While times are slow, somebody out there is getting better

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

There’s no hope anymore from an 800TT CFI/CFII unemployed 150 hours dual given independently

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

If I could go back I would have never started and put the last 3 years and bachelor’s degree towards something that mattered

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

This is the result when you just see flying as a means to an end.

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

It’s the result of working hard for years going to expensive schools knowing no one in aviation getting advice from sales reps then getting screwed.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I, and many like us, were in the same position.

I did not go to an expensive school, I self studied, and I paid as I went.

Don't put the blame on the school or sales rep, you can do google searches.

Either way, our goals and outlook are different. I didn't give up at my first snag, and i've had many layoffs.

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

This isn’t much of a snag more like never getting a chance. There’s just too many CPLs issued now. Some people have to fail. Not enough jobs to go around.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

If you're anything like your comments and post history suggest, I can see why you aren't being hired.

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

Yes I tell the recruiter that and complain to them lmaoo

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

They just look at me and know I’m a loser?

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

Whether, you want to admit it or not someone handed you a job. It wasn’t your ability to pass every checkride that got you that first job. It was someone extending charity for you.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I was handed a job?

Interesting.

Quit now, you don't have the mentality to make it.

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Please tell me how you worked harder than I did? What did you do? I already know you didn’t go to college, you certainly didn’t get three degrees like I did. You went to some rinky dink mom and pop and they probably gave you a job and you built your career on that charity you were GIVEN.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

There it is! The entitlement!

"Three degrees" "Rinky dink mom and pop"

You DESERVE a job in your own mind which is why you're so indignant and self defeating when everything doesn't go your way, you genuinely are self selection yourself out of the industry because I guarantee I could smell this behavior on you a mile away.. but since you want to know so bad:

I do have a degree, I had multiple instructors and locations, some independent and some "Rinky dink mom and pop".

I paid for my flight training with my previous career, from having said degree which you seemed to know I don't already have.

I worked FT while doing flight training, I self studied and got my certificates like everybody else.

I then began the process of applying (Hundreds) and visiting schools, was hired and began instructing 7 days a week 12 hours a day.

I moved on to other jobs, ferry flying, skydiving, specialized instruction.

I moved onto smaller P91/135s.

I moved onto the airlines.

I have had multiple layoffs and setbacks in that time, decreases in pay, decreases in QOL, horrible bosses, you name it. It's been a wild journey, so to hear you saying its completely over because you can't get your first job (Which i guarantee is attributed to your horrible personality) I just laugh.

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

You can’t even acknowledge that you were given your first job. You went around to beg like we all do. You’re not special, you didn’t work harder than me. Funny enough, I worked harder than you and put in more work, that’s why the FAA gives me a 500 hour reduction towards ATP. I never said I was entitled to a job. I said there’s not enough jobs to go around and I wasn’t given one. Then you came at me. At least I have the humility to know us pilots are all the same and it’s not how hard you work but really who you know. You’re the one who’s acting entitled. Just freaking admit that someone liked you and gave you a job because they did. You got lucky. Treat people with some respect and never forget how disposable you are in this career. It wasn’t just your hard work that got you there. It was people giving you a chance and God giving you health.

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Flyingredditburner44@reddit

I have never begged for a job, but I will beg you to read back what you just wrote and tell me how it doesn't scream entitled brat having a meltdown?

The FAA gives you a reduced hour requirement because you attended a school qualified to give such training and as a result meets that exemption, it has nothing to do with "who can work harder and deserves it more".

Everybody works less hard than you do, I guess we all just beg more and suck up more, huh?

