Why do UK homes not have cellars anymore?
Posted by StillTrying1981@reddit | AskUK | View on Reddit | 132 comments
I grew up in a home with a cellar. Many of the older terrace style housing my friends lived in had cellars.
Is there a reason beyond it being an extra effort/cost that they stopped building houses with cellars?
HMS_Hexapuma@reddit
Is there a reason beyond it being additional cost? No.
A wall built underground has the same costs as a wall built above ground but the room also needs the cost of excavating an area larger than the final space and fully waterproofing it. If you get the tanking wrong then it's a real pain to fix later. Plus a lot of underground spaces were used for fuel and food storage in a time before electricity and gas and refrigeration. We now have those so there isn't really a need for cellars any more.
But honestly, it's mostly the cost.
windymiller3@reddit
> A wall built underground has the same costs as a wall built above ground
no it doesn't. walls below ground need to retain tonnes of earth...
depends on a lot of factors, but even in some of my new builds, you're looking at least 3x times the cost.
Dankbudz69@reddit
The 3x cost doesnt surprise me, we used to live in a victorian terrace with a basement floor and those walls looked to be at least a foot of solid bricks thick.
Flyinmanm@reddit
Exactly.
phil24_7@reddit
Food was more than likely stored in a vented pantry, not in a moist, mouldy cellar. đ¤ˇđťââď¸
Limp-Talk-5383@reddit
You donât necessarily need to waterproof it. Iâm in a Victorian terrace with a coal cellar and itâs great. A bit damp and you get a couple of inches of water in a couple of times per year, but we keep the alcohol, tools, paint, recycling bins, kids bikes etc down there. Really useful extra space.
AdhesivenessLost151@reddit
Also in a Victorian terrace. Ours is similar, but getting bikes in and out is a total pain. My âgoodâ one goes in over winter but other than that I can be bothered with manoeuvring them up stairs designed for one person with a coal bucket.
PeaIcy760@reddit
A couple of inches of water inside your house doesn't seem like a OK thing but I'm no surveyor
gracklemancometh@reddit
It's outside the envelope of the house - cellars like that aren't habitable spaces and should be insulated from the living quarters.
Brick built Victorian terraced houses pretty much all have a space under the ground floor floorboards that's open to the elements and ground water. In some cases this is a short crawlspace, in others it's a full cellar. Some have been tanked and insulated to make habitable spaces.
It's like a cold roof loft space but under the house!
Sburns85@reddit
Depends on the soil. My area is very heavy clay and water table would flood most cellars
Cow_Launcher@reddit
Not to mention all the developments that are being thrown up on floodplains these days.
"Why's this land so cheap?"
"Iunno. Must be our lucky day or somefink."
Force-Grand-2@reddit
Belfast is built on a swamp.
metal_maxine@reddit
(Central) Dover is built on squishy stuff from where the estuary/ natural harbour filled in with silt. Mum worked in a shop and the basement storage was always wet.
CodeToManagement@reddit
Building a cellar costs more money. If a new build has a cellar you can sell it for a bit more but the extra time it takes to dig all the cellars in for the houses isnât worth the little bit extra youâd make. Itâs better to bang the houses out fast and move on to the next one.
Nobody is really saying they wonât buy a house because of no cellar so itâs a non issue for developers.
IrrelevantPiglet@reddit
In a lot of places on our damp little island it would be impractical to build a cellar without risking leaks or flooding. People don't tend to go for all-natural temporary swimming pools in their homes, so we don't build them.
Alexander-Wright@reddit
Though larger Victorian homes were built with cellars to prevent the damp from rising up to the living spaces, in addition to the storage and, often, kitchens that were placed there.
CyberGnat@reddit
"Rising damp" happens when there is no damp proof course, or it has been bridged accidentally. The Victorians (and Georgians etc before them) knew they just had to lay a course of slate (which is impermeable) on the walls (made of porous, spongelike brick or stone) once they came up above the ground level. They didn't bother when they built coal bunkers and other structures that were never intended to be occupied. This includes a lot of cellars too.
