On this day in 2017, Boeing 737 MAX 9 operated its first flight

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

Just exaggerating. Murdered by Boeing allowing a dangerous change, and persisting with a dual channel system instead of a triple redundant system like all other modern commercial aircraft. They even charged extra for the 'disagree' caption which would have shown one AOA indicator was bad. THEY CHARGED EXTRA for essential safety equipment to mask their shoddy dual channel control system.

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While these statements are true, none of them alone caused either crash. Both accidents were a combination of multiple factors by multiple parties. To say these people were “murdered by Boeing” is simplifying the story to the point of being wrong.

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

Sure. Putting a cheap AOA system in the aircraft, making the AOA disagree an extra cost option, removing the authority limit on MCAS, and then deciding not to disclose that the system even existed... that doesn't make it Boeing's fault. Sure. Right.

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747ER@reddit

Saying that Boeing was solely to blame is just as bad as saying they weren’t to blame at all. Your exact wording “murdered by Boeing” shows that you didn’t bother actually reading what the investigators found, and just went with media headlines from the time. I never said it “doesn’t make it Boeing’s fault”; you’ve just decided that someone saying “it wasn’t entirely Boeing’s fault” is the same as “Boeing was not responsible”.

Boeing was responsible. But so were dozens of other contributing factors, some just as serious as Boeing. These people were not “murdered by Boeing”; they died because of a series of progressive lapses from multiple stakeholders in the operation. These accidents are extremely complex, and it’s wrong of you to falsely claim it was all Boeing’s fault.

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

Boeing chose to make every cent in profit that they could instead of warning when they knew there was a bad AOA sensor. If you did this personally you'd get manslaughter just for removing the authority limit on MCAS. Then there's the decision to conceal the system and the decision to conceal the cause after the first crash. They knew that at high speed the manual trim wouldn't work too, and that affect the NG as well. Technically the least it is is negligent homicide, but the deliberate choice of concealing the system pushes it beyond negligence. The FAA and NTSB are political, so I don't care what they conclude. If the report was by EASA or AAIB it would have a lot more credibility.

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747ER@reddit

LionAir knew their plane would crash. The aircraft had repeated nosedives on various flights, over eight times in one week. LionAir knew the AoA Vane was broken on PK-LQP, and willingly chose to keep allowing it to suffer nosedives on every flight. When investigators asked about this, LionAir lied to them and gave them fraudulent maintenance documents belonging to different aircraft.

Could you please explain why you think this isn’t something worth keeping in mind? Why don’t you consider these people “murdered by LionAir”? There are only two possibilities here: you are either lying about the cause of these accidents, or you are uneducated on the subject you are so passionate in arguing on.

Your very own argument contradicts itself:

If you did this personally you’d get manslaughter

The LionAir engineers did do this personally. So why don’t you care about their responsibility for safety?

You wrap your comment up by saying “the FAA and NTSB are political”. The NTSB is very famously apolitical and quite often fights with the FAA over this issue. EASA has no jurisdiction in this accident, and the BEA has fully sided with the NTSB’s sequence of events and recommendations to safety.

I get it, you hate Boeing for whatever reason. But lying about people’s deaths to justify your hate for some random company is really grotesque.

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BoringBob84@reddit

I will also add that the FAA issued an emergency airworthiness directive several months before the Ethiopian Airlines crash, and yet, those pilots were unaware of it. Had they been aware, them and their passengers would still be alive.

Boeing fixed the contributing factors for which they held responsibility. The airline never even acknowledged theirs. When that happens in aviation, then those flaws in the system lie in wait to contribute to the next catastrophic incident.

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BoringBob84@reddit

The number of people who get their "information" from sensational tabloids is disturbing, especially since the facts have never been easier to find.

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

As is the number who accept their truth direct from the Boeing press office.

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BoringBob84@reddit

Read the official reports by reputable aviation investigation agencies. I am tired of arguing with willfully ignorant people who got their "education" on this topic from sensationalist tabloids.

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747ER@reddit

While these statements are true, none of them alone caused either crash. Both accidents were a combination of multiple factors by multiple parties. To say these people were “murdered by Boeing” is simplifying the story to the point of being wrong.

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aviation-ModTeam@reddit

Your post has been removed for breaking the r/aviation rules.

If you post in this subreddit, you are expected to engage in the discussion. Do not post images, links, or videos just to karma farm or drive engagement. Questions with simple or easily-googled answers are not permitted.

If you believe this was a mistake, please message the moderators through modmail. Thank you for participating in the r/aviation community.

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747ER@reddit

0 lives have been lost on a Boeing 737-9. You’re referencing two 737-8 crashes that happened nearly a decade ago, but the aircraft was fixed and has been operating safely for many years. Aviation moves forward by learning from mistakes: do you comment something like this every time someone posts about an A320 or A330? Continuing an undeserved reputation of an aircraft based on out-of-context facts from 8 years ago isn’t helpful to aviation in any way.

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Stubh51@reddit

I'm convinced 90% of this subreddit is Boeing/Big Corportation bootlickers.

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747ER@reddit

It’s so fascinating to me that the only people I ever see saying this have no experience or qualifications in aviation. You just stop by, see a bunch of people who know what they’re talking about discussing something you don’t understand, and say “you’re all conspiring against me”. It takes a special kind of person to think like this.

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Thalassophoneus@reddit

"Fixed" = They added another sensor, so that the self-falling software doesn't jam that easily.

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747ER@reddit

No, that is wrong.

