35 Hours of Flight and Still Cannot Land the Plane
Posted by CurrentTop3460@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 62 comments
I'm a student pilot with 35 hours of flight and still can't land the plane. The reason is that I have had only 2 landing classes for a total of 14 landings. The rest of the hours has been practicing maneuvers.
Regarding the maneuvers, I haven’t fully mastered any of them yet. I can perform them well most of the time, but sometimes I make mistakes because instead of being taught one maneuver at a time, I was taught all of them at once. That’s why I haven’t developed the automaticity to perform them without thinking. At this point, flying solo is of course out of the question.
I have the feeling that I am way behind in the learning curve, both in landing as in flying the plane in general. Now those of you, the ones ahead of me in this flying thing, what do you think?
Swvfd626@reddit
What helped me was stop thinking about landing the plane, actively try to not land.
When you get in ground effect, look down the runway and with power idle, try to keep it flying with VERY easy pressure.
theinspireddesigner@reddit
That trick worked for me! Don'tland... don'tland...don'tland...don'tland...
StageMajestic613@reddit
Any tips for judging when it enters ground effect, specifically low wing such as an Archer? I feel like I’m going to smack the ground thus round out too early, but the ground effect sort of provides a cushion. I’m just worried about busting through that cushion.
Swvfd626@reddit
I'm flying Archer/Arrow/warriors now. It's easier to judge height when you look at the departure end. You'll feel the plane float due to the change in airflow around the wing. It takes time and I still land flat from time to time.
I shoot for 65-70 kts on final and the stall horn goes off right as the wheels touch.
StageMajestic613@reddit
Yep, I’m aiming for those exact speeds myself. 70 in final and maybe 66 “over the runway numbers”.
The_Big_Obe@reddit
One more suggestion for figuring out the flare.
With my students that struggled with this...I usually asked them to add 5-10 knots to the approach/landing speed.
Reasoning, this will cause you to float and buy you a few extra split seconds to transition to the flare before the wheels eventually touch.
This small change in approach/landing speed is easy to clean up after you have more experience and are landing successfully.
Your-Friendly-AAI@reddit
I can’t see shit out of my windshield of my pa20 while landing. When my landings start to really suck, before I take off I line up and just stare down the runway for a moment. I focus on committing that sight picture to memory. Instinctively you flare just a bit high and land perfect.
key_lime_vulture@reddit
A good rule of thumb I used is training is when your nose covers your aim point in your sight picture is usually around the time to start your round out. If your seat is too high or low though that can be messed up.
Another way is in you use your peripheral vision and when the pavement appears to "double in size" begin your round out.
Can't guarantee either will work perfect but they helped me in private.
Expert-Comfortable18@reddit
New PPL here. Agree with what others are saying, may be an instructor issue and you should be the one on the controls landing every time now. Something that really helped me was making sure my eyes were at the end of the runway during the flare (my CFI drilled that into my head). Also, nail that airspeed. In my case, flying a PA28, 65 kts on final and you can land it pretty much the same every time.
iLOVEr3dit@reddit
Make sure you are on airspeed and descending to your aiming point. Fix airspeed first and trim so it stays there. Then make altitude changes by adjusting the throttle and retrimming to maintain airspeed
Once your aiming point disappears under the nose of the plane, look way down the runway. Looking out the side window (some people call it the lindberg reference) can help you judge your height above the ground. If you can't see over the nose, you should definitely look slightly out to the left to gauge your height. Once you see the plane start to lose altitude in ground effect, pull back just enough to prevent it from losing altitude. Wait a few seconds and it will drop again, so you pull back SLIGHTLY. Do this until the plane lands itself.
kwd8660@reddit
Just my 2 cents, I start doing pattern work days with my students when I'm generally confident in their basic aircraft control and I feel they're ready for it. There are students that take longer at this and we do mostly maneuvers and stick and rudder exercises until they have developed a good feel for the airplane. If a student can't do slow flight within generous tolerances then there is no way they're ready to start landings. That being said, by no means do I expect the maneuvers to be mastered! They need to be generally passable. If your instructor still has to talk you through the maneuvers each time then you need to chair fly the maneuvers. However your instructor should definitely be giving you a shot at, at the very least, flying the approach each time, and taking it only if/when it starts falling apart. It's hard to say without seeing your flying. Some people just take longer and that's completely normal. But definitely don't write off the importance of studying on the ground, and don't be afraid to voice these concerns to your instructor. They are there to help you.
