Why is racing to the bottom so accepted in British culture?

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BleepingBleeper@reddit

Base level NHS workers used to be on a substantially higher wage than minimum wage workers. Now that minimum wage is catching up, base level NHS workers' wage is now constantly pennies above minimum wage. As the minimum wage rate increases, more workers' pay is going to be proportionately closer to minimum wage because those who are above the minimum wage don't enjoy the percentage of wage increases like the minimum wage earners do. It's only a matter of time before resident doctors are earning pennies more than cleaners if this pattern continues.

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Dull_Hawk9416@reddit

One of the biggest issues are consumer culture. People buy buy buy buy. Other generations did not do this. My parenta used to have like three pairs of shoes and a couple of shirts. The issue doesn’t go away with increasing wages, everything else will just increase inline with what they have to pay their employees. People need to spend less, credit should be a last resort. Anyway I have a lot more to say but I have to work!

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Contact_Patch@reddit

Your parents shoes and shirts weren't build for the lowest possible cost and were a quality product.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

You can still buy that quality and in real terms it is cheaper than it was for them.

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ReigningInEngland@reddit

Doubtful. Quality has plummeted in nearly every item we purchase. Shoes, quality street, wood.

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Contact_Patch@reddit

You have to shop around HARD for it.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Sure, because the market has shrunk because most people prefer mass produced crap

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RevolutionaryDeer@reddit

Back then saving for something like a house was realistic. Now it’s pointless so people would rather spend their money on ‘consumer culture’ and I don’t blame them.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Obviously not pointless otherwise the housing market would be in freefall

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fivebyfive12@reddit

I'm a bit in between here...

One part of my brain KNOWS it absolutely should not be a race to the bottom. I fully support workers demanding more, unions, the push back against wage stagnation. I understand different people in different circumstances and all of that.I really do.

But I'll admit that another part of my brain kind of explodes when I see some people basically pleading poverty when their household income is (at the very least) double what ours is.

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PrincessPK475@reddit

This is like me.

I dragged myself out of a different level of poverty (scraping mould off bread and cheese to eat level) - to having a comfortable living, all bills covered etc.... I probably can't complain, not compared to others....

and yet I remain disgusted at how hard I've worked for a wage that two decades ago should've seen me significantly better off than I am. Still struggling to afford seeing a dentist, buy new clothes for myself when mine are threadbare, afford meat from a butcher or the established plant here and there....a date night or two with my husband.... that sort of thing.... I don't ask or want for a lot but I really wish I could at least afford some little luxuries and my wage should cover that based on my role and responsibilities and working hours....

I'm not claiming poverty but it is an insult and a slap in the face and makes for a very demotivated workforce.

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DrNick2012@reddit

I share the sentiment. Over the years I've pulled myself up from long term jobless, to minimum wage, to better than minimum wage to now above the national average (which is 32k I believe) and whilst I am no longer exactly struggling, I'm pretty much just now able to maybe move out of a studio flat to a place big enough to have my kids over properly (without airbeds and rearranging the place every time) OR maybe learning how to drive, I can't realistically do both and I'm in my 30s (might be able to do both when the kids are older, if my situation doesn't get worse)

The thing is, if my dad did the job I do when he was my age, he'd have had a decent house (mortgaged, not rented), a car for him and probably a second for my mom, a holiday every year, a decent amount of spare income etc etc, and that would be with him being the sole earner. In fact, my dad mostly did not work and he drove his whole adult life and we never lived in anything smaller than a 3 bed house.

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littlegreenturtle20@reddit

I think this is it, isn't it? We live in a rich, developed country which has not been invaded or colonised in centuries. The average person should not have to struggle to live a good quality life.

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AndWhatBeard@reddit

Oh yeah I'd love to be able to buy some established plants instead of either plug plants or seeds but on the plus side we're lucky enough to have somewhere to put plants.

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

But just because an income is more doesn’t mean it’s going to be sufficient for their household. £70k is a remarkable salary up North. £70k is not enough for a household in London for people with young children who would require daycare, a mortgage, bills, and a car. It is a lot of money, I’m not disputing that, but it’s also relative. My partner and I don’t have any kids so £70k for us would be brilliant. I have friends who have other expenses so I know that £70k would be tight

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distraction_pie@reddit

But those people who chose to live in London and have kids and chose to put them in daycare and choose run a car despite being in the city with the best public transportation in england are making expensive lifestyle choices, they aren't poor. I could buy a bunch of expensive of shit and then complain I'm broke too, but that's not the same as being actually poor.

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

This exact mentality is what I’m talking about. “How dare you live in a city, use various transportation modes, and start a family?”. This is just lying down and accepting the state of things and blaming people for not getting the compensation they’re deserved for their labour.

The attitude should be “We need to be providing people with a living wage so they can still afford to live where they choose, be able to use transportation which is most accessible for them, and have the opportunity to start a family.”

Also, if you live past zone 3, you absolutely need a car. Not everyone is able bodied so cars may be a necessity. People can’t work if they don’t have childcare. London is not a city which should be exclusively for the wealthy. Many people were born and raised here and shouldn’t be forced out of their homes.

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Formal_Produce_8077@reddit

as a born and raised londoner who moved to scotland while pregnant bc house prices were absolutely insane on a combined income of under £40k, yes. very very much this. we could afford a one bed (not much bigger than a studio) in london and currently have a three bed maisonette. its completely fucked

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

The crux of the "cost of living crisis" is people spending all their money then pretending to be poor. That mentality is everywhere right now.

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CrewHead7190@reddit

You are assuming they could make £70K anywhere in the UK though. That kind of salary is often possible by working in London.

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AndWhatBeard@reddit

£70k would be a dream for me. I've got my living costs as low as they can go as I have some private presciptions I have to pay for. We still go to the pub occasionally but don't drink booze, the cinema occassionally but I've not had a holiday in 10 years, we don't go for meals out, we home cook and have very few take aways. We cycle the streaming sites or use other methods to watch media. We could get rid of the car if needed. Everything is planned and accounted for and that way it usually leaves me with some cash left over at the end of the month. I live this way because I've lived the other way, where you live like a king for the first week of the month and living like a pauper the rest with a load of debt. I don't want to go back to that place. But £70k that would give us so much breathing room and an ability to build up a decent amount of savings and emergency funds. Clothes from vinted or charity shops too. I don't consider myself poor, I don't know if others would. I know so many people worse off than me. I know way too many people dressed in really nice gear coz on pay day they're off out buying really nice clothes but then have to rely on food banks and stuff.

My friend who has a similar amount of money is at costa 2 or 3 times a day, lives off prepackaged or take away food and spends so much of the month with literally zero in her account buying costa on credit card. It's mental the difference. She's walking around with holes in her clothes.

We're both mortgage free too. Should both be able to live reasonabily comfortably. I imagine if my friend got £70k a year she'd live in costa and still be poor.

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Souseisekigun@reddit

We're both mortgage free too.

Are you renting? If not then rent or mortage is typically the biggest outgoing expense in most people's budget commonly hitting 30%-40% of their budget. In which case what you've said doesn't really apply for most people.

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EhDinnaeEvenKen@reddit

I see some people basically pleading poverty when their household income is (at the very least) double what ours is.

I have this issue with my cousin.

He claims to be 'living week to week' , despite earning way more than double what I do. But the reason that he has no savings is because he's paying a ginormous mortgage on a 4 bedroom new build for himself his missus and one kid, and also he and his missus both have to have new cars every couple years, and the whole family just have to wear designer clothes all the time, and his missus has to spend hundreds every month on hair and nails.

He's spending his way into self-imposed poverty because his unemployed vain fuckwit missus has to keep up with the joneses on instagram.

Meanwhile I have to listen to him whinging about his 'poverty', while I work part time, get universal credit top-ups to pay my rent, and take the bus.

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strolls@reddit

also he and his missus both have to have new cars every couple years,

This is so insane.

When you buy a new car on finance you're paying not only for the interest on the loan, but also you're paying for the greatest part of the car's depreciation.

It maybe isn't so bad if you pay the finance off when the balloon payment comes due (because maybe the cost of the finance is offset by the discount the finance company gets on buying hundreds of cars) but your cousin is just renting cars forever.

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gagagagaNope@reddit

Why are you complaining about your cousin who manages to suppport his family, pay a big mortgage, pay for regular new cars - all while you work part time taking money out of the pockets of taxpayers to make up for that?

I'm not sure he's the problem here, people able to work part time and rely on others to fund them are. The taxes needed to fund the gigantic welfare state are the main issue in the country right now. It makes every company uncompetitve internationally, and kills the wages we do get - which are only paid after the govenment has already taken a 15% employer NI shaped bit out of them.

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EhDinnaeEvenKen@reddit

Why are you complaining about your cousin

I'm complaining about his whining.

who manages to suppport his family, pay a big mortgage, pay for regular new cars

Barely, but the problem I'm talking about isn't his spending, the problem is his constant fucking whinging about being broke when he earns more than anybody else in the family. He's not even remotely broke, he just thinks he is because he budgets like a fucking moron and wastes money on completely unnecessary shite like brand new cars and a half empty house he overpaid for and his idiot bimbo trophy wife.

all while you work part time taking money out of the pockets of taxpayers to make up for that?

Yeah... I should just starve right?

Because in your mind I'm sitting here wringing my hands and cackling like a cartoon villain, while I'm broke as fuck on a part time contract and depending on benefits to keep a roof over my head and food in the fridge.

Are you really so utterly out of touch with reality that you don't understand that forced underemployment is increasingly becoming the norm at the lowest end of the income scale?

If more employers would actually offer people full time contracts, there wouldn't be the massive national epidemic of chronically underemployed people that there is.

I'm not sure he's the problem here

I'm sure the problem here is your lack of reading comprehension, either that or your inability to understand that it's the companies run by the overpaid rich pricks who are under-employing people to get around offering them the security of full time work and the concomitant benefits and entitlements.

The taxes needed to fund the gigantic welfare state are the main issue in the country right now

Then you should probably keep in mind that there's over twice as many underemployed people dependant on universal credit to live than there is unemployed people. People who aren't the 'workshy scroungers' or whatever you and your daily mail reading pals are calling them these days... Not to mention that the benefits system and job centre are outright hostile and frankly humiliating to deal with.

The actual real issue is rampant corporate exploitation of employment law, and the routine abuse of part time or zero hour contracts, to exploit workers who in most cases are banned from collective action.

Not to mention the greedy parasitic landlord classes who contribute fuck all but are bleeding working people dry in the midst of a housing crisis.

But the problem is me who's broke and trying to work right?

The problem couldn't possibly the company I work for and need full availability for, refuses to give me a contract equal to what I actually work most weeks? Doesn't pay overtime for anything worked over my contracted hours.

The problem couldn't possibly be that most of the people at my work are on 12-16 hour contract, that most weeks we get our contract, and peak times we get 16 hour non-negotiable shifts?

The problem also couldn't be that the prick who runs the company got paid over 400x my wage, and over 200x what a full time employee would be paid, last year.

The problem couldn't possibly be that my jobless lazy parasitic prick landlord, charges over half of my contracted earnings in rent for a bog standard one bedroom flat?

It's the rich parasitic pricks who've ruined the economy by ruthlessly exploiting the laws around employment and housing, that aren't fit for purpose.

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malakesxasame@reddit

Sounding like a crab here mate

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EhDinnaeEvenKen@reddit

How so?

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PennyBunPudding@reddit

It's the same reason why many footballers end up broke. With increase in wage, debts and expenditure increases so your % savings doesn't change much. Of course, the simple solution is to buy just spunk all your money on higher costs.

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pineappleshampoo@reddit

My personal bugbear is nurses claiming (lying) that they’d earn more stacking shelves. They wouldn’t and they know it, or they wouldn’t be doing such a difficult exhausting job when they could earn the same on the tills at asda.

As a healthcare professional on the same pay scale who has actually worked in a supermarket it pisses me off royally. It’s flagrantly untrue and disrespectful both to NMW workers doing difficult jobs and the public who have some faith in nurses to at least not outright lie.

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Andurael@reddit

I agree. For me I look at what others earn and think ‘I work way harder, and I think my job is much harder, with greater responsibility, and on top I clearly work way many more hours, yet you’re asking for more when you already out-earn me?’.

It’s difficult for brains to speak louder than emotions.

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kettlejuices@reddit

pleading poverty when their household income is (at the very least) double what ours is.

This is really rampant within this sub. I'm seeing people complain that they're only on 70k while I sit here struggling to afford food toward the end of the month on less than half of what they're earning.

Admittedly I do live on the south coast, so cost of living is higher than almost everywhere else, but I'm not getting the wage to match that.

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

It’s not a competition. You even admit that you’re not getting a wage to match your living expenses. The same will apply to others around the country. Would it therefore not make more sense to advocate for higher wages opposed to being pissed off at people who are in bad situations themselves relative to the area they live in?

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peepshowquotebot@reddit

Both things can be true, someone can be relatively well off compared to much of the rest of the country and still reasonably complain that they are paid a lot less than someone in the same profession would be in comparable countries, or in the UK 20 years ago.

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your-mum-joke@reddit

Yeah I cant stand those people

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Think_Money_6919@reddit

Crabs in the bucket mentality is strong here in the UK

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smackdealer1@reddit

So is the ladder pulling mentality

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20127010603170562316@reddit

My parents generation are the worst for this.

They pretty much got an easy life handed to them, and call us work shy layabouts for not having a semi detached and three kids by thirty. They live in a different world.

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ThrobbingGristle@reddit

Let me be brutally honest in response.

If you haven’t got a semi detached and three kids by thirty (if that’s what you want), it means you’ve chosen the wrong career path. It is very possible to be earning a big wage by the age of thirty. There will be many people on the subreddit right now who are (but they’ll be quiet about it as they know they’ll suffer the age-old Reddit tall poppy downvote button).

Just because average wages in the UK have stagnated, it doesn’t mean yours have to. Remember, 50% of people earn above the average.

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auto98@reddit

The problem with this argument is that if everyone did the perfect thing every time, but the perfect thing to benefit themselves only, it would end up being exactly the same as it is now.

The bootstraps argument only works if only a few people do it.

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ThrobbingGristle@reddit

I’m not sure why you said that, as clearly only a few people do do it?

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Honey-Badger@reddit

My parents generation are the worst for this.

We often talk about how boomers dont understand how hard things are and see the shit that many boomers reas in the Telegraph or idiots on Question Time or what have you but weirdly my parents, my partners parents, my parents friends, my friends parents, just all the boomers in my life are absolutely heartbroken at the state of things. I just cannot work out how i've ended knowing a bubble of successful boomers who hate the current state of the UK and think that young people have been totally fucked over.

Who are these boomers who have managed to stay just so unaware of reality?

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20127010603170562316@reddit

I don't know. My dad is an intelligent man, but I strongly suspect he would v0te for that American man if he could. We do not discuss politics because we very obviously differ.

It took him a very long time, and his wife bollocking him about it, to understand my neurodivergent / MH stuff.

I think they just don't get the world in the same way we do?

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jimicus@reddit

I can't speak for anyone else, but when my mum retired in the early 2000s, it was almost as if her entire understanding of the world froze on that day.

