In this Chinese war themed TV series, the M1941 Johnson was used as a prop sniper rifle. However, I think the working principle of this gun makes it impossible for it to be used as a sniper rifle. What do you think?
Posted by SuperM3e46@reddit | ForgottenWeapons | View on Reddit | 75 comments
I don't know how the props team managed to attach a scope to the M1941.
ServingTheMaster@reddit
rifle does not make the sniper, mate
Newftube@reddit
I'm not sure what aspect of the M1941 makes it any more unsuitable for use as a sniper rifle than a M1903 or an M1. Sniper rifles in the day of the Johnson were nothing more than an infantry rifle with above average accuracy fitted with a scope mount.
GrahminRadarin@reddit
It's short-recoil, so it's never going to be as accurate as a fixed barrel design.
I_2_Cast_Lead_45acp@reddit
From what I recall they would just pull rifles off the line that tested better than others, preform a blessing from the Omnissiah to please the machine spirits and poof you have a sniper rifle.
TheEvilBlight@reddit
Isn’t what they did with Remington 700s to pick the them for the m40 contract?
Taolan13@reddit
initially yes. bespoke m40s didn't come along until the third wave of delivery.
jdb326@reddit
Yeah basically.
Jens_Fischer@reddit
I guess it's actually more of a rifle that's not commonly seen in China, and they made it a core piece of the story telling. There's some M1941 supplied to China by the Americans, and the backstory of this TV series is that they got their hand on this perculiar semi-automatic rifle, and the protagonist "顺溜" was the best shot of their regiment, so he's sort of got "awarded" this rifle by his commander.
All in all, what I'm trying to say is that the M1941 is more significant in the show as a plot device than actually a complete depiction of the rifle's usage during the Second Sino-Japanese war.
ConstantDreamer1@reddit
M1941s show up weirdly often in Chinese media, not commonly but seemingly moreso than in American media, and I have seen them in legit period photographs as well. They might have actually had more of those than they did M1 Garands, AFAIK M1s weren't sent as Lend-Lease to China whereas Enfields, Springfields, and Johnsons were.
Jens_Fischer@reddit
Yes, exactly. M1s weren't supplied to China during that time, and M1941 is like some of the only semi-automatics sent to China at the time. There's also other niche guns that got popular in China, such as the SIG KE7 LMG, where there's a total of 9225 units served in the military at the time, and 6000 of them being manufactured in China at the time. And of course, they're not popular at all in Switzerland because they didn't adopt the LMG.
M1941 is mostly assumed to be acquired from the US Marines in China at the time, and due to the Marines leaving their weapons in China for the Nationalists, they're also captured by the communists later in the civil war.
On the other hand...... I don't think they're in the lend-lease since it lacks some sort of a nickname compared to other supported rifles to China at the time and are probably some rare/informal acquisitions from the Marines at the time.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
I'm not sure if the US military used the M1941 during the Korean War. If they did, it's possible that it was captured by the Chinese during that war.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
It's not easy getting that "above average accuracy" from a rifle with a reciprocating barrel.
Seven65@reddit
Take any amount of the same type of rifle, then shoot them on a scored target. Add up the score of each rifle, divide by the number of rifles, and that's your average.
Take the ones that score higher than the average you have determined, and those are your sniper rifles.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
And those will be, on average, less accurate than a rifle with a fixed barrel, which is the general point of reference.
Seven65@reddit
If you want to compare them to every other rifle in the world manufactured at the time, go ahead, but militaries usually have the equipment assigned to them, and work within those confines.
Natural_Youth_5941@reddit
It wasn’t easy getting an “above average accuracy” for any rifle of the time that’s the point..
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
That makes no statistical sense, but I have no energy for this kind of discussion...
Karhu1202@reddit
Winfield offered a scoped version with a weaver rail, replacing the rear sight. Probably attached to the rear sight dove tail and the step block mount
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
As far as I know, the M1941 rifle used the energy from recoil to cycle the rifle. so I don't think this gun will have high accuracy, I doubt what's the point of putting a scope on it
reznov-where-are-you@reddit
recoil operated guns don't inherently have bad accuracy.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
Since the M1941 has a recoiling barrel, wouldn't that mess with the scope's alignment or mounting stability?
I_2_Cast_Lead_45acp@reddit
I mean your not taking a hammer to everytime it fires. Have you seen how bad some bolt action cycle and a semi automatic us going to be a kot aofter than those shooting wise.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
tbh I haven't had the chance to try those WWII boltactions myself, as private gun ownership isn't allowed in China. But from a modern perspective, it's pretty clear that bolt action platforms still hold a significant edge when it comes to pure precision.
