What are the worst things Greece has committed in the past?
Posted by CalydonianBoar@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 136 comments
Drawing inspiration from the Bulgarian redditor who has posted the same question for his country some days ago, I will do the unpatriotic thing and collect a series of downvotes by asking the same thing for Greece.
Thinks that we don't usually hear in Greece. Not something very well known, to broaden my knowledge. For example, Turks dont go posting all the time about the 1919-1922 war crimes, everybody knows (i believe, Greece has admitted it on paper on the Lausanne treaty).
All keep the graphic level of descriptions low, we are a family friendly channel.
Natural_Scholar_1502@reddit
The Tripolitsa massacre. I know Greek people see this as a victory for independence but Turks see this as a war crime
Al_Bundy95@reddit
It's funny when 'massive' massacre of Turks by Greeks is around 10k victims, while known turkish massacres sums up to few milions of victims. Different scale.
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İ mean, it İS a warcrime though
Like thats what its classified as internationally
Proper-Matter-8274@reddit
I wish everyone followed this rule
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
İ dont judge, İ dont think these labels help anyone live a better life and İ certainly think that they're more of a political tool than an actual scale on which to judge morality.
But İ do find it funny that whenever an unexpected ally is revealed to have dirt on their hands its rarely recognized. Which just proves my point that all the talk about genocides and human rights is less about improving morality and more about shunning, shaming and extortion.
After all if you're a victim you can demand reparations. So people willingly want to be a victim to be able to make ludicrous demands. Thats why İ dont trust any of this humanitarian bs, İ'm sick of it. İ'd much rather look towards the future where we cooperate diplomatically.
DatHistoryLad@reddit
Believe it or not, Tripolitsa is shown as both a great victory and a sad massacre, that's what I remember anyways, I don't remember anything pleasant being depicted following the siege
smurfk@reddit
The way Achiles treated Hector's remains was kinda disrespectful. But I'm really glad he sorted it out with Hector's father...
SocratesVis@reddit
There are many such events, as the comments point out. However, it's unfortunately true that most of these are not recognised officially and totally not accepted to be true by the general population. You can have greeks who firmly believe that their country did nothing wrong and didn't conduct any atrocious act, while greece was always the target of violence by other ethnic groups. The most is to accept the atrocities made by greeks to other greeks in our civil wars, but not always.
Many greeks will feel offended by these historical events when they are read by other countries' view point. Only in junior high school history there were a few instances where we could see different point of views in history, which was very interesting and important, but very few (such as in the balkan wars).
I'm not saying that other nations didn't commit war crimes and other atrocities against greeks, they have been documented in history.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
From a Bulgarian perspective the ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians from Macedonia post second Balkan war and the suppression and assimilation of Bulgarian identity in that region. In 1936 Metaxas even banned the use of Bulgarian.
Similar expulsion and suppression policies against Turks/ Muslims in newly conquered Greek territories post Balkan war 1 and obviously WW1. Justin McCarthy has been accused of being pro Turkish but the numbers he presents are pretty staggering.
Basically, the pursuit of Greater… is typically the cause of a lot of atrocities.
biglbiglbigl@reddit
I am not trying to start yet another fight here just a simple question regarding our shared history. Many people who were labeled communists and had to flee Greece from Aegean Macedonia have descendants that live in todays Macedonia.
One of whom is my now late geography teacher who fled to Uzbekistan first, then Poland and eventually settled in Macedonia. In his words, him and his parents and grandparents (he was born not long after WW2), they all identified as Macedonians and therefore it was only logical to return to Macedonia and not Bulgaria.
So my question is, how come Bulgaria claims the slavic people of Aegean Macedonia as Bulgarians when they themselves (even before Tito) identified themselves as a separate entity?
Capital-Driver7843@reddit
Here a similarly story, my family origins on my parents side are from Macedonia region (Kukush, now Kilkis and from the lakes area, but never knew the name of the exact village). They moved in Bulgaria after the Balkan wars and were always with very strong patriotic Bulgarian self identity. My late grand-grand father was a medic and died in WW II killed by Serbs (even found an article in the city archive from that time many years ago). In addition, if you are interested you can find many streets in Sofia with names of villages and towns from Macedonia region. The reason - refugees from these areas settled in Sofia during the wars. I would recommend reading the original version of Dimitar Talev tetralogy, I think it captures the spirit of the times, without being biased as it was written way before this Macedonian-Bulgarian identification query. However… the reality today is that two nations exist a Bulgarian and Macedonian. How they were formed, shaped and evolved is a different subject.
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
Those communists fled during the Greek Civil War in the late 1940s. By then, a nascent ethnic Macedonian identity had formed among them. While not universally true, they also tended to be descended from people that we in Macedonia might label Grecomans (Гркомани) who were always less likely to identify as Bulgarians. If you look at earlier waves of refugees, though, they almost all identified as Bulgarian. This includes hundreds of thousands of people who fled to Bulgaria and North America after Ilinden, the Balkan Wars, WW1 and the 1920s population exchange. These people's descendants all identify as Bulgarian to this day.
European_Owner@reddit
Here is a fun personal story. My great-grandfather identified as a bulgarian, his wife identifed as macedonian, and they split apart due to that, he went on to live as a police officer in Kjustandil, and my great-grandmother with the kids went to Kochani, my grandmother was his first child, with a greek woman, that died after child-birth, so my grandmother is technically greek-bulgarian. She speaks all three languages.
Aggravating_Key2725@reddit
That's fascinating. Did your grandmother grow up in Kochani with her stepmother?
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
Haven't seen all the sources obviously, but from the Greek ones, Slav Macedonians were generally called "Bulgarians" until WWI. Afterwards, Greece and in collaboration with Serbia started using the term "Macedonians" or "the Slavomacedonian people" to counter Bulgarian influence.
Greece had even published in 1925 a school book in Macedonian language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abecedar
Everything changed after the Metaxas dictatorship and the civil war.
