Wanting to buy an old 172, advise wanted.
Posted by 2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 61 comments
so I'm currently Part 61, planning on going all the way to ATP.
If I can get a cheap 172 I can probably cut my costs (sell it when I’m done) OR come out at a similar cost BUT owning a plane.
I currently have 3 offers, but via two planes and I want opinions about these offers.
** $60k 1964 Slant tail 172 w electric flaps.**
- Was told it sat for 20+ years before the current owner fixed it up and flew his family around for years with it.
- Current owner does NOT have medical so he cannot prove this thing is actually in flying condition other than showing me the annual.
- 300SMOH, the only good thing about this plane.
- It is extremely clapped out. The interior is falling apart, the panel is sort of hanging off, dents in control surfaces.
- Supposedly equipped for IFR but not kept current. I’m not instrument rated so i don’t really know what to think of this.
- My gut feeling makes me think this plane is kind of sketchy despite (or because of?) the low hours.
- Kept under a roof, but the front and back of building were open. Like a hangar open on botj sides similar to a barn.
- Some knobs missing or broken off.
- No GPS
**Option 2**
**1961 Straight tail 172 w/Johnson bar 40° flaps**
**$45k w/2000hr engine**
**$$60k w/1000hr engine**
- To clarify this guy offered me my choice of two different engines.
- Beautiful interior with the exception of a slash above the left seat in the ceiling upholstery. Was the upholstery cut in order to repair/inspect something?
- Beautiful exterior with only small blemishes in the paint. No obvious dents or damaged control surfaces.
- Some rusty screws mixed in with totally non rusted screws. Did this guy just replace lost screws with cheap hardware store fasteners?
- Some slight rust on steel parts like the door hinges, but doesn’t seem to be much.
- This plane never sat.
- I was give a PDF of the full logs for this plane.
- I love the straight tail and manual flaps. I sort of fell in love with this plane as soon as I saw it.
- Panel layout is beautiful, functional, had gps, IFR certified.
So I’m heavily leaning towards option 2, but could possibly be persuaded. I do not know which engine to go for, and $60k leaves finishing the rest of my training pretty tight.
If I get a pre-buy inspection from an A&P who specializes in GA (Friend, no connection to seller), and the 2000hr engine looks great can I fairly confidently use this plane for 250+- to get my Instrument and commercial?
Should I go for the 1000hr engine even if they both look similar at inspection?
I appreciate any and all help.
ShmupsPDX@reddit
Based on your tone you don't have nearly enough money to afford either one
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Bought it lmao
ShmupsPDX@reddit
Powerful work. I hope it treats you well!
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Thank you 🙏🙏🙏 owning a plane is a dream. Hopefully it doesn’t turn into a nightmare.
Me and a mechanic spent a day tearing this plane apart and he thinks the plane itself is in far better shape than it should be all things considered and he wasn’t worried about the engine for another few hundred hours at least. He said just send the oil in for analysis every 50 hours, and check for oil coming out, rough running etc. He said it would be extremely unlikely to suddenly fail without warning.
Owner of my school is also an A&P and he thinks I can get through my commercial training with it, which is why I bought it.
I’m stoked.
Tman3355@reddit
Yeah especially considering the price of a flyable 172 even a 60s model is closer to 90-100k. Id be very skeptical of a 60k 172 in this market unless I really new the guy and he just wanted me to have it.
ShmupsPDX@reddit
Yeah I just personally can't imagine owning a trainer unless I had enough cash in my checking account to buy it twice and a steady/reliable source of good income.
Think about how much net worth you'd need to justify buying a car from the 1960's at that price that has the maintenance costs of a rolls royce.
Tman3355@reddit
Yeah I mean you dont need that much to just buy a plane. But to buy a trainer that youre going to beat the living crap out of in order to learn how to fly and knowing every single squawk that you cause or find is on you to pay to fix is an entirely different beast to deal with.
Plus he said he wanted to buy one to speed run training but they are one mx issue away from being down for months.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Possible.
Bc of the exchange rate I’m paying more than 30% more for everything. If the exchange rate went back to normal it would be far easier.
