Why did Bulgaria fell of so much?
Posted by sun__disk@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 124 comments
Posted by sun__disk@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 124 comments
RestepcaMahAutoritha@reddit
Wasn't the Bulgarian empire at it's peak known as the Bulgarian /Vlach empire?
It would explain a lot considering most of Romania -Vlach, and northern Greece province of Thessaly was known as Great Wallachia - also Vlach.
0neManSquad@reddit
It was never labeled that way (except perhaps by some recent Romanian historians). In the same way, you could call the Eastern Roman Empire the "Eastern Romano-Armenian Empire" just because it included Armenian populations and even emperors with proven Armenian ancestry.
This_Lion5856@reddit
We used to be the same people back then, the first Bulgarian Empire was formed in what is modern day Romania and Southern Ukraine
Following the Ottoman invasions we kind of diverged and formed what was Wallachia back then and then Romania following
Its not a coincidence that a lot of our revolutionaries pre-liberation went to Wallachia to form legions and plans for the liberation
sun__disk@reddit (OP)
How the same people tho? Weren't Romanians remnants of the romanized subjects of the roman empire? and the bulgarians were the slavic people
dwartbg9@reddit
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
How can Albania be so much more similar than Kosovo? I call bs on the sample collection.
MartinBP@reddit
Bulgarians were/are the same people. The Slavs who settled in Bulgaria also settled in Romania, the only difference is that for a multitude of highly debated reasons the Slavic language eventually dominated in Bulgaria while in Romania the Slavs were assimilated by the locals. We descend from the same populations.
This_Lion5856@reddit
It was all a mix, the first Bulgarian Empire was formed where is now Romania, mix between Bulgars, Slavs and the local inhabitants such as Thracians and Dacians
MartinBP@reddit
That's the second Tsardom you're thinking of under the Asenevtsi dynasty. The Vlach element was stronger in the beginning but Bulgaria had the imperial heritage through the first Tsardom so the royal family stuck with the Bulgarian identity. That way they could claim the lands and titles of the Bulgarian crown.
Vitanist112@reddit
Royal_Assosiation_720 told us to go back
WSportsBet@reddit
Because Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece have saved most of Europe by stopping the Ottoman Invasion. That's why!
Embarrassed_Egg9542@reddit
She picked the wrong allies
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Balkan war 2.
(& subsequently, refusing to "accept" it - and forming alliances w/ terrible countries - in WW1, for instance, instead of working w/ Serbia & Greece - some would say "natural" allies).
Distinct_Travel6386@reddit
Yeah they lost Edirne because of their greediness.
Salt_Fennel8876@reddit
We lost it because the capital Sofia and the bulgarian army were full of Macedonians and they insisted on conquering Macedonia and expelling the Serbs from there. What they say today has nothing to do with what they said 120 years ago. Because of the Macedonian chukars, we lost all of Thrace. But that's history.:-) Минало-бешало.
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
Bruh the picture is 1000+ years before the Balkan wars
Also Serbia has never in our history been a natural allies of ours, they were literally the first country to declare war on Bulgaria straight after our liberation.
As for Greeks I really do agree that we should have been allies much, much earlier and both of our countries would be much better off today if we didnt fight all those wars throuought the ages
arhisekta92@reddit
We are so assholes to you, you have my sympathies poor bro *pats on the back*
Bulgaria only good to Serbia but Serbia use that like an asshole and invade Bulgaria 5 times
18w4531g00@reddit
Its not us that are poor.
arhisekta92@reddit
yes we are
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
But you were. You attacked us out of nowhere after Ottoman liberation. Even without war declaration. Then in BW1 you scammed us out of Macedonia. What else is there to say, not really brotherly moves.
arhisekta92@reddit
Scummed can hardly be a word, since we were scummed from territory we would take, and you didn't fight as agreed in Macedonia; moreover, our troops came to your aid and broke the siege of Adrianople for you. Real brotherly thanks, the whole second balkan war thing.
Austria pushed us into that war in late 19th century and the monarch who did that was punished severely. It was a 10 day border skirmish though, so you are blowing that out of proportion to further victimize yourself for the Balkan and World Wars, where you were both the aggressor, and committed vast war crimes against Serbs. When did Serbs enter Sofia or Plovdiv and slaughtered it's population? Stop the funny. My grandfather escaped from Svilajnac concentration camp.