-Mac-n-Cheese-@reddit
having shot a 1918 lee enfield, trust me when i say you have to fight the gun into battery as much as you use it to fight
trainmaster333@reddit
Are you sure you aren't loading the rounds wrong and getting rimlock, I own a '41 No.1 Mk III* and have never had an issue getting it into battery as long as I don't rimlock the rounds
-Mac-n-Cheese-@reddit
very likely what was happening, a dude at the range let me shoot it bc we were talking and i complimented his guns, wasnt my rifle and honestly i think still only the… second or third bolt action ive shot, so id be entirely willing to believe it was much more me than the gun bc i got the hang of it eventually
trainmaster333@reddit
Yeah SMLEs can be a bitch if they arent loaded correctly, especially with .303 brit being a rimmed cartridge, I got the hang of loading stripper clips and loading the gun after about 20 mins of fucking around, still on the original barrel from 41 and shoots straighter then my Tikka. I did learn to shoot with iron sights so that helps
I_2_Cast_Lead_45acp@reddit
Hell even the Keltec CP-33 will get rimlock if you dont pay attention
idogames4@reddit
Im not sure why you are being down voted, thanks got taking and interest in firearms and asking questions. Everyone starts somewhere.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
Haha, men have three great hobbies: cars, guns, and sports.
I_2_Cast_Lead_45acp@reddit
The standards of post ww2 accuracy between bolt action and semiautomatic is not really that different and would be abysmal to modern standards. Additionally, as others have said the distance of those shots is also significantly less also. Reading up on both rifles the expected MOA of both rifles with standard ammo is to 2-3 in idea conditions.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
You're right. I guess I was subconsciously applying a 21st century mindset to a 1940s reality.
fendtrian@reddit
M82 enters the chat
reznov-where-are-you@reddit
I understand where you are confused. once the scope is zeroed unless there is a catastrophic failure the gun will shoot just fine and accurate, even if it is recoil operated.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
The mechanical accuracy is less than for a weapon with a fixed barrel, all else being equal. Of course, with the ball ammunition of the period, that is a moot point.
BigBoarBallistics@reddit
not how that works
Nav2140@reddit
On of the first ever recorded longest kills was made by Charles hathcock using an m2 .50 cal, which is short recoil. 2500 meters with an "inaccurate" gun isn't happening
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
Yes, it is, so long as you try long enough. What is or isn't accurate is entirely relative and subjective. With the scopes of the time, Hathcocks shots were a matter of luck and trying as long as it takes until you make a hit (even still the case with all those ULR hits done with Barretts in recent decades).
Nav2140@reddit
The scopes of the time didn't seem to be an issue for him, he made multiple kills over 1000 yards with the same setup. The majority of the guesswork was the ammunition, which he fixed himself by hand loading every single cartridge to have the same exact number of grains of powder
I_2_Cast_Lead_45acp@reddit
When I trained up on a civy job we used special DOD(W) 308 match ammo. We honesty got rather good accuracy for what we needed, but we didn't expect to be shooting more than 400 meters anyhow due to mission requirements.
tlawrey20@reddit
You uhhh…. Don’t know much huh?
LobsterManCommander@reddit
To be fair to you, assuming moving barreled actions are inherently more inaccurate is a fair assessment given the most common pistol action (tilting barrel) does effect its accuracy over fixed barreled action pistols. But most guns of the period wouldn't be accurate enough to be considered sniper rifles certainly not by today's standards that includes bolt actions.
A more famous example of a "sniper rifle" that's not really accurate enough (even for the period) to be considered more then designed marksmans rifle is the Soviet SVD. It is problem with ammunition quality as well.
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
The DMR vs sniper debate is ahistorical, and differentiating that solely based on accuracy also doesn't make much sense. The Soviets considered it to be a sniper rifle, and it was accurate enough to fill the requirements at the time of adoption.
p0l4r1@reddit
M82 Barrett is also short recoil operated, that alone won't rule out M1941's utility as marksman's weapon
jrhan762@reddit
“…impossible…”
Don’t tell Carlos Hathcock, he set a world record with a short-recoil operated firearm.
DanielInfrangible2@reddit
"Sniper" doesn't inherently mean precision long-distance point target rifleman. It's a role: Professionally trained or not. You could have the job of "sniper" with a MP5 as your primary weapon. I know it's not what we usually think about as a sniper, but words mean whatever the heck the group of people using them need them to mean.
Otherwise, you're correct in thinking that an M1941 is terrible choice for a sniper rifle.
IrishGamer97@reddit
The GIGN used to mount bipods and scopes to their revolvers.
Global_Theme864@reddit
I think you’re overthinking this - it’s a prop. The Johnson wasn’t used as a sniper rifle - not because it couldn’t be but because it wasn’t a standard issue rifle to begin with. I’m sure the show’s armorers just used it because it’s unique looking, and with a scope on it that’s an easy identifier for “sniper rifle” to the casual viewer.