Most "rising damp" problems are because people don't understand how buildings work, or are trying to sell a profitable magic solution to a problem. Either someone has tried to convert a non-habitable structure into a habitable one, or the ground level has ended up rising above the level of the damp proofing (e.g. if the pavement outside slowly rises over decades as the council relays it a few cm higher every time, or someone decides to tarmac over their garden for parking).
simonps@reddit
Or radon accumulation.
nobodyspecialuk24@reddit
Building underground has become quite the enterprise in London, where they canât easily extend their home out or up.
Everywhere else, itâs not worth it, as others have pointed out. The benefit you got is no longer needed, so the extra work and risk gives you little unless itâs your only option for expansion.
Krismusic1@reddit
One of the quickest ways to piss off all your neighbours is to have a cellar dug.
Jassida@reddit
How do you know theyâre called Dug?
Krismusic1@reddit
Very good. ;)
Master_Piccolo_9178@reddit
He's got a spade on his head.
Krismusic1@reddit
Excellent.
nobodyspecialuk24@reddit
Thanks for the tip đ
hhfugrr3@reddit
Interesting that lots of people are saying that cellars were there for coal and wood storage. I've no idea if that's right or wrong, but just doesn't match up with my (very limited) experience of cellars. As a kid, we had a cellar in our house. It extended the whole length of the house and could only be accessed via a ladder after lifting a hatch in a cupboard. If it was for storing coal then it wasn't well designed as there was no way to get the coal in except walking ti through the house and then the opening would have made getting it in and out quite hard. Not to mention that this was a late Victorian terrace in a poor area of London so nobody would have been likely to be storing that much coal or wood.
The other one was a huge cellar under my office in hackney. I'm sure there would have been access into it from the street at the front once so coal deliveries would have made sense and it was built as a townhouse for a well off family I reckon so it makes sense that the cellar would have been used for something like that once upon a time.
Lau_kaa@reddit
I used to live in an Edwardian terrace and there was a coal chute from the street to each cellar so the coal could just be tipped down into storage. There were also proper steps going down to the cellar from the room under the stairs behind the kitchen.
The Victorian terraces in the same area also had coal chutes so I assume they worked in a similar way.
Lau_kaa@reddit
They used to be used for cold storage and coal storage. Neither is relevant for most people now.
APiousCultist@reddit
More structural concerns, hard bedrock in many places, radon gas, and ultimately it serves little purpose. No one needs a climate controlled space now that we have fridges and we can more easily build tall buildings.
Tirno93@reddit
I think they were built for purposes we donât really need any more like storing coal and keeping food at lower temperatures. We donât need that any more so donât bother going to the extra effort to keep out the damp etc
Pocket_Aces1@reddit
And a good place to hunker down during attacks like the blitz, if you weren't able to get to a dedicated air raid shelter.
I always think it would be nice to have one for a home gym (less noise transmitted to neighbours, usually cooler which is good for working out, etc), but they seem more hassle with potential damp issues, structural issues, etc. and the fact that placing one in an a preexisting house isn't very fun to try and do, both labour and costs for it.
Whulad@reddit
I donât Victorian builders were anticipating the Blitz
Master_Piccolo_9178@reddit
But they weren't built for use as air raid shelters, so that has nothing to do with why they used to build them or why they don't anymore, which was the question.
PassiveTheme@reddit
Yeah, I can't imagine they were building a whole lot of houses during the blitz. The houses that had cellars could use them as air raid shelters, but they weren't being built for that purpose. I guess some new houses after the war may have had cellars included with that in mind, but to my knowledge the post-war building was focussed on getting enough houses for people to live in and was mostly done fairly cheap.
