Remember Manual Mid-Size Sedans? We Compared a Whopping 10 of Them in 2003
Posted by lifegoeson2702@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 110 comments
Posted by lifegoeson2702@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 110 comments
turbo-toots@reddit
Let me guess, they recommend the Accord?
ExplosiveMachine@reddit
I mean, Jesus had one. hard to argue with that
5GCovidInjection@reddit
People get tired of Car and driver recommending the accord, but I recently drove a 2008 model with 250k miles and it was astounding how nicely it drove with all that wear and tear. The engine and transmission felt brand new.
It was my repair shop’s customer loaner car and apparently it received on time maintenance its whole life. But for whatever reason the previous owner abandoned it and the shop made it a loaner.
turbo-toots@reddit
I'm not tired of it. The Accord ticks almost all the boxes and it has for a very long time. It's a great car and it's accolades are well deserved. It's just predictable because those things are true.
p_rex@reddit
Recent one I rode in was a depressing crapcan with a chintzy interior and anemic engine. Really depressing, and I loved my ‘07 V6 coupe.
Weakness4Fleekness@reddit
V6 w/ 6mt? Fuckin loved mine
5GCovidInjection@reddit
Oh no this was a 4-cylinder automatic. But it made no strange noises and the transmission shifted super crisp.
Same_Lack_1775@reddit
I thought Jesus had a hot tie…or was that built one.
rambyprep@reddit
Apparently he didn’t talk about it much
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
But he did not speak of it
bmwkid@reddit
That 8th generation Accord with a V6 and a manual is on the list of my must buy cars. Only reason why I haven’t gotten one yet is they’re hard to find in reasonable condition
bdepz@reddit
Partial to the 9th gen. Had a 13 accord coupe, manual. Not the v6, but still an incredible car. Just not incredible for loading kids lol
ALDIsNumber1Fan@reddit
It didn’t have the room or was it because it was low to the ground
dumahim@reddit
Kids are already low to the ground. I'm guessing because being a 2 door car, it's a hassle getting in the back.
milifiliketz@reddit
They dropped the double wishbone suspension for MacPherson strut in 9th gen. I owned 7th and 8th gen. It was a major turn off for me back then.
bmwkid@reddit
Thankfully I don’t have that problem lol
Sharp-Video-4943@reddit
Holy smokes the Altima was fast. 5.9 to 60
ThatOneBitch02@reddit
People like to shit on the vq, but it really was a great engine by 2003 standards. There's a reason nissan stuck with it with minimal updates for like 20 years
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
People dislike VQs because of the way they sound and how often we’re made to hear them, not because it’s a bad motor.
ThatOneBitch02@reddit
Yeah but I feel like it gets a lot of unfair hate because of its reputation. I also think they sound good so long as you don't put a crazy loud exhaust on them, I feel like the hate is more of a meme at this point like mustangs crashing
When_hop@reddit
What does it say about me if I like how straight piped VQs sound? Tell it to me straight, doc
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
That you like warbly, trumpety sounding engines
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I feel like I was having this chat not long ago on this sub, but I'll contend that this is also generational and recency bias at work.
Nissan VQs from the factory sound very good to me, not too loud but an interesting uniquely sporty tone. The Z cars were widely praised for their sound from the factory originally.
The problem is that every single G35/7 in existence has been turned in to a clapped the fuck out ricer with some sort of autozone can welded to the end and that sounds like absolute shit no matter how you cut it.
I think the VQ proved to be a difficult car to make sound good with aftermarket exhaust, most of them sound like absolute shit lol. But that's not Nissan's fault, it's the fault of the 19 year old who's the 4th owner and thinks they have a racecar.
DriveRightCarBuying@reddit
Deeply unfortunate because in stock form, they’re great sounding engines like you said.
I oddly think the best tuning of that engine was in the FX-35. That car shocked me with how good it sounded, and I owned a 370z at the time.