It wasn't immediately obvious, of course. But by the time she died in 2020, it was getting increasingly difficult to hold a conversation about anything in the modern world - because society had changed so much in the interim that you basically had to spend 15 minutes explaining those changes.

Making this harder is the fact that society is a dense tapestry, so as soon as you explain one change you wind up going down a rabbit hole of knock-on effects. Salaries haven't kept pace with inflation? How come anyone can afford to live? Well, real world inflation isn't a flat figure applied to everything - a laptop, for instance, is a hell of a lot cheaper now than it was twenty years ago. Hold on, why do you need a laptop? Well, I need something to access the Internet. Why do you need the Internet? Because I can't apply for jobs, use the bank or pay my bills without it. Not to mention I get all my entertainment that way. What's wrong with the television? Hasn't been anything I want to watch on broadcast TV in ten years. So what are you watching?

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Honey-Badger@reddit

My dad is an intelligent man, but I strongly suspect he would v0te for that American man if he could

hmmmm

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20127010603170562316@reddit

Yeah I am struggling to come to terms with it myself.

I feel like I should be a literal example to him of why conservatism doesn't work, but I'd rather keep the relationship than discuss politics.

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jimicus@reddit

I suspect it depends when they had kids.

My mum was a boomer, but she had me and my brother relatively late. She was well aware of the state of things for millennials.

But if she'd had us ten years earlier - her youngest would have been born in 1976. He'd probably be fine - and so her frame of reference would be "my kids are all right; how come everyone else is complaining?"

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Honey-Badger@reddit

Hmm yeah maybe

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OneEggOmelette@reddit

Youre the outlier

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PennyBunPudding@reddit

It is interesting when you read more about it. Our parents largely grew up in a meritocracy. Hard work got you something. We have rapidly been switch towards a system of inheritance and nepotism (to some degree). Hard work doesn't mean shit anymore for vast swaths of society.

Out parents largely don't understand this, so when they see their children failing without being handed a leg up it's easy to say it's just down to being lazy rather than for many where the reality is without a leg up you're fucked.

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20127010603170562316@reddit

As far as I can tell, most of my aunts and uncles (mainly uncles) were basically given jobs as young people and then just did them until they retired. And got mortgages on those jobs.

I have probably had more jobs than most of the older people in my family put together.

I crave such stability.

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Fortytwopoint2@reddit

And the mortgages were only 2.5x salary, not the 5x or 6x many face today

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MrReadilyUnready@reddit

The house I grew up in was purchased by my parents in 2000 for £210k in London. They once had a taxi driver who dropped us home who said to them "oh, I actually almost closed on this house last year". A taxi driver could afford to purchase a 3-bed terraced home in a good London borough 25 years ago. Today professionals like doctors and engineers are struggling.

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sugar0coated@reddit

It's not even just London. My parents bought a 4 bedroom house in Sheffield for £132k in 2002. Long since sold. It's currently estimated at £398k. It hasn't been updated from what I can tell either.

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MrReadilyUnready@reddit

My parents' house is now worth £650k. Genuinely fucked.

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Smidday90@reddit

I remember I went back to uni in my 20’s and all the young ins thought I was just shit at jobs because I had had so many. Boy were they in for a treat.

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Great-Science-8586@reddit

Yes and then they ask why anxiety is so prevalent among younger people.

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Why_you_so_wrong_@reddit

I disagree. You clearly aren’t in a very meritocratic career or aren’t working as hard as you think you are.

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Help_1987@reddit

😂😂😂😂 …Boomers

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20127010603170562316@reddit

Did you need your pipe and slippers now or later?

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YchYFi@reddit

Only if you were middle class.

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auto98@reddit

Yeah this is huge - relatively few people had it easy, not only in the sense of having it "handed to them" but also there were far more people living an absolutely shit life in places that werent fit for human habitation, with not enough money to buy the essentials.

Abject poverty was a much bigger thing the further you go back.

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YchYFi@reddit

People online say it because they have a small lense and they are from that middle class. If my parents had had it 'handed to them' then I would not have grown up working class myself.

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InsaneInTheRAMdrain@reddit

Generation? How old are your parents, because mine worked down fucking mines, went through 10 years of strikes and had a child born from with a disability courtesy of modern medical innovation.

Whos this magical generation who got everything easy? Because before that, Those born in the 1940 were living on the backs of world wars and pestilence.

Or maybe you're full of shit.

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20127010603170562316@reddit

~65 if it matters for your weird argument.

There are no mines anywhere near my area, so irrelevant.

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InsaneInTheRAMdrain@reddit

You said your parents' "generation" had it easy... that's everyone around that age... It's completely relevant.
Also, it's your "weird" argument.

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Help_1987@reddit

I think they meant ‘easy life’ in the context of this post… they worked down a mine & on that salary got an average 3 bed house probably with 1 parent working full time (like my parents)

We both have to work full time, raise our children while working & still got 30 years on the mortgage

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20127010603170562316@reddit

My grandparents were either at war or in factories, my uncles & aunts waltzed into jobs in the 60s-70s.

I'm in Suffolk so no hope of any mines for like 200 miles. We did have farms and factories though. Now we don't even really have those.

Anyway, I'm not into "my parents had it harder than yours". I didn't do that toil.

My point remains that I and my peers do not have the same situations and opportunities (relative) available to us as our parents and grandparents did.

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Help_1987@reddit

Think you replied to the wrong person, you’re making the same point I did 👌

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20127010603170562316@reddit

I replied to the right person :)

Just following the thread, adding, agreeing.

It would be disjointed if I just replied to the other guy.

✌️

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Help_1987@reddit

😂

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Dutch_Slim@reddit

Similarly my dad’s always moaning about low interest rates. Not a care for any of us paying a mortgage, just more interest on the savings he’s never going to spend…

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Super-Nuntendo@reddit

They don't really understand the modern world and it's complexities (and refuse to try and learn)

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-You_Cant_Stop_Me-@reddit

When my cousin was struggling to find a job a few years ago my grandad just kept regailing him with stories of just walking into a factory, asking for and getting a job from the foreman without even showing a CV or needing references. He can't grasp that you can't even get a job in a supermarket without a multi stage interview process that includes a personality test nowadays.

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CheeryBottom@reddit

Just watching my daughter try and get a weekend job at the local corner shop was an eye opening experience. Back in the 90s I just spoke to the owner and was working weekends the very next weekend. Now every job vacancy is a digital CV emailed to some head office.

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Super-Nuntendo@reddit

Yep clueless as to how cut throat the world is these days.

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Sad-Nectarine-7855@reddit

My parents, shocked and disgusted at the salary I make.

Despite it being a high skill role, working with high value items, jewellery & watches, with a wide customer demographic and me being the one who risked it all to open it....

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UKAOKyay@reddit

So if you had access to a time machine, you'd go back 50 or 60 years?

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Get_Breakfast_Done@reddit

They pretty much got an easy life handed to them, and call us work shy layabouts for not having a semi detached and three kids by thirty. They live in a different world.

This is not a UK specific issue, to be fair

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Okhlahoma_Beat-Down@reddit

My parents have straight-up laughed whilst declaring they're going to spend all the inheritance money on cruises before they die.

Legitimately the shittiest generation in history, only short of the Boomers.

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auto98@reddit

Up until the last few decades, inheritances barely existed except for the few % at the top. The vast vast majority of people rented houses, so there was no house to inherit, and savings were little to none, especially after funereal expenses

And exactly why do you think you are entitled to their money? You want them not to enjoy the last years of their life?

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HoboStrider@reddit

Sad thing about that analogy, crabs would protect each other from being singled out by a predator when in nature. They tend to huddle in a group and cling together.

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Competitive_Pen7192@reddit

If you ever dare mention exact figures then some crab will start nipping.

I earn decent enough money but it's offset by having two children and a wife who was off looking after them. I suggested what I got didn't exactly get me a PCP BMW or yearly holidays then the crab went off on one.

I'm not actually sure what sort of salary someone needs to be able to enjoy what they want within reason.

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MindTheBees@reddit

It's pointless to compare anyway as everyone has different underlying wealth. Someone on 40k but has a house paid for / inherited is obviously in a different financial position than someone who is on 80k but is struggling to save for a house deposit due to kids/having to live in London etc.

All that is before you even get into the discussion around what is an "acceptable" lifestyle too.

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milo_minderbinder-@reddit

We’re reaching a weird point now where the biggest determinant for a person’s lifestyle isn’t what job they have or what salary they earn, but where their parents lived.

It’s not unusual now to see scenarios where a junior employee has a much nicer and more comfortable lifestyle than their very senior well-paid boss who is living paycheque-to-paycheque. All because the junior employee was an only child with parents from a nice village in Surrey whereas the senior boss had parents with a terraced house in Blackpool.

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Steppy20@reddit

I'm on a good wage (especially compared to everyone else) but other than vehicles and my computer I don't actually have any valuable assets to my name.

I can't even afford the deposit for a mortgage yet, and at my current rate of savings it'll take me another 7-8 years, assuming that the house prices don't skyrocket from where they already are.

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More-Magician4492@reddit

Jesus. You must be eating mountains of avocados

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SinofThrash@reddit

I think if a salary cannot allow someone to rent a 1 bed flat by themselves and cover basic living costs for the month, then it's a serious problem.

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MindTheBees@reddit

It's a nice sentiment (and I do agree with it) but the problem comes down to defining the specifics of those things and everyone's different views on it.

For example, what sort of 1 bed flat? A highly modernised and clean one with a gym in the building or a grotty little shit hole? Should someone be able to afford a 1 bed in central London or should they be expected to commute?

Then looking at basic living costs, what does that mean specifically? Shopping at Waitrose or Lidl? Does that include takeaways or meals out? Phone and broadband are important but you can get varying degrees of luxury with both. Should we account for non-essential things like streaming services?

The reality is probably somewhere in the middle of all those questions, but actually quantifying it is difficult.

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360Saturn@reddit

The fact is that until very recently you didn't need to quantify things this way.

An old episode of Wife Swap was on tv recently. It was from 2004 or 2005. One of the couples had a 4 bedroom house in Devon that they owned on mortgage, two cars, two kids, three foreign holidays a year.

What kind of lifestyle did they lead I hear you ask? The man was a nightclub manager and the woman worked part-time in an office.

Watch any old tv show featuring real people from the 90s or 00s - gameshows and reality tv are great for a snapshot - and it's a real insight into how much higher the baseline experience used to be compared to now, even for comparatively low earners.

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MindTheBees@reddit

That's a very hyper-specific example, but regardless, what kind of house? I looked up 4 beds in Devon and I'm getting plenty of results less than 200k which a couple in those jobs could afford. Now maybe those houses are complete shit but you can still easily say "yeah we have a 4 bed house."

Also you still need to quantify whether the three foreign holidays are super cheap or super expensive. We spent £10k on our honeymoon to Sri Lanka and Maldives, but I could also travel to multiple European countries for a fraction of that cost. What constitutes a holiday abroad?

Moreover, since 2004 there have been huge technological advances so the baseline has shifted, such as the first Apple iPhone being launched in 2007. Again, should the average person be able to afford the latest smartphone? Where do you draw the line?

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360Saturn@reddit

what kind of house?

A house nice enough that they were the 'nice' family in the episode, the other family had 7 kids and lived on an estate with the parents on benefits. The conceit of the episode was that the family on benefits had more net income than the family with the house and the cars and the holidays despite that family having two working parents.

But what obviously stuck out watching it 20 years on was the lifestyle that was possible for this family even with what was seen as 'not as much disposable income', based on a full-time working dad and a part-time mum.

I feel like the 'DINK' acronym is from around the 90s/00s? Dual Income, No Kids. People in that situation were aspired towards as rolling in money. Nowadays most DINKs are sharing one bed flats or living in houseshares!

Yes, obviously I take your point that there are extremes of luxury, penthouses and gold baths and the likes, but we've really accepted less and less as a baseline as a society over the last 2 decades, softly softly, like the frog in the pan of slowly boiling water. You don't even tend to notice it until you see an old reference like that to what used to be normal because by and large everyone is in the same boat.

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rdxc1a2t@reddit

Makes me think of the "no kids on the estate" conversation I have with my parents every six months. "There are no kids on this estate anymore. It used to be that there were always kids milling about outside or kicking a ball on the green". Yeah, because young families can't afford these houses anymore! It used to be that all the driveways were filled with Fords, Peugeots and Toyotas as well and now they're all BMWs, Mercedes and Audis! Working families are being priced out of what were once seen as fairly basic family homes, at least in the South East they are.

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burundilapp@reddit

You don't need this degree of specificity, a single person should be able to afford to live within a reasonable distance of their workplace and it not consume more than a certain percentage of their income, they should then be able to provide for essentials (and broadband and a mobile phone are essentials these days) within another percentage of their income and have the remainder as disposable income.

In the year 2000 this was approx 30 to 33% of income for renting/mortgage costs based on median values.

In 2025 this was up to 41% to 47% of income for renting/mortgage costs.

Most other associated costs have risen as well thanks to privatisation of key utilities which costs higher for every company providing services to every other business and individual.

Rising wages are not the problem, rising profiteering and lack of controls on house pricing/rents are the the primary causes, rising wages get blamed as holding back growth but profiteering is the biggest cause.

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InsaneInTheRAMdrain@reddit

If the average rent in that area is more than 33% of the average wage in that area, its a problem.

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HuckleberryDry2673@reddit

Well the national average is what, about £37k? So anything above that and you're doing better than most.

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LambonaHam@reddit

The key issue here is that you've chosen to have two children, and you're most likely trying to compare your financial situation to someone who didn't make that choice.

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fikonin@reddit

Cheers dude. You taught me a new phrase today. It’s great learning new things. And totally agree with what you said.

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1191100@reddit

Yes, to the point of hate crime

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InvincibleMirage@reddit

It’s the single worst thing about the UK imo

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Prajnamarga@reddit

Yep. That's exactly what I came here to say, but more succinct.

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geeered@reddit

Productivity has been really flat in the UK. To pay people more you need there to be more output per person.

Increasing wages across the board without increasing output just creates more inflation.

And of course there's been the Russian and now American hits to energy, which means we all have to pay more for most things, without balancing that with being paid more.

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ALA02@reddit

The solution is investment in training and upskilling employees, which most companies are essentially allergic to. So no wonder productivity it flatlining.

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onionsareawful@reddit

why are americans so much more productive, then? because they certainly aren't training and upskilling workers much over there, either.

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slemsbury@reddit

Productivity is flat because ain't nobody gettin' paid over here.

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onionsareawful@reddit

public sector productivity actually declined between 1997-2007 whilst they were getting plenty of real pay rises.

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MrPejorative@reddit

I've been on a push lately reading the history of some of these Asian countries that have seen an explosion in economic growth and prosperity. Much of what the UK is doing now is the reverse of what countries like Singapore did to succeed.

They did * Relentless focus on core education: maths and science literacy. Solid pre-calculus by age 16 * Heavy crackdown on crime and corruption creating a high trust society * Extreme low tolerance of drugs and drug traffickers * National service to create a large highly skilled standing army to act as a deterrent, but also ensure skilled leadership left the military and went into industry\government positions * The above created conditions that were attractive to foreign investors

The UK has * Plummeting math skills. Many adults don't know how to do basic trig * Rampant petty crime * Complete disdain at the thought of national service, no ancillary "doorman" benefits either. * Heavy casual drug use everywhere * High surveillance society, but also high crime, and low trust * Weak military, overdependent on hostile allies

We are heading to third world status fast.