The worst thing is most of us don't really care, there's not much in the way of our friendship as two nations. But so many Bulgarians have this built up hatred and victimization against Serbia, it's ridiculous
JarJarBingChilling@reddit
Yeah the events in the 20th century caused events a thousand years prior… totally.
_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit
In my opinion a big part of it was because there was a series of cataclysmic events in the late IX century and then throughout the X and early XI centuries.
First, during the conversion to Christianity there was a rebellion that was brutally put down - 49 noble families were completely kills off by Khan Boris.
Then his son Tsar Simeon lead a series of largely successful but very costly wars with the Romans.
Then his grandson Tsar Peter faced a major invasion by Kievan Rus which struck the heart of the areas populated by Bulgarians and resulted in around 300 noble families completely killed off.
So overall in about a century Bulgaria lost a bulk of its noble elite and then at the turn of the XI century emperor Basil II decided to finish it off and spared no efffort in doing so.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
People underestimate the role of nobles in medieval time. They were the main driving factor of a regime. Also, Basil II didn’t really tried to finish Bulgaria off, he absorbed it more likely. There was a lot of killing involved, war being what it is, but Basil would have agreed in a favourable (for the Romans) peace treaty and would have left the Bulgarians as vassals to the west. Of course no Bulgarian leader would agree upon this. But the take over was not one of suppression, they weren’t romanised nor did the Romans tried that.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
People forget how fragile medieval states were. One defeat could wipe out the existence of a realm. Bulgaria was decentralised and usually rallied behind a strong man. If the strong man was gone, the willingness of the elite to keep fighting united unseat of each other was gone as well. And Bulgarian “nationality” did survive despite all the conquests.
The fact the Vasileia ton Rhomaion survived for 1000 years with all the troubles it befell them was kinda of an anomaly to the norm.
LargeFriend5861@reddit
A lot of that tbf, was because Constantinople was nigh-unconquerable.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
Oh for sure, this gave the regime a sense of security. But also the institutions and centralised government that went with that made it functional in a way unprecedented in the rest of Europe at the time. The Latina also controlled Konstantinoupolis, but failed to capitalise on this acquisition.
LargeFriend5861@reddit
The Latins also destroyed it in their attempt to get it. They were also very unstable because their first emperor, alongside many of his esteemed knights and nobles died in the first year of the Empire being a thing. It was kinda just inevitable for it to fall.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
Not to mention that both Romans and Latins are underestimated Bulgaria, and learned the hard way the error in that. But Bulgaria was never the existential threat for Konstantinoupolis. A major thorn for sure and a formidable enemy, but it lacked the state power to take over.
LargeFriend5861@reddit
Depends on the time period, actually. Under Simeon The Great, there were negotiations to get the Fatimid navy to help out, which could've very well worked out in the end. That was one way to threaten Constantinople. Under Ivan Asen II, Bulgaria had a considerable navy from what we know, and even took over Thessaloniki. Ivan Asen II had a real chance to take over Constantinople, but he didn't prioritize it as much and when other issues broke out in his realm, he seemingly abandoned it.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
Kinda my point, alone they could not march against Konstantinoupolis. They could shatter any Roman army in the mountains, I do not underestimate Bulgaria. But their capabilities to take the City were limited.
Ivan Assen II did not conquer Thessaloniki, he vassalized the city after the Battle of Klokonitsa. Together with Ioannes III Doukas Vatatzes they might have been able to take the City. Again the key is the navy to blockade the sea walls.
LargeFriend5861@reddit
Their battles weren't only in mountains, also. A lot of the time they were in open fields, and most often wins for the Bulgarians. Bulgaria was a lot more equal a power to the Byzantines than you'd think... atleast during their peak.
He did not take it directly, but he most likely could've. Him vassalizing it was even better, though, considering he had its navy at his disposal now. The fact is, he had a real shot to do this, with a real decent navy for his time.
Blood_Prince95@reddit
The Bulgars who were nomads could dominate in open fields. But after they were Christianised and “lost” their nomadic ways, there was little chance against the heavily armoured and better disciplined Roman arms. And do not forget that the Romans did score many victories against them when they could bring their full might upon them, usually when the Caliphate was amidst a civil war.