Ok , to summarise for Greece before WWI all Slavs of Macedonia region were Bulgarians. Afterwards, they become Macedonian Slavs , and after WWII we pretend they dont exist or they are something something Slavic
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
Us Macedonians referred to ourselves as Macedonians way before Yugoslavia, or even the Balkan wars. Late 1800’s, as for many other nations around us, also included an awakening of the Macedonian identity and we have many famous heroes from that era and early 1900’s that fought the Ottomans for an independent Macedonia, separate of Turks, Greeks, and yes Bulgarians.
Now that’s not to say that our neighbours didn’t have a different feeling about our identity. We were always separated by religion. Whether we were under the Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian church made a difference in how those countries viewed us.
But saying that “Bulgarians” were massacred is just disrespectful to all our ancestors and to our entire country, that definitely does not identify with Bulgaria or Bulgarians at all.
Salt_Fennel8876@reddit
In Bulgaria, there are hundreds of thousands of descendants of settlers from villages that are now in North Greece, and they have felt nothing but Bulgarian. Try to understand the other perspective too—we in Bulgaria consider this history part of Bulgarian history. And perhaps the most correct thing is to regard these events as part of our shared history—both the Bulgarian and the Macedonian people—but it will probably take a lot of water to flow under the bridge until then.
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
I've been asked similar version of this question before by Macedonian friends - how come my grandmother born in 1920 felt Macedonian if we were supposed to be Bulgarian as you say. Obviously nobody knows specifically how somebody's grandmother or how your teacher's identified and why. However we can talk in general about the population and make an educated guess as to why they said they felt Macedonian.
At the turn of the 20th century the Bulgarian identity prevailed amongst Slav Macedonians. The overwhelming majority of the famous slav Macedonian freedom fighters of the period professed a Bulgarian identity, many worked for the Bulgarian Exarchate, many were educated in the Bulgarian Men's school in Thessaloniki, many fought in the Bulgarian army during the Balkan Wars and WW1.
Post WW1 most of Macedonia went to Greece and Serbia, who suppressed Bulgarian identity through mass expulsions and forcible assimilation policies. This resulted in a resistance movement (VMRO) with two distinct branches - on one side the hardline Bulgarian nationalists (typically army officers) such as Todor Alexandrov and Ivan Mihaylov; on the other hand communist leaning activists such as Gyorche Petrov, who prioritised a unified Macedonia as a part of a Balkan Federation and advocated for a separate Macedonian nationality (and a separate Thracian nationality as a matter of fact - the communists were fervently anti-nationalist and created multiple new multi-ethnic nations out of regions e.g. Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan)
As the communist movement grew the push for recognition of a separate Macedonian nationality gained traction. In 1923 at the Sixth Conference of the Balkan Communist Federation the Bulgarian communist leader Vasil Kolarov stated that the "Macedonian population wishes to be recognized as nationality, to obtain its own national rights." In 1925 the communists published the May Manifesto, calling for an independent unified Macedonia and for the first time ever referring to Macedonians, Macedonian population and Macedonian people as separate of the Bulgarian people. In 1934 the Comintern adopted a resolution that recognised the existence of a Macedonian nation and language. By the time WW2 rolled around most Macedonian communists, such as Metodi Andonov - Cento, openly espoused a Macedonian identity, even if most ordinary people still considered themselves Bulgarian.
WW2 was the pivotal point for the demise of Bulgarian identity in Macedonia. The Nazi Germany-allied Bulgarian occupation was particularly harsh in Greek Macedonia, where the Bulgarian state attempted to reverse the previous ethnic cleansing through resettlement and a suppression of Greek identity, and VMRO formed the Ohrana paramilitary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrana to combat Greek communist partizans (but which enacted mass reprisals and atrocities). After the war the label Bulgarian became synonymous with "fascist" in both Greece and Yugoslavia, with both countries widely teaching about the harshness of the occupation and the atrocities carried out by the Bulgarians. Unsurprisingly, the Slav population that still lived in Macedonia adopted the "Macedonian" label post war - both as a way to distance themselves from the Bulgarian atrocities in Greece, and to adopt the new communist ideology in Yugoslavia which officially espoused a Macedonian nationality.
Hopefully that explains the transition to Macedonian identity. Regarding why your teacher's parents and grandparents identified as Macedonian - I'd suggest that post WW2 the suppression and stigma of a Bulgarian identity may have caused memories to adjust over the years.
pitogyros@reddit
Not a Bulgarian but during and post Balkan war most Slavic speakers of Greece identified as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians , local VMRO groups had many volunteers or military personnel from Bulgaria itself , so when Bulgarian language was banned and Bulgarians were discriminated it included every type of Slavic speaker regardless if they identified as Bulgarian or not due to all of them being seen as Bulgarian by the Greek state.
Their identity and allegiance started to switch during WW2 period when Ohrana was formed by VMRO members to collaborate with Bulgarian occupation authorities and Germans , however it didn’t fulfil the expectations they hoped for as only few thousands ( 3000 or 7000 it’s not clear ) joined the ranks , while Bulgarians hoped that almost all of the 80,000~ Slavs would to join
determine96@reddit
Some even before those who were before those who were before Tito claim they were Bulgarians, so ?
TinyAsianMachine@reddit
I have a question, I've met 4 unrelated Bulgarian people who spoke some Greek and told me their grandparents spoke Greek. But I've researched and there is no Greek minority really.
Is this just an odd coincidence or do you think they were Slavic speaking Greeks that migrated to present day Bulgaria?
Justanotherbastard2@reddit
Yes, there used to be a Greek minority on the territory of modern day Bulgaria, mainly inhabiting the southern Black Sea coast. After the second Balkan war most of them were expelled to Greece and Greek identity in Bulgaria was suppressed. There are still some Greek descendants living in Bulgaria but in very small numbers.