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onionsareawful@reddit

LKY was heavily inspired by the UK, and wanted to create conditions similar to those in the UK. He spent a lot of his youth living here, and even got married (albeit secretly) in Stratford-upon-Avon.

I think a big issue in the UK is the "worst of both worlds". We have a state that feels overbearing for those who follow the law, but is practically unenforced for those who don't. Your phone could be nicked or your house burgled and the police won't do shit, but they seemingly have all the time to dish out "non-crime hate incidents" or arrest thousands with "i support palestine action" signs.

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wizaway@reddit

Your pay is directly tied to how easy you are to replace, not the value you bring. You can educate people all you want but if they train for a job in an industry that the government floods with cheap labour then they'll never earn good money.

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Own-Jeweler3169@reddit

I think this i spot in, due the cost of living, and many other factors, competition is as fierce as ever - as you know, therefore companies can get away giving you the absolute minimum of what they have to, or they will just replace you. This leads to a constant anxiety and lack of loyalty from companies to employees and by default, vice versa.

As a young person, it just feels as the house is UNEBELIEVABLY stacked against you, you went to uni? Good luck paying that debt off if mummy and daddy don't rescue you. Want a house? No chance. Want a job? Fire hundreds of CVs with relatively considerable experience and get bullshit/no responses back.

I will reevaluate when I finish my degree apprenticeship in a few years, but it just feels like we are trapped in this shithole.

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PatternWeary3647@reddit

That’s not British culture, that’s capitalism.

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onionsareawful@reddit

America doesn't have this issue and is far more capitalistic than the UK. It's a class issue, in my view.

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barnburner96@reddit

It is but British people are especially cucked when it comes to this.

Thatcherism, Blair, ‘Benefits Britain’ all contributed to this performative ‘I’m alright Jack, fuck everyone else’ attitude a lot of people have.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Right wing press controls the narratives

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

And right wing bot farms control the feeling through posts like this that mention "wages declining sharply" as a fact when it is simply untrue.

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chrisrazor@reddit

Even if you were right, which you are not, why would right wing - ie billionaire-supporting - bots be saying this?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Okay if I'm not right let's look at real wage growth stats. What time period do you want to look at?

Why? A population that believes they are getting poorer are far easier to anger into voting for extreme politics.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Do you think wages ie buying power has remained consistent or that it has declined?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Factually it has increased slightly over a 5, 10 or 15 year measure

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

What are you talking about? Are you intentionally ignoring inflation?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

No - real wages have risen slightly. Look it up.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Short-Term Impact (2020-2025): £100 in 2020 is equivalent to roughly £126.25 in 2025, demonstrating a roughly 20%+ loss in purchasing power over just five years due to high inflation.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

What is your source?

From here is see Jan 26 is above any 2025 figure

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/timeseries/a3wx/emp

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator#:~:text=Inflation%20and%20the%202%25%20target,%C2%A3

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Are you serious hahaha

You're looking at inflation but not considering wage rises at all?!?!

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

The wages can rise 2% but if inflation has been at 20% its basically a pay cut even if the wage number is higher because it buys less. You get that right?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Are you serious? I've linked a source on real wages - which is wages after adjusting for the impact of inflation. It has still gone up.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Yes but you can still buy less than before.

Since 2020, high inflation has outpaced or roughly matched nominal wage growth, resulting in stagnant or minimal real wage gains for many workers. While wage growth slowed in early 2026, it finally began to outpace inflation in some sectors, allowing for a slight recovery of purchasing power lost during the 2021–2023 surge, where real wages declined for over 20 months.

Wages have a long way to go to make up the lost ground. Your stat doesn't take into account the length of the crisis it says its gone up in realnterms recently

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

How does the data not consider the length of the crisis? The 2026 figure includes all wage growth and inflation to that date. You chose 2020 as the starting point.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

When did inflation become a major issue? What year?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Can you please look at the link I sent and compare average real wage in 2020 to 2026. It has gone up over that period of time.

One could argue that it's not a representative period because we had to print money in order to fund furlough to stop people starving. But I'm no it even doing that. Use that period of time and wages have still risen in real terms.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

UK buying power has significantly reduced due to high inflation between 2020 and early 2026. Prices have risen by roughly 26% since 2020, meaning £100 from 2020 is worth only about £79 by 2025. While headline inflation has dipped from the 40-year high of 11.1% in October 2022, sustained high food and service costs continue to suppress purchasing power

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/bulletins/consumerpriceinflation/january2025#:~:text=to%20December%202024.-,Food%20and%20non%2Dalcoholic%20beverages,drinks%20and%20juices%20(0.01pp)

This is in line with the BOE link I sent

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

You are again considering only inflation though? That's a report about inflation.

You need to combine this with wage growth information which is what the real wage numbers I linked are.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Yes but wage growth is a number but the buying power of the wages is lower than previously. I don't know why you are struggling with this. With a global pandemic, multiple wars etc you really think we're all better off now because wages are up like 3%? It doesn't make sense on the face of it before you look into the stats. Just Google it ffs. No one thinks we are better off now than 10 years ago

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Yes but wages have grown by more than inflation has eroded the buying power. That is what real wage growth is.

If inflation is 10% and wage growth is 10% then real wages stay still. The stats I linked shows an increasenij real wages since 2020. Are you disputing the one figures?

You have just linked some inflation stats then said wages are up 3% but wages have risen significantly in nominal terms over the past 5 years hence the slight real wage increase.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

If inflation since 2020 was roughly 30% and wages increase roughly 3% a year then were still down 15% over past 5-6 years hence the bank of England calculator stating you can buy less or your money is effectively worth less. Wages have not increased 30% over fhe past 6 years. It's simple maths

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

See section 3 - wages have risen closer to 50% over that period.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Post the link again formatting on my phone is awful

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/january2026

Might have been fault in the posting - does this work?

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

I can't argue with the source but I find it difficult to understand their sources as 7.8% public sector growth in a year is far higher than I've seen and I work for the council and I'm a unison union rep and this is higher than anything I've seen but that is anecdotal. I shouldn't really be doing this while at work I will have another look when I am home but does look like it's saying if their stats are accurate, which I assume they are, then you are correct it has increased. Again anecdotally food costs and housing costs, the latter I believe are excluded from cpi, have sky rocketed. Not trying to move goal posts though

Private rents in the UK have seen significant increases over the last decade, with major surges post-2021. Recent data indicates an average monthly rent of £1,360 in October 2025, with London experiencing 39% growth over a decade, though this is heavily influenced by rapid rises in 2024–2025. Average weekly rents in England increased from £153 in 2009 to £237 by 2024

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

It is simple maths but where is your 3% number from? That is wrong.

The bank of England is saying you can buy less for each pound but they are making no comment on the number of pounds people are paid on average.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

UK nominal annual wage growth has shown a gradual recovery, averaging roughly 3.5%–4% in recent years (2023-2025) after a decade of stagnation. While total annual pay grew strongly by 3.9%–6.2% in 2023-2024, real wage growth (accounting for inflation) has been weak or negative over the last 10 years, only returning to pre-2008 levels by 2025 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ifs.org.uk/news/past-15-years-have-been-worst-income-growth-generations&ved=2ahUKEwiArPLTmfCTAxXwZEEAHSE-DI0Q1fkOegQICBAC&opi=89978449&cd&psig=AOvVaw0gUi7CeRx5Pylqn2u9uDxp&ust=1776354321495000

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Factually it has increased slightly over a 5, 10 or 15 year measure

This is what you said. No it has not

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

"real wages" had increased.

I am not saying there has been depreciation.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

You are ignoring historic inflation. This is why I states buying power. Yeh wages gone up but the value of them have still gone down

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Value has not gone down - what I linked shows real wages which is wage growth adjusted for inflation.

Go and read a book

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Since 2020, UK inflation has risen by approximately 26–28%, outpacing overall wage growth for most workers during the peak cost-of-living crisis. While minimum wage increased ~48% in this period, average wages lagged behind inflation for several years, leading to a real-terms reduction in purchasing power, only recently beginning to recover

I am amazed you can even read tbh

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

What is the source of this? I have provided government stats literally showing we have recovered.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Bank of England

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Link?

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zeusoid@reddit

No the left are really bad at this.

Left media controls the narratives too, no matter how hip it is to say it’s the right wing

Try saying you shop at Tesco, you’d be hounded for not going to Lidl.

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DifferentSwing8616@reddit

Name a left wing news outlet that controls uk narratives

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lemonherring@reddit

Try saying you shop at Tesco, you’d be hounded for not going to Lidl.

These days, if you say you shop in Tesco, they'll throw you in jail.

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Fun_Firefighter5899@reddit

While I agree with the general point. I don’t buy the Brits are particularly “cucked” by this, more than other countries and cultures. It’s similar everywhere - some a bit more than others granted. It does demonstrate something I do think affects native Brits though (I’m an immigrant myself), that’s is self-flagellation. Give yourselves some credit and stop putting yourselves down all the time. Why all the pessimism?

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ALA02@reddit

Britain is just an inherently very right wing country and has been for most of its history. I much prefer the European style social capitalism where everyone has a collective idea of what society should look like and how that would benefit them personally if things were improved for everyone.

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zagreus9@reddit

Britain is just an inherently very right wing country

England is. It's just a shame that it controls the narractive and pursestrings

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Generally just the poor parts of England tbh

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PatternWeary3647@reddit

Thatcher’s determination to shackle the unions and Blair’s reluctance to change that are the main drivers of this, in my view.

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rising_then_falling@reddit

Because it was all so good in the 70s? Unions were giving themselves a big cheer for getting an extra tea break, and management were congratulating themselves that it was only the one extra and not the two they had just gone on strike for, and meanwhile Japan and Korea and US and Germany replaced all our industries. British industrial decline was a solid grass roots effort from workers and management alike.

You can't imagine how little sympathy people had for unions by the end of the 70s.

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PatternWeary3647@reddit

Because it was all so good in the 70s?

I didn’t say that, and didn’t mean to imply it.

Japan and Korea and US and Germany replaced all our industries.

This largely happened in the 80s and 90s, during Thatcherism (and Germany, in particular, had very strong unions).

You can't imagine how little sympathy people had for unions by the end of the 70s.

I don’t need to use my imagination, I was of working age in the 70s. Some people were anti unions, some were pro unions. The media were very anti union then, as they are now.

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White_Swiss@reddit

Naaaah that's very British - I've lived in a few countries in my lifetime and have not encountered such prevalent mindset elsewhere.

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Aggressive_Chuck@reddit

It's socialism.

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Fungled@reddit

Nonsense. America is considerably more capitalistic than this country and they have a tendency to optimism to the point of fault in comparison

It is entirely a class issue; specifically it’s a perverse outgrowth of working class “solidarity”

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Spursdy@reddit

Not really. It is the intersection of capitalism and our benefits system.

America has a completely different outcome and attitude.

Our benefits system was set up in the 90s and 00s to reduce unemployment, which it did. But the result is that we reward people to get any job,

If you are part time on minimum wage, you pay very little tax and have access to many benefits. As you earn more, the tax rapidly goes up and the benefits tail off.

So, for many people, it is completely rational to have any low wage job.

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ZaphodG@reddit

17% of households in council housing or other social rented housing is very different from the US. 2.7% of the US is in government subsidized or government owned housing. The majority are disabled or elderly. Mass transit doesn’t exist or is almost useless in most of the country. The US has a very Darwinian approach to poverty.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Yep - I would never want it to be normal but genuine risk of extreme suffering and death does drive people to be economically active

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arjay555@reddit

I used to love racing to the bottom as a kid. It was so fun to see which raindrop would make it to the bottom of the window first during car journeys.

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OrangeBanana300@reddit

Sometimes I think boomers still dominate the narrative: with hard work and making the right connections, a lot of them thrived with one wage supporting a family, paying a mortgage, owning a car.

Now we need academic qualifications for a decent job, two full-time salaries to afford a home and family, spend half our earnings on rent, subscribe rather than owning anything much.

But the older generations (who still seem to control government and media) just judge those who are younger for not attaining the same standard of living, even though the economic picture has changed so much.

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MarkusSparkus223@reddit

If you haven't noticed the job market is in shambles and then the fact the elites are pushing AI on us which will destroy many sectors - people are very desperate and rightly so.

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WGSMA@reddit

Because for the most important people in the UK, Pensioners, it hasn’t raced to the bottom, it’s never been better.

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NrthnLd75@reddit

Some pensioners. There's plenty on the breadline in poorer parts of the coutnry.

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OptimusLinvoyPrimus@reddit

Proportionally pensioners are the wealthiest age cohort in the country. It goes without saying that some of them are poor. But as a percentage of the group, it’s far fewer than of any other age group.

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tyger2020@reddit

Does anyone dispute this?

It doesn't change the fact that pensioners as a demographic have seen nothing but gains for their entire life at the detriment of everyone else, and it's not even a small amount of them, either.

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WGSMA@reddit

Skill issue. Should have saved some money over their working life.

They should pull themselves up by the bootstraps and go back to work. Where’s that Blitz Spirit they talk about so much?

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marsman@reddit

Skill issue. Should have saved some money over their working life.

That assumes they earned enough to save. The gap when it comes to pensioners is essentially that, if they earned enough to buy a house and save/pay into a pension they are sorted, if they didn't they are pretty fucked and reliant on the state. Its not entirely a skills issue either, its an educational accessability one and one with a lot of regional variability (in some cases, its also simply about which mass employer they were with and whether they had a pension or not, or whether the pension scheme collapsed etc..).

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wholesomechunk@reddit

This is what op is talking about.

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PennyBunPudding@reddit

He's being sarcastic

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MapOfIllHealth@reddit

When I moved overseas I had imposter syndrome for a long time because in my mind I was getting paid a lot of money. The idea of being able to enjoy a good quality of life while working a fairly low to mid level job seemed alien.

In reality it was just a lot compared to my wages in the UK and I was actually undervaluing myself in the job market. That wage I thought was high when I first moved her turned out to be pretty average!

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Gauntlets28@reddit

What is a "good" wage though? Me and my wife both earn roughly that amount, and I'd say being able to afford a house on our own, a new kitchen, a dog and the occasional weekend break, all while living on the outskirts of a major southern city, is pretty good. Yes, I'm overwhelmed with DIY, and yes, my life could be better, but 1. I'm working on that DIY and will probably make a decent profit on the house when it's done, and 2. all I can do is keep applying for new jobs that pay more.

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OK_Cake05@reddit

“Yes, my life could be better”

This is what we are talking about; why wouldn’t you want your life to be better? Especially knowing that for 2 decades wages have stagnated.

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Gauntlets28@reddit

Wanting my life to be better doesn't affect my being largely happy with things as they currently are. It's called a good wage for a reason. It's good because it's not excellent, just comfortable.