AgileCartoonist3281@reddit
Just FYI...The 172 went to the swept tail starting with the 1960 model. A 1961 doesn't have a straight tail.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
I’m talking about the boom when I say straight. You’re talking about the vertical stabilizer being straight.
AgileCartoonist3281@reddit
I've been flying and working on Cessnas for over 50 years and I've never heard that terminology. I guess we're speaking different languages.
Treader1138@reddit
Are the engines the same type? O300s I assume? Buy both.
I own a straight-tail 172 and love it. Though my first annual will run about $10k (it’s in great condition with a new engine…but it’s still an old plane that needs love).
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
The seller told me it was an O-300D. I don’t know if he meant both engines or was talking about #1 or #2 or what.
Here’s what I do have about engine #2 on the 1961
1035 Since Major Overhaul
Six New Milleniums Cylinders Installed In 2017
Magnetos Less Than 200 Hours
New Skytech Starter
Treader1138@reddit
The TSMOH isn’t concerning in itself- but the fact that the cylinders had to be replaced would raise some flags.
When was the last overhaul?
Recency of flight is also huge. Overhaul date being equal, an engine with 1000hrs, flying 100hrs/year, is worth a lot more than an engine with 1000hrs and 20 hours spread over the last 2 years.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
did they say when this was? also, why were all the cylinders replaced?
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
Whatever you think you're going to spend on the plane in the first year - double it
Hangers are expensive if you can even find one, most airports have a waiting list of several years for hangers
there will ALWAYS be something that needs to be fixed and not in your airplane spending "budget"
Go price insurance, parts and hourly rates at a local shop
even an annual is going to be anywhere from $1200 to $1500 or even more depending on your shop. that's with NOTHNG being broken and needing to be fixed.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Keeping an airplane outside is free at my airport. I don’t think I need a hangar for a metal airplane.
In the future after I have my commercial and a nice job? Sure. But I don’t need it now.
I need to price out insurance more, but the parts I’ve looked at seem reasonable. There’s a HUGE market for 172 parts.
I’ll ask my A&P friend about his hourly rate too.
Icy_Huckleberry_8049@reddit
Also, selling a plane is not an easy thing to do.
It's a very small market for buy/sell and it can take years to sell even a well maintained airplane.
ltcterry@reddit
That rental rate includes the fuel - the single largest component of a hourly rate - plus oil changes, tires, and maintenance. And that rental rate includes the capital cost of the airplane.
You can't just say "$1500 i $1500..." That's leaving out an awful lot of the real world.
Owning is rarely cheaper flying.
mikepuyallup@reddit
I wouldn't buy a 172 because they are too expensive. Remember about the cost of parts. I would build time in an rv6. Even a pa28 is cheaper.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
I thought 172 parts were dirt cheap outside of the engine…? It’s the most produced plane in the world by a huge margin and there are tons of parts.
What exactly are you saying is expensive?
Not doubting you, just trying to figure out what you’re talking about.
RogLatimer118@reddit
"Dirt cheap" is quite relative. Nothing is "cheap".
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
My A&P friend quoted me new ailerons for a different Cessna I was looking at and they were like $1000.
That’s the same ballpark as car parts.
Tman3355@reddit
A lesson you learn the hard way is unless they specify including labor thats just the price of the aileron. Then youll need to factor in the labor cost /hr and the time it would take.
AnActualSquirrel@reddit
Those had to be salvage ailerons at that price.
They will probably come with their own issues to address and may need to be painted too.
JSTootell@reddit
A 172 was too much of a stretch for my budget. Unfortunately, 4 seats just wasn't going to work. As much as I wanted it for my mission (actually 2 seats with space for 2 bicycles, it was too much of a stretch.
I ended up with a 150 instead. I have the money to drop on an engine if I need to (but don't want to). And conveniently, I knew the plane before I bought it, so I have some piece of mind.
HateJobLoveManU@reddit
Bruh you’re too poor for this
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Possible for sure.
tms2x2@reddit
How about a partnership? Split expenses 2 or 4 ways.
