREEK LAND IN THE PAST??1?1". Yeah keyword, in the PAST. I don't really care about Istanbul, cuz we don't have to do anything with it anymore. It's gone and we must accept that as a fact. You don't know how much I dislike nationalists who claim they believe in God and say or do such things, and most of them probably insult God, as many Greeks do for some stupid reason. GOD HAS NOTHING, BUT NOTHING TO DO WITH WAR. Like I'm tired man. In fact, for whoever knows greek I'll post this picture of me and some arguing on TikTok on a post about saying "Τούρκος καλός μόνο νεκρός" meaning "A turk is only good when he is dead." It drove me insane.
For non-greek speakers, I said: "I disagree.", he responded with: "Who asked you?" And I told him:
"Joe. No, okay, let's not make such jokes. When you "publish" something, everyone has their own opinion, and since there's this button that says to comment, I have every right to do so. This video is extremely racist. You say "A Turk is only good when dead", but what exactly is wrong with a happy family of Turks? Do you know what everyone does at home? No. You just hate for the sake of hating. I'm talking now, but I don't think you'll understand. I hope you can understand what I mean. Being a warmonger doesn't make you "cool", just a bad person who wants to take lives as I please."
This_Concept9283@reddit
Good
Archi_Tetak@reddit
They just went home, to the biggest curch they made... I don't see a problem here
TheReal_Elite@reddit
I swear religion nationalists make their religion look like a fascist ideology, it’s sad.
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
whole world is swinging towards right-wing. This is concerning
Sea_Gap_6569@reddit
one provocation at a time
itsdoctorx@reddit
Hot Take: Hagia Sophia is a Greek Orthodox Church that was turned into a Mosque.
xxJustforfunxxx@reddit
Small correction it wasn't a Greek Orthodox Church at conception because the Eastern Schism hadn't happened yet when it was constructed:) there was just 1 church.
itsdoctorx@reddit
https://artsandculture.google.com/entity/hagia-sophia/m0br5q?hl=en
xxJustforfunxxx@reddit
I studied Byzantine art and culture while in university;) the differentiation between Catholic and Orthodox wasn't there yet in the 6th century. The growing power of the pope led to a conflict which led to the Eastern Schism in 1054. The Germanic tribes of the 6th century were mostly Arian Christians or pagan still.
shortEverything_@reddit
Built by Justinian - a latin speaker
abki12c@reddit
Built by Isidoros and Anthemios, both Greeks
s11lly_seal@reddit
That's a fact tho it was original built as a church and was then turned into a mosque (after the ottoman empire conquered byzantine empire i think ) and a tourist site later (idk if it still has tours and such)
itsdoctorx@reddit
Way Way Way after the ottomans conquered the Byzantine empire.
It was a church until relatively recently.
s11lly_seal@reddit
Oh okay I didn't know that but you're right it was built as a church despite it being a mosque now I just didn't think it was an opinion its a fact
sazma_2208@reddit
They'll now know better what Turkey is about, and not go spend their money on that country again. Good ending!
yns1899@reddit
What if I had taken the Ottoman flag and said "Islam or die"?
sazma_2208@reddit
go ahead
WaitingToBeTriggered@reddit
FACE THE LEAD!
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
THOUGH YOU DIE!
WaitingToBeTriggered@reddit
WHERE YOU LIE!
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
NEVER ASKING WHY!
sazma_2208@reddit
hmm?
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
Sabaton themed bot
it gets triggered by lyrics
and what you wrote was part of Fields of Verdun
Kitsooos@reddit
The slogan is "Orthodoxy or death" , so technically you would have to shout "Islam or death".
It means "I'd rather die an Orthodox, than convert to Islam." not "YOU become an Orthodox, or I will kill you."
It's kind of a detail and it doesn't really change the dickness of the move, but at the same time it definitely feels like it's being purposefully "mistranslated".
FrostyAd6883@reddit
Sure. Find an ottoman flag, write "islam or death" on it(the correct translation. Not your malicious mistranslation) and go on any original mosque converted into a church to raise it. What about it?
yns1899@reddit
It doesn't necessarily have to be a converted church; if there's a mosque in Athens, would you accept someone flying an Ottoman flag there? If so, then no problem.
yns1899@reddit
It doesn't have to be converted into a mosque how about we do this in a mosque in Athens (if there is one)?
Safe-Dragonfruit3448@reddit
Greeks on here this week were very upset regarding the Turkish Cypriot singer who was banned from entering Greece for singing the "Izmir March" (a song about the liberation of Izmir from Greek occupation).
LOLLLLL
FrostyAd6883@reddit
It's almost as if you're admitting for making up excuses (you mistranslated the flag's message) so that you can retaliate and take revenge.