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OK_Cake05@reddit

I see that But wages aren’t comfortable though with food, utilities and housing all going up and wages staying the same.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

This is nonsense - wages have gone up at a higher rate than inflation. We are not generally worse off than before.

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OK_Cake05@reddit

Wages have stagnated for almost 20 years https://ppr.lse.ac.uk/articles/10.31389/lseppr.103

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

That's " real" wages which is after adjusting for inflation.

Nominal wages have increased around 50% in the last five years. See section 3:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/january2026

That paper is also almost three years old so includes all COVID inflation but neglects the recent positive real wage growth.

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OK_Cake05@reddit

Let’s say there has been positive wage growth; food, housing and utilities costs have all increased, this that really a wage growth?

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Your original comment said that wages had stayed the same while everything had increased in price. This is factually incorrect.

Wage growth has slightly outpaced inflation - i.e. we are all slightly better off.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Exactly this - wage growth has stagnated in real terms against historic averages but wages are still higher than 5, 10 or 15 years ago after accounting for inflation.

People are being miserable thinking they are not able to have a good life because of the economic conditions but it is the best it has ever been. We are not poorer than before in any measure.

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philipwhiuk@reddit

You’re DINKies - of course you’re fine.

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Eclectika@reddit

In the early 00s I got a mortgage for a flat in zone 2 London just on my wage.

If it took 2 of you to get a mortgage then you are doing it worse than that

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reditsux77655@reddit

It's capitalism.

Wealthy disparity has lead to a system and organized effort to propogandize, and it has worked to some degree on a certain segment of people.

It's happening globally, it's not a particularly British thing. Heck, look at America, since the days of Reagan and 'trickle down economics' we can see the machine that wants to supplant workers rights with wealth to the wealthy. It's been going on for ages.

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PsychicMeditation@reddit

It's just so ingrained.

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miIk-skin@reddit

I'm a millenial first time homeowner and one of the things that has struck me significantly about wage stagnation is how easily people used to be able to afford to have work done on their homes.

Like, my partner and I earn a combined £70k-ish, so we're kinda comfy, but not massively so. The former owners, well the husband worked for Hillarys as a curtains and blinds installer, and the wife worked as a mobile cleaner. They lived in this house for a little over 20 years and in that time they managed to afford to:

build a whole fucking extension on the back of the house
terraform and landscape the entire garden and build a decked patio
move the kitchen from one room to an entirely different room, install new windows and doors to fit, which would have involved carving out Victorian sandstone blocks
remove the Victorian fireplace and have a woodburner installed
basically dig out a section of wall/ceiling to install a massive fucking storage cupboard in one the rooms
dig out yet MORE ceiling to install a storage cupboard in a dead space above a doorway
paid to have the front of the house ground down and sealed to protect the sandstone from from weathering

My partner and I are currently looking at quotes for new kitchens and at minimum it's gonna cost approx. £20k, and we're like "we are never going to be able to afford this!"

How the fuck is it that a blinds fitter and a cleaner could afford to have all that work done??? Was it just that much more cheaper to pay for contractors/labour 20 years ago, or was the value of their earnings really that much higher???

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cleb9200@reddit

Remortgaging and releasing equity against the value of their house, same as most people who have paid off enough and want to stay put and improve the place do. Bit that only works if your hone’s value is increasing significantly, Malcolm and Hilda who will have benefitted from tail end of a booming market

[-]

Carlomahone@reddit

How do you know their financial history though? They could have scrimped and saved to have that work done? Maybe a relative left them something in their will? You don't know what these people sacrificed to do the work on what is now your house. Don't diss the cleaning lady either. If they're good they can make a really excellent living, cleaning the houses of gen x's and millennials. My boomer wife did it when she took an early retirement package from the NHS. The price of tradesmen has always been high. Maybe Mr blind fitter had some mates who helped him out?

[-]

miIk-skin@reddit

Don't diss the cleaning lady

What? Where was I dissing them? I'm in a minimum wage job myself?

[-]

expanding_waistline@reddit

https://www.rehome.co.uk/kitchens/clearance-kitchens?p=2

[-]

miIk-skin@reddit

Ooooh, thanks for this!

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jasonbirder@reddit

They lived in this house for a little over 20 years and in that time they managed to afford to

Remember they've been in the house for 20 years...after 5/10/15/20 years the mortgage that was initially a high % of their salary will be a much lower % - freeing up funds for home improvements. Also...once a chunk has been paid off/value increased and they've got some equity - they can easily remortgage to build an extension.

Its nothing new...when you're young and first buy...you tend to have to do everything yourself...as the years roll buy you find yourself better off and can get stuff done.

Bear in mind...people in one property for 20 years...are probably extending/improbing instead of moving to a more expensive property...and see it in that light.

[-]

Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Exactly - this is nothing to do with wage stagnation and more to do with time + being closer in status to cleaner and blind fitter than the snobbish post above would like to admit (their combined income is not miles away from two minimum wages)

[-]

miIk-skin@reddit

snobbish

I'm really confused by this take.

There's nothing snobbish about acknowledging that a blinds fitter and a cleaner aren't typically recognise as being highly paid jobs, and I never stated that my position (art gallery attendant) was superior to their line of work either.

I read an article recently which included an excerpt about a man living in the mid-1900's who owned his home whilst working part-time as a postie. Is it snobbish to comment on the exceptionalism of these circumstances? Do you think a part-time postie could purchase their own home today?

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Super-Nuntendo@reddit

Probably equity release as they benefited from a massive jump up in property value.

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miIk-skin@reddit

"when you're young and first buy"

tfw 34 and 35

I am learning a tremendous amount of DIY skills now though.

I'm also learning that all Victorian housing probably have mice living in the wall cavity.

[-]

aembleton@reddit

A lot of them don't even have a cavity

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Aggressive_Chuck@reddit

If wages had stagnated then those jobs would be cheaper because the tradesmen would be paid less

[-]

MrPejorative@reddit

I went to a vocational high school and most of that stuff is learnable in <100 hours to a high standard. I learned it while doing 7 other subjects. Kids in my class at school were making beautiful cabinets with the same level as training as I got.

I wasn't even good at any of this stuff, but a teacher offered £100+ for my project which was just some bog oak sandblasted into a nice bit of artwork. My father was a TERRIBLE builder (He had Richard Hammond's eye for a straight line), but he still built our house himself with the occasional help from a labourer.

If you have space, set up a workshop and just learn how to do this for yourself. Joinery is probably the best one because it covers a lot of your list, it's easy to learn, and joiners charge an absolute fortune. £1000 to build some bookshelve? FUCK OFFFFFFFF

[-]

New-Process-52@reddit

Everyone has side hustles these days

[-]

made_from_toffee@reddit

Not only has inflation risen & wages haven’t I feel that inflation figures don’t match inflated prices that they are supposed to be an indication of anymore

[-]

No-Television-9862@reddit

If 35k isn’t a good then I must be poor af on 28k

[-]

fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

Yes, you are. I’m sorry but that’s the truth. You’re earning significantly under the average wage

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No-Television-9862@reddit

I think you’re getting minimum wage and average wage mixed up mate

[-]

fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

No, I meant average. Earning below average is not right

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quarky_uk@reddit

Earning below average is not right

Do you want to try thinking about that, because that is by far the dumbest thing I have read on reddit today.

[-]

White_Swiss@reddit

You are, yes.

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No-Television-9862@reddit

Jokes on you, we’re all poor.

[-]

starsandshards@reddit

Same and I only just got an increase to that amount because of the NMW going up. These kinds of posts/threads boggle my mind.

[-]

PennyBunPudding@reddit

Minimum wage is 24.5k

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RichestTeaPossible@reddit

Thatcher. She made it her economic policy.

[-]

shak_0508@reddit

Honestly depends on your circle

[-]

twilighttwister@reddit

Literally heard this on Jeremy Vine on the radio (I know, not my radio). People complaining that people on benefits get concession rates for attractions they can't afford to go to, "They should have to make difficult decisions, just like us." Just, no. We should be raising each other up, not dragging each other down.

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Aggressive_Chuck@reddit

We're paying for that, that's the issue.

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APiousCultist@reddit

If they're on benefits you're paying either way. At least with concessions some of that is being paid by the companies and not the public. The alternative is that people that have life long disabilities are literally never allowed to go anywhere or do anything, just stare at a blank wall until they drop dead.

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twilighttwister@reddit

Yeah, there was literally a guy who called up in reply, he'd had a stroke at 30 and was forced into retirement by the jobcentre.

However, his take was: "I wish those people could be in my shoes to see how hard it is." Which, frankly, is hardly any better.

We shouldn't wish other people have it as hard as we do, we should wish we have it as good as they do. Guilt tripping is probably more productive than punishment lol.

[-]

APiousCultist@reddit

Meanwhile a huge contributor to our global economic system is the amount we're subisidising the ultra-rich with tax cuts. Half of all wealth in America is held by 1% of its population, with the UK not that far behind. A billionaire living in London has a lower effective tax rate than someone on the bread line. But yeah, fuck a guy in a wheelchair for wanting to go to Alton Towers once.

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twilighttwister@reddit

Exactly!!! Take almost all examples of a scroungers that people moan about, and collectively they're insifnicant compared to just one wealthy tax dodger.

[-]

YchYFi@reddit

That is what people imply by being outraged at disabled people having a modicum of dignity and not wasting away.

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YchYFi@reddit

My mum worked bloody hard all her life to be able to use the benefits when she needed it.

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appletinicyclone@reddit

It's a proud English tradition though as envisioned in that one Monty Python sketch

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MolybdenumBlu@reddit

The Four Yorkshimen sketch is from At Last the 1948 Show, not Monty Python.

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mattcannon2@reddit

Monty python sketch? You had monty pythons sketches? When I was a lad we had to make do with closing our eyes and dreaming of absurdist comedy

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Any-Equal6791@reddit

When I was a lad we had to make do with little and large

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Fred_Derf_Jnr@reddit

You lucky b’std we had to make do with Cannon & Ball!

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Any-Equal6791@reddit

Fair comment!

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No-Efficiency250@reddit

My deepest condolences 😔

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appletinicyclone@reddit

I read this in stewart lees voice doing a Yorkshire Michael palin impression

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Top-Car-808@reddit

That were luxury. In my day, we dreamt about peole that dreamt about absurdist comedy.

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Heinrick_Veston@reddit

In my day we couldn’t afford dreams, we were too busy working 36 hour days down the mines.

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Top-Car-808@reddit

Oh look at you with your fancy job at the mine!! lardy-dah.

In my day, most of the dreams that the people we dreamt about dreaming were dreaming about (are you with me so far?), were fantasies based on the luxury of actually having a mining job.

You had it easy.

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appletinicyclone@reddit

I loved this thread. Thankyou

[-]

TawnyTeaTowel@reddit

You had it easy. We had to conceptualise absurdist comedy from first principles, and pay mill owner f’privilage

[-]

Competitive_Pen7192@reddit

I've found it from failed intellects like people who have been to uni and been promised the world but can't translate their academic ability into real world results.

Like they feel the world owes them something.

At least that's just one sub section of the crab masses.

[-]

lotus_felch@reddit

Well yeah, I have not been able to translate my academic ability into real world results, and it's very shit. I did hope the world might have a job for me, was I wrong to do so?

[-]

MeMuzzta@reddit

I hate people like "Yes well I work 60 hours and get paid less!"

Bro it's not a competition or a flex. A flex is saying you only work 20 hours and get paid for 40 hours or something.

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zwifter11@reddit

I call it reverse snobbery. Even in recreational sport I’ve came across people who mock others for having nice things.

[-]

DAswoopingisbad@reddit

It starts in school and boils down "to wot u fink ur betta tan me?!"

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OptimisticCerealBowl@reddit

i feel this especially growing up in a very deprived northern town. i was so glad to move out of that place, but it’s so engrained in british culture as a whole that it still follows you wherever you go. i’ve never understood why wanted to do better for yourself is such a bad thing.

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Feggy@reddit

This is absolutely the way school was for me. Don’t dare do well or try hard.

[-]

taxbitch@reddit

Same, it was such a shock moving to India where it seemed the total opposite attitude. My kids are in school in the UK but I cant really get a sense of whether it's changed here at all or not.

[-]

Competitive_Pen7192@reddit

I've never understood that deliberately self sabotaging mentality.

It's essentially sawing the branch you are sitting on but certain idiotic parts of society believe it's cool somehow.

[-]

PennyBunPudding@reddit

Yes, I do.

[-]

worotan@reddit

Everyone calls it reverse snobbery, though. I never understand the modern obsession with a saying that an incredibly common thought or expression is your personal, idiosyncratic take on things.

[-]

Honey-Badger@reddit

There will be people reading these comments right now who will be thinking "Yeah thats awful, this crabs in the bucket mentality really holds us as a society back and we need to stop shitting on success". Then they will go into another thread in this sub and claim that anyone who's parents could afford to buy them new clothes is a spoiled brat who doesnt know what the real world is like.

[-]

DependentRounders934@reddit

I feel like telling people they are living a shitty life because they don’t earn enough is quite rude, people don’t want to be told they are impoverished, its the same reason people don’t like Tate going on about his Bugatti

[-]

planeloise@reddit

I get a lot of flack for saying a 100k salary is not a great salary in London. It's merely good. I earn way less than that, but having briefly experienced life on that salary I see how quickly you can lose everything if you're out of a job due to AI or recession.

In London it's just enough to live in a decent modern building, a relatively safe street, get groceries without checking the price too much, replace furniture or white goods without thinking about it, maybe treat yourself to some fun hobbies, enough to do small savings (enough to pay rent and essential bills for like 8-9 months max) and a nice holiday once a year or 2 lesser holidays.

In my opinion this standard of living should be basic. Safe housing, ability to live of savings if anything happens to your job, live without excessive worry and go on holiday.

This is why I will never claim that the tube drivers get paid too much. They understood the value of their labour and advocated for their pay rises. It's not their fault we didn't advocate for ours.

[-]

PileOGunz@reddit

If I was on 100k I’d be investing that shit join the rich. 100k is crazy money for the rest of us.

[-]

planeloise@reddit

It's a lot of money yes. I've been dirt poor, don't know where my next meal is coming from kind of poor, so I really get it. But the majority of people earning that are not living 25k lifestyles and investing the rest.

They're just living (with certain amenities) , practically paycheck to paycheck. I honestly thought 100k meant you were living a very wealthy lifestyle. But in London, especially with a couple of kids, the lifestyle was not as advanced as I expected it to be.

It illustrates that the middle and even lower upper classes are closer to the poor than to billionaires. Most of them are wage slaves too

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Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit

The government has prioritised minimum wage earners.

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rewindanddeny@reddit

Care to elaborate?

[-]

Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit

Go look at what's happened to the minimum wage over the last decade. It's squeezing middle earners.

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rewindanddeny@reddit

And yet we still find ourselves in the absurd situation where people can work full-time and still need in-work benefits to get by. My heart is far from bleeding for middle earners, of which I am one.

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Cultural_Tank_6947@reddit

Out of curiosity, what do you define as a middle earner?

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NiceMonster@reddit

Because it's possible for a culture or a widespread mindset to have a negative impact on the country in which it is held. Hence: backwards britain.