Petrus_Rock@reddit
Offset scopes have happened historically so it’s conceptually not unprecedented. Although it’s rarely done if there is no apparent need to do so.
Global_Theme864@reddit
I don’t mean it’s offset, I mean it’s crooked in the rings. The turrets are forming a V rather than being on top and to the right, so every adjustment you make is going to move your point of impact diagonally.
Organic-Elevator-274@reddit
He’s just that good a sniper he makes it harder on himself. If he ever used his full power the war would be over
That-Ad3966@reddit
What’s the show called? Looks sick
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
我的兄弟叫顺溜
seanprefect@reddit
If you try hard enough any rifle can be a sniper rifle. You just have to believe !
IlyushinGoBrrr@reddit
Gosh, I wince visibly when OP being downvoted lol
hidaney@reddit
In Captain America: The First Avenger it’s also used as a sniper rifle
boonusboiayyy@reddit
Johnson rifle my beloved ♥️
Dismal-Armadillo-815@reddit
Look at Simo he didnt use a sniper rifle. Its not the weapon its the man behind the weapon that makes it the most dangerous.
midgetzz@reddit
What makes you say its impossible to be used as a sniper? It wouldn't be the best choice, but plenty of rifles had a scope mounted (though all as DIY jobs, not issued iirc).
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
As far as I know, the M1941 rifle used the energy from recoil to cycle the rifle. so I don't think this gun will have high accuracy, I doubt what's the point of putting a scope on it
Dr_Allcome@reddit
The Barrett m82 has the same short recoil operation. I don't see why it couldn't be used as a precision rifle with a scope, even when considering the less precise manufacturing at the time. They wouldn't be shooting an enemy snipers' scope at ranges above 1km, but given the low magnification a scope would have had back then, it would definitely be usable at normal engagement ranges.
Would there be more precise options? Yes, but those wouldn't have 10 rounds semi auto. It depends a lot on how they portray its usage in the series.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
Fair point on the M82, but it's an anti-material rifle，it's meant to hit engines, not necessarily thread a needle. IMO the US had a massive supply of M1903s. It made much more sense to use a proven, massproduced bolt-action as a sniper rifle than a rare, complex platform like the M1941
Newftube@reddit
Military issue sniper rifles that 'thread the needle' have only been a thing for the past \~40 odd years.
Even then, up until GWOT a hunting rifle (or derived from one) or an older service rifle would have been the norm for an issued sniper rifle.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
guess I was subconsciously applying a 21st century mindset to a 1940s reality. It's easy to lose perspective on how much accuracy has evolved over the decades. Thanks for clearing that up!
MajorJefferson@reddit
What exactly is it a sniper does on a modern battlefield? How many "needles are threaded" you guess? On a daily basis..
anonyym1@reddit
How do you think any dmr works? They arent battery powered.
CrabAppleBapple@reddit
Anything can be a sniper rifle. Is a sniper using it? It's a sniper rifle. These things really weren't formalised for decades.
HistoricalBluebird93@reddit
What makes it impossible im just curious
Adventurous-Tie-1624@reddit
The 1940 testing showed the Johnson as 10% more accurate than the M1.
OP is making the mistake of focusing fully on the barrel moving, not how consistently it locks up at firing, and is also ignoring that the Johnson barrel doesn't have wood bedding issues.
The 1903A4s were not particularly great sniper rifles, and honestly a rather embarrassing effort compared to all of the other WW2 participants.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
Fair enough. I was so focused on how the recoiling barrel might affect the optic's mount that I totally overlooked the lock up consistency and the bedding issues you mentioned. That’s a great perspective on why the Johnson performed better in tests than one might expect. This is the first time I know bout the test. Ian's M1941 video did not mention this.
Ruashiba@reddit
Perhaps let’s start it backwards, what is a sniper rifle?
I ask this because, while indeed it is not a precision rifle, it certainly still benefits from having a scope. It will help the shooter see further, better confirm hits, and really be more accurate, even if the rifle’s short recoil action is not conducive for precision shooting.
To further drive this point across, look at the Barrett M82. The Barrett is also a short recoil rifle, the barrel is moving around just in the same fashion as the M1941, but you rarely see it without a scope, and it will hit accurately enough to far out ranges. Do you see the barrett as a sniper rifle?
This to say, a scope is better than no scope.
SuperM3e46@reddit (OP)
That's a fair point. I guess I was getting too hung up on precision while overlooking the practical advantage of just having an optic. A scope is definitely better than no scope for target ID and hit confirmation.
AntiqueGunGuy@reddit
Anything can be a sniper rifle if your him
Brown_Colibri_705@reddit
I'm not familiar with any military Johnson rifles being scoped but the design definitely makes that possible with some modifications. Here's a sporterized version with a top-mounted scope. Also here and here.
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