This “self-falling software” you mention is used in pretty much every modern airliner. Augmentation software is very common, and there is nothing unsafe about having it in an aircraft. The 737MAX’s competitor, the A320, quite famously uses augmentation software which could just as easily fail this way. The fix did not involve adding another sensor: the Boeing 737 has always had two Angle-of-Attack sensors across every civil variant and every year of production. The software didn’t “jam”; it actually acted exactly as it was designed to. It just did so at the wrong time.

Why would you downvote someone only to reply to them with misinformation? What do you gain from lying about this?

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Thalassophoneus@reddit

This “self-falling software” you mention is used in pretty much every modern airliner.

No it's fucking not. The MCAS is Boeing's invention. This was literally the center of the whole controversy.

the Boeing 737 has always had two Angle-of-Attack sensors across every civil variant and every year of production.

No it didn't. That's literally why the MCAS was jamming.

it actually acted exactly as it was designed to. It just did so at the wrong time.

"At the wrong time" or the wrong amount of times? It kept "correcting" the airplane's pitch till it drops like a dead bird.

Mate, I don't know if you are some kind of Boeing bot or something, but if you are not you are obviously coping. It's really pathetic.

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747ER@reddit

I can understand that you don’t know enough about this topic, but it’s really not appropriate to insult and swear at someone for correcting you.

Handling characteristics augmentation software is very common in jet aircraft (and large turboprop aircraft). It is not unsafe if implemented correctly. Boeing did not implement it correctly originally, which is why it was a contributing factor to two accidents, but no expert has ever suggested that MCAS’ existence was a design flaw. It was a normal software implemented poorly, not a “bad” software.

Both 737MAXs that crashed had two AoA sensors. You’re welcome to keep denying this, but feel free to look up pictures of either accident aircraft and you will clearly see one sensor on either side of the aircraft. It’s not really a matter of personal opinion; there are hundreds of pictures of these planes widely available online.

The way you speak towards me and about this aircraft is very hate-filled. You accuse me of being a “bot” and very ill of this aircraft. If you’re not willing to engage civilly and actually read what I’ve written before writing “no! no! no!” in response to the objective facts I’ve provided, then I’m not sure what we’re doing here. It’s clear that you think I’m some biased person for whatever reason, so why don’t you at least read the accident investigation reports published by the NTSB? No investigative body has said MCAS shouldn’t have been in the plane: they have all agreed that it was just implemented poorly originally.

Here’s a short summary of the NTSB’s findings. I hope you learn something new today: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/US%20comments%20ET302%20Report%20March%202022.pdf

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FastFingersDude@reddit

I still try to avoid flying on them :/…

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BoringBob84@reddit

Do you have any idea what happened there?

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Difficult_Camel_1119@reddit

and 9 years later, the -7 and -10 are still not certified

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scibust@reddit

Can’t imagine how long it’s going to take to make a clean sheet narrow body replacement

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WickedLordSP@reddit

Probably it'd take shorter time to get an approval of a clean sheet design rather than designing something in which they claim it's the same aircraft to bypass additional training and testing requirements

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sofixa11@reddit

Maybe, but that's the same Boeing that struggled to get the KC-46 rolling out, and there were no such restrictions. The 777X is also beholden to the original 777, but the 787 was a clean sheet design and it still took much longer than expected, and depending on how you count it may not actually pay for its design cost in decades...

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Twitter_2006@reddit (OP)

I'm glad the Boeing 787 has sold really well so far and already has over 100 orders in 2026 alone, as of February.

The order book for the 777X is also pretty good, at over 620 as of November 2025.Keep in mind, the 777-300ER sold 838 in over 20 years, so the 777X will definitely surpass that.

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

The first 1000 delivered made a negative contribution to the program costs. So they are going to have to make an awful lot more to pay off the $34 billion that was accounted for when people stopped tracking the increasing cost. The negative contribution was never added to that total. Nor was interest.

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Twitter_2006@reddit (OP)

Google says they have to sell between 1300 and 2000 to make it profitable.They also have delivered 1300 with more than 2000 on order.

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

Here's a quote from someone who has been keeping track of the ongoing 787 costs. They put the program cost at $50 billion now. I don't know if the linked sources can be pasted.

Originally, the development costs of the 787 have been estimated at $32 billion. However, due to numerous manufacturing issues,[1]

cost overruns and customer compensation the cost now has been estimated at $50 billion.[2]

In particular, Boeing’s excessive use of outsourcing resulted in huge losses, substandard quality, delays and customer dissatisfaction.[3]

As the case of Spirit AeroSystems shows, Boeing has still not managed to oversee their subcontractors’ manufacturing quality, thus incurring further delays in the delivery of the 787 and risking the bankruptcy of its subcontractors.[4]

Recent manufacturing flaws cost Boeing an estimated $5.5 billion.[5]

In 2020 Boeing warned that it may face forward losses, i.e. that it may never earn any money on the B787 program, but said that the program was not in a forward loss position yet.[6]

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NotACompleteDick@reddit

Google doesn't math very well then. Do some more research. Boeing has shed incredible amounts of money on all of its current programs. Just go and add up all the costs they admitted on the 787 program. But this is something people are tracking, and thus far the program will still end up about $10 billion in the red. All below is quoted from the link at the end:

The current 787 firm orders are not enough to cover all of the amounts in the balance of DPCs sitting in Inventory on the Dreamliner program. The Boeing backlog for the 787 is 719 firm orders, after ASC606 accounting adjustments. They represent a shortfall of \~30% to zero out the balance.

Boeing expects that orders it has yet to receive will cover expenses made in the past.

It is going to be a long road to recovery for Boeing Commercial. Those amounts accrued in the deferred production costs will be on the balance sheet for a long time to come.

https://leehamnews.com/2025/02/04/boeing-deferred-production-costs-39bn-since-2019-max-grounding-22bn-for-737

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