Tax on productivity. Yes please! Benefits for the lazy: Another round! Tax the working man to death: hip hip hooray!

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Amazing-Visual-2919@reddit

Just look what Americans put up with. I think they have it worse than Brits.

[-]

PileOGunz@reddit

Americans have significantly higher salaries.

[-]

Free2roam3191@reddit

The Brits are rapidly heading into socialism and run by outsiders. Figure it out.

[-]

miuipixel@reddit

It is a system designed to keep people enslaved to banks and financial institutions. Everyone knows the minimum wage should be £20 and rise every year according to Inflation. The government is controlled by big businesses and has always been. People have too much to loose if they stand up for themselves.

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_Hgwells@reddit

It's not that people are content, it's more likely people don't feel listened to, the government care more about their own wellbeing than the common people and unfortunately us British are too polite in nature to do anything about it. Times are tough and they continue to get tougher yet for most people this is nothing new so they've just accepted it as they know nothing they say or do will ever be able to change it, the phrase 'it is what it is' is unfortunately the common saying round these parts

[-]

EyeAware3519@reddit

Because the class system is rigorously enforced by the "proud" working class.

In a lot of people's minds literally the worst thing you can be is middle class.

[-]

filbert94@reddit

"I wouldn't ever want to be middle class" - a statement I've heard a few times. For whatever reason there's a level of pride in suffering and hardship.

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elalmohada26@reddit

I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. It’s reductive to equate being working class to suffering and hardship in modern Britain.

I know plenty of people who are proudly working class who have above average incomes and comfortable lifestyles.

When people say “I don’t want to be middle class” it’s not so much a rejection of prosperity, it’s expression of a desire to not lose touch with their roots in favour of a culture that they see as effete and shallow.

As always, class in Britain is about so much more than income, and saying “I don’t want to be middle class” does not equate to saying “I don’t want to be wealthy”.

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Milky_Finger@reddit

I know plenty of people who are proudly working class who have above average incomes and comfortable lifestyles.

Because income and wealth are two entirely different metrics. You can be wealthy and never work a day in your life. Someone coming up from nothing is always going to be working class until they invest into the same systems that the elite use to create generational wealth. The problem is, most of those avenues have been gatekept entirely by the elite to protect themselves.

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anotherMrLizard@reddit

Unfortunately many of the "effete and shallow" cutural attributes associated with being middle class are related to educational attainment. So we get the amazing combination of the pursuit of material wealth married to anti-intellectualism.

[-]

lemonherring@reddit

For whatever reason there's a level of pride in suffering and hardship.

"Contempt for wealth is a trick of a rich to stop the poor from getting it." - The Godfathers - Birth, School, Work, Death album 1988.

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APiousCultist@reddit

There's a reason the bible tells people to be humble so that they get to go to a special place in the sky unlike the bad place that all the people with wealth and comfortable lives have to go do (until the ultra-rich got so high off their own supply that these megachurches started to twist themselves in a knot to explain that 'camel through the eye of a needle' was merely a figure of speech and actually it's a much easier task than it would seem).

[-]

lemonherring@reddit

"And peasant, make sure you call God, "Lord".

"But I call you "m'Lord", too, my Lord?"

"Yes - call us both that same. We're both your lord."

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sufcWayne@reddit

Not wanting to be middle class doesnt mean they dont want to be well off financially.

You seen to have misunderstood what they were telling you

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onlyhereforcatpics@reddit

It's all such BS anyway. If you have to work for a living, you are by very definition "working class".

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arenaross@reddit

I hate to tell you but it's not the working class that are enforcing the class system.

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rising_then_falling@reddit

The only time I hear peoole talking proudly about what class they are, it's the working class.

I don't see much gatekeeping of the class system, except for people complaining that someone else "isn't really working class" because they once rode a pony or something.

The class system exists, but it's the idea that "working class" is the best/most honest/most wholesome one that's driving it now.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

I don't see much gatekeeping of the class system

Go search for any thread on the Upper Class. It's pretty laid out that you have to be born into it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/ygkhiw/how_you_can_tell_if_someone_is_upper_class/iu8zlb8/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1oc7ts3/is_there_such_a_thing_in_the_uk_as_between_upper/

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskUK/comments/1cdhurv/how_would_you_define_upper_middle_class/l1by3fz/

[-]

WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit

All these comments are by Working / Middle class folks.

The upper classes and aristocracy aren't commenting on Reddit threats.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

No shit, but its also a different type of gatekeeping to the 4 yorkshiremen kind which OP said was the only one they observed

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WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit

It's still gatekeeping BY the working classes though, even if it's on the behalf of another class.

As they said, nowadays it's only really the working class that cares about class.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

That isn't what they said, we'll have to agree to disagree

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WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit

It's what I'm saying, and it's correct. There is nothing to disagree on.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

as they said

That was the point in dispute mate, it wasn't what they said

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anotherMrLizard@reddit

Yeah, but who exactly benefits from the working class not wanting to aspire to a higher class status? Most people don't arrive at their personal worldviews independently - they learn them from their parents, their peers, and the mass media they consume.

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arenaross@reddit

Yes, famously working class people do not like horses.

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Safe_Grass3366@reddit

You won't get far here with that talk mate. Most UK Redditors have a strong sense of contempt towards the working class for not being sufficiently servile to those born into privilege like themselves. They might claim to be anti racist and sexist, but classism is fair game.

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Diligent-Step-7253@reddit

Nobody said anything about people being servile enough

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zeusoid@reddit

Err they really are, go on some council estate and listen to how aspirants are talked about

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arenaross@reddit

My experience of council estates are people are just usually living their life not discussing the socio economic theories around 'aspirants' .

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zeusoid@reddit

Must be nice, it’s a tad different when I’ve lived in Ormesby

[-]

Fungled@reddit

“We don’t have to subjugate them, they do it to themselves”

[-]

fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

This is so true. The idea of being middle class to some people is almost like a betrayal. I understand wanting to be proud of your roots but to purposefully engage is self sabotage for the sake of your pride is bonkers

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sufcWayne@reddit

Your issue is thinking these people dont want to be well off financially.

Not wanting to be seen as middle class, upper class etc has nothing to do with money. You wont find any working class person that doesnt want money

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ferris2@reddit

Exactly, Ridiculous that this comment isn't downvoted into oblivion. Absolute shite.

People want to be working class in the sense that they are authentic and true to their roots. It has fuck all to do with wages.

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WhatYouLeaveBehind@reddit

It has fuck all to do with wages.

Well, it does.

If you're salaried and you own a home, you're middle class.

Wage isn't the only factor, but it's money (and more importantly where it comes from) is a HUGE indicator of class.

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ferris2@reddit

I agree with you. I was strictly referring to the comment about proud working class people stifling wages.

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ferris2@reddit

Find me a single working class person who doesn't like making more money.

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Honest_Country_525@reddit

Shit like “wages need to be increased” doesn’t work - there’s simply no money for it, British companies are pathetically unprofitable.

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Alarmed-Syllabub8054@reddit

In spite of all of this, you will still find large groups of people dismissing the criticism of wages in the UK with “well other people make do with less”. Why?

Who? Where? You're just making stuff up to get angry about.

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theartofnocode@reddit

Because the alternative is people upskilling themselves, and this take effort. So they'd rather moan and complain about the cost of living while not doing anything about it.

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ClausAction@reddit

Compared to previous generations though you didn't need to 'upskill' to get on the property ladder.

Not everyone has the ability or opportunity to train for better paying work. And if somehow everybody could qualify then where do they all go? The fact of the matter is society can't function without people in those traditionally low pay jobs. Jobs btw that are way below 35k per year.

Plus we've also lost the mobility aspect within companies. I've spent nearly 30 years in a huge national company and when I started you could get opportunities to progress within the company regardless of qualifications. You worked hard, you got offers the next step up. Now there's a glass ceiling and any roles from supervisor up are exclusively for graduates who skip the shop floor and major decisions are made using outside consultants with no real concept of the working reality and practicalities of their ideas. The company has gone from being incredibly profitable and offering industry leading service to returning losses and being largely considered not fit for purpose by many.

If someone is getting up every morning and putting in 40-50hr weeks in a job then regardless of whether it's skilled or not they should be able to afford a suitable home and support a family in a functioning society.

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Mobile-Stomach719@reddit

True this. When my manager moved on about 4 years ago they simply swung a 'spare' part in from another team who had been at the organisation for 2 years, ignoring the claims of people who had been there for 35, 34 and 20 years respectively. She turned out to be useless, left within 18 months and was then replaced with a maternity leave returnee with no experience of the work. It was at that point I signalled my intention to retire within 18 months, now I'm one of those economically inactive types that Reddit hates....

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ClausAction@reddit

Economically inactive should be a life ambition. I'd do it tomorrow if I had the money to enjoy it properly.

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LambonaHam@reddit

The people complaining are generally just bad at managing their finances.

Someone on £80,000 a year complaining that they're struggling is always going to sound ridiculous to someone earning £40,000 a year.

Why are we so content with financial exploitation and a glass ceiling being put over our heads? It’s asinine.

More than one thing can be true. Yes, UK wages are bad. However, that doesn't mean they are the only reason that people struggle financially.

No one of content, they just get fed up of people blaming 'the system' for their own poor decisions.

[-]

malakesxasame@reddit

I've been watching a lot of this food delivery driver on Youtube recently and it's really enlightening how bad people are with money.

[-]

LambonaHam@reddit

I've known so many people on the same or similar wage to me, complaining about being broke, whilst throwing their money on drink and vape every weekend.

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jessHale011x@reddit

Really?

While someone on £80k earns more than someone on 40k, their fixed costs are often vastly different based on where they live and their stage of life. Don't you think?

Housing: In high-cost areas (like London or the South East), a modest family home can consume a massive percentage of a high salary. Childcare - the uk childcare costs are among the highest in the world. For a working family, this can often equal or exceed a monthly mortgage payment, leaving little "disposable income regardless of the gross salary.

Your comment of "yes, UK wages are bad" doesn't fullyaccount for the gap between earnings and the cost of living. Even if someone manages their money perfectly.

When adjusted for inflation, wages in the UK have remained relatively flat for over a decade. Then theres essential costs, the price of energy, food and transport have risen much faster than average pay. This means a "good" salary from 5yrs ago no longer provides the same security today

I think you're right about individual responsibility, but to say say it's because people don't manage their finances correctly isn't right.

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IhaveaDoberman@reddit

If you are legitimately struggling on 80k a year, you have made poor financial decisions and are not living within your means.

That doesn't mean it's any less difficult, but it's substantially more your fault than the financial struggles of the average person.

[-]

LambonaHam@reddit

While someone on £80k earns more than someone on 40k, their fixed costs are often vastly different based on where they live and their stage of life. Don't you think?

Are those fixed costs absolutes, or are they choices?

Housing: In high-cost areas (like London or the South East), a modest family home can consume a massive percentage of a high salary.

So choosing to live in a high-cost area?

Childcare - the uk childcare costs are among the highest in the world. For a working family, this can often equal or exceed a monthly mortgage payment, leaving little "disposable income regardless of the gross salary.

Again, is this an absolute, or is it a choice?

If having children means you struggle financially, then though shit. You chose that, live with the consequences of your mistakes. Don't try and blame the system, or act as though your life is comparable to others.

Your comment of "yes, UK wages are bad" doesn't fullyaccount for the gap between earnings and the cost of living. Even if someone manages their money perfectly.

If people manage their money competently it very much does.

When adjusted for inflation, wages in the UK have remained relatively flat for over a decade. Then theres essential costs, the price of energy, food and transport have risen much faster than average pay. This means a "good" salary from 5yrs ago no longer provides the same security today

That's all true, but it's not really the point is it?

I think you're right about individual responsibility, but to say say it's because people don't manage their finances correctly isn't right.

It's very clearly the most significant factor. The price of rice at Tesco, or pasta at ASDA remains the same for everyone, regardless of their salary. You don't get to shop at Waitrose and then complain alongside the people who can only afford ALDI.

[-]

Contact_Patch@reddit

"Choosing to live in a high cost area" is a hilarious take.

The reason you have a decent job in the first place will be location. Commuting costs are eye watering so moving to cheaper housing areas is fine but the job stays where it is. Ask me how I know, plus the human cost of those extra hours on your day.

[-]

LambonaHam@reddit

The reason you have a decent job in the first place will be location.

That's circular. London pays more because it's expensive. London is expensive because salaries are higher.

You could just move out of London (or not have moved there in the first place).

[-]

Contact_Patch@reddit

Don't live in London, don't work in London, but still commute for a job, because, lots of industries centralise.

If you want to work in a certain sector, you need to BE in a certain place.

If I moved to a NE pit village and bought a £1 house, I'd also have no job.

[-]

LambonaHam@reddit

If you want to work in a certain sector, you need to BE in a certain place.

But wanting to work in a certain sector is a choice.

If I moved to a NE pit village and bought a £1 house, I'd also have no job.

You could if you chose a different career.

[-]

Contact_Patch@reddit

Jesus H Christ it's like trying to explain the theory of relativity to a dog.

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jessHale011x@reddit

Exactly

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jessHale011x@reddit

Mmmm, seems like you're just doubling down on individual choice as the only factor, which simplifies a very complex reality into a "good vs bad" moral judgement, doesn't it?

You're more or less saying: if you can't afford children or a house in London, don't do it. For many, living in highcost areas isn't a "lifestyle choice" iit's where the jobs are. Calling children a "consequence of a mistake" is a very cynical take that ignores the fact that a healthy society requires a birth rate to sustain its pension and healthcare system.

Furthermore, I dont get your rice comparison?? I think it's a bit of a red herring. No one is claiming the 80k earner is as poor as the person on 20k. The argument is that the economic security has diminished for everyone.

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LambonaHam@reddit

Mmmm, seems like you're just doubling down on individual choice as the only factor, which simplifies a very complex reality into a "good vs bad" moral judgement, doesn't it?

Not the only factor, but it is inarguably the most significant factor.

You're more or less saying: if you can't afford children or a house in London, don't do it.

Yes. Are you of the notion that this is a bad thing somehow? I can't afford a Porsche 911, or a First Class flight to Singapore, so I don't buy them.

For many, living in highcost areas isn't a "lifestyle choice" iit's where the jobs are.

But you choose a job don't you? There are doctors, and solicitors outside of London.

Calling children a "consequence of a mistake" is a very cynical take that ignores the fact that a healthy society requires a birth rate to sustain its pension and healthcare system.

1) If having children is going to have such an impact on your finances that you end up 'struggling', then it's obviously a mistake isn't it? Just lack buying / leasing a car with ridiculously high payments.
2) Your claim about birth rates is factually incorrect. Lowering the birth rate, and the population, would be a huge boon to society.

No one is claiming the 80k earner is as poor as the person on 20k.

That is very much the overwhelmingly common claim. Just look at the HENRY sub. It's people on £80,000 or more saying "£50,000 is a shit wage, no one can live on that". That's not me exaggerating, it's literally what I've had multiple people tell me.

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jessHale011x@reddit

A Porsche is a luxury consumer good. Children are the future workforce, taxpayers, and caregivers of a society. Comparing biological reproduction and basic housing to high-end sports cars is a false equivalency.If only the "wealthy" have children, the population collapses ( Japan or Italy, anyone?) a society where a nurse or a teacher cannot afford to have a child or live within commuting distance of their work is a failing system, not a "choice" issue.