Infiniti was so far ahead of their time in a lot of ways. They had a Macan 8-10 years ahead of schedule. Shame they were mismanaged from 08 onward.
iHaveLotsofCats94@reddit
I had an 02 Maxima with one. 6 speed, front lsd, the works. That was a phenomenal car. I love the VQ35. I just hate what other people do to it
When_hop@reddit
Never forget
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
For it's time, the V6 altima was an absolute monster of a car. The Maxima even moreso.
People forget cuz Nissan hasn't updated shit in like 15-20 years now, but through the 90s and 00s they were producing some serious performers.
vargemp@reddit
Nissans only downside is the CVT, prove me wrong.
Any_Sale2030@reddit
How about prove yourself right for a change.
vargemp@reddit
My mother’s Micra haven’t broken down single time for 8 years.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Well, the only other downside is that they're Nissan and chose to re-orient their business from being a sportier competitor in the Japanese space to being the low credit score kings lol.
But they're solid cars, transmissions excluded they're highly reliable, firm powerplants, efficient, well constructed (if simple and dated) interiors, etc.
Nissans problems mostly stem from chasing downmarket customers, then running out of cash such that they couldn't update their models, so now every brand new nissan is pretty similar to a 15 year old nissan. But a 15 year old nissan didn't suck outside of the transmission.
I was about a hair away from buying a six speed v6 altima coupe in college, but the good lord put an S2000 in front of me for the same price so I couldn't resist. But yeah, outside of image and Nissan corporate's business direction creating problems for them, very solid cars.
When_hop@reddit
I had an absolutely stupid supercharged 5spd 96 Maxima. It was fun til it caught on fire, which at least helped me find a much better car platform.
fmjintervention@reddit
Did someone say boosted Maxima? Here's the YouTube link, I'll save you having to search for it again
https://youtu.be/zorDNsRsqwY
Zealousideal_Bad3310@reddit
Everyone talks about how Ghosn saved them, but really he destroyed the brand image by marketing to the lowest denominator customers. Shitty ass CVTs didn't help. I had a Sentra rental recently and was stunned how good it is for a cheap car. Way nicer than my GF's Corolla.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I think he’s a lot more of a Jack Welch than not, seemed fantastic at first but eventually you come to see all the negative ramifications of his cost cutting. Nissan thrived under his leadership for maybe a decade, beyond that you can spot the obvious cutting - the CVT issue is a great example, allegedly it just requires an external cooler but they deemed that too expensive. Infiniti stopped innovating, Nissan model generations lasted years and years while competitors updated regularly, etc.
I’m personally not a fan, I think he’s more bad than good. At best he should have been a temporary CEO then replaced with someone who had a better long term vision than “cut costs”.
OllieFromCairo@reddit
The sedans are uncomfortable bare-bones shitboxes, but other than that, sure, the CVT is the only downside
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Anyone who has driven around Atlanta, Newark, or Baltimore can confirm how performant the Nissan Altima truly is
Modsmoddy-74@reddit
Commercials back then told me it was a four-door sports car!
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Lmao, they started using that in the 90s I think, the early 90s maxima had 190 horsepower, right in line with BMW 325/28s during that time - for comparison the SN95 Mustang of the mid 90s had 215 horsepower.
Power creep and all makes this probably not the best comparison - but it would be comparable to if the maxima today had almost 400 hp.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
They started marketing the Maxima as the 4-door sports car (4DSC) in 1989 (possibly late 1988?) for the 3rd generation. Here's a super grainy commercial of it. And when the 3rd gen Maxima came out, it had 160 hp. It wasn't until the MY1992 mid-cycle update in which it made 190 hp. My parents had a 1991 GLE model, buying it brand new from our local Nissan dealer. I wish my parents had bought the much cooler SE trim, but such is life.
AstronautGuy42@reddit
Nissan was so fucking cool in the 2000s man
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Infiniti might be the last manufacturer that seriously warranted a “3 series challenger” headline. Sad how bad they stagnated.
WeAreAllFooked@reddit
Went to high school in the 2000s with a kid that had a black 5spd '96 Maxima SE, it was a fun car to rip around in.
3rdreprieve@reddit
As a point of reference, the stick shift New Edge Mustang GT did 0-60 in around 5.5 to 6 seconds depending on who you asked.
