Savage Geese: Land Cruiser vs Lexus GX
Posted by TrueSwagformyBois@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 166 comments
[removed]
Posted by TrueSwagformyBois@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 166 comments
[removed]
Neglected_Martian@reddit
Get the Land Cruiser for the 20mpg hybrid system. Toyota is king of hybrids and that 33% better fuel economy is a huge improvement. I drove my father-in-law’s Cruiser and it’s a fantastic body on frame suv, drives very nimble. I commented to him that it took care of every reason we sold our 4runner (slow/gutless, loud road noise on the highway, ancient motor, terrible gas mileage.)
MoistBaguetteLawyer@reddit
It's amusing to me that people buying vehicles of this price actually spend brain power weighing fuel economy.
If drive you 12,000 miles per year, we're talking a difference of $500 or so per year on about $1,000 monthly loan payments. Or 40 more dollars on top of your $1,000 monthly payment lol.
Mjolnir12@reddit
I mean, you don’t get enough money to buy one of these vehicles by wasting money. Every dollar you spend has an opportunity cost, even if you are rich. For me, I just have other stuff I would rather do with that $500 a year and I don’t mind the Land Cruiser drivetrain. In fact, I actually like the hybrid. There is also the environmental aspect of it. Driving a giant boxy offroad suv is not good for the environment, but the fact that it is a hybrid makes it a little bit less bad.
MoistBaguetteLawyer@reddit
I think if one is in the market for a vehicle and can comfortably afford a $1,000 monthly payment (at minimum), then $40 isn't much more than a rounding error. Otherwise, if it's truly a concern and the purchase would cause significant concessions elsewhere in one's budget, then that person is likely spending way too much on a luxury vanity piece.
Mjolnir12@reddit
By that logic, no one should ever have a budget for anything once they spend over a certain amount. I don’t agree with that. This also assumes the V6 is objectively better in a way that people care about. You can be rich and simply not care about the added smoothness and acceleration as much as the increase in fuel, maintenance, and vehicle cost. Just because you can afford a $75,000 vehicle doesn’t mean you are a billionaire that can just waste money.
Billybilly_B@reddit
This line of thinking is logical, but realistically that $500 dollars makes absolutely no functional difference for a consumer in this bracket, lol. We should stop pretending like everyone with money got that way because they are soooooo economically-savvy.
Mjolnir12@reddit
But I literally bought a land cruiser instead of a gx550 and mpg was one of the reasons…
Billybilly_B@reddit
Sorry, but bear with me: that’s not exactly what I was getting after. I completely understand that the mpg difference may be a reason that swayed you to the Land Cruiser.
What I am saying is that the mpg is not a dealbreaker. That $500 difference per year in cost would not have a functional impact on your life, would it? I understand the reaction of, “Of course it would have! I would have $500 more!” But what I am trying to say is that overall, you’re not going to be in a make or break situation because of the gas cost. If you were, you wouldn’t be considering a Land Cruiser in the first place, haha.
Does that reasoning make any sense? Apologies if it doesn’t come across easily over text.
Neglected_Martian@reddit
It’s not all about cost, the buyer in the market for this type of vehicle prefers the hybrid, better power delivery, less stopping for gas, better low end torque. There are so many reasons a hybrid made by Toyota is better, the better fuel economy is just the cherry on top.
Billybilly_B@reddit
Bit funny to me talking about eco-consciousness on a vehicle that gets 20mpg, haha. If this engine is so great, why isn’t Toyota putting it in the Lexus?
Neglected_Martian@reddit
Well when your shopping eco conscious body on frame off roading SUV’s that’s pretty decent, but I agree.
Billybilly_B@reddit
Yup, it seems like people are really enjoying this hybrid engine, I think it’s cool.
Mjolnir12@reddit
Well technically they do have this engine in a lexus, although it is a transverse version of it not longitudinal. It is in the TX500h and some other models.
And I would argue that a big boxy offroad vehicle is the best time to be concerned about mileage since they use so much gas.
Billybilly_B@reddit
I agree with you; hybrids make a ton of sense for off-road use. Plug in hybrids, too; having basically a generator with you out at the campsite is such a cool concept.