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LambonaHam@reddit

A Porsche is a luxury consumer good. Children are the future workforce, taxpayers, and caregivers of a society.

The difference is irrelevant. If you can't afford something, don't acquire it.

If only the "wealthy" have children, the population collapses ( Japan or Italy, anyone?) a society where a nurse or a teacher cannot afford to have a child or live within commuting distance of their work is a failing system, not a "choice" issue.

Wealthy in this case means 'people who can actually afford it'. Again, a population 'collapsing' is not a bad thing. It's overwhelmingly a good thing. It's also self-correcting. With fewer people, nurses and teachers will be in far better positions to afford children of their own.

It very much is a choice.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

The part below makes absolutely no sense. After inflation wages have been relatively flat (but still trending upwards) - so an average person is more able to afford to live than previously.

"When adjusted for inflation, wages in the UK have remained relatively flat for over a decade. Then theres essential costs, the price of energy, food and transport have risen much faster than average pay. This means a "good" salary from 5yrs ago no longer provides the same security today"

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Exactly this - the media frenzy over the "cost of living crisis" has given everyone permission to take no responsibility over their finances. Multiple holidays but "I don't turn the heating on" bullshit.

Wages have still risen above inflation so things are not worse - other than decision making.

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Wise_Advertising_888@reddit

We are heading towards third world status. Soon Indian companies will be off-shoring to us.

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WarriorDan09@reddit

Sorry boss, I think you might be retarded

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Super-Nuntendo@reddit

Bring it on, I look forward to answering the phone and not fixing their problem either then!

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ukdev1@reddit

Which is the path we, as a country, chose when we left the EU.

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Daveddozey@reddit

It’s no secret that wages in the UK have been stagnated since 2008

That’s just wrong

Average wage 2008 429 a week. Today it’s 742

Inflation adjust that’s 708 in 2008.

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Yorkshire_Roast@reddit

We're not ok with it but for a lot of people it feels easier to just accept that that's tge way it is than to try and kick back against it.

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Known-Importance-568@reddit

Idk people need something to feel good about themselves and the sad reality is that there are a lot of jobs out there that pay peanuts. The median wage is 40k so anything under that should be considered a sub-par salary.

That's hard to reconcile when your probably a hard-worker in a difficult job i.e. a nurse to be told you work as much as you do to earn a sub-par wage.

The truth for those that seek it will find, as you say, that wages haven't moved for almost 20 years.

Absolutely ridiculous.

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Soniq268@reddit

This is such a good point.

I see quite often on a women’s Facebook group in my city (that has about 50k women on it) posts from women in healthcare saying they’re looking for a career change but ‘know they’re on a good salary of 45k’ and I’m just like… your on 45k and here saying your burnt out and want a career switch… not that’s it’s ok to be burnt out so badly you want a career switch, but I feel like the salary that’s commensurate to that level of stress is at least double their salary.

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Admirable-Web-4688@reddit

I think you've lost touch with the reality of most people's lives - which is understandable as you're a top 1% earner and, by your own admission, doing a job that's a walk in the park. You got lucky, and all power to you for that.

But I don't think that leaves you in a position to be judging how the rest of us live. £45k is above average so it is a good salary to most people.

I completely agree that nurses, teachers, social workers and all those important jobs should pay better. I should get paid better for doing a difficult job. But the idea that we should all be refusing to work for less than £90k is hardly realistic and me acknowledging that doesn't mean i'm partaking in a race to the bottom.

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Known-Importance-568@reddit

I agree with your general point but £45k is only slightly above 50% percentile across the UK so only barely above average and if in London it's below average as mentioned above.

45k cannot be considered an amazing wage. It's a good wage but not by much

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Admirable-Web-4688@reddit

Only you've used the word amazing - I don't think anyone is pretending it is.

But it is, be definition, a good wage for most people (outside of London) given that more than half of workers in the country don't earn that much. It's wrong that we get paid so little but that doesn't change the fact.

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Wishmaster891@reddit

any job over 35k isn' going to be a walk in the park though is it

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Soniq268@reddit

It really depends on the job/company/career path. I work in corporate HR, it’s a walk in the park 90% of the time for a low 6 figure salary.

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Wishmaster891@reddit

wow, i work in data and im always having to think of formulas/code and i'm on just over 36k

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dwair@reddit

That's because being able to do an intellectually skilled job with years of experience isn't considered valuable enough in itself to warrant being paid any more than that.

Being able to find and hire someone with those skills for £36k and stop them from suing the company later on is where the real value lies. Source - so called senior Software Dev / Architect with 25 years experience.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

That's because being able to do an intellectually skilled job with years of experience isn't considered valuable enough in itself to warrant being paid any more than that.

They sound junior to be honest, a good senior dev salary is over 50k at least

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Soniq268@reddit

Junior and working for a small company would be my guess. Grad salaries aren’t much lower than that in larger firms.

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GourangaPlusPlus@reddit

My grad salary at a large defence contractor 10 years ago was higher than that

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Soniq268@reddit

Grad salaries are shocking, well the whole of the UK salaries in general are shocking, nothing has really shifted in 10 years

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Wishmaster891@reddit

36 but been working in data relatd roles for 4 years, not sure what that makes me

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Soniq268@reddit

Co-signed, ex recruiter who now manages workforce risk for large companies.

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Soniq268@reddit

Company and career pathway are a big factor here, large firms hire data/computer science/math grads into grad pathways specifically to develop skills for data engineering/data analysis/data science, the starting grad salary is around 30k and progression is fairly locked stepped through the grades and salary rises are part of progression. I work alongside data analysts with several years of experience who earn a similar salary to me.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Can you provide evidence for "wages have declined sharply" or is this just another populist ai slop post?

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

Ew, never AI slop.

https://www.economicsobservatory.com/whats-happening-with-uk-pay-and-employment

https://www.livingwage.org.uk/news/current-state-low-pay-uk

And a great write up from someone on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/1h9pzgi/wages_have_not_stagnated_since_the_financial/?solution=5109d75b8389180d5109d75b8389180d&js_challenge=1&token=bbbe4bf1c9a2b5160829c4be34da58610bc0be94de5bb5937c2843c9f67c2502

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Here is a link to genuine real wage stats

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/timeseries/a3wx/emp

Are you going to edit your original post to avoid amplifying populist ring wing propaganda?

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

No.

https://academic.oup.com/oxrep/article/41/1/105/8157931

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Stagnation does not equate to significant decline. Your post is misinformation.

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64970708

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Again - stagnation does not equal decile.

Article is also three years out of data which therefore ignores three years of strong wage growth.

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Friendly_Yak_2713@reddit

Neither of lose links say anything like "wages have declined sharply" - show me the paragraph.

And you've just linked another nonsense post that is full of misinformation - housing is not excluded from any real wage calculation I have ever seen.

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Pentax25@reddit

Because it’s what we’re told to keep us placated. I remember a number of discussions I’ve had with managers where I’ve asked “why don’t we have this?” “Why are our pay rises so small?” And it’s always “well other people in other companies don’t get pay rises at all”.

Okay but it’s not relevant to here?

The reason they say that though is because every company we work for, does look at what others are doing to cut costs and so all they need to do is try to be a single point better. I’d imagine because of this, the mentality filters into our homes and it’s what we relay as an excuse when we can’t identify the issues

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Individual_End_9004@reddit

Because they keep raising the minimum wage so much all the time and pretend it’s a good thing.

People should be live a decent life if they work, but at the same time, if the minimum wage keeps going higher but other wages don’t, people will just stop trying do better in life.

What people don’t realise is all it’s doing is pushing more and more people into higher tax bands, so they get it back anyways.

Unless they actually move with the times and update the tax brackets so fiscal drag isn’t killing everyone, the race to the bottom will only get faster and more intense.

Not entirely related, but it’s Pretty crazy that the only “Good news” part of the last budget was if you were on benefits.

The welfare state is really getting out of hand.

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Apsalar28@reddit

It's a matter of perspective. If you're living on baseline UC with £90 a week to pay for everything after rent then £35000 a year looks like an absolute fortune and people complaining they can't manage on that come across as out of touch.

If you're on £35k and doing ok in a cheap Northern city and you hear people on £70k complaining about being broke and barely able to manage then they come across as out of touch and entitled and you don't consider the fact they're paying London rent and have 3 kids in nursery.

We keep arguing about and comparing gross income when what actually effects peoples quality of life is net income - housing costs and adjusted for number of dependants.

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Aggressive_Chuck@reddit

If the person on £90 a week is living next door to the person on 35k then they're getting a similar living standard without having to work for it. The latter would be the one being hard done by.

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Apsalar28@reddit

There's a whole lot more to living standard than location. My neighbor is currently on £90 a week after getting made redundant a few months ago. He's in one room as next door has been turned into a 3 bed HMO whereas I have an entire house to myself with a spare room and home office.

I spent more on taking my nephew's out for the day last weekend than he has to live on for an entire week and I'm getting a £20 taxi to go out tonight as it's raining and I'm lazy, whereas he's begging to borrow £3 bus fare off me so he doesn't have to walk 5 miles each way to visit his sister. There's no way our living standards are the same and I don't feel hard done by.

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

Which I completely understand but it’s just the dismissiveness which drives me up the wall. If we can see that financial insecurity is on a steep rise, is it that hard to be open minded and recognise that income is subjective (as you said), and that there is a problem?

It’s the same as when people scoff at the idea of living in London. It is indeed a problem that a significant amount of London’s population cannot afford to live there anymore. Accepting that and telling people to leave is not the path we should be taking

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Qrbrrbl@reddit

Arent you doing the same thing though? In your original post you said its not possible to live a decent life on £35k - no qualifiers, just a blanket closed minded statement that doesnt recognise that income is subjective.

When you have families that get by just fine on £35k in a low CoL area your own statements come across as just as closed minded, and could easily be seen as dismissive of someone who might have worked hard and be proud of the "only" £35k they earn.

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vadelmavenepakolaine@reddit

Being on £70k, paying rent in London and having three kids in a nursery would mean you’re bankrupt.

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Britkraut@reddit

Quite, I've lived both sides of the country for the same wage and it's crazy how different my lifestyle changed once I wasn't paying 2/3 of my wage on just existing

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BlackStarDream@reddit

We got too used to it when we had the cheap EU exploited labour and still haven't figured out how to stop thinking like being able to do the same job for cheaper than Grzegorz Brzęczyszczykiewicz was seen as making you more employable.

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VeeMon21@reddit

This is why I joined Unison and campaign for better pay in the NHS. Dont sit on it demand better.

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Nythern@reddit

Lack of a USSR or any serious competitor to offer a real alternative to capitalism.

Before, you could look at Russia and see a system that guarantees you housing, food, clothing, and a job with actual disposable income (given that the basic human needs were covered by the state).

The USSR is the only reason we built council housing and maintained benefits - it was a concession, to stop people looking at communism and wanting better for themselves and their society.

Now that communism has been defeated, there's no need to pretend anymore with all these concessions. This is why our world learned the word "austerity" from the 1990s onwards.

And what are you gonna do about it? Run to North Korea?

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One-Drink-8843@reddit

Because we have ended up in a disastrous situation due to monumental policy mistakes of the past 20+ years, and people don't want to admit to that, or indeed acknowledge what the potential solutions are.

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thecrius@reddit

Ages living in a society that divide between nobility and peasants tend to do that, even if the population doesn't register it anymore, it's still there.

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louswheel@reddit

just been awarded a 1.5% pay rise this year, that's another kick inthe teeth for a really bad year so far... Our company seem to enjoy giving us plebs tiny wage rises..

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

Happened to my friend. They were promised bonuses which never came. Senior staff got bonuses amounting to £150k

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ElectronicAdvance406@reddit

I’ve never heard a single person say ‘others make do with less’.

There’s no incentive to raise wages if there’s an over supply of labour.

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Contact_Patch@reddit

I earn more than my dad did, he bought (and extended twice) a house, two cars, had 3 kids and a wife working part time in education, 4 holidays a year.

I'm in a relationship but unmarried. Bought a house but struggling to build the cash to modernise elements of it older than me, I've got blown worktops and draws falling off.

It's a weird situation, but I've accepted I'm not going to achieve the standard of living I had as a kid, despite being better educated and in theory earning more.

Wealth extraction, cost of living, wage stagnation, shrinkflation...

So many ways to describe money leaving the system.

And that's without knowing I'll never get the pension deal he got.

Toying with selling my "fun car" as it's sat untaxed, uninsured, but I'm already missing using it, such a source of joy that I'm thinking I can't afford.

In reality I'm fine. Fed, warm at night, safe, but cut my hobbies right back, less luxurys, takeaways gone... If I posted real numbers instead of helpful tips I'd get "how are you struggling on that money". Mad.

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Lemon-Flower-744@reddit

I can relate to this SO MUCH. My dad earned a good wage and had such good benefits, like - private healthcare, great pension (his employer matched what he put in so if he put in 7%, so would they), only worked 4 days a week, we could afford to go on 4 holidays a year - aboard as well! My job now has good benefits compared to other companies I've worked for but nothing like he had.

It winds me up when both my parents are retired and they bangs on about how they doesn't really have much for retirement when they absolutely fucking do. My parents live in our original family home so a 4 bed detached house, they bought well over 20 years ago for £300k. Why do they need to be in such a massive house when my siblings and I have left? Just take money out of the house?? No they are stubborn af. So, I'm sitting there looking at my own pension like fucking hell you two, I wish you'd get your head out of your arses and look at what you do have compared to others.

Even then my mum was like "oh we never had these subscriptions like you do. We didn't have laptops, or internet" I earn more than her by about £10k when she was my age and she was able to live by herself, own a dog and a car. I couldn't afford to live by myself. I pointed out I couldn't do my job if I didn't have Internet. The only two subscriptions I have is Amazon prime and Spotify. Granted I am married and I also don't live in London but it's still a bit like damn we couldn't live like my parents did.

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Contact_Patch@reddit

Yeah thankfully mine aren't "don't have subscriptions" but are very much "where grandkids?".

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Lemon-Flower-744@reddit

That's interesting. They haven't bothered me about grandkids. But they do have them from my other siblings so maybe that's why!

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Contact_Patch@reddit

Yeah, I left school with 2 B's and 3 C's at GCSE, and now have a MSc, stacks of industry experience and relevant qualifications and a well paying consultancy role.

The hell else am I supposed to do?!

I live in a shit town in south mids, I drive a 16 year old Golf, and my house was buttons compared to my peers.

The other comment on "how did a window blind fitter pay for an extension" absolutely hit me.

Treading water at best. In reality another below inflation pay rise and a bonus I get 40% taxed on.

Still, as one of the other posters pointed out, I "own" so should just suck it up.

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Lemon-Flower-744@reddit

I do agree. Thankfully my husband and I don't have degrees or student loans because both of us went down apprenticeship routes. Quite a few of my friends from school/college have two degrees because they couldn't get into the industry they wanted or if they could, they'd be at an entry level, instead of senior level.