Powerful_Balance591@reddit
Would be great to turn into a hidden sex dungeon, turn a bookshelf into the hidden stairwell or something. I really want a cellar
Saotik@reddit
I wish we could all go full Colin Furze and build networks of concrete-reinforced tunnels and bunkers under our houses.
Saintly-NightSoil@reddit
I'm with ya!
Pocket_Aces1@reddit
I'm still surprised he got planning permission for that initially tbh...well...when he begged for mercy that is
Can't wait to see it finished with the turntable and lift
ARobertNotABob@reddit
My Nana was bombed out twice, the second time she had to be dug out from under the kitchen table in the cellar.
Wild-Individual6876@reddit
Because we have fridges
RustyBucket4745@reddit
We don't need to store coal.
thisisgettingdaft@reddit
Speak for yourself. I still have mine poured in down a shaft from the front pavement with a metal cover.
dmc1972@reddit
I do it's cheaper the electric and gas.
dpwtr@reddit
Then get a house with a cellar.
dmc1972@reddit
I do. It's got coal in it.
gatoStephen@reddit
It all changed after Fred and Rosemary West.
Gornal-Annie6133@reddit
My house (built in 1863) has two cellars which are below street level at the front but open onto our garden at the back. House is built into a hill. Our kitchen is in one and dining room is in the other and we have a large conservatory leading from the kitchen.
Our house is a three storey house now and we hardly ever use the two living rooms at street level.
getoutthesink@reddit
We live in a lower ground floor basement flat of a Victorian conversion. No big issues with damp thankfully.
Ground levels on front and back aren't too high so it's essentially at its own ground level. Ventilation, lime plaster. It's colder and darker than living on higher floors but that doesn't bother me. Huge space as well and our own front door.
Onetap1@reddit
In the 18th and 19th century, when building houses, they used to make the bricks on site using brick clay excavated from the footings and cellars, if the clay was suitable. It was a common practice in London, using the yellow London clay to produce yellow London stock bricks. At some point, the transport infrastructure improved to make it cheaper to haul in bricks from further afield.
Cellars were mainly used as coal stores or as basement accomodation for servants.
Joystic@reddit
High frostline means there's no need to dig that deep to prevent heaving, and if you do dig that deep you're at increased risk of water penetration. Clay is much harder to dig into.
Basement foundations and the UK are not a good fit.
No-Television-9862@reddit
Nothing good ever happened in a cellar
Tashimo@reddit
I live in the literal swamp. Think it would be a disaster a cellar.
BalianofReddit@reddit
Alot of them that existed in older houses up north were filled in in the 60s, 70s and 80s
From the people ive asked its mostly about the damp, heating and maintenance costs.
I imagine its a similar case for most of the country.
SB-121@reddit
Modern basements tend to be more common in countries which have a tradition of self building which of course the UK doesn't.
acryliq@reddit
It's often a question of how deep your foundations needs to be dug. If the ground you're building on, or the construction technique you're using, requires you to dig deep enough anyway, then it's cost effective to put a cellar or basement in that space while you're at it - foundations don't take up the full square footage of a building, they're more like concrete walls sunk into the ground that the rest of the house is balanced on top of, so the space between those walls can be used as extra underground living space.
But most new build houses don't need foundations that deep. The minimum required depth to be below the frostline in the UK is only 450mm, so you're only digging deeper than that if you're building on soft or unlevel terrain. To be comfortable, a habitable room needs a ceiling height of around 2.2m, so if you're not already digging deep enough when putting in the foundations, it generally isn't worth digging deeper just to put in a cellar, because it's extra cost to excavate and sink deeper foundations.
This is why basements are more common in houses in colder climates, where you need to dig much deeper to have your foundations below the frostline, such as northern US states, Canada and some northern European countries.
Modern building regulations will also require basements to be properly waterproofed, have windows and adequate ventilation, alternative fire escape routes etc. which are obviously all much more difficult with an underground space, so it generally just isn't worth it.
charlottedoo@reddit
Theyâre expensive to build. Lots more rules and regulations and whatâs the point?
