Crossovers didn’t kill the wagon, minivans(and public perception) did

Posted by Boeing-B-47stratojet@reddit | Autos | View on Reddit | 55 comments

The rise of crossover SUV’s(and full size SUV’s for that matter) didn’t happen until many years after the wagon was pretty much done.

Minivans (as well as public perception) are what killed the American station wagon. After a few years people got sick of them. Those who had full size wagons, or who were the target audience for them(like the caprice or road master) usually got full size vans or SUV’s.

Crossovers became popular with those who bought the smaller wagons (Celebrity wagon, Volvo wagons, etc.)

I am not defending crossovers, I despise them as a concept, but they get wrongly blamed for something they didn’t do my many in the car community. They did kill most sedans, but that’s a story for another time

I feel like one car shouldn’t be the solution for most people. What I have always done is have a full size car for commuting and a pickup for when the time calls (Avalon and a supercab F250 currently, before it was a charger and a single cab power wagon, before that it was a caprice and a light duty K2500). That’s what works for me, insure the pickup as a low mileage vehicle(F250’s insurance is around $130 a year)and the sedan in my experience has cheaper insurance than most SUV’s. For other people it may be a hatchback and a compact, or a sports car and a minivan. It all depends on what your use case is.

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Limesmack91@reddit

What are you talking about? Most people would have all the space they need with a wagon and it's a more compact package than a minivan or CUV

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Own_Reaction9442@reddit

Have you ever had kids in car seats? It's much easier to reach in and secure them in a taller vehicle. Plus if you have a lot of kids you run into the problem that you can't put a car seat in the front, and you can't fit more than two of them abreast in a sedan, so you really need a third row at that point. Remember, kids these days are in booster seats up to age 10 or so.

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sohcgt96@reddit

Minivan still has superior entry/exit, superior seating position, and since its taller inside far superior cargo room at a fairly minimal weight and MPG penalty. You're not moving a couch with a station wagon and I can't haul my band's gear in a station wagon, and any modern wagon that'd haul a 4x8 is going to be so big and wide not many people would want it.

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Limesmack91@reddit

Here's the thing though, 90% of people don't do those things you describe on the regular. The idea that you'd buy a vehicle that's overkill for your day to day just for those one or two instances where you might need more room is laughable. Just rent a van if you need to move big stuff, where I live some DIY stores even let you use one for free

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sohcgt96@reddit

Maybe they do maybe they don't, but I bet more do than you think. Even then, I don't have space to park 2 vehicles. But you're also missing my point, which is that the tradeoff is so minimal it offers no real advantage. Why would, then, an average family intentionally choose a wagon over a van? Your mom doesn't give two shits about "driving dynamics" and neither does my wife. The MPG will be about the same. No sliding doors which, if you haven't had kids, you have no idea how fantastic those are. Lifting a car carrier in/out with a baby in it is SO much better. Stroller in the back is SO much better. I already have a "mini wagon" in that its a hatchback, our other car is a GTI, and I can tell you straight out a slightly longer version of the GTI would still not even be remotely on the same level as the van we have in terms of available utility.

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rezwrrd@reddit

I've had a Jetta Sportwagen (which is just a Golf with a longer back) and I think you're seriously underestimating the utility of the increased cargo area. Ours fit two carseats and a double stroller perfectly fine, plus all the extra kid stuff like diaper bags, pack and play, etc... Sliding doors are great but it's not as much of an issue when most modern wagons are narrower than your average crossover or minivan. The few times I've needed to haul more than I could fit inside or on the roof rack I rented a trailer.

If I had three or more kids I would probably consider a van, and I can't deny the easier entry and cargo space. But I've driven vans before and I know I wouldn't be able to enjoy driving like I do now. Driving a car-based wagon is my way to max out the utility of my car while being able to fully enjoy it as a car.

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tubawhatever@reddit

Minivans are truly the most practical vehicle for most families. Only thing I wish is they could build a minivan capable of towing 5,000lbs, but I realize the number of people who need that don't justify such an endeavor.

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sohcgt96@reddit

Agreed that both more utility-oriented or luxury oriented ones would be awesome but the sales volume wouldn't justify it. I'd love having something between the minivan and a 12 passenger fullsize but the Pacifica is close enough most of the time.

david0990@reddit

Minivans sucked so much for so long and still do. they've never done them right.

for the past, lets look at FORD trying multiple times to sweep under the rug the deadly issue with windstars rear torsion bar(The video was a recreation of the type of failure they could experience). A man died because of them and they still barely did anything to fix it. The gov should have come down on them hard for knowing it had issues and barely doing anything about it.