Yeah we both own our homes, we should "suck it up." My siblings have two kids each and I'm like bloody hell how do you even afford them. My SIL has two kids and I asked her once and she said "you just make it work." I'm like how? The car my husband and I have is owned, it's not on lease or anything. It's 7 years old. We own our home but we still have an insane mortgage at 5.4%. We used to have a dog but near the end of her life costed us pretty much £5k. Going to the gym classes etc is like £8 a week which is insane to me! Thankfully my costs are down because I'm hybrid with my job but still. I feel like we're just living and not doing anything. Do you know what I mean?

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Contact_Patch@reddit

Oh I know exactly what you mean!

Ex apprentice too, and fortunately work paid for Uni.

But yes, feels very much like wake up, turn up, get paid, go home, look at all the broken shit, go to bed, rinse, repeat.

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John_0Neill@reddit

Struggle is always relative.

I had the same sort of circumstances growing up, and have long accepted that I won't have the standard of living my parents did.

The question for me is will I even get the basic necessities they did, buying a house seems impossible, let alone improving a house you own. Buying a car even, nope, can't afford that. Pets, Nope. Kids, nope.

It may seem like race to the bottom attitude, but I'm fully aware of the toxicity in that and only want people to do well and earn as much as they can. It just comes across as out of touch with the majority of people, when those on 50k+ or in dual income household's, or those who actually have assets like a home to begin with are complaining.

It's probably comparable to people who are paid well and doing well in life, listening to millionaires and billionaires complaining that it's so expensive to live (like Odell Beckham jr saying it's impossible to live on 100 million). It just seems out of touch when people say words like "it's impossible to live..".

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Contact_Patch@reddit

Yeah appreciate I'm not in the "where is my next bill getting paid from" club, I did sort of imply that I'm aware I'm not in that struggle.

Do feel I'm part of the "I'm doing all the "right" things and making zero progress" group though.

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New_Line4049@reddit

Brits are hardy folk, its just part of the national identity, we have been for a looooooong time. We accept the situation we're in and get on with it rather than make a fuss. Its a blessing and a curse of course. It got us through the blitz, but it also means we're more likely to put up with crappy wages. Its just who we are though.

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EvolvingEachDay@reddit

Because we’re being Americanised.

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tarpdetarp@reddit

IMO this is now the class divide in the UK. Those that take responsibility for their lives and do things to improve it, and those that moan and complain about others having it better than them but then do nothing.

One group really doesn’t want to be around the other.

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ResolveEmergency863@reddit

Regardless of your mindset of trying to improve your life, there is always a need for retail workers, factory workers, cleaners and everyone one of those should be able to work comfortably too.

Realistically, not everyone in a society can up and improve their situation - the system doesn't work like that.

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Own-Jeweler3169@reddit

That's a very reductionist view, people work their assess of for their whole lives and still get no where, they live moral hard working lives, the issue is that doesen't get rewarded these days, it's all about 'squeeze culture', from gov to coporations, in an era when affordability for the average worked is almost at it's limits, for example, the Gov managed to lose 9 billion in COVID scams, that the tax payers are funding, along with millions of other issues, something has to budge, because the ship is sinking.

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Saw_Boss@reddit

You know there are things you can improve, and things you can't. Having to be a carer for someone, being a single parent, etc. Those people need support, you can't just expect them to "take responsibility for their lives" and brush them off as lazy moaners.

Putting people into these two groups is just dumb.

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tarpdetarp@reddit

You’re projecting your own prejudice and assuming my intent. I never said “they” shouldn’t receive support.

My comment was in reply to the OP’s question.

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Saw_Boss@reddit

I'm projecting prejudice?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here's a summary of your post

"People fit into two camps, ones who will help themselves, ones who will blame others".

I'm only judging you, and that's based on your words.

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Dizzy-Abroad323@reddit

After moving abroad to Australia, it’s incredibly refreshing to have escaped this culture. It really is crabs in a bucket mentality as someone else mentioned.

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OptimisticCerealBowl@reddit

i’m planning to move to australia as well for this exact reason. good to know it is actually different over there! can i ask what the process was like for you in general?

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Krvstylad@reddit

Because nobody actually wants the UK to be a nice place, the Brits just don't like each other and hate seeing anyone do well. There is a weird built in desire for that whole "we'll get by somehow" mentality that people just can't let go of. I don't mean everyone thinks this way but the majority does in some shape or form.

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Dnny10bns@reddit

I'd argue many are ideologically captured and too invested in a world view that simply doesn't exist. To address the causes would shatter that world view. The rest are just too young to remember how great things were. That period between the mid 90s and mid 00s were the best we'll probably experience as a nation. It's managed decline from here.

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WelshBluebird1@reddit

The issue is that "x is not a good wage anymore" has two different meanings.

1 - The cost of living has risen so much that x doesn't go as far as it did before.

2 - A salary of x is much higher than most people and puts you in the top y% of the population / is above average etc.

Both can be true (and are), but the people disagreeing are generally talking past each other with one group of people meaning (1) and the other group of people meaning (2).

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restingbitchsocks@reddit

It’s a result of capitalism, globalisation and consequential enshittification. Consumers are part of the problem. We either can’t or won’t pay the price for UK produced goods and services. Companies want to maintain and grow their profits, so they look for ways to provide good and services more cheaply.

Someone cleverer than me will need to come up with the answer to how we change this.

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Existing_Doughnut985@reddit

I just left my 40k a year job with nothing else lined up

Head breakdown engineer in a team of 3, I was responsible for the maintenance and repair of over 2500 boilers, every single customer paying a minimum of £18.99 a month, plus any of their private jobs on top of that. Felt like the other engineers were ringing me all day, every day cause they don’t know what they’re doing. Not worth it what so ever. So much stress and annoyance caused by work. The amount of times I took it out on people I loved.

Now I do every single school run, I’m there for my child no matter what and I’m just doing some odd jobs in-between to keep me going and pay the bills. Pretty sure I’m bringing in way below minimum wage but it’s keeping me going and I’ve never been happier

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Proletarian1819@reddit

I work for a small business and if we put every staff member on 35k we would got out of business in a couple of months tops. The truth is for thousands and thousands of smaller businesses that probably employ the large majority of UK workers they simply can't afford to pay their workers that kind of money. There isn't enough money going around. It's all getting hoarded by the top few % of billionaires.

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Comprehensive-Owl848@reddit

I started in one unnamed Hertfordshire sustainable independent restaurant chain and earned around 32k a year.

In 2023 when i was leaving the company and the United Kingdom. i was on 25k a year.

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OneSufficientFace@reddit

Not only have wages barely increased, the cost of living has increased wildly.

I used to earn about 28k and would have about 600 a month disposable. I now earn 32k - ish, and have less disposable income with no extra outgoings than i previously had.

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banxy85@reddit

Because we're mind controlled by our parents generation and by the media

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ClasswarNOTProfitwar@reddit

Slight hijack I'm sorry. Does anyone else acknowledge the reports of war preparations aren't being made fast enough here, should be more of a priority etc etc. Who is the percieved threat and why are we going to war over what issue exactly? I certainly dont want to see young people being shipped off to fight for and against some oligarchs interests, do you? Related to the race to the bottom point what happens when the injured and psychologically damaged return? Do we just shove them to the bottom of the heap?

Again apologies for the hijack but I hope you see it has some relevance

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ChangingMonkfish@reddit

I think this completely depends on where you live, what your circumstances are etc.

There are, as has been mentioned, people on less who aren’t living in poverty. But I think some people’s ideas of what a 35K salary is are stuck in the past.

But as a general point people also have to be realistic about the fact that things just don’t get better all the time, the general trend is up across human history, but there are peaks and dips along the way. The world is in a much shitter place now than it has been in the past, everyone’s money is worth less so things are relatively more expensive, and people can’t just be insulated from that by being paid more.

That’s why the idea of “pay restoration” with the doctor’s strokes is ridiculous in my view. When times are bad, they’re bad for everyone. You can’t just carve out doctors and say “well let’s make it so they’re not affected by everything that’s happened since 2008.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t massive wealth inequality and things that could be done to make society fairer. But there is also a certain amount of sucking up the fact that things are just bad world-wide at the moment that we all have to accept.

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Disastrous-End5822@reddit

The UK median wage for full and part time workers is about 35k. For just full time it's 39k. That means that even for just full time workers, nearly half of people are living and looking up at a wage of 35k. While I agree that wages in this country are a problem, it can also be pretty annoying to be struggling on say 27k and see someone earning 8k moaning about how hard life is when their salary would make a noticeable difference to your own quality of life.

People love to throw out crabs in a bucket. I think most people are pleased for people having good salaries, but struggle when they see people decently better off than them complaining.

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Stage_Party@reddit

A lot of it is trying to cope. Negativity increases stress, at this point yes, wages suck, yes our economy sucks, yes the world is fucked but there's very little we can actually do about it, so why be negative?

What we need is for the govt to sort out tax bands and get us some higher tax bands in place for the ultra rich. Until that's done, not much will change. They can't increase minimum salary because we can't afford to pay the huge amount of public sector workers if we do, the tories spent 15 years robbing us of every penny and fucking up the system.

Fact is, yes wages suck but there's always someone who has it worse. Try and be positive.

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Beautiful-Control161@reddit

50k is not a good wage anymore

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Super-Nuntendo@reddit

I think £80k is becoming the new £50k

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BroodLord1962@reddit

Good wage/bad wage is so much to do with perspective. Are you single, living at your parents home or on your own. What are your outgoing/memberships, etc, etc, etc.

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EatingCoooolo@reddit

It’s not.

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Fine_Cress_649@reddit

£35k is only 27% more than the minimum wage - and that's not counting for the increased tax (and possibly student loans) you'd be paying. It's a terrible wage.

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NoExperience9717@reddit

And the minimum wage has increased from 50% of the median wage to 67%. The minimum wage is basically the only one that's experienced significant real improvements.

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Fine_Cress_649@reddit

I mean that's one way of looking at it. The other way is that the median wage has failed to keep pace with inflation - i.e. has declined in real terms.

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NoExperience9717@reddit

It's both. The government mandated the Low Pay Commission to raise the minimum wage to 2/3 median to eliminate relative poverty. The median has also however failed to rise significantly outside the US since 2008ish and the financial crisis.

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Medical-Fox2471@reddit

This is because the minimum wage has consistently risen beyond inflation significantly so and everything else hasn’t risen

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PennyBunPudding@reddit

We will eventually end up with the vast majority of people on minimum wage in another decade

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Wishmaster891@reddit

i woudn't say terrible given that its not far from the average

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ThrowRAkitty13@reddit

The average wage is also terrible, just because something is average, doesn't mean it's good.

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Sir_Abracadavre@reddit

Im on like 26k a year and its very hard making ends meet, living alone, unless you just want to live in a box and eat beans and frozen food forever. Having hobbies, a social life and dependants makes that even harder. As for the mentality of race the bottom, I'm unsure. But I can tell you that there's a lot of hopelessness. Cos short of a revolution, what can we do really? The house always wins.

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Sea_Director_4439@reddit

The royal family has pushed propaganda for centuries

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mcnoodles1@reddit

People romanticise having a shit time or a shit background or whatever way too much and attack anyone who isn't having a shit time. Surely we should want nobody to have a shit time.

Noticed recently Fred Again getting loads of hate for being privileged which I don't really understand, the tunes are good and I'd heard his tunes ages before I'd even seen his head.

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Milky_Finger@reddit

There's a lot of comments in this thread that prove why we generally don't disclose our income to our peers. The resentment from hearing someone else more well off have a complaint about their cost of living is exactly the reason the culture of money in this country is so toxic.

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DependentRounders934@reddit

Am i not allowed to be content with what i have lol

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fayemoonlight@reddit (OP)

You are allowed to be content with whatever you want in your life. It becomes a problem when people actively try to discourage and silence others who are fighting for better circumstances in their own life. This will also have a knock on effect for others which people seem to miss

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DependentRounders934@reddit

I feel kinda hurt when people tell me I don’t make a good wage, I’ve worked hard through school and university and during my career and make about 45k which is enough for me to save up for my own flat and go on holidays all over Europe and buy the clothes and games i want. So its rather annoying when somebody comes along and says 50k is a shit wage you can barely live on and you need atleast 100k to be successful

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Caxell123@reddit

I think a big issue is the British "Stiff upper lip" mentality we accept a lot of bad stuff like this and other things like poor government because we have this deal with the bad dont complain culture but we seem to never analyse why its bad.

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stumperr@reddit

There is definitely more to spend your money on these days. Some of it necessary some of it strictly not. But wages are being devalued. Since I've been of working age I don't think we've in anything other than recession or recovery

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TheZamboon@reddit

This country was built by working class people that have been gaslit into believing aspiring to be rich is for the arrogant.

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CharlieH_@reddit

Comes down to the “polite society” nonsense imo

Given a narrative. Majority pretend the narrative exists. Pretence self fulfils.

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Mysterious_Coast_246@reddit

Because a lot of people confuse coping with thriving. “Others survive on less” becomes a way to normalize decline instead of demanding better standards for everyone.

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Everyones_Dead_Dave@reddit

Stagnated wages, I think not, minimum wage is up 97% in the last 9 years old chum.... My wage however is only up 20% in the same time frame.

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jessHale011x@reddit

Incorrect

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Everyones_Dead_Dave@reddit

2015 minimum wage increased by 20p from £6.50 to £6.70. 2026 minimum wage increased by 50p from £12.71 to £12.71.

What's incorrect here ?

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jessHale011x@reddit

Really?

I think you're confusing a minimum wage increase for the entire country's wage growth.

Let's use your numbers: 2015 - £6.70 2026 - £12.71

The maths of it all: (12.71 - 6.70)/6.70 x 100 is 89.7%

Your still 10% off your original claim. According to the ONS the average weekly earnings for the whole UK rose from roughly 490 in 2015 to roughly £740 in 2026. That is an increase of 51% if im correct and not 97%?

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Eh-Beh@reddit

I think a large part of the problem is price increases.

If we keep increasing wages, and the market is allowed to increase prices, then the wage increase was meaningless, but now everyone is worse off.

We either need better strategies to maintain pricing, or harsher processes for punishing companies taking advantage of it.

I'm all for minimum wage increases, but the market just saps up the excess.

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ffwillis@reddit

We’re a nation of losers who see self-neglect and struggle as a badge of honour.

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Comfortable_Love7967@reddit

Its location dependant, I earned 40k last year (first year in a new sales job) my wife earned 33k , we have a 4 bed house, 2 cars, go on holiday multiple times a year and are refurbishing our house.

In London we would probably be struggling.

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my-comp-tips@reddit

Energy bills, council tax and food is ridiculous. Just by halving those bills would save over £250 per month

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seasonseasonseas@reddit

There's a sense of powerlessness. People can't make their own wages and accept what is offered because the alternative at the moment is nothing.

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notemark@reddit

I don't think it's a case of being content with low wages, we can only take what is offered and currently it is more of a employers market with more people seeking jobs than jobs being offered.

This means employers can effectively bid down for the lowest salary than up to secure an employee. This is obviously oversimplistic as there are specialist roles and certain employers will be bidding for the absolute best candidate but as a generalisation this is how I see the jobs market.