Salt_Fennel8876@reddit
Not just along the Black Sea coast. Greek-speakers were also present in Plovdiv and other places. Many Bulgarians also wanted to be considered Greeks until the mid-19th century, as it was seen as more cultured. After the First World War, there was a population exchange—Bulgarians moved to Bulgaria from Greece, and Greeks moved to Greece from Bulgaria.
TinyAsianMachine@reddit
Thanks
Vulpes__Inculta@reddit
You mean the Macedonians
More_Ad_5142@reddit
Even though admitted upon in the Treaty of Lausanne as a mutually agreed upon population exchange, kicking out 400.000 Muslims, mostly Greek Muslims who didn’t speak a word of Turkish (Cretans, Vallahades and many more) to Turkey, thereby creating an almost exclusively Orthodox country. In the meantime accepting Turkish speaking Greek Orthodox refugees in return but calling them “turcosporos” and basically treating them like shit.
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
To be honest, this is a preferred solution than keeping them and "re-educating" them China style.
thatMrGecko@reddit
how about let people stay home and let them be
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
I'm not saying these things should happen but it's understandable after all that Greeks went through.
Having a strong unified country is important, nobody wants a neighbor that they fear will backstab them in the midst of the night. And I'm not suggesting that Greek Muslims are that kind of people.
thatMrGecko@reddit
"ethnic cleansing is understandable" is an interesting stance.
hard disagree.
Hefty-Cheesecake-949@reddit
Turks practically introduced ethnic cleansing to the Balkans and south of Europe.
The lot of Turkish atrocities… you get the point.
XlAcrMcpT@reddit
How is that relevant? Atrocities are bad no matter who commits them. Also, turks didn't introduce ethnic cleansing to the balkans. Nationalism did.
chrstianelson@reddit
The other way around actually.
The Ottoman government initially adopted a conciliatory approach to stem the tide of nationalism. Came out with the idea of Ottomanism, switched to constitutional monarchy and gave minorities like the Armenians autonomy and even their own constitution with their own representatives (which is still in use by the way).
The massacres and expulsions of Muslims in the former Ottoman territories in the Balkans had a significant impact in switching the Ottoman policy from conciliation to that of violence.
thatMrGecko@reddit
your point being?
Hefty-Cheesecake-949@reddit
When God handed out mercy to the world the Turks weren’t present
Chios Massacre (1822): During the Greek War of Independence, Ottoman troops killed or enslaved roughly 70,000 Greeks on the island of Chios.
Batak Massacre (1876): Thousands of Bulgarian civilians were killed by Ottoman irregulars during an uprising, sparking international outrage.
Hamidian Massacres (1894–1896): State-sanctioned pogroms resulting in the deaths of 100,000–300,000 Armenians under Sultan Abdul Hamid II.
Armenian Genocide (1915–1917): The systematic extermination of 1 to 1.5 million Armenians through massacres and forced death marches.
Assyrian & Greek Genocides (1914–1923): Parallel campaigns targeting Christian minorities, leading to hundreds of thousands of deaths among Assyrians and Pontic Greeks.
Great Fire of Smyrna (1922): Following the Turkish capture of the city, the Christian quarters were destroyed by fire, accompanied by mass killings of Greek and Armenian residents.
thatMrGecko@reddit
and how is all that relevant to my comment?
chrstianelson@reddit
What you are talking about is an ethnostate run by ethno-nationalists. A country doesn't need to be ethnically homogeneous to be unified. There are several very successful and long lasting country that's done exactly that.
"A country has to be ethnically the same to be unified" is kind of bullshit espoused by all these Balkan and other nationalist governments.
The result is 200 years of ethnic violence, massacres and genocides.
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
It needed to 100 years ago when most of us had just come out from occupation and were pitted against each other to try and gain as much as we could.
Nowadays its different.
chrstianelson@reddit
It isn't. Ethnic cleansing and genocide is still going on in the Balkans. 30 years isn't distant past.
Impressive_Trick_909@reddit
As someone from Crete, I've thought about this a lot. It is indeed a very difficult issue for any state to navigate, but consider this scenario:
Imagine living in Heraklion during Ottoman rule. The population is roughly split 50/50 between Muslims and Christians. Both groups are culturally Cretan, and neither predominantly speaks Turkish. However, the ruling class is Ottoman. Whenever severe economic crises hit, the Christians—being further removed from the government—would revolt. Meanwhile, the Cretan Muslims, who generally had a better relationship with the state, would side with the authorities (the Pashas, soldiers, etc.) and turn the rebels in. Honestly, you can understand both perspectives. To the Muslims, they were just reporting lawbreakers to the authorities. But to the Christians, their own brothers were betraying them instead of joining their fight for fairer treatment and basic rights. This dynamic didn't just happen once; it repeated every 20 to 30 years. After generations of this cycle, deep-seated mutual suspicion was completely baked into the culture. With that kind of history, how do you successfully force both halves to coexist in a newly formed state, regardless of whether that state ends up under Christian or Turkish rule?
thatMrGecko@reddit
I could change a couple of details in your comment and make a very similar case for the forced migration of armenians away from anatolia as well. you could say it would be even more convincing than yours, possibly, since the issue there was armed gangs attacking civilians rather than mere snitching.
I'm not convinced by either argument. it's ethnic cleansing, pure and simple, and not defensible in any way, shape, or form.
Impressive_Trick_909@reddit
I actually agree that forced displacement is a tragedy, But comparing it to the Armenian situation ignores the context of the 1923 population exchange. This was a mutual, League of Nations-backed agreement to build stable states from the ashes of an empire
Establishing a functioning society with two populations trapped in a generational cycle of violence was simply unfeasible. It was a harsh, brutal solution, but it was designed to prevent perpetual civil war. The Greeks of Smyrna and Anatolia suffered the exact same traumatic uprooting to make this "stability" happen.