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

You’re just self conscious. Yes, it is more work. I’m sorry it offends you but for every rating I took two ground schools and countless classes for years.I straight up put more work in earlier on than you did. Military pilots get 750 RATP. Why do you think that is? You’re the brat. Just admit someone gave you a shot. You’re the one who came at me from the start. You said by a recruiter looking at me they’d know (Not to hire me). We’re at two completely different stages at different times. You’re completely unhooked from the reality we’re living in here in central Florida. I know 10 people who’ve quit, CFIIs Who can’t find work. At least I know my place and not shiting on people saying they should quit like you are. So go off and keep thinking how you did everything alone and no one gave you a shot because your work and effort is harder than the rest 💪

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Individual-Elk-6759@reddit

You absolutely were. That fact you can’t even acknowledge that is disgraceful. That’s why you’re so arrogant. You were either buddy buddy with someone, or someone gave you a chance. Be grateful for what someone gave you. Key board warrior.

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sennais1@reddit

As unpopular an opinion as it is on this sub I really dislike the student to instructor system. Some people need to explore other opportunities and be pro active to fly beyond instructing as they're not suited to it, I'm very much one of them.

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Bunslow@reddit

Some people need to explore other opportunities and be pro active to fly beyond instructing as they're not suited to it, I'm very much one of them.

Those opportunities do not exist right now. Three years ago they did

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sennais1@reddit

Are you suggesting that bush flying, charter, freight etc doesn't exist? Live outside of the CFI bubble.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

Those jobs are incredibly competitive. Even when I went through a few years ago I spent 6 months trying to get any commercial gig before calling it quits and getting my cfi.

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sennais1@reddit

If you're willing to annoy them to the point where you say "I'm here and will sweep the hanger until you let me fly" the work is always there. It takes effort to relocate but pays off.

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dopexile@reddit

That's the economic reality. More people want jobs than there is a supply of jobs. If there were a profitable way to hire more people to do those jobs, then someone would already be doing it.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

Yeah I get it. I was trying to explain to sennais why everyone doesn't do what they're suggesting and find one of the "numerous" alternatives to CFIing

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

Two things

Insurance isn’t thrilled about letting pilots with very little experience control high performance turboprop and jet aircraft
Those jobs simply don’t exists in numbers and regularity enough for them to be predictable options for most people

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sennais1@reddit

predictable options for most people

This is my issue and personal opinion - being sold on "you must give us more money and be a CFI to make it' is just fooling fools.

Those bush planes, charter operators, meat bombers, banner towers survey flights etc aren't autonomous. People step outside of the system to reality and make it happen.

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

in the us the amount of commercial pilots is honestly staggering. The non-CFI jobs all have massive applicant pool and the CFI jobs are still incredibly hard to get. I think people right now are just trying to get any job they can.

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sennais1@reddit

From my POV most just aren't willing to move for the jobs and get out of their comfort zone. Plenty of work out there for people willing to chase it beyond their comfort zone.

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ALTSCAP_ALTS_ALT@reddit

I don't think it's an "unpopular opinion", I agree too but it's just not rooted in economic reality. The "other opportunities" other than CFI are very slim relative to the number of interested candidates. And there is no incentive for someone working a non-CFI flying job to take a huge pay and lifestyle cut to go back to CFI, even though real world experience would make him/her a better instructor. So we have the system that we have.

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Fit_Midnight_3927@reddit

Shit. I talked to a guy who flys a band around. Knows his stuff well. Just loves it, but makes poor ADM and almost cost them their lives, but says it's all cool and brags about it.

Pretty sure once I got the whole story he flew them into either low level wind shear or a microburst.

But tells me I need to work on ifr. Dude never let me get a word in during the conversation and assumed I didnt know anything. When infant if anything IFR is my bread and butter.

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Curious-Owl6098@reddit

I think that’s true... Some CFIs are better than others. For students make sure you have a solid instructor. I was doing a checkout flight for a HP airplane and was practicing some instrument stuff on the plane (didn’t have GPS) the cfi didn’t know how how VORs worked at all or how to track and intercept a radial (I had to explain to them how to use a vor) . On an approach (which was also a vor approach) they asked me why there wasn’t a glide slope on the approach. I was a little shocked.