As for the navy part, I am not that well versed into that period so I will take your judgement. But just like the Turks, the Bulgarian state could not easily march upon the City. It required vast resources and manpower to achieve even a psychological damage to the defenders.
For me Tsar Peter along with Romans Lekapinos were the two leaders that brought stability to their realms and could have seen a prosperous peace and cooperation. Sadly it did not last.
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
My personal opinion is that the First Bulgarian Empire and the Byzantine Empire destroyed themselves. The whole region would have been a whole different place if we actually cooperated early on and didnt go on those endless wars against eachother
arhisekta92@reddit
nno, we destroyed you both raaaah
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
Just to destroy yourselfes afterwards and help the Ottomans in their conquest of the Balkans. People really forget that Serbians fought on the Ottoman side in both the siege of Constantinople and the battle of Nicopolis
arhisekta92@reddit
bro can't even take a joke lol. rent free.
yeah, all 300 cavalrymen, since we were vassals. we even know the leader of that cavalry squadron. he would become a founder of the renowned Jakšić dynasty, who protected Hungary from the Ottomans and was in high esteem by everyone involved with them.
There fixed it. No need to thank the evil Serbians. Also, Bulgarians were largely integrated into the Ottoman ranks at that point, so we fought side by side, like true brothers.
roctac@reddit
Serbs always backstabbers.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
Rich, coming from a Bulgarian.
Btw, there is a very famous trope in Serbia about this. The most common phrase is:
"Kada izbije rat, ti udri po Bugarima, nećeš pogrešiti." (When war breaks out, just hit the Bulgarians, you won't be wrong.)
billiegabbs@reddit
Wow a Serb being hateful and having delusions of victimhood? Groundbreaking.
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
🇧🇬
billiegabbs@reddit
Weak 🥱
FloppyDiskDrives@reddit
arhisekta92@reddit
you scratch my back i scratch yours. so why so angry at us?
geizige-vorhaut2289@reddit
Playing on both teams so we always come out on top 🔥
TheGuy839@reddit
Summary of the whole Balkan
Mucklord1453@reddit
Became they dared to commit sin and attack the Byzantines, who they owed their Christianity to.
They paid for it by first being conquered by the Byzantine Greeks and then later were the first to fall to the Turks and then the last to be liberated.
Ok_Efficiency4972@reddit
Byzantine Greeks😀 First its East Roman Empire , the first official language ist the Latines one.. Till the end of the Empire the citizens called themself "Rhomaioi", not Greeks. Yea ,the Ancient Greek Language and Culture have a really big Influence there, but claiming that this is simple a Greek empire is a comedy. From the VII centure the official language is the Greek language. Till the end they are Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn .
Mucklord1453@reddit
Thats fine, I was just using words the average member of this sub would understand. I agree with you, they were until very very recently East Romans.
Ok_Efficiency4972@reddit
Okay, Mate! Be bless!
Glittering-Poet-2657@reddit
Royal_Association750 thought they were getting too close and so he told them to go back.
alkorisno@reddit
Every country had its glory days when it was big. Ofcourse, big doesnt mean better for refular people.
dinozavarr@reddit
Roman Empire turned Muslim. Constantinople thought they can survive on their own. Venice gave transport to ottoman turks. Plague. And that’s all folks
YngwieMainstream@reddit
Turks & mongols. But mostly Turks.
theyanardageffect@reddit
What about Turks?
YngwieMainstream@reddit
The fucked up this part of Europe. Especially in the 18th century.
Gaburra@reddit
They were Turkic.
YngwieMainstream@reddit
Somewhat
theyanardageffect@reddit
They forgot their roots and became Slavic.
Suitable-Decision-26@reddit
We stopped chasing the trolls.
One-Prompt5527@reddit
This is specifically referring to the First Bulgarian Empire. After Simeon the Great’s conquests the country was left pretty much drained both economically and physically. His conquests were very demanding and required a lot of men and money. And even Tzar Peter’s peaceful rule for 30+ years couldnt really keep the country together.
Add to this that some of the rapid conquests weren’t really consolidated + geographic limitations. For example the area of Panonia/Transylvania has a natural border that separates it from Bulgaria proper so its really difficult for it to be defended.