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No-Championship9542@reddit

I don't know, my friends are small business owners and professionals, we're all greedy and fuck and aim to make as much money as humanly possible, so I don't find this in my life. Is like a working class thing?

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Battleborn300@reddit

I don’t know you or the circles you mix, while I don’t know you or your business, you can’t be greedy as fuck aiming to make as much as humanly possible and equally pay your greedy staff that,

Maybe I’m wrong and you can which is extremely fair and generous on your part,

I think it’s also impressive a billionaire is taking time to respond to reddit posts, how much is your networth roughly?

What do you consider greedy or as much money as humanly possible, and how do you wish to achieve that?

There is a huge gulf between wanting to greedy and make money, and being able to do that,

I know reddit isn’t the real world, but you see it when people go strike, and the abuse they get from the British public and papers, generally people are against higher wages and better working conditions, they like to be repressed, they think because they earn an ok-ish wage, that gets them buy, others shouldn’t earn more.

It’s a really weird and odd thing in this country where a lot of people for some reason, are happy to drive down wages and working conditions.

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No-Championship9542@reddit

Why? I said we're small business owners, every does alright, good growth, plus like London lawyers and such thrown in, not billionaires. I've got a 300 acre farm and do weddings and events, pays the bills, my staff don't care about wages, they want my help making their own business (no one wants to work for others) and that I give them my fully support with. One guy wanted to get into plastering and so I paid for him to do the course, we both win he can do it and it's something I could need done. No one wants to be an employee that's a temporary state of affairs while you start a business.

Obviously my goal is to be a billionaire, make as much money as humanly possible, every year for the past 5 years we have maintained a minimum of 30% revenue growth, less than 30% I consider failure. We'll keeping working towards that everyday until I die, if I fail my kids can continue the crusade, I will train them in the arts of making money. Other people I know do things like supply products to supermarkets or airlines, got a few big shit lawyers they probably make like 300k but PAYE so just making the taxman rich, plumber buisness guy etc, etc. Everyone is doing pretty well though and is busy. What's most people greed goal? I don't know 10 million? Ability to fly first class everywhere.

Striking is the activity of a greedy person so I have no issues with it, I mean it never affects me as again I own a farm who do I rely on, no one.

Also making a business, particularly in a few trade fields where your opposition is so shit, is way, way easier than being an employee. I was an employee for years, sucked, I made my own business and even with the 100k in debt I took on to get it going it was less stressful than working for others. You try no matter what, failure shouldn't be an option in your head.

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Battleborn300@reddit

Sorry you didn’t say you do well, or that you make enough to live comfortably and retire early.

Your statement that you make as much money as humanly possible…. I’m sure Elon Musk (who I think is an absolute knob) would beg to differ, that you make as much money as humanly possible.

Your staff don’t care about wages, you’re telling me people don’t care about wages, they serve food and drinks at weddings you host purley to learn how to own their business? My friend you are either on yo a great scam, or completely delusional. Perhaps a little of both.

You can’t say everyone wants to work for themselves, the fact is out of the people who do, only are small percentage are capable, and out of that small percentage only a few people succeed.

I would also argue, if you have staff, that want to progress their careers, it’s your role as a good business owner, to support that, obviously you don’t have to when it doesn’t meet business needs, but equally, you acknowledge, you will need a plasterer in the future, so it does no harm, and you can right off training against tax. So it’s not like you’re a quiet hero, just a boss who understands value in upskilling.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not shitting on you or your outlook, you a clearly a hardworking, intelligent, most likely a decent boss, who is extremely successful.

But equally you know most people are unable to get to that level, even if they want to.

I admire entrepreneurs, I’m not sure I could be one myself, I wouldn’t be comfortable with taking a huge risk, and potential failure. I appreciate that limits my earnings, but more people fail than succeed. That’s just a sad fact.

100k isn’t much in terms of debt mind. Not for starting a business.

Although you may tell me this was 30years ago so that would be very different.

I guess you would be lying if you said everyone who worked for you went on to be extremely successful themselves, and a millionaire. It’s just not possible. However good your advice, coaching and support is.

I guess this comes back to OP’s question before we go too far away, Yes there is an issue with racing to the bottom in this country, and it is driven by people who think they are doing alright, and others don’t deserve more.

I guess your question was, is it a working class thing, as you don’t see it yourself? I think it is, working and middle class, by middle class, I don’t actually think think there is a middle class in this country anymore, but there are certainly people who think they are middle class, and have slipped away from any working class routes they may have had, and have the attitude that others shouldn’t have more than me,

It’s a very Tory attitude, the most Tory person I have ever met, said he didn’t want his kids to be more successful than him, which I found wild, I wouldn’t have called him successful, and that sums the attitude,

People should want the best for their kids and to be far more successful than themselves.

I’m trying to digest a lot here and make a somewhat decent response- which could probably be a lot better. So apologise.

But some could also say why don’t you pay well enough so the person who wants to be a plasterer can fund the course himself? It’s great being generous, but what’s better is to give people the money to make their own decisions. I’m not saying you personally are doing anything wrong, but other businesses owners will not be as generous to put people on courses.

And people don’t necessarily know this.

And why do you have a greed to become a billionaire? What fuels that, is it arrogance? Which don’t get me wrong, people need to be successful.

But the only way I would ever be a millionaire is if I won the euromillions (I probably buy a ticket 3 times a year)

That’s because I would never take the gamble to work for myself, I have a well paid job, which I enjoy, I don’t need the risks.

If I won say 100million, sure I would invest in business that I felt were good, and some startups I believed in, I’m an engineer, I could probably contribute. I’m good with money, I understand it, and I’m relatively good at leading teams I would say.

I wouldn’t be interested in driving to 1billion, that is of no interest to me, I would set money aside to ensure I have a level of generational wealth that will support my family and future generations. I would want to help as many people with the money I have,

I appreciate the more money you have the more people can help. But there is a balance, I guess a billion pounds doesn’t interest me, making life better for the poorest does.

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W51976@reddit

It’s definitely a working class thing. Seems to apply to people who are working part time(like my mum used to), and seem content having more time off work, with very little money to do anything.

It doesn’t stop them from moaning though, and jealous of others who earn more.

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Souldestroyer_Reborn@reddit

Because people are fucking idiots and the thought of having to lift their finger to get their freebies kills them.

God forbid someone earning above £50k getting any sort of benefit for the taxes they pay.

We donate opposite of what we should be doing with taxation and benefits. You put in more? Then you get more out of it.

Being a sole earner in a household with 2 young kids is a fucking nightmare. I can’t wait for the wife to get back to work to free up some money again.

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pizzainmyshoe@reddit

It depends on your circle

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Sneaky-rodent@reddit

It's not a race to the bottom. The UK economy has been doing badly for 20 years with zero wage growth. Companies in the UK are also not doing well, unemployment is slightly higher than is healthy and the job market is very poor.

The way jobs are applied for online turn the process into a bit of a lottery.

You can demand higher pay, but without bargaining power your unlikely to get anywhere.

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MFA_Nay@reddit

Stuff upper lip syndrome means people will complain about the status quo but not do anything meaningful.

As meaningful change means accepting trade-offs and with live in a culture and society of Everythingism.

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dr_wtf@reddit

Heavily right-wing biased media influencing how people think about the economy and their own finances, and encourages an us vs them mentality. Whether that's immigrants, anyone poorer than you, anyone slightly better off than you - doesn't matter as long as you are fighting each other, instead of organising against vested interests that hold all the assets and extract all the wealth.

That, and bots.

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drproc90@reddit

because people are happy being rinsed so long as they have another group they can feel they are superior too.

So long as you make one group " beneath" the people you are rinsing there's no limit to what you can do to them

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RomHack@reddit

I think it's partly related to the mentality where things above us are seen as more important. I find it really odd, for example, when the conversation comes up around businesses and the rhetoric becomes that times are tough and they're struggling so we have to put up with higher prices and all that jazz. Very rarely do we talk about the individuals working for those businesses who are struggling with stagnant wages. It's always about the business.

Basically we normalise the idea that they're struggling, so our wages should stagnate too. They get a bit of a pass for not being very profitable when the reality is that they're probably unimportant businesses and that's a large chunk of the reason why wages have stagnated. It's even more pronounced when it happens across the entire industry. Like an industry gets a total pass for not being particularly good at paying people good wages.

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Hedgehogosaur@reddit

It's not so much that wages haven't kept up with price, it's that companies make so much more profit from us. If wages rose, prices would go up and we're no better off. My biggest beef is shrinkflation - what we do buy now is shit

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Good-Animal-6430@reddit

There's some basic psychology at work. For most people your job is a big part of your identity. Your wage is not just a means to live, it's also a score of how well you are doing at this thing that's a big part of your identity. Admitting our being told that your wage is not very good is effectively accepting criticism in one of the most important areas of your life. It's doubly hard when there's not much you can do about it. Cognitive dissonance then means you either do something about it (which is very hard) or you change your views (accept that a lower wage is actually fine). The stuff about saying that a certain wage is actually good when it objectively is not, is a way of saying "I'm actually doing ok and I do not accept the implied criticism"

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lordconcorde@reddit

I don't know if it is about financial exploitation. If there was lots of financial exploitation we would see lots of profiting from a wide range of businesses and judging by the way the economy is, and the number of small businesses closing, this isn't really the case.

Having said that you are right, 35k is below average and many would struggle on that. They would struggle less if we had built more houses and our energy bills were lower, both things which are related to inadequate policy decisions over the last 2 decades.

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ClausAction@reddit

2 decades? It goes way back.

1980s and the decisions to privatise public owned utilities and sell off social housing.

The social housing aspect created a boom for many but was incredibly short sighted and has been a financial disaster for recent generations.

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sssssshhhhhh@reddit

tbf the 1980s is only two decades ago.

... right

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lordconcorde@reddit

Yeah you are completely right, I was just suggesting that the impact of decisions in the 80s could have been reversed by now if the right legislation was brought in in 2010

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Wishmaster891@reddit

as opposed to where? Genuine question i do not know.

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malin7@reddit

How would increasing the wages across the board not drive the inflation up to swallow the increase?

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Mobile-Stomach719@reddit

Exactly this. It shouldn't be this way but that's exactly what would happen.

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Pleasant-Flan3868@reddit

For some reason it's really prevelent in British culture and I'm not sure why. From a business perspective you see this a lot in online retail too. In the UK marketplace there are companies frequently willing gross 3-6% profit margins for products because of a race to the bottom mentality. They're not massive companies either...

We sell the same products in the US and EU and margins are always a lot higher.

All of this possibly then translates to poor wage growth because the companies margins are shit.

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Mobile-Stomach719@reddit

But then higher margins translates to higher prices so then your higher wage just covers the price increase. Doom loop.

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Dtoid_Ali_D@reddit

British people are allergic to the idea anything they do might be posh or fancy, so they snipe and sneer at each other to keep everyone in line.

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Tancred1099@reddit

The state have created a situation where there is little point striving

What you describe is a natural consequence

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nunatakj120@reddit

The race to the bottom is ironically because we jave so many ‘standards’ within all industries. As soon as a standard is codified (safety standards, work standards whatever) that becomes the bottom line. Most standards are a bare minimum but as soon as one company uses that as the default (eg ryan air) then the competitors have to do the same or else they are fucked. So everybody aims for the ground and here we are.

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kiddj1@reddit

Because the rich need poor people

It's easier to influence a group of people into a negative mindset

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slemsbury@reddit

You're absolutely right. I work full time and earn what I would consider the higher end of low pay (sub £30k) - I'm consistently struggling and it's getting gradually worse. Rent, bills and council tax at the start of the month eat up significantly more than half of my income. This is despite the fact that my employer is signed up to the 'living wage' scheme which is honestly a total joke.

I can't imagine how difficult and stressful things are for people who make even just a little less than me. It's not sustainable at all.

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Mobile-Stomach719@reddit

Conversely though what do you think would happen to food/essentials prices if salaries went up significantly. You'd basically end up in exactly the same position but then £45k wouldn't be enough instead of £35k.

There are many issues in play but 2 I'm very familiar with are:

a) minimum wage depressing pay for experienced staff, saw this at my employer where starting call centre staff were getting paid almost as much as part-qualified Finance staff

b) roles being cheapened - my team were all put at risk in a recent restructure. All the people who left were the experienced staff with significant business knowledge, all replaced by junior staff on lower wages with less experience and level of qualifications (I volunteered to leave as it happens).

I don't have the answers here, these are just my observations.

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fat_penguin_04@reddit

I’m not sure they do? I’d say more people are probably anti-intellectual , they don’t want people being ‘clever’. but when it comes to money I probably meet way more greedy people who are happy doing well, paying minimum tax as possible and value and respect wealth in others (apart from public sector workers).

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quarky_uk@reddit

That is a fundamental misunderstanding of how economics works though.

Wages are driven (generally) by productivity, not living expenses. If I make widgets, and those widgets generate, say £500k in profits, I can't suddenly give out £1m in additional wages, just because demand has forced house prices up, or food has gone up.

Think about it. If you start a company and employ someone, it isn't your responsibility (or practical) to give them a pay rise just because their mortgage or rent increases.

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Logical_Wall_9899@reddit

A coping mechanism because we feel powerless to change it?

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PolemicDysentery@reddit

Grateful peasant mindset is a plague in this country.

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OK_Cake05@reddit

Think it goes back to “stiff upper lip”, feudalism and monarchy structure this country historical had and the attitude that those of the bottom should know their place. The ancestors who wanted better went to America.

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ExultentPisces@reddit

You ever tried racing uphill? It’s fucking exhausting.

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Andries89@reddit

Because their whole identity is the nation. So if you criticise anything they have to vehemently defend it even if it goes against their welfare or living standards. Common sense and rationality are a bit dead if you haven't noticed lol

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quartersessions@reddit

I think one part of it is just ageing and becoming more senior in organisations.

I've seen it several times where particularly older people have no grasp of salaries at lower levels - and what knowledge they do have is often ten or twenty years out of date. They think they're paying a "good salary" to people when it's at the bottom of the threshold of acceptability.

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Unusual_Sherbert2671@reddit

I have no idea why but glad I got out the UK to earn some real money (tax free)

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AdThat328@reddit

I think firstly, what is a good quality of life to one person can be vastly different to the next. Secondly, saying people have it worse and manage is a way of coping.

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AyDerrr@reddit

I think the ‘blitz spirit’ and ‘keep calm and carry on’ plays into this. We don’t want to be seen to be complaining, when others might have it worse than us. The constant harking back to that period doesn’t help either, something the right wing press are very keen to do.

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ConfidentCucumber129@reddit

Part of the reason is British culture. Part of the reason is reddit isn't a supportive place in general, in non uk subs you'll see the same negativity across the board.

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AuramiteEX@reddit

The UK is infected by a mind virus which conditions people to hate success. It's very sad.

So instead we all race to the bottom and millions are happy to claim benefits for their entire lives.

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dope567fum@reddit

Apathy.

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OneDay_OneLife@reddit

I believe they wish to make people more reliant on benefits, taking even more control.

"You will own nothing and be happy"

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VeryAwkwardCake@reddit

I suppose the question is by what means exactly wages are increased across the board

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