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Longjumping-Put3037@reddit

Well…. Think about it like this. Most Cfi’s have been looking for well over a year. 1000 applications no interviews. Eventually your just going stop looking at the aviation bible. Life moves on. Your going to be rusty that’s natural

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Bowzy228@reddit

My point exactly. It’s one thing if you’re actively working as a CFI, or doing any commercial flying. then you’re forced to review. But being unemployed for over a year and barely current doesn’t keep one motivated

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WhenInDoubtGoAround@reddit

Yes but there's a huge difference between being rusty and being absolutely wrong. By nature as a flight instructor, students keep on my toes every time we do ground and go out. Interestingly enough, it's my PPL students who have had the best questions and observations in my career.

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Bowzy228@reddit

I don’t think it’s a competency thing. It’s about staying motivated with the books while you’re desperately look. You can only study the same materials so many times before it gets old. Then out of no where, you get called for an interview when you’re not expecting it and bomb it.

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lctalbot@reddit

I agree to a point. However, if the principles OP was talking about were as basic as he was making them out to be, then I agree with him. Every pilot should have those nailed, let alone a CFI!

If you wanna walk the walk, you'd better be able to talk the talk!

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dynamic_fluid@reddit

What do you think this job actually is? Most of it consists of studying and staying sharp on the same materials and whatever small things get updated in the manuals.

We’re paid to be ready in case that one-in-a-million failure happens. Basically that and deal with weather. The flying is the easy part.

You need to be sharp all the time; those pilots who snuck by when the hiring was crazy are the ones that slack off all year and then cram for their recurrent checkride. At a certain point I think we should start doing surprise checkrides randomly, like drug tests.

It takes a professional mindset to not get complacent. It sucks that the hiring market is bad right now and I wish people early in their career would have more opportunities, but if there’s an upside to it at least it’s weeding out the undisciplined and unprofessional early.

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Longjumping-Put3037@reddit

Get this guy off Reddit

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hifiaudio2@reddit

Does anyone think having a degree (any degree) is going to come back as a differentiator when applying for a first regional job? My son has about 900 hours and is gainfully employed at a 121 right now getting 60+ hours a month but he did leave college after a year to pursue this and I doubt he's going to finish that degree (at least anytime soon if ever). Should he reconsider that or is that going to be likely low on the totem pole of importance?

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

Do you mean your son is employed at a 141 school as a cfi?

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hifiaudio2@reddit

Sorry meant 141

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tomsawyerisme@reddit

You're good, easy mistake.

Is your son eligible for a cadet program?

A lot of 141 schools are apart of them and I would hope he would be eligible working there. Right now thats the easiest path to a regional otherwise its an incredibly competitive market for off the street hires.

Priority in my opinion: getting hours, getting into a cadet program, and getting a degree.

If you have any questions lmk!

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CMDR_Winrar@reddit

Had a discussion with a CFI unable to move on to regionals after a few interview rejections. Somehow a discussion of descending on an arrival came up. They had descended on an arrival without clearance to descend via, and refused to accept that it was wrong. Then said they argued without ATC about it too. Lock in kings.

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LastSprinkles@reddit

Being wrong and refusing to learn is arguably a much worse quality in a pilot than simply being wrong, admitting it and learning to do better next time.

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Im_a_pylut@reddit

Your story shows me the free market is doing what it should by preventing low performers from getting jobs. On a daily basis I am shocked by some of the people walking around that can legally teach a person how to fly an airplane.

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

A good chunk of that 13k are from foreigners coming from places like India, Vietnam, China, etc which are having major aviation booms right now. Some big flight schools near me have been catering to these groups and have been expanding like crazy in the last 5 years because of foreign demand.

Besides I feel for the next 5 years, the graph will fix itself like every aviation cycle we had in the past. Yes, there will be backlogs of very qualified CFIs, but at the same time, there will also be people that drop out due to bills/discouragement/etc.