Frankly speaking the population is also not Bulgarian/Slavic everywhere so these separate nations are bound to rebel at some point or join a rival country if things turn sour.
abandonedtulpa@reddit
Honestly, if you look into Bulgarian history up to the present day, there’s a pattern. Whenever things start going in the right direction, it’s usually followed by some kind of catastrophe. It almost feels like the country is cursed.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
What means cursed? You live in a wealthy country compared to the global scale. Cursed he says, bro wake up
abandonedtulpa@reddit
Lol, wake up he says. Buildings are crumbling, roads are worse than in some African countries, no exaggeration. Infrastructure in general is bad, and don’t get me started on the never ending political theater or the economy and prices.
Andreuw5@reddit
Bro has become a masochist, while trying to fight his complexes. Be objective. Our country is becoming a shithole slowly and steadily.
Excellent_Jeweler_43@reddit
You can say that about 98% of the countries worldwide though. Of course its not all sunshine and rainbows, but Bulgaria is not nearly as bad as Bulgarians make it out to be
abandonedtulpa@reddit
Sure, it depends on what countries you’re comparing it to. But we’re in Europe, and the benchmark here, both economically and in terms of infrastructure, is Western Europe. That’s what countries aim for. No one really compares themselves to poorer countries. Take Ukraine for example, it’s been dealing with corruption and now a war on top of that. Of course we’d rather be closer to Western Europe than to places like Ukraine or Moldova, even though, for what it’s worth, even they have better roads than us. Countries like Poland have made huge progress since joining the EU, unlike us. I’m not saying there’s been no progress here, but it’s painfully slow, sometimes even laughable. Corruption is probably the country’s biggest problem
dwartbg9@reddit
No, they don't.
Unlike us? We weren't financially collapsed, with one of the worst hyperinflations in history, back in 1997? Similar to how Venezuela is nowadays? And just a decade later we managed to get back on our feet and joined the EU? Let alone all of the changes we had since 2007, or even just the last 5-6 years?!?
MartinBP@reddit
Progress isn't measured by the quality of fucking roads. Some of us don't even need to drive.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
Nothing depends. You sit on the internet to comment on bullshit and you make like 2k euro or more. Cursed as in living better than 95% of the world's population.
abandonedtulpa@reddit
That’s a pretty shallow take. Just because some people are doing well doesn’t mean poverty isn’t a thing. It can be brutal here, whether you realize it or not.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
There is nothing shallow about it. Brutal is when you wake up in Uganda and have no water to drink or when you wash in rivers of garbage and feces. Your take is just wrong. Nobody said it is perfect but "crumbling facades" are a first world problem, full stop.
abandonedtulpa@reddit
These facades have been crumbling for years until one day they collapse on someone. Just look at the train station incident in Serbia, it was supposedly even renovated. So what does that say about all the buildings that have been left to rot? Is ensuring safety of your citizens really a first world problem?
And as for Uganda having no drinking water, don’t act like there haven’t been regions here left without water, even recently. Again, just because you refuse to see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist
roctac@reddit
Country is not cursed. Bulgarians just make stupid decisions. Like going to vote in Radev after massive anti corruption protests. Make it make sense.
Familiar-Custard-216@reddit
“Wealthy country” while infrastructure hasn’t been maintained since the Cold War, there are no natural resources or even industries, and has one of the largest population drops in history since the 90’s, comparable to Ukraine and Bosnia in Europe, while 50% of the population lived in poverty or is close to being in it
But we should be grateful we are not like Uganda lol. Keep in mind, Uganda or Libya or Somalia have a geographic or war excuse for their troubles, what is Bulgaria’s excuse for being in its state considering most of EU Eastern Europe leaped us a while ago?
No-Championship-4632@reddit
YOU ALL GET OUT FROM MY HISTORICAL BULGARIAN LANDS!!!!!
This_Lion5856@reddit
BULGARIA NA TRI MORETA RAAAAAH
No-Championship-4632@reddit
I count more than 3 though.
Efficient-Impact3669@reddit
Because they were always tried to copy us, we are super slavic brothers
LargeFriend5861@reddit
?
Efficient-Impact3669@reddit
luda po tebe
roctac@reddit
Wut? Bulgaria was before you. If anything the opposite. You obviously don't know history. Bulgaria gave you the cyrillic alphabet you use and the orthodox religion.
sk0opyo1@reddit
Bcs small group of people controlling so vast areas can't work for long time + Heavy armored Byzantines vs light armored Bulgarian horse-archers .. the winner is obvious
_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit
That’s kind of a myth, the Bulgarian cavalry was heavily armored (for the period).
sk0opyo1@reddit
In that period Byzantine was one of the very few countries to poses armor, most of the world was light armored especially eastern steppe cultures.
