Why the SIG M7(8) uses a metal magazine instead of plastic?
Posted by StrangerOutrageous68@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 39 comments
It be because of SIGs or it's partners lack of manufacturing capability and infrastructure?
Interestingly enough in the early marketing material, outsourced plastic Lancer mags were prominently featured.
And with the XM8 modification, apparently came a 25 round magazine, possibly returning to Lancer plastic mags? We'll have to see.
And yes, it's M8 now.
coldafsteel@reddit
The original mags were Lancer plastic mags.
The change was driven by inspections after long term use. The AP rounds used in the rifle during combat (not the training ball ammo) have exposed steel tips that are rather sharp. Analysis showed that that under recoil and feeding the bullet tips were damaging the inside forward face of the magazines. The "easy fix" was to change the mags to an all metal design.
Tikatakasmatsy@reddit
Some one else may have said but depending on the OAL of the cartridge with it being relatively new they could be leaving room for experimenting with different load development
J3RICHO_@reddit
If i had to guess it'd be due to the lancer mags that they were using being kind of shit, my 5.56 lancer mags have all had durability and feeding issues, my stanag steel mags and Magpul mags have never had the same issues.
BeenJamminMon@reddit
This guy has the answer. Its because Lancer mags are garbage. They barf rounds if smacked on the bottom. I have seen them barf multiple rounds into the action when seated forcefully. I have seen many bent feed lips that induce multiple round feed jams. They rattle horribly when not completely full. The floor plates break of if ejected onto hard floors, even empty.
The real mystery to me is why they aren't using P-Mags. I would imagine that the metal mags are better at stacking in shipping crates and stuffing them in web gear. I'm still partial to the Magpuls though, even with all their bulk.
J3RICHO_@reddit
I'm guessing Lancer gave the US Government a smoking deal on the mags for the trials, because I believe multiple of the offerings used them, alternatively Lancer gave a great deal to the companies entering the trials themselves, either way theres no way they picked Lancers based off performance, even Gen 1 Magpul AR10 mags work better than them.
Leroy_Washington@reddit
SIG is just cheap. they tried to cheap out on the mag rather than using PMAGS, or Mecgar.
BeenJamminMon@reddit
Funny you should say that. Because Sig has Mecgar OEM a lot of their pistol mags. For whatever reason, the Sig mags cost 50% more than the nearly identical CZ and Beretta OEM mags that come off the same line.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
I mean you say that, but General Dynamics did the exact same thing. And I can understand the appeal in wanting a clear mag, as it lets you see how many rounds you have significantly easier than a window, and leave and let you see if there's debris in the magazine. That being said current technology for opaque polymer is it that great. And we could see that right now with magpuls T-Mag
Plus Lancers aren't really cheaper than a PMAG so I don't think cost really had anything to do with it
zeozero@reddit
Man my lancers have been more reliable than my pmag, the steel feed lips hold up so much better than the pmags.
BeenJamminMon@reddit
I find it hard to believe that you have worn out P-Mag feed lips, much less before you damaged a lancer mag. I guess if you shoot thousands of rounds without dropping your mags ever it could happen.
zeozero@reddit
I haven’t worn them out to the point they won’t retain rounds, but they have been beat up to the point that they sometimes will fail to catch the bolt on last round or will fail to seat in place properly, but to be fair that could be a gen2 issue. My lancers have held up and they have had thousands of rounds through them from years of training, aluminum mags and some generic steel mag have failed the most.
nate92@reddit
So glad to see this becoming the mainstream view now. I bought Lancer mags years ago because people were talking about how great they were. As soon as I picked it up I thought, really? Thin, flimsy, low quality plastics, thin metal feed lips which break off and bend easily. Lancer mags are straight trash. How they ever got popular is beyond me.
BeenJamminMon@reddit
It always boggled my mind that they would replace the material that naturally springs back into shape with a material that easily took a permanent deformation from an impact. Made no sense to me to make steel feed lips on a polymer mag. Seemed very gimmicky to me and then I experienced my forst bent feed lip and then I knew it was a gimmick. It would triple feed every time every time it would feed from the bent side.
The rattling thing is actually a major issue for my use case. I do lots of night vision pig hunting and we stalk up close on them. My friend had some lancer mags and after our first herd of the evening, he had a partial mag he put back in his chest rig. That stupid mag banged and rattled like a snare drum. It actually spooked the next herd we tried to stalked. I took a particular dislike to them after that and essentially banned them from future hunts.
J3RICHO_@reddit
People are really stupid when it comes to material quality, they assume shitty sheet metal is going to be better and more durable than high quality polymer because in their mind "metal always better than plastic" its the exact same logic boomers use/used to talk shit about Glocks
J3RICHO_@reddit
They caught on due to all the wacky colors you can get them in and because large guntubers like GT and Trex Arms started using them in all their vids, plus the mags being perpetually on sale for a fee bucks cheaper than magpuls probably helped.
RoweTheGreat@reddit
Because military weapons are used and abused for the majority of their existence. Metal mags are simply more durable than polymer. Less likely to break or react to different environments/temperatures. I used PMAGS on my last deployment and they were fantastic, but I can absolutely say that sand and dust would get into my pouches and rub against them and they were noticeably worn at the end of that deployment compared to guys with regular stanags who might have gotten scratched up but had not lost any noticeable material unlike my polymer PMAGS had. Even just regular loading and unloading wore them down noticeably.
sammeadows@reddit
I'd pair a mix of "lancers kinda suck" and this dogass rifle being a shitshow in general. The fact that this thing not only gets the title of XM8 and has been getting fooled around with longer than the real XM8 ever was is embarrassing.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
No, it's because the lancers that both the General Dynamics and Sig were originally using genuinely suck
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Take away the other issues, the overall design of the Lancer mag having the steel feed lips bracketed onto the plastic magazine is to be avoided but I can see the cost cutting benefit of doing so.