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

This has been the most common cope about the recent numbers. Not every single commercial pilots in the world gets trained in the United States nor do we know the extent of international students in the representation but some number suggest it could be as high as 4,000

https://www.marketreportsworld.com/market-reports/pilot-training-market-14721007

On the flip side of your idea, the numbers don’t necessarily include military pilot production which numbers roughly 3,500, or foreign pilots actively trying to immigrate to the United States, so perhaps it’s closer to a wash than you think

Either way I’m sure confidently ignoring the numbers will lead to some really positive outcomes for people. You just got to want it enough and you’ll end up top half of a legacy seniority list for sure

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

I mean at the end of the day no reason to look into the negatives and just try to see the positives because it literally doesn't do you any good if you want a life in aviation. Like I feel some people in this subreddit try to convince themselves to quit if it's not handed to them.

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

Nobody said to quite, just to be honest

I’m not sure when being honest with people became such a downer that people think you have to gaslight yourself into success

Especially in an industry where pilots are being trained to critically think about data, second, third order effects, and make good go/no-go decisions

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

Those are two different extreme scenarios. I am just saying you should see positives in the negative and that your mind should be net positive as having a net negative mindset does you no good.

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

Having a positive mindset is useful. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that.

But that’s also a different point than where this started. “Stay constructive” is good advice. “Don’t look too hard at the negatives” “the numbers aren’t as bad as they look” is how people end up making bad/risky decisions in a competitive market.

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

🤷‍♂️To each their own

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sennais1@reddit

They can't work in the US as CFIs though so not that relevant to the domestic job market in the US.

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

Yeah I know. My comment was more in the line of people just looking at only the number without applying any context/trends and why it's not overblown as other people might think it is - like some people are comparing it to 2001 and 2008.

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Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit

A lot of foreigners can't get jobs here. Most flight schools don't sponsor visas for that.

Unless that was your point and I missed it.

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SnooMuffins3614@reddit

That was my point. Lot of people just look at the numbers without applying context and trends.

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

The times aren’t slow, where does this message keep coming from?

People are getting hired at the 121s and every month there are classes, 2026 is on track to be a top 5 year in the past 20 years

The market is over saturated at the 1500 hr and below market. Over-saturation and overproductions is a totally different problem than slow hiring

The funny thing is the applicant pool has so many people thatve made it far enough that it’s likely to be oversaturated for the foreseeable future: your advice is obvious, if you’re not connected, you’re going to have to work harder than ever to break into this industry, you need to not fail checkrides, you need a degree, you need to be a well rounded person with experience

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Ill_Rush9159@reddit (OP)

If you took the time to read you’d gather I never brought up 121 jobs!

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Physical-Program-509@reddit

You said the times are slow, as in the market

What do you think is the main driver for pilot hiring is?

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Naive-Ninja-9954@reddit

Studying never stops in this industry, even after you get a big kid job. You’ll always have a checkride, type rating, manufacturer course, etc. that you’ll have to be in the books for

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Remarkable_Shift_421@reddit

As someone who evaluates CFI applicants at a large 141. It’s no surprise how I have had CFI struggling to teach basic things. Even worse, no safety at all specially in a high volume traffic area during flight evaluations. Not everyone is meant to be good teacher. Some are only in this industry to be time builders which reflect in the quality of instruction.

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chocolate_asshole@reddit

yeah that hits. i bombed a cfi interview because my ifr stuff was rusty as hell. thought the ticket alone would carry me. nope. and now finding anything is a pain with how many applicants there are

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rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Had an interesting conversation with someone who is struggling looking for CFI, time building jobs and how it was frustrating, etc. I do feel for them in some way, until we started talking more aviation related stuff.

We talked about some basic principles from PPL, IFR, commercial, multi… and to my surprise the individual was struggling to explain some things. Some of the things pilots should know like the back of their hand!

I hate being this person, but just wanted to preach to the choir. If you’re looking for a CFI job, time-building job and you’re not staying up to date in the books and what’s going on in the hiring world then you’re doing yourself a disservice. Somebody out there is putting in the work believe that, 13K new CFI applicants last year all want that opportunity to advance his or her career.

There is so many in the job applicant pool now that if you don’t stay studying and trying to sharpen your edge aviation wise; you’ll be left behind.

Just wanted to share this experience

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