Sior_Soffritto@reddit
Keep them there, please.
Barbak86@reddit
My take is that you shouldn't go to foreign countries with flags saying "become Orthodox or die". It's the same stance I had for the Albanians behaving like provocative monkeys while passing through Serbia, and the same stance I have for Serbs that get stripped naked by our Police ( upper body naked) when they come with T-shirts sporting Serbian slogans regarding Kosovo.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
The word "become" is convenient for your narrative, but false. It's "Orthodoxy or Death", same way "Freedom or Death" or even "X football team or death" is chanted.
Sigma-0007_Septem@reddit
Right and what does "Orthodoxy or Death" has to do with our religion?
Asking... as you an Orthodox Christian.
Pretty sure Jesus never said to put people to the sword for not following him.
Thought he did kick the crap out of those who tried to commercialise religion
Also comparing "Freedom or Death" to "Orthodoxy or Death" or any ... football team chant is quite frankly an insult
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Yes, because Turkish public and police must know about ambiguous Christian slogans? Jihad actually means inner struggle to find God, but I am sure Greek police would not be bothered if I screamed “Jihad!” Ün the middle of Athens.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
I'm not justifying their actions or blaming Turkish police. For all I care, keep them there, we don't want braindead nationalists over here. I'm saying the phrase does not mean "Become Christian or die" or something like that - Ελευθερία ή Θάνατος is a Greek chant which means Freedom or Death for example - Orthodoxy or Death is said in the exact same way. Again, I'm not saying they should be allowed to provoke people of any other country.
More_Ad_5142@reddit
I see your point but there are so many friendly Christian slogans, like “Christ is Love”, etc that they could go for. My advice for anyone visiting any country would be to simply enjoy it and leave peacefully. That’s what I do when I visit Greece.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
It's obvious the wanted to provoke and ordinary people wouldn't do this shit, you gotta be a religious fanatic and / or nationalist to do that - I'm not denying that, just wanted to clarify the phrase isn't a threat, even though I do understand that in a foreign country where people aren't familiar with such chants it can be perceived as threatening.
Barbak86@reddit
Bro, I don't really care if it's how I thought it is (I just read the translation here on Reddit) or how you explained it is. I don't have a narrative and I don't care. It's the same level of a retarded move to go with an "orthodoxy or death" flag in Istanbul in front of the Hagia Sophia "Mosque", and they deserve whatever is coming their way. I didn't mind when those retarded Albanians saying fuck Serbia got arrested in Serbia either. If you fuck around, you will find out.
The only one with a narrative here is you that assumed that I have a narrative because I'm from Kosovo, therefore I'm Muslim, therefore I must be a lapdog of Erdogan.
yeaaahwehere@reddit
ok, why do you need to go to the hagia sofia and display that? Clearly asking for retaliation and problems.
peak unemployment
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
Oh I totally agree with you. There's zero chance these aren't nationalists that have too much free time on their hands. Still, not sure if what they did is illegal or not, I don't know what the Turkish law bans / allows.
yeaaahwehere@reddit
True, not sure if illegal but it definitely is stupid!
zack_phantom@reddit
Either those two are the biggest idiots in Greece or it was staged by Erdogan to secure votes with the good ol "Greece bad" move
S-onceto@reddit
Why didn’t they bring a Byzantine flag?
Mminas@reddit
There is no such thing as a "Byzantine flag".
The two headed eagle on a field of yellow is the flag of the Greek Orthodox church and the yellow cross on a field of red is the battle banner of the palaiologos dynasty.
S-onceto@reddit
Semantics.
Mminas@reddit
This isn't semantics. It's you making stuff up and me explaining they don't exist.
S-onceto@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_flags_and_insignia
Mminas@reddit
You linked an article that explicitly describes the lack of a Byzantine flag.
S-onceto@reddit
Sure, there weren't fixed national flags back then.
But there's plenty of flags they could have chosen from in that article.
Mminas@reddit
The article has war banners not flags.
There were plenty of fief or house flags in western Europe that would be the era equivalent of a national flag.
The Byzantines used their insignia and sigils on sculptures, architecture and clothing and didn't fly flags.
War banners were used for unit coordination during combat.
Mminas@reddit
The article has war banners not flags.
There were plenty of fief flags in western Europe that would be the era equivalent of a national flag.
S-onceto@reddit
Byzantium ≠ Greece.
mgs112112@reddit
Certain country somewhere there specifically operates creating chaos around them so they can become the “sphere of stability”. Not saying this could be it, but certainly its a small possibility.
And the data is all out there.
RasyonelRumi@reddit
If Isin Karaca’s entry to Greece was denied for singing İzmir Marsi in Komotini and Greeks find it reasonable which I have no problem with. I think this is reasonable as well.