Newer minivans ALL perform marginally in IIHS safety tests.

The public's perception of minivans is correct imo. They could have been so much better, safer and reliable and are trash usually. Especially used ones, you almost always have to worry about transmission issues at least when getting used minivans.

randomFrenchDeadbeat@reddit

You meant AMERICAN minivans.

I dont love them, but try something not designed in america and you will understand why they were a massive hit.

Left4DayZGone@reddit

Uh, minivans do not still suck, have you driven a decent one?

Even the bargain bin Chryslers are amazing family vehicles. All the features you could want. Managed 27mpg on the way back to Michigan from Nebraska a week ago. 19 avg city. 300hp with a 6 speed trans isn’t a slouch in traffic either.

Better brands have even nicer vans with more features.

shizbox06@reddit

Which minivan is 10% as fun to drive as an Acura RDX or BMW X3/5? None of them. You don’t drive fun cars, that’s why you think minivans are great.

jonasshoop@reddit

An RDX and an X3 are not vehicles people are considering when thinking about buying a minivan. Minivans compete with Pilots, Highlanders, Suburbans as far as usage goes. An X3 doesn't even seat 4 comfortably.

MDX or X5 both have three rows, same thing applies to their driving dynamics if you want to be a minivan driver about it.

Few compare the RDX or X3 to minivans because they simply compromise if they want a car that’s fun to drive but can still fit two adults and two kids if you need it to. Families for decades had two kids and a sedan.

Which of those vehicles will fit my 4 children and all their shit? None of them. You don’t have 4 children and all their shit, that’s why you think everyone should drive an overpriced crossover.

For a family hauler, which is what I stated they were, minivans cannot be beaten.

You commented about driving one and how it’s not a shitty experience. Hence my comment about how shitty they are to drive relative to crossovers that are actually decent to drive.

Nobody ever said anything about how they drive… they drive as good as they can for a vehicle with a low rear floor and no room for indy rear suspension. They’re fine, they’re not sports cars but they don’t pretend to be.

They’re amazing in many other ways though.

It’s a penalty box with no redeeming characteristics outside of practicality, which is the same as any cargo van. That’s why they are not popular. You can make a crossover drive in a way that can be enjoyable. You can make an SUV into a light off roader or overlander, with a lot of power and 4wd, which can be fun. Therefore, people don’t want a minivan, because they suck at everything but being an ox-cart.

And your mentality shines through. I’m not being penalized for having children. They’re the best and most fulfilling experience I’ve had in life. If you can’t grow up enough for it, good, don’t have kids- but take your fucking attitude and give it to someone who gives a shit.

Nobody said anything about your stupid children.

Grow up, child.

Yeah for as much as people bash Stellantis, the Pacifica is by and large a solid van and there is a reason it often comes out on top in head to head comparison tests.

The cargo and people hauling vs MPG I get from it is solid, and I'd have had to pay a massive Honda/Toyota tax to get a used one of those over it. There wasn't a single Sienna within 90 miles of me for sale under $20,000 that didn't have over 120,000 miles on it at the time I was looking for one. Fuck that noise, I'm not paying over $20,000 for a 10 year old van with over 100,000 miles on it. I was able to get a 2 1/2 year old Pacifica with only 60 on it for under 25 out the door.

That's because a Sienna with 100k on the odo still has another 150k in it if it was maintained. A brand new Pacifica exiting the factory doesn't have another 150k miles in it.

But see then that's the gamble: Inheriting 10 years of unknown maintenance and in my region, 10 years of salt exposure in the winter. Once you get past the 17-18 Pacificas they do pretty well, just stay away from the hybrids, good idea but bad execution.

I think there is a secondary factor here too: Current production of Siennas is low, so newer ones are hard to get. That keeps prices of later model used ones up. I also have a suspicion that its a vehicle lots of people just buy and keep until its super old, then replace. Aside from my grumbling about there not being many at a reasonable price available, the other side of that is there flat out just weren't even that many for sale in the area at all.

munche@reddit

They haven't sold the Windstar in 20 years my dude

Which is why I said "for the past" as part of my examples.

PurpEL@reddit

Wagons got killed by minivans, minivans got killed by crossovers, crossovers will be killed by something else. Hopefully it will just loop right back to wagons.

You meant sport coupes

MagnusAlbusPater@reddit

Crossovers may not have killed the wagon but they’ve killed the minivan for most people for the same reason.

Station wagons for the reputation of the mom-mobile and nobody wants to drive the mom-mobile.

Once minivans took that mantle crossovers and SUV sales surged because again, nobody wants to drive the mom-mobile.

TBH I love the volvo v70r.