Imagine if Nissan tried to do that today. They’d have to make it RWD, because no way is an OEM going to think a 500+hp FWD car is a good idea. The only way to get even close to matching both the price and performance of the current Mustang GT is to bring the top-trim Skyline over (that removes the Infiniti badge tax) and give it a massive discount.
stevespeed23@reddit
Yup, and this test is on the slower side. I remember MotorWeek getting 14.4@100mph.
That’s in the realm of Mk8 GTI / 230i / GR Corolla 8AT acceleration, in a family sedan that debuted in 2001!
A_Literal_6_Year_Old@reddit
The Altima SE-R of that generations was actually pretty sick. I haven't seen one it probably 5 years now.
quiksi@reddit
Early 2000s Altimas and Maximas were damn good cars especially with the manual V6
DALESR4EVER124@reddit
The Nissan does 12.6 seconds to 100 mph, but 14.6 seconds at 96 mph in the 1/4 mile? I'm assuming the 100 mph time is a typo.
RangeRoverHSE@reddit
I noticed that too, maybe it was supposed to be 15.6? Also the Passat trapping 16.1 @ 81 but doing 100 in 16.5, somehow gaining 19mph in 0.4 seconds.
SprackenZieEnglish@reddit
Not the worst thing in the world to lose the manuals from these sedans.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
People forget just how recently auto transmissions have become. If you compare fuel economy and acceleration on any one of these models I'd be willing to bet serious money that the auto is worse in both.
For FWD applications, a slushbox 4 or 5 speed with excruciatingly slow shifts, super tall gearing, and horrific driveline loss was very much the technological standard in the early 00s.
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
I prefer the 10 speed in my accord 2.0t to any manual trans I've ever owned, including those with modified shifters. It's lightning quick in sport mode and super smooth for cruising. Totally agree.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Yeah, it's an objectively better transmission, but I like rowing my own gears.
My supra doesn't have a stick cuz it's better, the ZF gets better fuel mileage, has more gears, is faster, bangs out quicker shifts, etc. I got it cuz I like it lol.
shouldahadaflat4@reddit
Hello fellow manual supra dude 👋
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Ayyyy!
You do the clutch delay valve delete on yours? Taking mine in next month for a few more small mods and thinking about doing it.
shouldahadaflat4@reddit
I have not and I don't think I will. I don't find it to be as annoying as other folks do and I think I'm going to keep the car stock until the warranty is gone, mainly because I find it plenty entertaining to drive and already borderline too fast for tight New England roads in stock form. But it's a popular mod for a reason, so I'm sure there's merit to it
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I've driven stick all my life and notice it quite a bit, so am planning to but was wondering if you had any experience. Mine's getting mods but very minimal - intake, catted DP with a mild tune (Really just cuz the 6 speed needs one for overboosting), not even sure about exhaust yet. A few cosmetic things like a lip spoiler, but that's about it.
It's gonna be stock +, with a very small + lol.
shouldahadaflat4@reddit
Yeah I could use more sound, but it does sound great stock if a little subtle. Are you going to be sending your ECU to Femto in Finland/Russia?
I would like a tune and a DP but I don't want to deal with sending the ECU out etc. I wish there were options in the states...
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
That's the thing, I really haven't done sufficient research on the ECU/tuning stuff so adding the DP is going to be something I do down the line.
For me, the Dinan intake seemed like a good compromise - it's not boy racer loud but it's louder than stock and retains stock air intake points so heatsoak is less of an issue.
I think a DP/Tune will probably come later this year, maybe late summer. The ECU downtime is one thing, but more importantly I want to make sure that the tune/tuning process doesn't create a car that has any drawbacks relative to stock - so like preserving fuel economy in normal mode, not having gaps or irregular power delivery, etc. I've not yet done sufficient research there.
If overboosting wasn't a concern I'd have the DP sitting in my garage next to the intake right now haha.
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
Totally get it. It's fun to have that level of engagement. Nothing can replace it.
vargemp@reddit
Is it not going crazy 1-2-3 when looking for parking spot or in traffic?