When I say it was the lesser of two evils, I mean that literally. For context, just 20 years later (1946), Greece suffered a devastating political civil war. Imagine if the deep ethno-religious divisions from the Ottoman era had still been in place—the bloodshed and civilian death toll would have been exponentially worse. By today's standards, the population exchange was a massive tragedy. But looking back pragmatically, displacing people rather than leaving them in a powder keg saved lives in the long run.
P.S. Looking to the present and future, as our countries stabilize, I really believe we need to address the cultural hole that this displacement left behind. For example, here in Crete, as reprisals, locals burned down and destroyed most of the Ottoman palaces, mosques, and homes of the Pashas—which were beautiful, historic pieces of architecture. I think, as two states, Greece and Turkey eventually need to work together to acknowledge, preserve, and heal this shared history.
chrstianelson@reddit
A more convincing argument than this but following the same lines is used to explain the Armenian Genocide and it becomes "genocide justification" but when Greeks say it, it's a "reasonable, understandable idea".
DuePositive8957@reddit
Same thing happened in Türkiye were many Karaman christian who spoke turkish but wrote in greek were seen as just greek even tho they were turkish and got forced to migrate. Also they have very cool christian graves which are wroten in greek but if you know the letters its full turkish
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
There was a large part of Albanians amidst those labelled as Greek Muslims. And yes, "exchanging" 1 million people like they were toys, is indeed huge.
Ujemegaz@reddit
The first wave of Albanians went out of fead, then the second wave declared themselves as Turks because they heard that swaths of lands in Turkey were bigger. Few examples consist of orthodox Albanians/Arvanites even.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
They didn't "go out of fear", they were expelled. If you don't know how expulsion happened historically, read about it and don't spread bs.
You (esp. South Albanians) believe a lot of anti-Albanian propaganda. I always wonder how... Serb/Greek church leadeds spreading bs? I don't know..
Ujemegaz@reddit
Lea Ypi said so in an interview.
I don't go to church.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
Since Lea said so...
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
I think Indy Neidell has told this on his Youtube Channel, that the Population Exchange of 1923 was the first mutually accepted and designed ethnic cleansing in history, and served as the basis for other such agreements in the future, especially after WW II.
CaptainRice6@reddit
Before that, there was a more limited population exchange between Bulgaria and Greece. 200 thousand people were effected. Which was the blueprint for the later Turkish Greek exchange.
KataraMan@reddit
The leftists/communists really got screwed after WW2, especially those that helped drive Nazis out of the country.
Free-Celebration4562@reddit
This! And the church (as an organization, not individual priests) who was mostly helping the Nazis was never held accountable.
KataraMan@reddit
There's a newspaper at that time where it says that the Church wishes the best on the Fuhrer.
The goat-priests® always were with the side of the conquerors, so that they would make even more money and have more power over the people
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
I believe that was a statement from the monks of Mt. Athos, praying for the health of the Führer
ca95f@reddit
To them, Stalin and his anti Christ state were the enemies. The banning of religion in (what was a mostly Greek Orthodox) USSR was far worse to the church than the Holocaust (that was targeted against non christians anyway). Church is a business and its first objective is to keep after itself and its health and wealth. They don't really care about injustice or national matters. They only care about becoming bigger and richer and they will follow anyone who can guarantee them this, no matter what they do or who they hurt. Taking a look at who they turn to Saints and who they call "Great" (Theodosius anyone?) verifies this at a single glance...
CipherTheDude@reddit
Well they really didnt do themselves any favors in the end. In the long run though it was the better outcome for us.
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
Similar to that , during the recent past years Greek historians have uncovered new sources indicating the massive amount of Greek former German collaborators , literal fascists and Nazis that have been incorporated to the post-WWII state, simply because they were anti-communist/anti-left, knew how to fight and likes US and NATO
volcano156@reddit
1919-1922 war. In 1919, while the turkish army had been demilitarized, they occupied western anatolia and tried to wipe out the entire population there, people fled to central anatolia. They burned entire villages and city centers, destroyed around \~150,000 buildings. And in the end, their accusing us of genocide is one of the most ridiculous things you could ever see
vodkasucker@reddit
Tripolitsa massacres during the greek revolution
Oppression of the thracian turks, greece doesn't even accept that they are turks lmao.
The way they opressed the leftists post ww2
Crimes against the macedonians.
Their literal "murderous" pushbacks of migrants in the aegean ( I completely understand not wanting and deporting illegals, abuse, torture, murder and rape is not ok though. I have personally met many illegal immigrants who were abused to unbelievable levels by the greek police and military.
pitogyros@reddit
“ Greece doesn’t accept they are Turks “
It was literally Turkey who insisted on Lausanne treaty ( after they won the war ) that minorities should be recognised on religious base to include all ethnic groups , therefore “ Muslim minority of Greece “ is the name dictated by the treaty as Turkey wanted.
Finally , Turks aren’t the only members of that minority , they are the second largest group , first being Pomaks at over 50% , followed by Turks and finally Romani people who make up a very tiny minority.
vodkasucker@reddit
Thats a cheap political trick though from your end and I don't think you've done it intentionally, we shouldn't keep going back to lausanne to justify opression of peoples, it was 100 years ago, times have changed. Let me say this too, Turkey isn't doing great on these things as well, so I'm not purely attacking greece or you, I don't want to argue with you, I think we can get along well. You said pomaks followed by Turks, there are many greek officials and greeks who don't even accept the existence of those "turks". Both of our countries and peoples lack maturity on these topics. I'm sure you understand me.
pitogyros@reddit
Well , let me put in other way. The treaty itself was horrible for Greece because we lost the war obviously , the only thing Greece managed to “ save “ on that treaty was the protection of Greek minority or Rum minority if you prefer , of Istanbul and the 2 Turkish islands.
In return Greece would also protect the Muslim minority of Thrace , if Istanbul pogroms hadn’t happened and the Istanbul Greeks were not ethnic cleansed , I’m sure we could work out a mutual solution understanding.
