How did Turkey explode so much? They were always muslim so this cant be the explanation.
Posted by canyoubelieveitt@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 119 comments
So?
AdPlastic206@reddit
By not participating in WW2
no1rezefan@reddit
Sultans spent all of the Empire's money on Balkans, Istanbul and Hejaz while Anatolia lacked any major funding. Anatolia was a massive rural area with a few Roman-populated cities until Atatürk's Turkey only had Anatolia to go big.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
That is false. Anatolian cities developed alongside with the tanzimat era. You are just not going to have a rich region, when your government runs backrupt (1870th), then hits a famine (late 19th century), is flooded by refugees (late 19th century), after which multiple wars follow, draining young adult men from the the region (Balkan Wars, Italian War, etc.). As if this isnt enough, your nation goes into WW1, your region experiences several genocides/mass-murderings and it cummilates in an independence war, were your people are burned alive and your cities levelled to the ground.
Anatolia experienced +50 years of contineous suffering by the 1920th.
Lorumba@reddit
Show me any infastructure or building that was done by ottomans in anatolia?
Not seljuks not romans not bzyntine.
We are still pulling out mozaiqes sumela monastery and many more. What ottomans left on these lands except for blood and fire?
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Buddy you mentally challenged?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selimiye_Mosque,_Konya
Infrastructure to the holy lands. A row of fortifications preventing robbers. Public buildings such as hamams, hospitals, schools, roads.
AcceptablePromise242@reddit
Chemins de Fer Ottomans d'Anatolie? Built by Germans. Funded by Deutsche Bank. Owned and operated by Europeans. Was it really Ottoman?
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
You bunch are coping. Mosques dont count despite them being an integral part of the economy, infrastructure and educational purpose. Rails dont count, because foreigners build them.
If I pay a French man to build my toilet, does it really belong to me?
A smart man might say yes. Retards may claim that it is actually french.
Lorumba@reddit
To inform you most of those were done by the locals with their own efforts.
A mosque. You are telling me ottomans made a mosque? Surely these mosques are going to improve everyones lives right? Can you believe they made a mosque? How ungreatfull I am.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
"THEY DID NOTHING FOR US! LITERALLY NOTHING!"
"IF THEY DID SOMETHING, THE LOCALS DID! NOT THE GOVERNMENT!"
The cope is real. You are historically illiterate.
Yes they did, as they were used as schools and were connected to libraries, markets and proper road infrastructure.
Mind you I shared another example. The railways, which you deliberately ignore.
Lorumba@reddit
In addition the republic did not use people as bullets and actually cared for every loss.
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
Did they? What happened in Smyrna then?
Lorumba@reddit
If we are talking about the burning of smyrna:
Christian forces (group name for greek-british soldiers and armenian gangs) burned our beautifull city like they burned our towns in the sakarya retreat and we failed to establish effective communication-logistics lines and failed to save our people and the beautifull city.
Its a tragedy that should get more recognition and the guilty should get punished for their crimes. If beautifull smyrna wasnt lost to envious fires...
Now what we are left with is called izmir.
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
There are accounts of independent sources (like embassy employees, foreign missions) who saw Turkish soldiers setting up the fires. Also the commanding general under Ataturk forbidden the allied forces to help evacuate people. It all in historical sources, I guess they’re forbidden in Turkey.
Lazmanya_Reshored@reddit
What happened in Izmir?
zwiegespalten_@reddit
Anatolia had more or less the same population in 1923 as it did in 1071. The western type of medicine including vaccination, hygiene standards, medicinal assistance during child labour, other measures against early child death hadn‘t been established in the 1920s except in some small pockets in cities. Women used to have 7-8 children out of whom 2-3 survived into adulthood except in the next decades, these didn‘t die as children used to back then. All the western countries in the chart had similar dynamics but they had this in the last quarter of the 19th century.
Mobile-Training-3796@reddit
Refugees from
Balkan
How cute…
People whom moved to Turkey from balkans were mostly Turks. Unlike Syrians today, or Kurds whom seeked asylum en masse -600/700.000 of them- and kurdified the regions in 88-91.