Ok-Gold-3739@reddit
The bottom line is that you have a shithead for an instructor. Are you studying for your written exam? Are you studying for your oral exam? Your instructor doesn’t want you to get a PPL. Your instructor wants to milk you for all your worth. Don’t let your instructor fly the plane, it’s your time you paid for it. Don’t let your instructor start the plane. Don’t let your instructor set the radio or make the calls. Don’t let your instructor turn off the plane or park it for you. Don’t let your instructor taxi the plane. Learn the maneuvers for your practical exam in sequence and at altitude. Prepare for the flight on your kneeboard the night before. Remember this! Every time you are the pilot in charge prepare to be stupid.
Only-Figure4829@reddit
Talk to your instructor about your concerns, that’s the only way you guys can get out and start doing pattern work.
Sometimes talking out loud what you’re doing helps while you’re doing it. “I’m a little fast, correcting”, “I’m aiming for the numbers.” Etc. Brief every approach and landing, even if it’s just in your head.
The centerline should be straight on final from your POV- look from the end to the beginning and it should be straight. You might be crabbed, but the line should be straight.
Another thing that will help you is to chair fly everyday. You want your patterns to be totally standardized, downwind pattern distance and speed= same every time. Abeam the numbers, power reduced to 1500rpm, flaps 1. That’s just an example, you do whatever you’re supposed to do. But know your pattern procedure down cold. That frees up mental space to see the bigger picture and you can focus more on flying and correcting. If you know what the standard is, you’ll be able to recognize when you get out of it and then make corrections. Sloppy pattern almost guarantees it’s gonna be a tough approach and landing.
What specifically do you think is the hardest part?
Also- don’t get too discouraged, once it clicks, it clicks. And even at 8300hrs I still have crappy landings so don’t sweat it too much. Just keep practicing
Stocksonnablock@reddit
Wow 35 whole hours! Might as well just give up and hang up the hat! I’m kidding, everyone learns at a different pace dude. You’ll be okay. Just keep practicing and consistently show up to fly every week. You should be flying at least 3 times a week. I’d honestly recommend 4-5 times a week when you’re learning landings. Repetition, repetition, repetition.
theonlyski@reddit
Are you in a part 141 or part 61 school?
CurrentTop3460@reddit (OP)
Part 61
theonlyski@reddit
Find a new instructor or a new school if you can. This sounds like a poorly executed 61 plan and that isn't going to help you at all.
EldenLord876@reddit
I was going to say the same, try a new instructor or have a conversation. From what I’ve experienced and witnessed, you’re not supposed to move on to maneuvers until you land the plane so you can do your first solo (3 laps in the pattern)
mikepuyallup@reddit
Run
0O00OO0OO0O0O00O0O0O@reddit
I did the basics for about 4-5 lessons then it was landings every lesson until I solo'd
35 hours with two landing lessons is crazy
Ordinary_Mark144@reddit
“2 landing classes” major 141 vibes there lol
s2soviet@reddit
Once you come into the flare, stare down at the end of the runway. Then I like thinking of the flare as a two-stage process, first you round-out, keeping the plane parallel with the runway, as you keep holding the plane straight, it’s going to loose energy. Once you loose enough energy, you’ll feel the airplane wants to land, that’s when you keep adding back pressure, not too much, don’t balloon.
And then suddenly you’re back on the ground.
Not sure if this makes sense. If it doesn’t, disregard it and just go to your instructor for help.
Jwylde2@reddit
Ditch the “pitch = airspeed/power = altitude” mindset.