Born-Jacket@reddit
I would consider an equity club or partnership. Don't restrict to only 172s also. Open it up to Cherokees, Grummans, etc. If you can find an equity club or a 3-4 person partnership, you could get a lot of flying in while you're "in town".
Remember, you have hangar, insurance, annuals, etc all the months you're NOT flying it, plus you're worried if a tiedown rope came loose, etc. I can't imagine being away from the plane with no way to check on it, if it was parked outside.
iamtherussianspy@reddit
Flying museum pieces whose manufacture date is closer to Wright brothers' first flight than it is to today is NOT a way to save money, OR time.
EliteEthos@reddit
This is a horrible idea.
When I plane breaks at your school, you’re not in the hook financially to fix it. When it breaks on your plane (and they absolutely will) guess you pays? Guess who gets to find a maintenance shop that actually has availability to take your airplane in and start working on it immediately?
Look at how much an engine overhaul costs.
I get that you’re stir crazy but it’s not as simple as “if I but a plane I’ll get done faster”.
Sad-Umpire6000@reddit
Neither one. #1 will probably wind up costing you $20K in the first year, if not double that. #2 is going to need a $40K+ overhaul on that 2000 hour engine, and who knows on the other option. That Continental engine is long since out of production and some parts are getting harder to find.
Both of those planes are a no-go for a first-time owner on a budget. Speaking of which, if you can’t afford to write a $5,000 check the next time you go to fly, then you can’t afford to own.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
What about #2 with the 1000hr engine?
Sad-Umpire6000@reddit
What is the history on the engine? If he’s able to swap it in, has it been sitting or is it actively flying in another plane? If sitting, has it been properly stored with preservation oil? If swapped, what about the mags and other accessories?
Look at Pipers. A PA-28 that is the same year, same hours, same equipment and condition as a 172 will be thousands less. Performance is the same, as is maintenance.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
$5000 is fine. $40k is less fine.
What about #2 with the 1000hr engine?
DifferentIntern6311@reddit
Have you considered buying a share of a local flying club instead? Both of these sound like a great way to shell out $60K and then another $XX,000 during the next annual inspection, and probably the next one after that.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
The second one has a fresh annual and seems to be running fine.
The issue with the flying club is that I can’t leave the region for work, training etc.
I’m planning on going to Alaska before too long and logging hours there.
KITTYONFYRE@reddit
find a club in AK perhaps!
solo ownership is very tough. you’re better off renting until you get at least 100, 150 hours a year. the only reason people renting make any money is because of much higher utilization. even if you’re flying the piss out of it (300 hrs/year) it’s sitting for 23 hours and change every day. a partner or a club could dramatically lower costs - though not always an option, and maybe it isn’t in your case. just definitely consider it if you can!
This-Aardvark-1431@reddit
As someone who has been researching aircraft purchasing for myself and my family, I wouldn't touch option 1 with a 10 foot pole. Your option 2 aircraft comes with one engine already at or past TBO and another one halfway there. I would only consider the 1000 hour engine, and only after having your A&P/IA buddy do a thorough pre-buy inspection. You also need to research current AD'S for the aircraft as well as Cessna service bulletins. Then figure out where you're going to get your annuals done at. Remember, buying is the cheap part.
RogLatimer118@reddit
Also on the 1000 hr engine, when was it last rebuilt? Hopefully recently. If it's like 10 years then no. Five years then maybe.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
You’re right. I will ask about this. Thanks.
RogLatimer118@reddit
Look up how often that model of engine is recommended to overhauled - hours and also calendar time SMOH.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
It’s 1800TBO iirc.
I’ll definitely see when it was overhauled. I know the plane was flown regularly but I’m not sure about engine #2.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Yea, thanks for the advice.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Definitely considering.
Ancient_Narwhal_9524@reddit
If the $15k price difference is going to make a big dent in your finances, you can’t afford an airplane.
There’s any number of things that can go wrong on an airplane that can cost more than $15k. If that happens can you afford to fix the problem and keep flying or are you going to end up with a broken hangar queen that sits for a couple of years while you sell plasma to get the money to fix it?