However they did happen and the Greek minority doesn’t exist anymore , so why Greece would agree to change any of the agreed terms on a treaty that was not in our favor to begin with.
To put it in another way it’s like rewarding Turkey for the ethnic cleansing of Istanbul.
And yes i agree with you on your final part of message , that those Greek officials fully denying the existence of Turks in Thrace are out of this world , yes turks obviously exist within the Muslim minority and yes they are the 2nd largest group of that minority after Pomaks but I don’t see why Greece would want to renegotiate a treaty about a war we lost 100 years ago
kendrickispop@reddit
Great points
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
Hello Bulgarian Greek here, if someone comes into your house uninvited and you ask them to leave, yet they return forcefully, what exactly are you supposed to do? Thank you.
vodkasucker@reddit
Legal matters are complicated issues, the migration crisis was "created" by multiple political entities. As I said, I understand not wanting refugees, but there are valid reasons those illegal refugees are choose that path. They are not coming to your house uninvited, they are doing that for their survival. Definitions of that survival changes of course, but to them its survival.
As I said, I do believe this migration crisis harmed europe overall and has been extremely unfair to countries like greece, italy and spain. I've worked in this field. I was slightly involved with Frontex. "abuse, torture, murder and rape" are the practices that I consider unacceptable. I can't get along with muslims, we often have different values, but most of the ones that I met through my professional career were people who escaped from war, terrorism, corruption or terrible economic situation caused by these things. Now lets like it or not, our governments, both the EU and Turkey. Especially the US and Israel are causing these issues.
Those illegal immigrants have the right to a decent life as much as we do, so they try their best, the EU offers them the chance to reach it in their eyes. They don't even want to stay in the mediterranean countries, they want to make it to germany, belgium etc. So no, in your example they are not coming to your house uninvited, nor they are criminals wanting to harm you. They are just desperate people that doesn't know any better than going through an exodus to reach a stable country where they can have a respectable life. So you have a political system that keeps their homes uninhabitable, you have the same political system that fills their pockets if they can make it to those certain countries, but some of the stops on that path commits horrible crimes. This is a complicated issue my dude. When I was younger I was more extremist with my anti-illegal-immigrants views but over time my stance towards them changed. I still think that governments must be more strict about this but those people are human beings under terrible conditions. We say that only men arrives in our countries, its quite simple way, road is terribly dangerous, once they get their papers they try to bring their wives and children to safety as well because the journey that they are on is not safe for the women and the children. On top of that, they often do minimum wage jobs and send a serious chunk of their money to their countries to sustain their families. So those "invaders" are living lives under terrible conditions, with serious poverty and heavy responsibilities. They are just trying their shot to improve their situation in countries that exploited their countries to the point that they are in today, in countries that they are hated upon. They've also never received modern education and they grew up in oppressive cultures so they can't adapt to the western life style. They are just stuck in limbo.
So, abusing those people is an unacceptable crime yes. We don't have to want them in our countries or like them as people, but given the situation, come on. Killing them? Torturing them? Raping them? How could any of this be considered ok?
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
If they don't want to stay why is Athens and every Eegean Island so full of them?
Sorry but again what you say is wrong "We" the little countries in the Balkans have no responsibility whatsoever about what Germany, France and the other EU heads are deciding to do or support in the Middle East.
vodkasucker@reddit
"If they don't want to stay why is Athens and every Aegean Island so full of them?"
Its because of the Dublin protocol, the EU tries to trap refugees in your countries. That needs to be updated for sure. You "the little countries" are part of the EU, so take the responsibility, read up the dublin protocol. It is not what you think, or feel. Your governments are willingly in the EU. The EU has not taken favorable actions towards your governments and tried to put money in your governments pockets to make you keep the refugees. There is a political clash.
Again, this is not about you not wanting those people. There is a great political issue.
I am not saying they must be welcomed in Greece or in the Balkans, that is unsustainable, problem is bigger than the individuals though. If you have an issue with the unsustainable amount of refugees, take action towards the EU, not the poor individuals, who are too ignorant to know anything at all honestly. That is why what I'm saying stands.
"Killing them? Torturing them? Raping them? How could any of this be considered ok?"
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
Bro I just checked your profile, 3 hours ago you said Turkey should jail 2 Greeks for life because they placed the Greek flag on Agia Sofia.
Talking about human rights and shit, you're pushing refugees in this direction then whine that people don't want them.
"But the politicians, but the agreenments" You've had your fair share of agreenments with the EU that you didn't keep and your fair share of people you've sent into the sea, complicit of their illegal travel.
vodkasucker@reddit
You are not very bright are you? If you are going to an x country, as a tourist and holding a fascist flag"be orthodox or die" that is a serious hate crime, implications are clear lol.
"Talking about human rights and shit, you're pushing refugees in this direction then whine that people don't want them." After my explanations, if thats what you get, don't waste my time, you are not smart enough to have discussions.
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
"Jail them for life" for a flag?
vodkasucker@reddit
No, for the hate speech.
Honestly, if one is brave enough to go to an x country, to insult and threaten that country, here example being "Be Orthodox or die" they should be brave enough to pay a hefty price. Whats the point of pulling that out in Hagia Sophia, in Turkey? We both know their message. If someone comes to me, to my face "do x or die", if I can, I will end them. I believe actions have consequences. He did something brave, bravery is nothing without the risk.
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
You're just a hypocrite man, there's nothing to discuss.
vodkasucker@reddit
Nah you are quite incapable of understanding these things, migration crisis is not a greece issue, greece is just a pawn in a massive political system. Doesn't justify greeks murdering, raping, torturing hopeless people wanting to escape to germany etc. It is pointless to discuss it with you I know.
People coming to my country and committing serious hate speech, saying "be orthodox and die" sure, I don't want them to see the daylight again, if thats hypocrisy, I think it might be too late for you buddy. Go away.
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
Lol, if your heart is so kind and if Greeks are so bad, don't push them on boats next time, buy them a plane ticket instead and fly them to Germany.