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
*labelled turks
gimmieshelter_@reddit
you dont get to dictate who is a Turk, if they speak Turkish and identify as such then they are Turkish
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
Woosh. You missed the point.
I dont. However that is what historically speaking people did. All muslims in Europe were collectively labelled as turks by orthodox nationalists. There is no way to prove who was actually one and who wasnt.
gimmieshelter_@reddit
Yes Ive misunderstood what you meant then.
Natural_Holiday4673@reddit
Delulu 🤣
Mobile-Training-3796@reddit
Oh sorry, it was over a million actually.
Natural_Holiday4673@reddit
Sorry where does the AI say anything about kurdification?
Accomplished_Yam9477@reddit
Not only Balkans but throughout the Middle East and Caucasus too. That is why there arent that many Turkmens in Syria and Iraq now.
valhallamilan@reddit
Following the reforms of the Atatürk, a state funded institution was established to focus on this exact issue because a rapid population growth was crucial after a world war. The institution did lots of research to come up with the most effective methods and after exhaustive years of scientific work, we came to the conclusion that we should start fucking lolol what are you talking bout bruh people fuck, population grows, and they don't, it doesn't. Not the rocketest rocket science.
Commercial_Leek6987@reddit
A lot of immigration
NecessaryDisaster498@reddit
My family is from Anatolia.
My great great grandfather was a real fucker. He had \~10 children.
My granpa wasnt as good. He had 6 children.
My dad didnt want to follow family tradition. He made 2 children.
I have a cat.
RaidDrake@reddit
The young republic and its doctors put a lot of work and effort into eradicating illnesses such as leprosy, tuberculosis and malaria from anatolia also stillborn deaths. Combined with the educational reforms and not joining active wars, we got this population boom.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Turkey was poorer than most places in Europe. Poorer places tend to have higher birth rates. Ergo, poppulation explosion. Same way places like Egypt exploded.
EbuMonaBinLisa@reddit
So greece is very rich and thats why their population is decreasing? Hmmm
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
It spent the 20th century being more developed than Turkey. You can look into the demographic transition model, it's just how every country's birth rates have or are collapsing.
EbuMonaBinLisa@reddit
Greece were never developed then Turkey
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Even today, it's richer...
EbuMonaBinLisa@reddit
Greece is not even in G20 while Turkey is rank 17th in G20z Greece should pay the Eurobond loans to investors first. They stole the money of the investors.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Ok, let's try again: Per Capita, not total.
India has a larger economy than Belgium. Yet the average Belgian person is much, much richer than the average Indian.
EbuMonaBinLisa@reddit
So you are comparing 1.4 billion people to 12 million ? Must be funny 😭 Greek poverty rate is 27% while Turkey is 13%
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Oh, I give up! If you can't understand basic economics...
DatHistoryLad@reddit
It's not necessarily poverty, but the developmental/demographic stage they were located and the timing in which they transitioned demographic stages coincided with the scenario/time period that lended them the largest amount of births for a comparatively lower child mortality rate when contrasted with countries who were in the same demographic stage but in earlier times (19th century/early 20th century) when child mortality occurred, a.k.a. most of Europe, with their population percentage growth being lower than those of countries who entered that stage during the 20th and 21st centuries, primarily due to innovations in medicine and in medicinal practices. The demographic stage also heavily correlates with the developmental stage/character of a region/country, which heavily influences the fertility patterns of the population, as someone who is poor in Niger, let's say, is far more likely to have characteristics/personality geared towards reproduction vis-à-vis someone who is poor in Greece and grew up in a modern, developed society who is far more intuned with cultural and social trends, beliefs, subcultures, and so on which directly or indirectly impact fertility and their perceptions/priorities around it. Additionally, the Kurdish areas in Turkey are a step behind the national demographic stage, resulting in them having higher fertility rates, yet now they are transitioning, causing them to rapidly decline, and central Turkey best represents the national average in terms of fertility, as it just now recently transitioned to this model of low fertility, being in a similar character/stage as mid 80s Greece, while the West more or less is early 90s Greece, still growing in population naturally but with a rapidly closing window. The Turkish population will continue to grow for the next 15 years due to demographic momentum (sheer number of young people causing higher number of births despite a low fertility rate), and then it will start declining, as it happened in Greece in the late 90s, abd without immigration it will continue.
rudresfuthark@reddit
I didn't read this but i think you are right.