But the hybrid in the Toyota is less for efficiency and more for utility, anyway.
MoistBaguetteLawyer@reddit
There is a significant cost financially as well as environmentally when the hybrid system needs to be replaced for thousands, because the vehicle otherwise will frequently out last the original
Mjolnir12@reddit
Would ai go bankrupt from the additional gas money? No. Does it still affect my financial decisions? Yes. The gas isn’t the only cost increase; the GX550 has a much more complicated engine, adaptive suspension, and a complicated and pretty new EKDSS system. All of these will most likely add up to a higher ownership cost. For me, these things were not worth it. My land cruiser does everything I need it to do and none of the stuff the GX550 offered seemed worth the significant price increase.
Like I said, there is also the environmental impact. I don’t really want to drive a vehicle that only gets 16 mpg when I could be driving another one with basically the same capability that gets 20. Hybrids fundamentally recapture energy instead of dissipating it all into heat in the brakes and I like that.
Billybilly_B@reddit
Well, you are sort of proving the point I’m trying to make, which is that the MPG isn’t the dealbreaker for someone considering these two cars. Not that it doesn’t add to the discussion, but it’s clearly not the main factor for you (or anyone, as part of my argument).
boomerbill69@reddit
$500 pays for a weekend or two of driving this out to the mountains and actually enjoying it!
Mjolnir12@reddit
That isn’t the only cost difference either. Because of regenerative braking, brake pads and rotors on hybrids typically last way longer. A 4 cylinder uses less oil than a V6 and has fewer spark plugs to change.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
It's because it is important if you actually go on long range touring.
Don't pretend like fuel economy isn't part of a decision, even if it's not the entire decision. All this "it's an off road SUV who cares if it's 4mpg or 20!"
You'd care if it was 5mph yeah?
ticktak10@reddit
It's not that big of a deal... I get 13mpg in my 100 series and don't really care. Thats like 5 hours straight driving on the highway and basically from dawn till dusk of offroading. I mean, Moab's famous white rim trail is only around 100 miles long, you can do that on a single tank. There are not many stretches of pure continuous OHV trails that long that don't end up crossing a highway or state route. There are so many gas stations in the US where this is a complete nonissue.
No vehicle is going to get "good" gas mileage offroading, you'd be lucky to still hit double digits in whatever you got. I'm pretty sure I actually get 5mpg while offroading. Fill up right before hitting the OHV trail, it is that simple.
generalright@reddit
You don’t care because you don’t have the option to care, did that not occur to you? We care because we are buying new and are weighing pros and cons. I’m not interested in the GX, it offers nothing more appealing for a car intended for sporting off road. Its “upgrades” over an LC are more appealing to the luxury car crowd. If I wanted a luxury SUV I would not buy a GX.
ticktak10@reddit
Ok, you got the LC, dope, when did I tell you to be interested in the GX instead? They are both cool expensive luxury SUVs. That's not related to my argument at all, though. I still don't think mpg is a big deal and is near the bottom of the list of picking one offroader over another.
I forgot only people buying new vehicles can afford to care about pros and cons. I'm too much of a poor to weigh pros and cons. If I only had other 4x4 SUVs to cross shop with back then. I'm just a filthy used vehicle buyer, woe is me.
Regardless, you better actually offroad the fucker.
generalright@reddit
lol I didn’t mean that dude, not at all. I meant if you wanted a LX470, which I love and tried to buy once upon a time, you’re really limited to the mpg it offers. You may have cross-shopped other cars, I didn’t consider that. I was just saying it’s a perk over the GX.
bigboss90210@reddit
I have a 26 Land Cruiser LC premium. I think reviewers are poisoned a little bit with their expectations. I live on a mountain and this thing is very fast. I come from subarus and other toyotas and this thing is really fast for how big it is. I get 23 mpg driving it to work and back. I get 350 miles per tank. I dont baby it but i also dont it crazy. Just to work and back. To me it was a replacement for my 2007 Outback which i wish they still sold new. This thing not as bad as they make it out to be. Is it a corvette? No jack sorry. Is it way to expensive? Yes definitely. It should be 20k cheaper. But so should everything else. I tried a crv hybrid and they wanted 49 for that thing. Id rather spend the 70 and be done with it. And at least with the Land Cruiser at least im not on that ridiculous 4runner styling. The current gen 4Runner styling is honestly kind of embarrassing.