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
I would probably just sell the plane and go back to renting with a loss tbh.
I have some wealthy family who might possibly loan me money if I needed it, but I’m far from wealthy myself and can’t rely on anyone doing that.
Treader1138@reddit
Selling an airplane is an enormous PITA. Selling an airplane with a list of squaks preventing airworthiness is impossible (unless you basically give it away.)
Don’t plan on just being able to sell it if you get in trouble.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Fair point.
Guysmiley777@reddit
Nothing is cheap about airplane maintenance. For fun you should price out A&Ps near you and see what their availability is like. It's not unheard of for a plane to sit for months waiting on parts and shops with 6+ week backlogs.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
My friend is an A&P. I’ll ask him.
Biker1124@reddit
A&Ps are the real shortage
_Sixteen@reddit
If 15k can force you to sell the plane... It's not looking good. There's a non negligible chance that it will happen
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Who said $15k would force me to sell? I said $40k would.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
None of the above. This sounds like a terrible idea.
draconis183@reddit
This post reminds me of that adage....
There is nothing more expensive than a cheap airplane
For me, I would not exercise on both options.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
$60k doesn’t feel cheap to me 🥲. $45k doesn’t feel cheap either tbh.
If the boroscope and prebuy inspections came back clean on the 1961 what exactly would your worry be?
I’m not doubting, I’m just trying to understand.
draconis183@reddit
I edited because you are right-- I do not have enough info on option 2.
To warn you though: The purchase price is just the start of the journey.
2-4-Dinitro_penis@reddit (OP)
Fair enough, thanks for the input 🙏
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
so I'm currently Part 61, planning on going all the way to ATP.
If I can get a cheap 172 I can probably cut my costs (sell it when I’m done) OR come out at a similar cost BUT owning a plane.
I currently have 3 offers, but via two planes and I want opinions about these offers.
** $60k 1964 Slant tail 172 w electric flaps.**
- Was told it sat for 20+ years before the current owner fixed it up and flew his family around for years with it.
- Current owner does NOT have medical so he cannot prove this thing is actually in flying condition other than showing me the annual.
- 300SMOH, the only good thing about this plane.
- It is extremely clapped out. The interior is falling apart, the panel is sort of hanging off, dents in control surfaces.
- Supposedly equipped for IFR but not kept current. I’m not instrument rated so i don’t really know what to think of this.
- My gut feeling makes me think this plane is kind of sketchy despite (or because of?) the low hours.
- Kept under a roof, but the front and back of building were open. Like a hangar open on botj sides similar to a barn.
- Some knobs missing or broken off.
- No GPS
**Option 2**
**1961 Straight tail 172 w/Johnson bar 40° flaps**
**$45k w/2000hr engine**
**$$60k w/1000hr engine**
- To clarify this guy offered me my choice of two different engines.
- Beautiful interior with the exception of a slash above the left seat in the ceiling upholstery. Was the upholstery cut in order to repair/inspect something?
- Beautiful exterior with only small blemishes in the paint. No obvious dents or damaged control surfaces.
- Some rusty screws mixed in with totally non rusted screws. Did this guy just replace lost screws with cheap hardware store fasteners?
- Some slight rust on steel parts like the door hinges, but doesn’t seem to be much.
- This plane never sat.
- I was give a PDF of the full logs for this plane.
- I love the straight tail and manual flaps. I sort of fell in love with this plane as soon as I saw it.
- Panel layout is beautiful, functional, had gps, IFR certified.
So I’m heavily leaning towards option 2, but could possibly be persuaded. I do not know which engine to go for, and $60k leaves finishing the rest of my training pretty tight.
If I get a pre-buy inspection from an A&P who specializes in GA (Friend, no connection to seller), and the 2000hr engine looks great can I fairly confidently use this plane for 250+- to get my Instrument and commercial?
Should I go for the 1000hr engine even if they both look similar at inspection?
I appreciate any and all help.
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
Questions about this comment? Please see this wiki post before contacting the mods.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.