DatHistoryLad@reddit
Depends on what you mean 😅 if you want to learn more about this stuff, watch Kaiserbauch he's a youtuber who talks about demographics from a semi moderate/alternative right wing position that's pragmatic, fair, and analytical. He has done the profiles of many countries, including Turkey.
LookAtMyEyess@reddit
Then why we struggle here in the Balkans
dpenchev@reddit
Becouse young adults leave in search for better life and all that's left are old people. And people don't tend to have a lot of children once above 60.
LookAtMyEyess@reddit
I agree with you. All my family is scrapped around the world. I'm the only idiot still livint here.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
Σκοπια, είσαι?
LookAtMyEyess@reddit
1 ώρα από Σκόπια
canyoubelieveitt@reddit (OP)
That's not at all the explanation for us, with return rate being higher than leavers for now 5 consecutive years. Fertility still is at best 1.7 which for Europe is extraordinary, but still way below replacement.
shogunlazo@reddit
We don't ... If you count the diaspora most Balkan countries have similar population increases, it's just that after 1 generation abroad you can't really count them
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Actually, it doesn’t have much to do with poverty. It’s more about rural life.
In Turkey, most of the population lived in rural areas until Erdoğan came to power. For people in the countryside, the cost of raising children is relatively low. Moreover, each additional child represents extra labor.
In cities, however, this isn’t possible. Children can’t just go out and play on their own; they require constant parental supervision. Kids stuck in apartment buildings, unable to burn off their energy, tend to exhaust their parents much more. I think this psychological factor is what convinces many families to stop after one or two children.
Additionally, if both parents are working, there are extra costs like daycare or a nanny, which makes additional children a financial burden on the family.
After Erdoğan, Turkey rapidly urbanized as part of a state-driven project. The government began importing agricultural products right before harvest seasons, effectively pushing rural farmers toward bankruptcy. This was intentional, as urban capital owners needed cheap labor to increase their profit margins. Village schools were closed, and services like local healthcare were gradually reduced, lowering the level of support for rural populations. In the past, villagers didn’t pay for water, but by integrating them into municipal systems, they were made to pay water bills, and so on.
As a result, Turkey’s rural population was reduced from 75% to 6% over 24 years. Today, except for a few places (like the city of Urfa, where a more traditional rural lifestyle still persists), population growth rates have fallen into negative territory in almost all cities.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
Oh, wow.
Yeah, this probably also played a factor. Though not by itself. Greece for example had a birth rate drop while still being relatively rural. And its rural areas still have a low birth rate.
Thin-Eagle-4334@reddit
I don’t know Greek culture, but in Turkey, in places like villages and small towns, families often live as extended families rather than nuclear families. Children are not only the responsibility of the parents; grandparents , such as grandmothers and grandfathers, and even relatives like aunts, uncles, and cousins may share that responsibility. In other words, there is a kind of solidarity where relatives also help with childcare.
In cities, however, this situation is more limited, and families are usually not living together.
the_lonely_creeper@reddit
same here
roflstones@reddit
People of the same lands afterall. It's like that for Italians as well.
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
what "same lands" lol.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
I suppose it’s referring to Mediterranean lifestyle
This_Lion5856@reddit
Its exactly the main factor. For exampme in Bulgaria, the Sofia area has the lowest fertility rates despite being the most developed and people being the most well off.
Its the same for London, same for Athens, same for every big city around the world, fertility is directly correlated with urbanisation.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
I’d recommend reading The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck, which is one of the best novels written on this subject.
Of course, its main focus isn’t birth statistics, but it’s a powerful work about rural-to-urban migration and offers a brilliant, micro-level portrayal of how American society transformed.
Billywo@reddit
That vast urbanisation happened at the latest 20 years before Erdoğan during 80s could be argued even earlier. Today's ghettos of Istanbul definetly pre dates anything Erdoğan did. Unironically his administration is struggling with keeping birth rates high since 2010s. They are throwing everything at the issue and so far nothing has stuck on the wall.