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
So, if she had been allowed to enter Greece you would be against this arrest?
RasyonelRumi@reddit
No, that’s not what I am saying. I am saying if you think that was right, you don’t criticize this
Defiant_Being_9222@reddit
Well, at the end of the day, no matter what someone thinks about the first incident, nothing would change when it comes to your opinion of the latter. So, this is completely irrelevant. The only thing that would be different is personal hypocrisy.
EddieDexx@reddit
I got a feeling these two arrested are working for a different white and blue flag, with a hexagram on it. Who wants to instigate hatred between Greeks and Turks because they want (USA) to bomb Turkey
Beautiful_Map_9589@reddit
As a Greek, I believe that they got what they deserved. We recently blocked the entrance to Greece for a Turkish singer who sang songs about Izmir (rightfully so). Both nations are stupid enough to keep the flame of nationalism alive. That's how the rich get richer and Greece has Mitsotakis as a prime minister for 1000 years. Long live nationalism. Now bend over. The capitalists wanna have a piece of your as*
alababama@reddit
This is how we keep funding rich countries by buying expensive weapons from them, weapons pointed at each other and that will never be used. At the same time, our schools, hospitals, bridges, roads are rotting away, but who cares we have the latest Fxxx fighter to "protect" the Aegean. How about forest protection? Of course not...
Big-Object4201@reddit
Yeah we see how it goes! It's been the case for decades. We've been told that we need that Jetfigher and tis rocket and etc because the Greeks are watching. America and other major weapon manufacturing countries turned both our countries a plaything.
Buy this because Greeks already have it in numbers! "OH GOD lets spare another couple billion"... And as for the Greeks the same story. I'd totally agree on to ensure peace yes we all need a reliable and capable army. World is more dangerous place than ever. There's nothing with that! Even compared to cold war era AND yes we need to fund the army but at what cost?
If that cost is neglecting myriad of social problems and infrastructure then hell no sir!
alababama@reddit
I think we can abolish or curb by 90% the Aegean Army and Greeks can do it too. I dont think we can get rid of our Eastern armies but western armies are not needed at all.
BankBackground2496@reddit
Amen to that.
desertedlamp4@reddit
At least the singer did it in private surrounded by Turks, y'all only knew about it because it was filmed and posted online, these Greeks were provoking people openly in public
Mminas@reddit
It's not "in private" if it's available worldwide through the Web.
Big-Object4201@reddit
Nationalism been always such a useful tool to fuel hatred by right wingers to either consolidate their voting base or to distract people of their misery and real problems. Wave the flag, curse "the enemy" and your life will get better and you'll forget about every real thing that hurts your wallet and quality of life. Those people are stupid and dangerous. As a Turkish dude I feel you and totally share your sentiment.
Radiant_Put_3609@reddit
Bright_Battle9080@reddit
That's the flag of Vorio-Epirius but I have to say something at our south-southeast neighbors will take a shit
Prod_Meteor@reddit
Still living with flags you primitives?
Careful-Evening-5187@reddit
Istanbul? Where's that?
Is it near Constantinople?
Dear-Ad1582@reddit
I'll check later... I run of popcorn.. This has thr opportunity to become the most Balkan thread.
Tkemalediction@reddit
If we Italians acted like that about every Roman relic currently sitting in a different country, we’d be as globally disliked as MAGA supporters.
(Some) Greeks really seem oblivious to the fact these things happen in history.
Impossible_Yogurt734@reddit
Didn't happen. But they deserved it.
According-Fun-4746@reddit
>non natives get mad at natives
wow
HYBRIDLqTHEORY@reddit
It's just a Greek flag
Objective-Expert771@reddit
its not
Particular_End_4917@reddit
If someone deklare: "Be Orthodox or die" and showes a fascistic era greek flag- thats not good. This is pure provocation
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
no, this isn't a threat. It's the exact same as "Freedom or death" - which means "I'm gonna be either free or dead". It's not a threat to anyone that if they don't become free or Christian they'll die lmao
Safe-Dragonfruit3448@reddit
This flag represents a regime that, during the 1919-1922 occupation of Western Anatolia, was responsible for the deaths of over 640,000 Turkish civilians, the systematic torture of tens of thousands, the forced migration of hundreds of thousands, and the deliberate burning of thousands of villages across Western Anatolia and Thrace.
abki12c@reddit
This flag has nothing to do with that and it says "Orthodoxy or Death" not "Be Orthodox or Die". Stop with the bs propaganda.
OhWellImRightAgain@reddit
There's no such thing as a separate Greek flag representing specifically the regime responsible for the occupation of Anatolia. There are multiple flags that have been used throughout the last centuries and this is one of them.