Your country considers these people undesirables, but you speak about treatment here. What about their treatment in Turkey? https://www.politico.eu/article/the-eu-is-helping-turkey-forcibly-deport-migrants-to-syria-and-afghanistan/
https://euromedrights.org/publication/how-eu-funds-in-turkiye-fuel-human-rights-violations-forced-deportations/
Plenty of them here have shown us what they bring and if you want to speak about law, they are breaking the law by entering illegally so we should obviously "Jail them for life for this offense!"
It is Hypocrisy.
Capable_Studio_6631@reddit
baxulax@reddit
Lmao this guy eats up anything
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
The mere existence of my people has subjected us to so many atrocities at the bloody hands of the Greek government. I don’t think I need to say anything further.
GrayWolf9560@reddit
It's funny seeing Greeks and Serbs getting wet about being Orthodox brothers, but in the meantime treating you guys(also Orthodox) as shit. I wonder what would have happened if Serbia shared borders with Greece.
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
I need understood that relationship either tbh. Greeks hated and still hate anything remotely Slavic related, yet they love Serbs. Go figure
S-onceto@reddit
Metaxas labelling all ethnic Macedonians as communists after the civil war, driving them out, forcing them to change their names, forbidding the Macedonian langauge, changing the names of rivers, mountains, towns, etc..
Familiar_Anywhere815@reddit
You're forgetting one more key detail, which is that for many of them, their properties (houses, farms, etc.) are either expropriated or it's a bureaucratic nightmare for them to return to Greece if they wanted to.
For those curious, the abovementioned situation created a pretty big refugee crisis, with most refugees settling in what is today North Macedonia, or in other countries in the eastern bloc. I have a friend who even has relatives that settled in Tashkent, Uzbekistan, after being displaced by the ethnic cleansing.
S-onceto@reddit
Yes, I think they started changing names in the 1920s.
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
The same happened with Albanians. Except, they were labelled as fascist, even though the war against them started 30 years before the existence of fascism.
To this day, Greece continues to be very undemocratic for a European country. Zero minority rights.
TheAimIs@reddit
Greece is the only country in EU that accepts muslim law for muslims of Thrace. Also, muslim minority is a minority that continually grows in population. Muslim children can go free to the greek universities with an extra percentage of population. Greek students have to study very hard to enter university like Medicine. That cannot be said about the greek population of Constantinople, a very rich and thriving population until pogroms of 1950s. From 200.000 Greeks only 5.000 remained. All of them fled (or killed).
As for as the Chams Albanians in Thesprotia Epirus (around 50.000), it was a minority that created the keshilla and Balli Kombetar Cam, organisations that did not fight Nazis but cooperated with them in order to occupy Epirus. These paramilitary organisations commited war crimes like the massacre of paramythia in 1943 or operation Augustus that killed thousands of Greeks and have been attested at Nuremberg trials. 3.000 people were condemned for war crimes but in absentia as they had fled in Albania. Some were killed in battle. Their families in fear of revenge fled with them. So no genocide at all. And it is not an opinion. It is a fact!!
After the defeat of Nazis, greek partisans unfortunately commited atrocities to those that had not fled, but they committed attrocities to everyone that cooperated with Nazis, no matter if they were greeks or Albanians. Search for the Meligala massacre in Peloponnese that 1.000 Greek Nazi cooperators (mainly villagers) were killed and thrown at a well on only one day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanian_collaboration_with_the_Axis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Meligalas
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
I am talking about today, 2026. While, you are talking about what happened to Greeks in Istanbul in 1950.
Albanians were massacred by Greeks starting from the Balkan wars. So, when the time came they became one with the only force that protected them from the Balkan neigbors which were slaughtering them, which was the Italians and Germans.
Yes, they collaborated with them against Greeks and Slavs, because Greeks and Slavs had been slaughtering them for 30 years continuously. They were no nazis, and no fascists. They cared about their own lives and freedom, not about nazi or fascist ideology.
They didn't wanna occupy Epirus, because they already had Epirus. It was populated by Albanians. It was Greece who occupied their lands. They wanted to free them from Greek occupation. That is the fact! Not your distorted one.
Nice, now google massacres of Greeks against Albanians, and you'll see they began way earlier than WW2.
CalydonianBoar@reddit (OP)
It is inaccurate (Metaxas died in 1941) and more complicated but it is still bad.
The Communist Party of Greece promised the Slav Macedonians autonomy so that they would join the fight on its side during the Greek Civil War. Most of them joined the communists for that reason (not all of them though) and the majority has fled from Greece along the other greek communists to the Socialist Block.
Fast forward to 1974 and 1981, with the fall of the far-right Junta of the Colonels and the first social democratic government of Andreas Papandreou, respectively. The communist refuges start to return to Greece, and the Greek state gives to them and their descendants Greeks passports and identity cards. However, Greece refuses to give the same treatment to the Slav Macedonian communist refugees from the Civil War or makes it bureaucratically super hard, under the accusation that they had tried to break Greece apart. Actually that was the same accusation against all Greek communists but now it only remains for the Greek Slav Macedonians.
It is bad, I wont deny it.
8NkB8@reddit
Metaxas died well before the Greek Civil War (in 1941) but assimilation policies were in place since at least the 1920s.
KojaKuqit@reddit
Weaponizing Orthodoxy to assimilate the Arvaniti, Sulioti, Malakasioi, and other ethnically Albanian tribes.
TurkOmbre@reddit
The genocide of Anatolians and islanders (Cretans) to the last: the Greeks have wiped out more than 10 ethnic groups throughout their history
sangueblu03@reddit
Way more than 10 of we go back to Alexander and the Hellenisation of Thrace, Anatolia, Black Sea coast, Levant, central asia, etc. Also consider eastern Roman empire as well.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Greece should confront its own history instead of blaming others: Turkey, Germany, Albania, etc.