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
Not really. It's smooth enough you can't feel it if you're at partial throttle anyhow. The 9-speed in my Odyssey though isn't great in that regard. reliable trans but it's jerky.
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
No.
I've driven stick daily most of my life, it's just second nature, you don't even think about the gear changes ~80% of the time. The only times I find myself wishing I had an auto is prolonged crawl pace stop and go stuff - think like interstate backed up and at a crawl from an accident. Other than that, wouldn't trade it for anything.
vargemp@reddit
I was asking about that 10 speed
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
Oh fair lol.
jondes99@reddit
That’s an odd take from someone with an enthusiast car. Adding a little fun to something otherwise efficient to the point of soulless isn’t a bad thing. But I guess that’s why we’re gathered here today to remember manuals and soon, sedans.
SprackenZieEnglish@reddit
I like manuals, but not all manuals are enjoyable to use. Half the sedans on this rundown are old Hyundai group vehicles.
Nintendercules02@reddit
To give some perspective, here’s what each cost adjusted for inflation (USD, using the price as tested): Dodge Stratus: 40,334$ Kia Optima: 28,858$ Saturn L200: 35,202$ Hyundai Sonata: 33,851$ Nissan Altima: 41,616$ Subaru Legacy: 36,826$ Toyota Camry: 40,432$ Volkswagen Passat: 42,578$ Mazda 6: 40,245$ Honda Accord: 39,590$
cock________________@reddit
people talk about car prices today, but goddamn, that really puts it into perspective with all the safety improvements and creature comforts we have now for those same prices.
Nintendercules02@reddit
Yeah it’s honestly kind of crazy. A new Toyota Camry is roughly 25% less than it was in 2003 and you are getting ALOT more car.
10000Didgeridoos@reddit
I've been trying to point this out on this sub for a while in comments. Yes there are fewer cheap end cars available to buy and their prices have risen. But the real difference today is how much more inflated other competing costs are vs 20+ years ago like housing and food and education. People have a much smaller slice of their income pie to spend on a car now than they did in 2003.
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
The Legacy, Kia & Hyundai are in line of what their most recent versions cost but in fully or near fully loaded trim unlike the ones in the test which were lower trim versions.
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
Imagine paying that for a Dodge Stratus. A car assembled by drunks & rolled off the production line outdated & falling apart.
ArcticBP@reddit
I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS!
Anchor_Aways@reddit
HEAR MY INLINE ROAR
A_Literal_6_Year_Old@reddit
The stratus is very arguably the worst of the bunch. And that's comparing it to early 2000's KIA/Hundai. At least those were like 30% cheaper.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
You're using the wrong inflation calculation.
There is a separate calculation for car prices.
ZaheerAlGhul@reddit
We've lost so much :(
strangway@reddit
That Mazda 6 was blazing fast. A family sedan had no business being that powerful.
stevespeed23@reddit
The Mazda 6 of this generation drove really well. A V6 5MT Mazda 6 Hatch or Wagon of this generation was a gem.
Nissan brought out the SE-R version a couple years after this test, which had a 6MT instead of a 5MT, forged wheels, body kit, etc. also a cool car.
And the Accord of this generation was a great car. I always hated the rear-end, but the refresh helped out a lot. The “6-6” sedan is a unicorn, and also very cool.
hells_cowbells@reddit
I had the hatch in that configuration, and yes, it was a gem. It didn't make quite as much HP as the V6 Accord, but it was a blast to drive. And the hatch was so damn useful.
JediKnightaa@reddit
In case people complained that only now all cars and SUVS are starting to look the same i present to you these 10
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
The 6 is the one that stands out the most, it’s such a sharp looking design
hells_cowbells@reddit
I had a first gen 6 hatch/liftback model with the V6 and manual. It took months to find it because it was such a unicorn. I loved that car. I agree that it still looks good today. I didn't care for the generation that followed, but the final generation looks really good, too.
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
It still looks good 20+ years later. That gen with the sport package looked really sharp.