_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit
There are two points I should make:
DardanianGOD@reddit
Even Montenegro had such maps at some point in the past.
SunshineMellowy6421@reddit
Because you are looking at a map from ~900 AD. It is now 2026. 10 centiries have passed.
EbbPlane1749@reddit
I told Royal_Association750 to tell them to back off
Royal_Association750@reddit
I told them to go back
complexluminary@reddit
“Go back! Get out of herë!”
EbbPlane1749@reddit
absolute gem "ë" usage
sun__disk@reddit (OP)
nobody wants to have albanians as subjects, makes sense
Ujemegaz@reddit
You are a quick learner. And smart.
sun__disk@reddit (OP)
an albanian almost conquered the ottoman empire lol
Citaku357@reddit
Why do you think Yugoslavia collapsed?
ivanp359@reddit
SoulEkko@reddit
We got a contract waiting for you in regards to Moldova. Interested?
Royal_Association750@reddit
I have a little thing in Iran and Israel going on I gotta look in my calendar. I’ll tell u when I can sort that out
SoulEkko@reddit
We'll watch your performance there and if successful we will throw in a bonus.
Plastic_Egg6167@reddit
I don't think they did.
As a political entity yes but in population and like ethnic Bulgarians I don't think it fell off at all.
There are the Shopi in Serbia and parts of Albania, North Macedonians, the people in Greek Thrace and Macedonia, Romanians
All of these people I believe are ethnically Bulgarian just with a different political identity
Novel-Incident-2225@reddit
Why did any and all of Empires eventually fell?
LargeFriend5861@reddit
The Empire had a lot going on for it, but it couldn't really last. After Simeon The Great failed to take over Constantinople, Bulgaria had to sue for peace. The Empire was really unstable at that time, but it seemingly more or less recovered, after 30 or so years. But with the Kyivan Rus attacking, alongside the Byzantines and eventually the Magyars jumping in for Transylvania, with a ruler who wasn't really a good commander to begin with... The Empire kinda just fell. Samuel afterwards gave it a good few more decades, but the Byzantines were just in a way better position to recover from disaster than the Bulgarians were, managing to eventually conquer all of Bulgaria, after decades of struggles and close calls.
dobrits@reddit
Cause yall can’t behave.
Successful-Weight-44@reddit
It way shortlived, and picked there. There was No Chance they stay that big. It was such a short period. So this Post is defocusing ... More realistic Statement is how in the First place they managed to get that far. Once off in a milinium
gargara_s_hui@reddit
Additional-Gur7915@reddit
This map is interesring to me. Albanians have more Slavic exactly in the light orange territory in the South. So, I'm wondering what that color means?
sazma_2208@reddit
that's what happens with empires, they rise and then they fall
Final_Sundae4254@reddit
Royal_Association750 u tha të tërhiqen!
Orgoth-the-fister@reddit
I was there but saw Royal_association750 and he told me to go back so I did.
fruity-hun@reddit
Royal_Association750 told us to fuck off
dankyspank@reddit
Royal_Association750 is to blame, G
Yavannia@reddit
Is there any country the same as it was at its peak? Compare some big empires/kingdoms and you will see the same thing e.g. France, UK, Ottoman, Mongol etc.
canyoubelieveitt@reddit
700 years of wars with Byzantines does that to you. Whilst we rivaled them for power Ottomans came and swooped both. Simple as
morbihann@reddit
Things happen in about 13 centuries.
topspout@reddit
I think its because Royal_Association750 told them to go back
sun__disk@reddit (OP)
okay guys Its Royal_Association750's fault.
ViscountBuggus@reddit
It's because of Royal_Association750
JarJarBingChilling@reddit
It’s all Royal_Association750’s fault
sxg3434@reddit
Everybody fell of except Montenegro
sxg3434@reddit
Everybody fell of except Croatia
Hezzyo@reddit
Royal_Association750 told them to go back
Sandzakguy@reddit
Royal_Association750 told them to go back
SwimmingAttention133@reddit
Royal_Association750 told us to go back