EmreTaptukYunus@reddit
Last year, a businessman (property developer) said, “Studio-type single-person apartments generate huge profits.”
In pursuit of the profitability of the sector it has most heavily incentivized, the AKP has effectively reduced birth rates itself (likely too ignorant to foresee such consequences).
Confining people to tiny living spaces and then saying, “Go ahead and have three children,” is quite absurd.
I also came across a statistic last year about birth rates in the United States. The suburban areas we’re familiar with from movies—those detached, two-story houses with gardens—had higher birth rates than apartment-dominated neighborhoods in city centers.
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
That’s non-sense. Urban population share for reference: 1930: ~18% 1960: ~26% 1980: ~44% 2000: ~65% this is where erdogan comes 2025: ~94%
But there’s also the impact of reclassifying villages to urban neighborhoods in order to fastforward construction permits in erdogan era.
This_Lion5856@reddit
Its exactly this, same reason why for Bulgarians it was the norm to have 6-8 children in the early 1900's. Then followed communism and rapid urbanisation and fertility rates dropped as a rock, as it happened in every other communist country.
Fertility is exactly correlated with urbanisation and thats why countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan still have such big birthrates.
kekiusmaximusxyz@reddit
That actually looks so accurate, explains a lot for Greece and West vs Rest generally...
Ev_Batchvarov@reddit
Very interesting!
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
yeah,
same for other Middle East countries, really.
Busy_Pea_1853@reddit
Say gex didn’t worked for Greece it seems
AST360@reddit
It also has a lot to do with the end of wars, we were constantly at war and instability from 1908 to 1925, that is 17 years of constant struggle and war.
Mobile-Training-3796@reddit
And infrastructure is fucking collapsing now.
CecilPeynir@reddit
No?
Mobile-Training-3796@reddit
Ok buddy. And good luck on your next doctors appointment.. if you can find any.
dcdemirarslan@reddit
Adding to the other comments, Ottomans lost a massive population during ww1 and the following war of independence. So the initial numbers for the republic were already low, it just recovered fast.
zandartyche@reddit
Why would being Muslim be an explanation lol
Redditor6990@reddit
We, the Turks, don't shot for no reason...
Skt_turbo@reddit
Big respect to the Turkish People really strong 💪🏻
Hot_Weakness6@reddit
The answer is simple, artificial fertilizers plus a mix of industrialization and medicine.
Asleep_Company4166@reddit
Anatolia got the industrial revolution by late 30's. The mass production lines got Turkey do more child to send them work and gather more money. Then villagers started to migrate into cities in late 60's. My parents Always were in Istanbul and one of the first ones who saw how people migrated. My grandpa is also one of the migrated boy by 1954, he had 11 siblings and most got migrated around cities.
alkorisno@reddit
Yea, it is just late capitalism effect. Capitalist countries have lower birth rates due to financial hardships on working class people and Turkey got capitalism later.
slysmile@reddit
There's something to be said about the advancement in agriculture and mining as well.
After the establishment of the republic a huge research was conducted into (1) underground resources and (2) what crop could be grown where in anatolia & thrace. Ottomans had never cared about these things.
alkorisno@reddit
They just entered capitalism later so they didnt witness the complete demographic destruction due to decreasing living wages yet.
jandar1292@reddit
This does not include the immigrants. There are over 5 million migrants in Turkey.
Hungern_Archer@reddit
Before Ottoman Empire collapse in 1918 the population was about 30 millions but they mostly populated in Balkans, after the separation of Empire, population in Anatolia were approximately 12 millions. After the industrial boom most families started to have 5-6 kids if you ask the elders of Turkish teens father's and mother's they have mostly 5-6 brothers/sisters. The population boom started 1970's to 2000's and nowadays the population growth is about 1.2 lower then ever? That's because current economical crisis.
inflamesc@reddit
kurdish and syrians go brrrrrrrrr with at least 10 children.
kostence@reddit
It’s immigration, mostly. Turks were expelled from Balkans, Aegean isles, Arabian peninsula and northern Black Sea regions and Jews from Europe, during the holocaust and pogroms in Russia, Tatars of Crimea, Turks escaping from Jivkov of Bulgaria, and etc. and many other factors explaining the massive burst of population. Still, at present Syrian refugees are welcome, for example. Turkey has always been a place of immigration.
beneksiz@reddit
I think It was a strategy because we have a land area nearly twice of Germanys. In order to protect it you need to have a population accordingly.