WATTHEBALL@reddit
lol no. The main difference and what people lament isn't the sedans themselves per se - it was the overall variety of not only different types of cars, but different pricepoints within those segments.
This does not exist today - not even close.
Back then you had:
- SUV's
- Sedans
- Hatches
- Wagons
Today:
- 90+% CUV'/SUV's where most are aimed towards top 10% buyers. I.E. top level trims/models only. Barely anything in the low to mid range.
ClosetBronydom@reddit
Yeah but my three box sedan with sealed beam headlights and a rectangular grille is CLEARLY different than the other three box sedans with sealed beam headlights and a rectangular grille-
ShadyDrunks@reddit
The autos in their new versions are far more fuel efficient. While I think an enthusiast might own one of the new ones as a daily, I don't think anyone gives a shit that they can't row gears in their daily
RIP_Soulja_Slim@reddit
I like to row gears in my daily, but I probably wouldn't own a FWD family hauler - but if I needed a four door midsized sedan then I would very much love something like a modern version of the V6 Accords or Mazda 6 with a 6 speed.
bdepz@reddit
Not manual but I did have a 2018 Mazda 6 with the 2.5L and 6AT. That auto was so slow it was awful. Probably would have been a good car with a manual or a ZF8
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
This is the review that made me buy a 2004 Mazda 6i Sport. LOVED that car
dangitaboutit@reddit
Has to be the best looking of them
ahorrribledrummer@reddit
That design is timeless. It's still a very pretty sedan.
Aftershok@reddit
Striking to see the comparative longevity of these cars. The only ones you really see regularly among the models compared here are the Camry, Accord, Altima, and maybe the occasional 6, in pretty much that order. The rest are ghosts (keeping in mind how many of each were sold - the Camcordima trio combined probably sold an order of magnitude more than the rest combined).
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
The 6s are pretty durable & desirable too all things considered. They drove really well & were solid cars aside from rust iirc.
Drifty_Canadian@reddit
Was just going to say, they were reliable but when I see one on the road these days they are more rust than car.
That's definitely what killed them
feels6@reddit
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vwman18@reddit
The Passat of that generation could also be had with a W8 engine and a manual. Not particularly fast, but sounded great and was a lot of fun to drive. They're super cheap now because no one can afford to fix them.
costafilh0@reddit
State of modern car market: 2003 mid-size comparison
Kongary@reddit
Family had one of that gen Accord with the stick. Was exchanged around the family rather than traded in as new cars were bought. Held it for a while myself as an extra grocery getter until another family member needed it between cars. It was actually kind of fun manual-shifting such an unassuming car and got going decently enough. Do remember that it had notably taller gearing though compared to my usual.
Would have liked to see these continue on the market.
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
The current Civic Si is similar in size & feel to the old 4 cylinder manual Accords & is around the same price range adjusted for inflation. The Civic no longer feels cheap & hollow inside.
yobo9193@reddit
The last gen accord manual was not great: the gear shifter had wonky gates and the CDV was obnoxious. It clearly didn’t get the development time it needed, because it should’ve been great
dodgy_cookies@reddit
Modern “compact” sedans are pretty much the same size as these “midsize” ones.
mikull109@reddit
Interesting that they considered the Accord's console design and controls to be avant-garde, but I guess dials and even sliders were still the overwhelming norm in 2003. 20+ years later and rotary knobs hold up pretty well design-wise.
Borne@reddit
A few years earlier and my Camry would have at least taken… the #2 spot.
cactus_cars@reddit
Oh shit a last of the stick v6 Camry. A real unicorn
jse000@reddit
Saturn L200 - save some of the manuals!
kyonkun_denwa@reddit
Bit harsh?
Maybe the sedan wasn't the right choice, but I drove a manual LW200 that belonged to my friend, and it seemed pretty good. Handled well, transmission was a Saab unit and shifted nicely (at least compared to my Esteem). The electronics in that car were bad but other than that it seemed like a diamond in the rough, like a budget Passat.
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
I agree. The interior looks to be of good quality.
lifegoeson2702@reddit (OP)
I agree. The interior looks to be of good quality.