It looks like a brick, but it has a 2.5L 5 cylinders turbo engine, and all wheel drive. 300hp in stock form. And, well, thats a turbo engine, so you can somewhat easily get it up to 500.

Yup. No one wants to drive the kind of vehicle they got schlepped around in as a kid.

the french had a good idea : slap a wagon on top of an 800hp F1 car, and let a legenday F1 driver (Alain Prost) and a legendary rally driver (Jean Ragnotti) drive them.

Thats called the espace F1, and it was 20 years ago. Look it up.

(although it was barely used, as the very talented pilots that ever drove it found it to be oh so dangerous and hard to drive :D )

espace F1 at goodwood

JoatmonJeff@reddit

I've been a fan of the station wagon since I lost my virginity in the family Dodge Royal Monaco wagon at the Sky Chief drive-in. I have consistently had a wagon in the driveway, and my current wagon is a stick shift Volvo with the 247hp HPT engine. I've had my share of minivans, and they're great,comfortable vehicles, but the wagons ride better, corner better, and have a lower center of gravity.

Boeing-B-47stratojet@reddit (OP)

Wagons definitely drive better than minivans or SUVs, but your average consumer couldn’t give less of a shit about that,

assortedgnomes@reddit

Well the average consumer is stupid. And the people who care should get what they want and the people who don't care should get what they're given.

Frosty_Ingenuity5070@reddit

Tbh, crossovers are easier to get in as you age. This is something many people don’t consider, likewise they might have more vertical room which is honestly more important that horizontal

Parents have pointed out to me that it's much easier to reach into a crossover and secure a car seat than it is to do the same thing in a sedan. People are becoming parents at a later and later age, by the time they're having kids their backs don't work so great anymore.

Also that. I have a sedan, wife has a truck. It’s infinitely easier to do things in her truck as I don’t need to bend down as much, there is more shoulder rooms and natural more room to move in the back. Like, I can change my son, whilst half crouching in the back of her car. I absolutely can’t do that in mine

hovershark@reddit

Minivans and CUVs are superior solutions for most people. Wagons have a cool factor now BECAUSE minivans and CUVs exist. Car people will always hate on them, but they’re SO much easier to live with than a wagon.

Nate_Hornblower@reddit

Wagons do not have a cool factor.

flopjul@reddit

Car people hating on wagons?

I guess in the US but here in Europe they deffinetly arent with the Audi RS6, SEAT Leon Cupra ST, VW Golf R Estate, Ford Focus ST Wagon and both BMW and Mercedes have had high performance stations as well all of these are quite popular to say the least and there are deffinetly more

donutsnail@reddit

“Car people will always hate on them” the “them” in that sentence was minivans and CUVs

ezmobee_work@reddit

My dad loved wagons but back in '93 he was offered a Caravan as a company car or a Century wagon. The Caravan came standard with a tape deck and he'd have had to kick in some of his own money for one in the Buick so he got the Caravan. He absolutely loved it and has had a van now ever since.

BeerStop@reddit

Station wagons are still here they are just labeled as smsll suv or cuv, title says wagon dealer says small suv...lol

edthesmokebeard@reddit

Federal gas mileage rules killed the wagon.

zed_patrol@reddit

Wagons are alive and well. What do you think a Chevy Traverse is? It's a big effing wagon with a lift kit. So really the wagons won in the end. They tricked folks into buying them.

DMCinDet@reddit

Minivans arent dead. US domestic minvans are dead because they couldnt compete.

wrongwayup@reddit

Gen X kids have memories of being driven around in mom's clapped out woody wagon when their cool friends were loading into new minivans with captain's chairs. That killed the wagon.

Then, Millenial kids have memories of being driven around in mom's clapped out minivan when their cool friends were being loaded into "cool" crossovers, which looked just like the even cooler SUVs. That killed the minivan.

Remains to be seen what will kill the crossover, but we seem to have devolved them back into basically just tall regular cars rather than actually having any extra capabilities of their own.

aliennick4812@reddit

Now we just need a new IP where Margo Robbie fawns over a second Gen fiero and ill be back on top!

Meister1888@reddit

A lot of this was driven by government rules and regulations.

I blame the Vacation movies

the wagon is a big character in those films (esp the first one) and the whole thing is a sign of how Chevy Chase has gotten old and lame as a family man and we see him longing for other cars in the film. As an owner of a wagon, like 60% of the people who comment on it mention the Family Truckster. People remember that car and not in a positive way

The Family Truckster only perpetuated a reputation that wagons had already gained all on their own. It wouldn’t land as a joke if many did not already have that perception from their experiences with the tremendous American wagons of the decades prior.