Stop “flaring”. The flare is not an intentional maneuver that you purposely do, but a maneuver the plane does on its own as you add back pressure when it gets slow enough. Your mindset is only to keep the airplane from landing with very little to no power. Land like you’re trying not to land.
Downwind abeam…slow to white arc, 10° flaps, power to 1500 RPM, pitch to the approach sight picture. Leave the power where it is.
Base…20° flaps, maintain the approach sight picture, recheck power at 1500 RPM.
Final…maintain the picture all the way down. Keep power at 1500 RPM.
At the threshold…walk the power out, level off. Don’t let it land. Very very small and sparing addition of back pressure…just enough to hold it off the ground. You’ll feel the yoke get heavier and require more back pressure to keep the airplane flying.
Don’t let it land…Don’t let it land…Don’t let it land…Don’t let it land…
Chirp chirp…TOUCHDOWN! GREASER!
Middle_Fix1487@reddit
I'm currently a part 61 student with ~15 hours. I was not confident in my landings so asked my instructor to drill them. We spent 3-4 consecutive lessons in the pattern just practicing them over and over again. I'm much more confident in them now, I reccomend asking your instructor if you can spend a few lessons drilling landings. It's just like any other skill, it takes practice.
Accurate-Limit-6146@reddit
I landed in my 2nd lesson, solo’d after 9 hours and doing solo navigation ex’s after 19, sounds like your school isn’t great. I am UK so it may be different, but that definitely doesn’t sound right
stickJ0ckey@reddit
This is a skill, it takes time to develop.
Most people need more than 35 hours / 14 landings. I've only started getting my landings right at about the 200th attempt.
Don't worry about it and keep practicing!
Atlas-God316@reddit
Im following the terminology, but as a UK student pilot, I was moved on to circuits fairly quickly and did not stop until my solo. Albeit a few practised forced landings and a club fly out to France
Special-Ad1307@reddit
Honestly landings kind of come near the end of your training when you are practicing short/soft fields. If you are part 61 you should be able to ask your instructor if you guys can just fly closed traffic and do a bunch of landings at pretty much any time
Wedge_Donovan@reddit
OP said his instructor will land the audience at the end of a lesson. How do you solo of you can't land the airplane at all?
That instructor or school is just milking OP for cash.
ltcterry@reddit
There seems to be a lot of excuses in that blob of text.
As I perused r/flying the post immediately before this one was from someone who passed Sport in 32 hours. Interesting juxtaposition.
You can’t land if you can’t fly. But by now you should have had at least a few more chances to try. I’d encourage you to try 2-3 fights with a different instructor.
Ill-Nectarine5843@reddit
Switch schools.
777simmer@reddit
17 hours and 37 landings in here, normally just two lessons left until the solo, so your progress does indeed feel slow to me. That's not on you though, teaching all manoeuvres at once sounds like a terrible idea.
If you feel like you haven't mastered some manoeuvres yet, just ask your CFI: "Hey, I don't feel comfortable yet executing X, can we dedicate this entire lesson to it?" If they refuse, then I'd say find another school.
About the landings, here are a few things that I try to focus on: - Memorize the power settings see you want to see on approach and actively look for them. In the beginning I just set the throttle based on my feeling, if you come in too fast you'll definitely screw up the landing, so I've learnt to actively look at the engine parameters on approach. - Try to memorize what a 3° path looks like so you can detect immediately if you're low or high - During the flare, look in the distance! All my bad landings, I looked right in front of me and then slammed it onto the runway, whereas looking in the distance, gently increasing backpressure and refusing to land the plane resulted in a (relatively) buttery landing
Don't give up, and good luck!
bgrant902@reddit
14 landings is nothing man, you just need practice. I’d be worried your CFI is stealing time from you.