When you read the 10th year anthem of Turkish Republic, you will see the relevant part
“In 10 years we have raised 15 million youth”
It was the biggest achievement of young Republic. This population lead us have one of the strongest army.
Hour_Major_1248@reddit
I think this graph from Wikipedia is pretty interesting - consistently high population growth with no negative years for the past century and a bit. Despite Greece, Armenia, and all the population things from history didn't result in a negative. Then migration crisis (est. 2.9-3.2M Syrians) from 2010s doesn't spike it significantly, nor Russia after sanctions (2022). Turkey has kept chugging along. I found it interesting to compare to eg. Germany (in Wikipedia) whose numbers (+ or -) were mainly 0.XX, like +0.31, or -0.06
oldyellowcab@reddit
Three things: 1. birth mortality rates declined, 2. births increased especially in the underdeveloped areas due to the need for cheap labor, 3. conservative ideology imposes larger male-headed families with more children.
uzumata@reddit
Religion hardly play any role in this process. It may or may not. It has nothing to do with being a Muslim. Can't explain population surge just using one or two elements.
azyrr@reddit
Immigration from former Ottoman territories helped I think, there was also a huge pus to increase population as it had been decimated in the prior 20 years or so. Tax incentives were involved lol.
YngwieMainstream@reddit
The immigration was what, 1 mil, 2 mil? It's more the not being part of WW2 and living free in the country side, which is a lot of undeveloped land.
BardhyliX@reddit
Albanians in the 1950s used to have as many as 10 children per family, now imagine that the more conservative and religious of the bunch decided to move to Turkey in the tens of thousands(officially, hundreds of thousands unofficially) add Bosniaks, Turks...
ECTheHunter31@reddit
Na a lot more than that. We are talking about balkan turks, crimean tatars, circassians, kazakhs, uzbeks, turkmens, kirgizs and many more turkic or muslim nations migrating to turkiye
YngwieMainstream@reddit
Looking at the telenovelas ads YouTube is pushing these days, you all look very European. I wonder were all those turkic people went.
ECTheHunter31@reddit
Ah yes the race of whose entire lifestyle is migrating from place to place somehow have different looks. I wonder why
YngwieMainstream@reddit
Bro, I don't think you understand. There is no representation of turkic people in those telenovelas. It should be at least some.
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
The country is a melting pot, you don’t even realize someone is originated from x country after one generation
ECTheHunter31@reddit
Because most young girls see europeans as sex idols so making sure those soap operas have european looking people makes the most money. I have a friend from bursa who looks borderline mongolian yet you will never see a guy like that in those shitty shows
Lorumba@reddit
Again not "that" much
ECTheHunter31@reddit
Not it does add up especially since these people settled in anatolia and raised their families here. Kazakhs were a minority in kazakhstan when kazakhstan become independent, before the crimean tatar genocide there was half a million tatars in crimea, now it's 7k after people coming back. We also need to count minority non turkish muslims from balkans coming to turkiye as well
Background-Pin3960@reddit
More.
DTalha0@reddit
Getting Turks from other countries have more impact than you think. They can be child-brearing age and they can start producing much needed population a lot earlier.
Slow-Charity-2194@reddit
Pretty much all these reasons (one by one also mentioned in other comments): 1. Rapid industrialization of inner anatolia from 1920s on (ottoman industrialization was limited to coastal cities) 2. First time creation of a welfare/social state (ottoman time there was almost no public spending like hospitals, they were community-funded) 3. Atatürk’s emphasis on science and education (local vaccine productions etc) 4. Avoiding WW2 (but at the same time population was crumbling with diseases + most men were at years-long military service so this is a bit overrated) 5. Connected to latter; advance in geographical engineering (ex. importing eucalyptus trees from australia eliminated malaria) 6. This one is underrated: all the immigration received (ex-ottoman countries muslims, turks, non-ottoman countries turkic/muslims, post-soviet immigration, even jews during WW2)
Head-Command5278@reddit
We didn't participate in WWI2
feyyazkolan@reddit
Can you tell me what does being muslim have anything to do with population growth?