Fantastic-Dingo-5806@reddit
No need in them, constantly damp and awful too.
foxfunk@reddit
In the Georgian terrace I lived in there was an old basement room, it had a lot of the mains electricity and such. Most of the row had been converted into student flats, but the basement had been hollowed out into this huge sprawl of gutted empry rooms. There was even an old fireplace down there. Mega creepy vibes though.
StatisticianUsual471@reddit
I love one for my own personal reasons
phil24_7@reddit
Cellars served many purposes. Some were coal cellars, some were to take up the difference in ground level when houses were built on a hill. This allowed moisture from the retaining wall, and from the ground, somewhere to mingle before being removed by the air vents.
Modern building methods don't require this kind of moisture management anymore and ground levels are sorted my massive machinery before the houses are built. Cellars are also dead space as far as a houses value is concerned, so they'd much rather have another floor, or a garage now.
another_awkward_brit@reddit
Cost and damp.
ARobertNotABob@reddit
Quite apart from the original use of basements being no longer relevant, people want rooms to have windows, air circulation etc., and a basement simply doesn't.
Banes_Addiction@reddit
Storage space doesn't need any of that stuff.
ARobertNotABob@reddit
You store stuff, in a cold, damp cellar at your own risk, especially long-term.
Cardboard boxes and even wood will collapse, rot, gain infestations, textiles are consumed, various yadas ... it's worse than in your garage.
Of course, if you're a wine connoisseur, it's perfect for your case of Chardonnay.
SubstantialLion1984@reddit
Itâs not that hard to have the cellar tanked. I have absolutely no damp in mine and itâs a terraced cottage built in 1810. My neighbours all use theirs as snug living rooms that are easy to heat yet stay nice and cool in our more frequently sweltering summers.
Jassida@reddit
Mine kind of does. It has a window under garden level. Itâs great in summer, stays really cool
ARobertNotABob@reddit
TBF, my first house when I got married had one at the front, converted from what would have been the coal chute.
UnSpanishInquisition@reddit
I just want somewhere to use as a root cellar, my garage gets to hot in summer as its a metal roof and the two inbuilt cupboards have hot water pipes and a tank in them so dont stay cold all year.
DECKTHEBALLZ@reddit
Because they are for coal or in coastal areas for fishing nets.
Kaliasluke@reddit
Most of them never did - my mumâs house is 150 years old and it didnât even have proper foundations, never mind a cellar. Much of the country is built on clay, so cellars/basements are a recipe for damp.
WorhummerWoy@reddit
We've built too many cellars now and the ground is unstable, if we build more cellars, the UK will collapse.
CooStick@reddit
They were called coal cellars.
RoutineAbroad3486@reddit
The ideal man cave space is nearly extinct
msma46@reddit
Not here in New England! Basements are the norm here - the ground freezes deep in the winter, so they have to dig a deep foundation, might as well make the hole into a room. Mine has my workshop in it (with a few steps up to a door out into the back garden), and beyond that is a cozy snug with a working fireplace which I used as a home office. Buried in the floor is a French drain to keep it all dry.Â
StGuthlac2025@reddit
Round my way it's due to radon gas.
msma46@reddit
This can be fixed. My previous house had a Radon Mitigation System - a short pipe buried into the basement floor leading up and out the wall. A little fan in the pipe ran 24/7.
beernon@reddit
What parts? Does it seep out of the rock?
StGuthlac2025@reddit
https://www.ukradon.org/information/ukmaps many parts of the country. From what I know it comes out of the ground and pools in lower area's in houses.
macman501@reddit
I lived in 5 different houses in Germany growing up, all built post WWII. They all had cellars with rooms that matched the layout of the ground floor. They weren't damp but I guess would have significantly added to the cost of construction.
ZaphodG@reddit
The ground freezes in Germany. Water expands when it freezes. You need a foundation deep enough so itâs not destroyed by freeze-thaw. At that point, itâs not much more expensive to have a cellar.