You'd want to this kind of steel reinforcement thing the Soviet way. Having steel tangs inlaid into the plastic, then a steel feed lip bracket, and magazine locking surfaces also inlaid. The AK bakelite and following designs is the peak of plastic magazine design. Although adding basically a steel cage into the magazine makes it heavier.
But here's the thing, they might not be necessary, PMAGs have had a pretty good track record, just know how to store them loaded for long term.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
It's not necessary, the marine corps had extensive testing for Gen 3 PMAGs because they were very concerned about performance and longevity, the reason all of that is needed on the lancer is because of how brittle/soft the opaque plastic is, matter of fact we are seeing issues with the Tmags for this exact reason.
Because it genuinely doesn't matter at all. Not to mention contracts change, as we see with the pretty much ditching of the optical system on the M7/M8
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Maybe it doesn't matter to you, but if you give a thought about the great many reasons why we, as in everybody went from metal to plastic magazines it will start to matter to you as well.
I genuinely want to know the reason behind this decision about SIG as this topic really matters to me.
As for you addage about the Pmags feedlips, I strongly suggest reading my whole sentence.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
You're aware that metal magazines are still in service right? Both Army and Airforce at least, and the only reason the Marine Corps went away from them is because the 416 is a pretty shitty rifle (in terms of compared to the AR15) and was having issues feeding M855A1
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Metal magazines are used all over the world.
I suggest giving what I said a thought. Seriously consider the many benefits of plastic for a use-case in a service rifle.
ADGx27@reddit
Metal mags are cooler
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
Literally
IlyushinGoBrrr@reddit
Total weight of M8 just increases even more. Imagine carrying 10 steel magazines of 6.8 PLUS the gun.
Donatter@reddit
Another commenter has already covered the metal/polymer aspect.
Another is that due to some shit to do with the 80,000+ psi and the hybrid, three-piece cartridge designed to contain that insane pressure, the .277 Fury/6.8×51mm Common Cartridge (the one intended to be used solely in combat/issued to combat troops in the lead-up to seeing combat) is not substantially heavier to the 5.56mm M855A1, but it is roughly 30% lighter than the 7.62×51mm NATO. (So it’s roughly in the middle of weight between the 5.56 and 7.62. Which is largely made up by it having far superior ballistics to both 5.56 and 7.62(alongside 6.5 creedmoor)
The round is arguably perfect for military application, except for the speed it wears down barrels(which itself is mitigated by one of the strengths of the US military is moving a lot of shit, spares, backups, and replacements whenever in the world it’s needed or wanted. Alongside, just the nature of a combat environment meaning there’s going to be ALOT of shit that’s going to break, get lost, get stolen, or just abandoned that on paper, shouldn’t happen. That’s why you plan for the worst, but hope for the best).
Plus, the 5.56 being lighter, doesn’t mean the individual soldier would be carrying any less weight. “Saved weight” in one category just tells the military that an individual soldier can now carry additional/make up that weight in another category, so the total weight of a full kit, comes to be roughly equal, irregardless of the ammunition or rifle issued.
(The “controversy/issue” is with the rifle itself, and even then, the M8 is largely fine, it’s just got the teething issues that every new but “drastically” different standard issue rifle has when adopted in peace time. (As sorta evidenced by everyone loving and singing the praises of the new M250 lmg adopted alongside the m8)
MidWesternBIue@reddit
Actually depending on th constitution it might be lighter.
The reason polymer is used for magazines isn't really weight but flexibility, allowing the magazine to have some give when compressed
Just to give you an idea (per AT3 tactical) a stainless steel Duramag magazine is 3.2 OZ, a Gen 3 pmag (per Magpul) is 5 oz
KorgothBarbaria@reddit
Yeah, polymer mags will bend back in shape or visibly break, while metal mags can look fine but still have feeding lips bent out of shape.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
They will also still function despite being cracked as the Marine Corps found out.
sweatymanmeat@reddit
Penetrator is too sharp for polymer.
thatARMSguy@reddit
Possible that 6.8 has some weird shoulder geometry that needs a different internal shelf in the mag for proper feeding, or maybe they just wanted to charge more money for their own mag than just using a PMAG. Lancer was never going to be adopted anyway, they’re nowhere near reliable or durable enough for military use
StrangerOutrageous68@reddit (OP)
I highly doubt th first part. Yes, the 6.8x51mm has more of a bottleneck than it's parent case the 7.62x51mm. But adding shelves to the front of the magazine does not have to do with a magazine being made out of plastic or metal.
tlawrey20@reddit
Because nobody is thinking about the poor bastards who would lug this brick around a battlefield.
MidWesternBIue@reddit
Stainless Steel Mags don't necessarily mean more weight
tlawrey20@reddit
True, but overall, they just aren’t thinking about the grunts
MidWesternBIue@reddit
I think they are, just for different reasons.
An example is the 250 being straight up better than the 249, being suppressed, being significantly lighter, etc.
We see other programs reflecting this, the new offensive hand grenade, lighter more comfortable body armor, etc.
I think the genuine concern for future conflicts has to do with thin skinned vehicles and other barriers, that being said I think the most important part out of the program is the bimetal casings.
Chumlee1917@reddit
"Your back, knee, and shoulder issues are not service related"
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