DTPandemonium@reddit
9 kid multi wife sex havers riding camels in desert ass thought process for him 😂
SOHONEYSAME@reddit
120+ million is natural, for Turkey.
BouRock@reddit
It was crazy underutilized and under populated due to WW1. Ottomans had the highest casualty rate ratio to its population in the war. It was a crazy male population decline in the war times continues 20+ years
QuietWaterBreaksRock@reddit
Damn, how many people vas Yugoslavia lost for it to fall from this list?!
GokTengr-i@reddit
Turkey was pretty underpopulated for what can the land offer and 1912-1922 wars wiped out a great part of the population in the region.
ocelotttr@reddit
Only istanbul and surrounding areas were industrialised by the end of ottoman empire.
Reforms in healthcare, industrialisation and expantion of water infastructre in eastern and central anatolia made food production easier.
Waste-Restaurant-939@reddit
WW II
Amakusa94@reddit
this isnt about religion, its about economy, geography, comfort and freedom. well yeah, maybe turkey didnt have all of them but still its one of the best around that area.
GORDONxRAMSAY@reddit
They should decrease their population to below 50m.
Mustafa1558@reddit
How
GayOver@reddit
To be fair, Europe is just stagnating. Also, add to it they had smaller numbers than shown, since WW2 was on the gate. If 2.1% is the minimum for a society to grow, then you would have to have a constant of 3% to have proper growth, maybe more. Yet Europe is importing people and the numbers are still bad. Most of those numbers are just really bad, so while turkey did grow quite a lot until a certain point. It seems even more when everyone else is basically not growing. "Im Jahr 2024 hatten in Deutschland rund 25,2 Millionen Menschen (30,4 % der Gesamtbevölkerung) einen Migrationshintergrund, wobei der Anteil bei Kindern unter fünf Jahren bereits 42,6 % beträgt." - so bascially Germany didn´t grow, but regress. The common people are not aware how bad the situation actually is, because the "main" numbers indicate growth.
Jazzlike-Moose3123@reddit
Well after the collapse of empire we focused on ourselves. Maintaining an empire costs a lot of money and lives of soldiers. Most ex-ottoman countries now got to deal with russia and israel on their own. We dont intervene a lot.
Matagoran@reddit
Ottoman empire was a severely underpopulated empire. At the end of 1914 the population estimates were under 20 million (the number is probably under the actual population due to the human factor). The Anatolia itself likely had under 10 million people. Adding to that the ww1, and the greco-turkish war they saw a lot of population decline within the next 10 years.
Despite the low population of Anatolia, there were large numbers of populations immigrating into turkey. These were mostly Turks in the Balkans, Levant and other old territories. But also many non-turkish Muslims were also considered Turk during the population exchanges. These all contributed the rapid increases. I remember reading that about 25% of people in turkey has Balkan origins (whether Turkish or non-turkish, immigrating from the Balkans).
In addition to all that as others mentioned there was no large conflicts in turkey after that and people were encouraged to have children by the politicians. Turkey saw economic progress between 1930s and 1960s, which also contributed, as people consider having more children during economic stability.
AST360@reddit
It also has a lot to do with the end of wars, we were constantly at war and instability from 1908 to 1925, that is 17 years of constant struggle and war.
Matagoran@reddit
Yup. It's not that turkey suddenly became overcrowded, it's that it was underpopulated at the beginning of 20th century.
AST360@reddit
Yeah, I mean I lost 9 of my ancestors at Gallipoli, all at once.
IluxWasTaken@reddit
Muslim country of Netherlands also doubled its population 🙌
Ok-Monitor-241@reddit
We did not participate the World War II also they were some incentive for newborn at some time.