HeyDugeeeee@reddit
Our cellar, or 'the wine cellar' as I like to call it is fab. Obviously its a damp spider filled hole but I love it.
SixCardRoulette@reddit
They were mostly necessary to store coal/firewood and to keep food cool, before gas and electric heating and fridges were common. In practice they were also used to store your rodents and damp.
InitiativeConscious7@reddit
They were originally for keeping food cold without a fridge/freezer, after that they stayed either just for general storage or tradition. Alot of storage space has disappeared from modern homes unfortunately
Used-Ad9589@reddit
It's more a down south thing, where the staff would reside, coal etc. none of that typically applies anymore so they don't bother making them now, plus the additional expense
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
They were really popular in the north too. It's more of a victorian thing than a location thing.
Used-Ad9589@reddit
Yeah with the rich, holiday homes etc
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
No, usually with the poor rather than the rich. Lots of small terraced houses with cellars.
Used-Ad9589@reddit
I didn't really think about that. I guess larger families or house sharing etc were a thing back then.
Thanks for the info
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
They were used for storing coal. The houses were small so they had a coal cellar below ground, the coal could be shovelled in from the street.
Jassida@reddit
No way mine is for coal. We have a man outhouse that was the coal cellar
ProtoplanetaryNebula@reddit
Not all of them were of course.
Used-Ad9589@reddit
Yeah that does make sense.
EmFan1999@reddit
My parentsâ house was built on a slope in the 1930s and thatâs why it has one.
These days they slope the garden up to be totally useless instead of bothering with a cellar to level the house it seems
Jassida@reddit
Interesting. My house is on a slope and has a cellar. The front garden is in three tiers.
It would be a bit boring if it just sloped up
FloofyRaptor@reddit
I live in a Victorian terrace on a hill. No cellar. We are completely surrounded by other Victorian terraces and I cannot work out why some streets have cellars and others don't; they are all on a hillside.
Puzzleheaded-Key2212@reddit
In old Victorian Terraces and Villas they served a practical purpose.
It was often where the kitchen was in some houses. My aunt and uncle lived in Leeds in a Victorian Villa and it originally had a kitchen in the Cellar. There was still a large terracotta sink and a black cast iron stove fitted in the chimney breast. It was also accommodation for a house keeper or maid.
Jassida@reddit
This could explain my house. The kitchen pantry is very small and now serves as a route to the kitchen extension and access to the cellar.
Thereâs coat pegs and an airer but otherwise just some extra space to access the dining room.
I honestly donât see what use it could have although our house was initially part of the house next door and there was an inner door joining the two halls originally
My cellar is now my darts room/PC room
GrownDandilion@reddit
People are struggling to afford renting a single room in a HMO and you want a cellar! .. if a house had one it would instantly be coverted to a open plan apartment and rented out in its own right.
ackbladder_@reddit
Did you grow up on a hill? A lot of terrace style housing in Brighton for example have cellars where they mightâve been cheaper to install
StillTrying1981@reddit (OP)
No dead flat. Just an old Victorian era house.
mattcannon2@reddit
Easier to dig to flat rather than stabilising a new mound you've just created
FireFingers1992@reddit
Bought a flat two years ago, ground floor of an old Glaswegian tenement. Was chatting to a neighbour a couple of weeks ago and he told us we have a basement! Apparently previous owner just put flooring over the access hatch! Mad to have that and not see it mentioned anywhere.
Contact_Patch@reddit
Cost.
Way cheaper to just smash some basic footings in and build up.
Digging down (as everyone on Grand Designs finds out) is always pain and unknown cost until completed.
AffectionateJump7896@reddit
They are a pain to dig, to remove what is under a house, and it is cheaper to build up or out than down.
Once we invented the fridge and the gas boiler, the functions of the cellar were not worth the hassle and they became a pointless waste of money.