Lumpy-Tone-4653@reddit
I swear to god this happens every weak
riquelm@reddit
Kad se vojska u Konstantinopolj vrati.... oh, too long, I'll go and take a nap
fiorakc@reddit
they would've been rewarded if that was a fuck ass k*rdish flag
AcceptablePromise242@reddit
It's a flag, no different than Palestina flag. If they carry a Palestina flag, they were heroes.
Plus-Organization-96@reddit
idiots
MariusBerger832@reddit
Got wat they deserved
TheCharalampos@reddit
People disturbing the peace in a temple get arrested for doing so? Yeah sounds about right.
Late_Secret3480@reddit
As a Greek I think it's unnecessary thing to do.You provoke Turkish people for stupid reasons and you will be installed if they do the same here
Busy_Pea_1853@reddit
Let’s bomb Athens, with water festivals this summer… just a couple of stupid ppl, in turkey we got many of their type too
Super_Sherbet_268@reddit
Why do non practising christian turn into hardcore christian nationalist when they see muslims.
Serious-Positive-292@reddit
I think waving a Greek flag around in a stolen church on stolen land is nowhere near as bad as what the Turks did when they acquired the place (rape and kill women in their place of worship).
Chez50@reddit
They got off lucky, try raising the Kurdish flag and you'd get mobbed.
KillerPalm@reddit
"How can I make this about the Kurds"
Not everything has to revolve around them.
Chez50@reddit
In other words: Stop exposing my country
KillerPalm@reddit
I'm not even from Turkey.
But we don't need you lot barging into every thread to make it all about you and trying to farm for sympathy.
Especially when you've also been carrying out Cultutal Genocides on us TCs along with your fellow mainland Turks.
3ii3i3k3k3i8s@reddit
Nahh especially in modern Turkey if you raised the Kurdish flag our stupid politicians would start sucking your dick
Chez50@reddit
Apo/ DEM are working to further Turkey's interests, not Kurdish interests. They could've established a state in Northeast Syria but refused. Even in Iran PKK/ PJAK said they don't want to carve out a country once Iran collapses, they want Iran to stay whole and under Persians.
The recent raising of the Kurdish flag is just to stop Kurds from getting suspicious. Listen to old Apo interviews, the guy was a Turkish nationalist. He literally said he doesn't have an issue with the unitary structure of Turkey.
Borisb3ck3r@reddit
Im greek and this was the appropriate response
consistentfantasy@reddit
pure fafo
Legitimate-Glove5126@reddit
My beautiful Greece has a huge persona non grata list of people for doing far less than this.
DnDevrim@reddit
I will visit the Pembe Köşk with a flag written on it like obey or die.
SneakyInfiltrator@reddit
I mean, is it hard to not be a dick and have some basic decency?
ElephantSudden4097@reddit
They were able to come to Turkey visa free and to have great time, but they decided to do this instead.
yalnzaylak@reddit
damn bro thats crazy
Battlefleet_Sol@reddit
Following a country’s rules is a fundamental responsibility for every tourist; if you don’t follow them, you must accept the consequences. If I don’t go to Athens and raise an Ottoman flag at the Acropolis or tell people to convert to Islam or die, then Greeks are also obliged to respect these boundaries.
AttentionPlayful5280@reddit
Hagia Sophia is Bulgarian. I rest my case. <3
More_Ad_5142@reddit
The Horde has spoken, all other opinions rejected!
DriveByAtanCivciv@reddit
Like wtf is even the point bruv 😭 and they r old ass fucks to
InternationalPie1306@reddit
19 day old Account posting strange stuff SMH
EvilInGood@reddit
This was on the news and actually happened.
Final-Nebula-7049@reddit
Pretty dumb inflammatory move
DarkWandererAmon@reddit
Wouldn't be surprised if Erdoğan organized this, since he needs new theatrics to distract his voter base, considering his charade of "attacking Israel" won't do much...
Univer001@reddit
No sympathy for these idiots, they knew what they were doing and what would happen.
FantasticQuartet@reddit
I cringe at people like this. I think putting them in jail is too much, but I can't blame Turkey if they ban them from entering the country.
Substratas@reddit
Greeks:
https://i.redd.it/3ljltl2vgcvg1.gif
Distinct_Cod2692@reddit
mmmm turky
BlackWicking@reddit
That people on Reddit do not recognize such accounts as google account for their llm
DarkwolTR@reddit
They were not arested they were detained, they will most likely be kicked out of the country after talking to police. Try saying heil hitler in tel aviv see how that acts out.
Crazylawyer80@reddit
They were fucking idiots and they deserve the "Oriental Express" experience
Ujemegaz@reddit
Fussy authorities.
Ill_Potato2514@reddit
I should start opening flags in Cordoba
oerwtas@reddit
I think both posing with flags and arresting people for it are stupid equally.