Free-Celebration4562@reddit
One doesn't negate the other. I agree to the first, but the greeks as a nation have suffered a lot as well.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Not as much as the Turks. Greece lost no Greek-majority territory, while the Turks lost several provinces with Turkish majorities: Western Thrace and Macedonia. Greece has been steadily expanding its territory since 1821. In 1974, for the first time, the Turks prevented further expansion, and the Greeks once again began blaming the Turks.
CipherTheDude@reddit
Youre a clear example that we didnt do enough
whatevedoe@reddit
Holy biased.
Free-Celebration4562@reddit
This is a wildly biased opinion. The territories you mentioned were occupied Greek territories with Greek history and primarily Greek population for thousands of years. They had no business being Turkish. Greece lost a lot in both territories that were culturally Greek again for thousands of years and a lot of people suffered, the genocide of the Pontians, the burning of Smyrna/Izmir, etc.
sangueblu03@reddit
Both are absolutely true and should be recognised by all sides to move forward.
Did Greece commit war crimes in Anatolia during the march to Ankara? Yes.
Did Turkey also perform wholesale genocide on a million Greeks? Also yes.
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Greeks of Pontus still exist, and the Greeks of other regions would have continued to exist as well if Greece had not invaded Turkey.
Greece itself is partly responsible for the end of Hellenism in Anatolia.
So Greece must even face the challenge of being held accountable for its own people.
mrgleman@reddit
When Greeks genocide Anatolian and Cretans lol Do you mean the Anatolians being hellenised during Roman Empire ?
Anatolian Greeks are almost 100% Anatolian with nearly 0 mainland Greek / Balkan ancestry.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Basically, when it follows you, you talk about genocide, and when it follows you otherwise, you talk about cultural change, lol. For example, the Pontic genocide, which Greece claims, even though the majority of the former Pontic people are now Turkish, and the rest have migrated to Greece. Meanwhile, the Turks haven't wiped out any ethnic groups in their 1000 years of existence in the Middle East; on the contrary, several ethnic groups have emerged under Turkish rule: Pomaks, Bosniaks, Torbesh
FunIllustrious3058@reddit
Well I’m half Cretan half Pontic, the Cretan side we’re living peaceful with Turks I don’t know sth bad that happened(from my family atleast), the Pontic side ya they left to Russia by feet to escape.. my friends relative was covered in a boat full of dead bodies pretending to be dead to escape to Greece. Some of them left to Russia others on Greece when this happened.
mrgleman@reddit
Wait a minute you actually compare the Anatolians being hellenised during Roman empire at 200 BC with massacres of Pontus at 1920 A.D ?
Greeks weren’t even in charge or rulers in Anatolia during the early Roman conquests.
By that definition Turks then fully genocided all the remaining Anatolians + Greeks since most Turks are basically Turkified Greeks and the Greeks before they became Turkified they were hellenised Anatolians
Also Pontic Greeks ( aka Anatolians ) were first massacred and then the leftovers went to Greece , the majority didn’t “ became Turkish “
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Pontic language still exists in Turkey. What about the local languages of the islands: Cyprus, Crete, or the Thracian languages, etc.? The Turks did not make any ethnic groups disappear.
mrgleman@reddit
Cretans ? 200 BC wasn’t enough for you and now you went to 1000 BC ?
Yes Mycenaean Greeks invaded Crete 3000 years ago 😂
By that definition also then France genocided the Greeks of south France , Italy genocided the Greeks of magna gracia , Ukraine the Greeks of Crimea , Russia the Greeks of south and goes on … obviously those I mentioned above were not genocides as the local Greeks simply assimilated themselves over the time with the local groups.
Anyway I find it funny you compare the massacres of 2 generations ago with Mycenaean Greeks 3000 years ago
TurkOmbre@reddit
France didn't commit any genocide at all; the Greeks still exist, and they ended Greek colonization of their coast. On the other hand, France committed unspeakable atrocities in Africa and America, but that's another matter. We're talking about two million Algerian deaths during the colonial period.
What I find amusing is that you always try to manipulate the context and dates to suit your own narrative, in order to portray others as guilty and barbaric.
mrgleman@reddit
Okay let’s play your game
Mycenaean Greeks invaded Crete 3000 years ago yes , their origin is from aegian islands so it’s the aegian islanders fault the Crete got invaded 3000 years ago , but aegian populations originate from Anatolia , so Anatolians are the responsible that Mycenaean invaded Crete , created the Greek civilisation and 1300 years after the descendants of these Anatolians , assimilated Anatolians into being Greek.
Totally equal to the genocides of 1920 right ?
Should we go back couple thousand more years and talk about how Homo sapiens genocided the indigenous human species of Europe ?
TurkOmbre@reddit
So why do some Greeks and Armenians still not accept, or at least blame us for, the Turkish conquest of Anatolia 1000 years ago? Especially since, even after 1000 years, the Greeks and Armenians haven't completely disappeared, and their cultures still exist. Why did this criticism of the Turks for conquest arise 1000-500 years ago, but not of the Greeks?
mrgleman@reddit
Nobody right on his brain blames modern Turks for what happened in 1071 lol History is history , you can’t take people seriously when they say “ your ancestors killed mine 1000 years ago !!!!! “ Those are the same people who are uneducated and call Turks “ Mongolians “ even though vast majority of Turks is native Anatolian who got Turkified. Anatolian Greeks , Turks , Armenians are all natives to those lands they just happen to have different cultures and languages due to the previous centuries conquests and wars
Our topic was 1920 genocide of Anatolian Greeks or the Armenian genocide not the conquest of Anatolia in 1071.
TurkOmbre@reddit
Go read the Armenian and Greek subreddits and you'll see the extent of the healthy spirit. You're wasting your time with me if you're truly an honest guy.
mrgleman@reddit
People filled with anger behind a screen for what happened 1000 years ago , can’t be taken seriously in my opinion. Those are a tiny minority online.