PS: Eyes to the end of the runway, always eyes to the end of the runway
Unremarkable_Potato_@reddit
I learned in a diamond, so also low wing. Get to a low traffic airport and get your instructor to show you how to skud run it. Works best if you’ve got some runway to play with but getting into ground effect and then just holding it there really helped me dial it in. Done right with a competent instructor worst case you tap the runway and then just go around. Don’t trip on the hours. I wasted a lot of hours being worried about how long it was taking rather than just focusing on learning and improving. I took my check ride at 90. My DPE told me he was at 100 even when he got his PPL. A new instructor isn’t a bad idea either. Even if it’s just for a couple flights fly with someone else. My first instructor was a good guy and was trying, but we just didn’t mesh. Flew with a couple different instructors before I found someone that spoke my language and let me understand it.
jawshoeaw@reddit
at 100 hours my landings sucked unless it was dead calm. keep at it.
Imperial_Citizen_00@reddit
90 hours and my landings still aren’t the cleanest, do you walk away at the end of every flight and get to go home?
They are good enough…
New_Amphibian_8883@reddit
I had a student that I inherited from 3 other instructors who hadn’t soloed in 125 hours. He made it fine. Hang in there and probably find a new instructor.
BarnackBro1914@reddit
None of us knows your situation, there are many reasons why a student can take longer to learn. Did you talk to your CFI, did you ask them how you are doing?
FWIW: I solo'ed at 45 hours.
How much chair flying are you doing? In between flights, chair fly as much as possible; you learn on the ground, so you can execute in the air.
Chair flying does not have to be a big deal, you can verbalize the maneuvers just about anywhere, anytime.
Good luck.
gritsource@reddit
A lot of great input here, also consider using MS flight simulator (or equivalent) and appropriate controls to simulate the process. The sim isn't real flight, but it is valid for practicing (and structuring your thinking) for your pattern entry and procedures. Does your school give you access to a simulator of any kind?
LTZheavy@reddit
Yeah, no. It takes time to "master" stuff, but if you don't have the basics down, I tend to think it's an instructor issue. It seems to me that your instructor is padding his own log book at your expense and you need someone new.
uhoh93@reddit
I was doing landings on my first flight, I’m at 141 school. Granted I heard my controls many timesuntil about 60 landings, that’s when it finally clicked for me.
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
I think you answered your own question. You can land the plane very well because you haven't practiced it much yet.
You didn't mention in your message what your conversation with your instructor uncovered? Are you using a syllabus, and if so, where are you in it?
Each flight should yield at least one landing, correct?
Learning the basics in the practice area make for mastering landing la quicker. How are you with slow flight and stalls?
CurrentTop3460@reddit (OP)
I can do slow flight and stalls, barely I would say. Sometimes my instructor has to help me. As I said, learning 10 easy things at the same time becomes one very difficult task.
About the syllabus, they have one, I think that landing is about 3/4 of the way in, which I don't like. I believe that this is the task the student should learn on the first 10 or 15 hours.
"Each flight should yield at least one landing, correct?" Yes, but every time we finish practice, the instructor is the one that lands the plane.
jet-setting@reddit
Then it’s time to find a new instructor.
My students are on the controls for the landing on lesson 2-3. (While I talk them through it, or take control if needed).
CavalierRigg@reddit
You’re absolutely right and this is a major issue for our profession at the moment. Reading posts like this make me think, “Why the hell are these instructors on the controls for landing?” Yes, we are always guarding it just in case, but ffs, let the students land the plane lol. If you need to go around, go around, but the won’t learn if they don’t fail.
MultiMillionMiler@reddit
I was enthusiastic about flying when I started, no anxiety..etc, and can land mostly great now at 27 hours, but let me tell you, I would not have wanted to touch those controls for landing on my 2nd and 3rd lessons lol.
Mazer1415@reddit
New program. This isn’t working for OP. I just want to say they will get there if they shake things up.
BravoCharlieZulu@reddit
Agreed. Unless it's the first flight, or adverse weather conditions, (or the student is mentally drained), every flight should give the student at least one shot at a landing. Sure, it's going to be very hands on, but the student is involved.