Kaioxygen@reddit
Many were, at least partially coal cellars. Not much need of them anymore.
cdh79@reddit
They were for keeping stuff cool. We don't need that anymore as cheep electricity keeps our food cold. /s
TachiH@reddit
Most cellars in the UK were coal cellars. They aren't really suitable for inhabitation as they weren't built to be protected from the damp ground around them.
I'm sure they can be retrofitted though. A lot of the countries housing stock isnt built on top of rock so the cost of extending the foundations even deeper really adds up.
Mazuna@reddit
Grew up in a house with a large cellar, it was great for a boys space where we kept the computer, games consoles and a dart board. I really miss that.
That being said Iâm aware it was a lot of work to get usable and it was damp, cold, kind of scary and it also had a couple of tiny coal storage rooms that my family never bothered to fix up and were really dank and horrible. I also dread to think how dirty it must have been because my mum never dared to step foot down there and we definitely werenât going to clean itâŚ
Gauntlets28@reddit
People no longer use coal to heat their homes. There's a reason why most of the ones we do have in this country are referred to as "coal cellars." The reason why they had to be underground was so it was easy to deliver coal via a hatch outside (also presumably dust).
Without that need, the cost isn't there vs simply adding more above-ground space, which is cheaper.
ealwhale@reddit
I would copy this post and make a review
random_banana_bloke@reddit
I have a cellar in my house and its a super useful space (and dry) it has the boiler and a load of random furniture and crap i dont use and my rather large home server. Super useful i love it.
Minimum-Feeling-3434@reddit
I never knew anyone with a basement until I moved to uni and had a basement in my uni house. I feel like itâs very location dependent, not just age dependent.Â
MinimumBeginning5144@reddit
Why do so many people say we don't need cellars any more? Where would you keep your vintage wine collection if you didn't have a wine cellar?
OneCheesecake1516@reddit
Money
Tancred1099@reddit
This is asked quite commonly
HughWattmate9001@reddit
Cost, Radon Gas, Refrigeration, Plaster Board (used to have crawl spaces and wiring under floors for easy access, with plasterboard this is less of a thing due to space for pipes/wires to go, before it was brick and plaster no cavity sometimes)
rockdecasba@reddit
I would turn mine into a gym like Tony SopranoÂ
newtobitcoin111@reddit
because they are scary
PolarLocalCallingSvc@reddit
No great news for them and they're a bit of a pain to build.
Doesn't stop every rich person in Kensington paying to get an underground swimming pool though.
No_Preference9093@reddit
Because they were primarily for coal or wood and now although they might look like used for storage for most people, they are just a damp nightmare.Â
Slyspy006@reddit
Because we have central heating, electricity, refridgeration and plumbing.
dbxp@reddit
Expensive and prone to water ingress, depending on the drainage in the area they can easily be sitting effectively underwater when it rains
Bksudbjdua@reddit
I've never known a celler. I've known a cupboard in the stairwell outside flats
doraisexploring27@reddit
My friend has just bought a place with one and it genuinely looks like something out of a horror film. Iâll pass
Dartzap@reddit
Most cellars were there for coal or wood storage, which the vast majority of people no longer use as a fuel source.
OnceUponAComment@reddit
i had one growing up and we loved pretending it was a home for fairies lol. just had coal in it xx
AuramiteEX@reddit
Houses are built on damp land and a cellar will cause further issues. That's why
TheCurlyOne28@reddit
Risk of flooding and damp, plus the extra cost of having to dig deeper.
Modern builds are all about spending as little about of money as possible for greater profit margin.
geeered@reddit
Much cheaper to build up if you want an extra usable room and we no longer need somewhere to store things which would have typically been poured in and didn't need windows.
drxc@reddit
Partly because there's less need to store coal these days. And we have refrigerators, so we don't need a cool place for things.
iffyClyro@reddit
Do you mean an external cupboard type cellar? I think people used to store their coal in them and didnât want a mess in their house.
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