Greece and Anatolia got invaded so much that if we followed their logic , Anatolian greeks and Turks should hate everyone from Spain to Mongolia and from France to Arabia
TurkOmbre@reddit
'People are filled with anger.' No, not just people, Armenians and Greeks are filled with anger especially; if the anger of the Turks is 1, the anger of the Greeks is 30, and that of the Armenians is 100.
mrgleman@reddit
I beg to disagree on that one , I guess it depends on each nations point of view , just a tiny example I can recall , after the Greece - Turkey basketball game , even a player from Turkish side post with reference to massacre of Greeks in sea got many tens of thousands of likes , after literally a sport game … my point is not to say “ you hate us more “ because I understand your Point of view is different, but hate is mutual from both sides , it’s not exclusive from Greeks to Turks or from Turks to Greeks
TurkOmbre@reddit
In my opinion, you must be neither Turkish nor Greek, because you don't know much. The massacre you're talking about is the death of the Greek occupier (soldier) who terrorized the Turks. It's the work of the Turkish liberation, and it's a celebration. Even the Greeks don't blame us on this, lol. You're way off base.
mrgleman@reddit
I am fully Anatolian Greek ( half from Asia Minor half from Black Sea ) who has many massacred family members from ages of 1 until 60 years old , I doubt the babies , sister of my great grand mother were soldiers.
Also the soldiers were not massacred in Izmir , Greek army had left the city before Turkish forces enter , the only people who stay behind to be massacred were civilians.
As that was originally the plan , Greek side knew the massacre gonna happen , they didn’t evacuate the area because Izmir Greeks were pro-Venizelos and taking them to mainland Greece would shift the political powers.
As high commander( Greek ) letter wrote “ leave them here to be massacred by Kemal , because if they come to Athens they ll make a mess “
0a_boy0@reddit
Turkish genocide from 1821-1922 in Balkans. Millions of Turks got killed. On 1919-1922 Turkish babys were burned, women got raped in their villages by greek soldiers. Our grandparents still talk about these massacres.
Disastrous-Mix-5859@reddit
Disguise themselves as a swan to rape a queen - that's just really badly done
krisvelde@reddit
Prohibition of serbian/bulgarian language
chrstianelson@reddit
Suddenly, u/SOHONEYSAME is nowhere to be seen.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
people on this thread (especially Greeks) that r against the 1925 population exchange r crazy.
(Greece would be in a similar position to Cyprus, today, if it wasn't for it).
& it's by no means a "Greece crime" it is a (mutually) agreed thing.
EbbPlane1749@reddit
Expulsion of Cham Albanians
TheAimIs@reddit
As for as the Chams Albanians in Thesprotia Epirus (around 50.000), it was a minority that created the keshilla and Balli Kombetar Cam, organisations that did not fight Nazis but cooperated with them in order to occupy Epirus. These paramilitary organisations commited war crimes like the massacre of paramythia in 1943 or operation Augustus that killed thousands of Greeks and have been attested at Nuremberg trials. 3.000 people were condemned for war crimes but in absentia as they had fled in Albania. Some were killed in battle. Their families in fear of revenge fled with them. So no genocide at all. And it is not an opinion. It is a fact!!
After the defeat of Nazis, greek partisans unfortunately commited atrocities to those that had not fled, but they committed attrocities to everyone that cooperated with Nazis, no matter if they were greeks or Albanians. Search for the Meligala massacre in Peloponnese that 1.000 Greek Nazi cooperators (mainly villagers) were killed and thrown at a well on only one day.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanian_collaboration_with_the_Axis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramythia_executions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Meligalas
Silent-Prior8456@reddit
The genocide of Chameria.
AntiKouk@reddit
*Ethnic cleansing
Both horrible acts obviously but let's not distort facts
Zealousideal_Cry_460@reddit
Lets be real even if the atrocities are counted one by one theres noone out there or in here thats actively blasting them for it like they blast Turks for literally any invonvenience lmao
İ learn about whole new atrocities here than İ've ever heard from humanists (like tf is up with the Chamarian genocide?)
Fit-Medicine1583@reddit
kesinlikle batılı ikiyüzlülüğü
DuePositive8957@reddit
Bloody Noel in Cyprus. Its also one of the reason why NTRC has Erenköy as an enclave
Ujemegaz@reddit
Genocide of Panarit in 1914. Hundreds were locked in the local church and houses and then set ablaze. Women children and no ine was spared.
-MrAnderson@reddit
Could you share a source? English search doesn't bring much.
Ujemegaz@reddit
https://www.balkanweb.com/en/refleksionet-e-publicistit-kur-venizellos-pranon-boterisht-se-ushtria-e-tij-ka-vrare-ne-tokat-tona-15-000-shqiptare/#gsc.tab=0
Vulpes__Inculta@reddit
The Exodus of Slav Macedonians from Greece[13] (Macedonian: Егзодус на Македонци од Грција, Egzodus na Makedonci od Grcija) refers to the thousands of Slav Macedonians who were evacuated, fled or expelled during the Greek Civil War in the years 1945 to 1949, many of whom fled to avoid persecution.
TurkOmbre@reddit
The Greeks of Pontus still exist, and the Greeks of other regions would have continued to exist as well if Greece had not invaded Turkey.
Greece itself is partly responsible for the end of Hellenism in Anatolia.
So Greece must even face the challenge of being held accountable for its own people.
Sheb1995@reddit
Probably the scorched earth tactics and massacres committed during the Greco-Turkish War from 1919-1922.
vasjpan002@reddit
Dec 1919 USN ADM Bristol condemned Venizelos for Smyrna attrocities
Separate-Date-6518@reddit
Tripolitsa Massacre, burning of Bulgarian/Slavomacedonian villages in Macedonia, atrocities in Anatolia against Turkish villages during the Asia Minor Campaign, atrocities against the Chams during WW2.
BDP-SCP@reddit
I would say the population exchange with Turkey...