Sure, there are time when the instructor should be demonstrating a landing to the student, but if the student wants to watch someone else land an airplane, he can do that on YouTube.
jet-setting@reddit
Yeah definitely. I’m also a big proponent for going out even if the winds are too strong for the student’s skill level on landing. We can still have some great productive training even if I need to just do the landing for us at the end.
But that’s a rather infrequent thing.
oh_helloghost@reddit
Do it more.
RealP4@reddit
A big tip is training your eyes to look down the runway and not in front of you. Do some low passes and feel the level off. Be on airspeed through the whole approach. At the end try not to land the plane..feel ground effect carrying you and get the timing to touch down in the mains by flaring gradually!
Hideo_Anaconda@reddit
You could try joining a sailplane club, or taking instruction at a sailplane school (like Arizona Soaring Inc, in Maricopa Az) You will learn how to land, and you will be paying a cheaper rate for instruction, rental and fuel(aerotows are kinda fuel). Once you have your landings down, you can either continue on and get your PPG certificate or return to powered aviation with a lot more stick and rudder practice under your belt.
Mundane-Reality-7770@reddit
I think I had exactly one flight where we worked on only landings. And they were short and soft in a crosswind.
makgross@reddit
Hmm, I know the FAA disfavors drill and kill, but sometimes it’s needed. Someone took the “vary it up” advice too far.
k12pcb@reddit
Tell your instructor next few lessons are pattern
Get a flow and chair fly it, do it over and over, then go fly the flow.
The biggest piece of advice is let the landing come to you, don’t force it, once you feel that they will just get better and better
Mountain-Captain-396@reddit
First things first, just do it more. More practice makes more better.
How often are you flying? If you aren't flying that often then I would say that this is to be expected. There is nothing wrong with being where you're at with 35 hours, but if you want to progress faster then make sure you're flying at least 2-3x per week.
Professional_Read413@reddit
I soloed at around 30 hours and my landings were still ass "perfectly safe" according to my CFI but they sucked.
It'll take a while man
Vivid-Youth3791@reddit
Just flare
dabanana27@reddit
Yes you are behind the curve. You haven’t given much to say as to why you haven’t progressed on maneuvers, which is normal to not understand or be able to diagnose your own issues with such little experience.
I suggest you have a sit down conversation with your instructor on your progress Outside of the cockpit. Ask questions like: Why is it going slow? What exactly am I struggling with? How can I fix my maneuver issues? Why are we not doing pattern work at this stage of training?
If your cfi can’t really answer those questions with good detail and make a plan to help you move into pattern work, then it’s time to find a new cfi.
If they have a good explanation as to what you’re struggling with and are able to coach you through your struggles, then stick with them. But you really need a solid plan or you’ll waste more money and end up burnt out
ReadyplayerParzival1@reddit
Practice more. Go burn a hole in some deserted pattern for 2 hours. The key to a good landing is a stabilized approach. Be on airspeed and glide path. If you’re not happy with it, go around. Once you get into the flare you should be at idle power and slowly pitch the aircraft up more as the airspeed bleeds off. You should be touching down at roughly 8 degrees of pitch or vy.
Ok_Experience1443@reddit
We get these posts all the time. You're doing fine.
Take the amount of hours you're at out of it for now. Just focus on getting better and getting those repetitions in. You'll get there. Your skill ceiling will keep raising as you progress through your training and so will your personal standards. Accept that flying is a life-long journey of mastery
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm a student pilot with 35 hours of flight and still can't land the plane. The reason is that I have had only 2 landing classes for a total of 14 landings. The rest of the hours has been practicing maneuvers.
Regarding the maneuvers, I haven’t fully mastered any of them yet. I can perform them well most of the time, but sometimes I make mistakes because instead of being taught one maneuver at a time, I was taught all of them at once. That’s why I haven’t developed the automaticity to perform them without thinking. At this point, flying solo is of course out of the question.
I have the feeling that I am way behind in the learning curve, both in landing as in flying the plane in general. Now those of you, the ones ahead of me in this flying thing, what do you think?
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