Tony-cums@reddit
Very fast? Come on. It can be decently quick for what it is but it is not very fast by any definition.
generalright@reddit
Tony, all that cumming has you splitting hairs about semantics! Fast or quick, doesn’t matter. It is absolutely not slow and that’s the most important definition of fast or quick. I’m never wanting for power in it because I’m never going 90 mph in it.
Tony-cums@reddit
It is slow. If you want to divide it out like that - it’s slow. It’s a 5k SUV with 349 hp. It’s slow.
generalright@reddit
No Tony, 326 hp and 465 lbs of torque is not slow. It’s right in the middle of the pack with other off-road SUVs. It’s comparable to a twin turbo bronco, Land Rover defender 110, grand Cherokee 4xe etc. I know it’s not slow because I drive it everyday.
Tony-cums@reddit
Ok General. It’s slow. You’ll just have to deal with it.
Bronco isn’t fast either. Good lord.
generalright@reddit
But it ain’t slow Tony, let’s cum to an agreement
Tony-cums@reddit
Dear lord. Nevermind. Saw your write up. There’s no saving you. Enjoy the car.
generalright@reddit
You know what Tony, I didn’t like the energy I put in the last post and deleted it. I’m sorry, I indeed will enjoy my car! That’s the whole point of it.
Tony-cums@reddit
For the record, I am cross shopping the 4Runner with the landcruiser. I am leaning landcruiser. So my opinion has been impartial and unbiased. I just don’t think they’re fast. But it’s all relative to the persons experiences.
generalright@reddit
I wish you luck! I got 4k off my Land Cruiser, enjoy the process.
Tony-cums@reddit
Neither witty nor funny.
If it’s slow or fast. It’s slow. Those were your two categories.
Durango hellcat - fast.
Land Cruiser. Slow.
Mjolnir12@reddit
It also has more second row headroom and legroom than the 4runner, in addition to the full time 4wd + offroad features (you can’t get a 4runner with both).
Mjolnir12@reddit
The land cruiser is not gutless at all. Any “reviewer” who claims that should not be taken seriously. It has a lot of torque and has no problem passing vehicles on the highway. My other car is an M240i so I am used to passing people being trivial, and in my land cruiser I never feel like it doesn’t have the power to pass even going 75 mph. The electric motor gives you a significant amount of torque immediately and compensates for any turbo lag. The one area the gx550 is undoubtedly better is in engine smoothness, but at the end of the day it is an offroad suv and I just don’t mind the land cruiser’s 4 cylinder that much, especially given how expensive gas is now. The V35A isn’t as smooth as the B58 in my bmw anyway. It also has serious issues with catastrophic main bearing failure that it is unclear if toyota has actually fixed or not. The land cruiser engine, on the other hand, hasn’t had any major widespread issues yet.
Other things to consider: the gx550 is only comparable offroad to the full spec land cruiser if you get the overtrail or overtrail+ trim. Otherwise, the base mod lacks any sway bar adjustment system, a read locker, MTS, and crawl control. It also doesn’t have adaptive suspension. People always claim you can get a gx550 for the same price as a non 1958 land cruiser, but that is just the gx550 premium which is missing all of those features. If your use case includes moderate offroading (which it really should for either of these vehicles, because otherwise just get a passport trailsport if you are only going on graded gravel roads), the gx550 premium is less capable than the land cruiser. If you compare the overtrail(+) to the land cruiser with premium package (which is still typically $5000-10000 less), it is actually missing a few things. The overtrail (even in plus trim) has only two zone climate control, and the rear vents are in the center console. On the land cruiser, it has 3 zone climate control and 4 roof vents in the back, so the AC experience for rear passengers is dramatically better. The overtrail can only be had in fake leather, while the premium package land cruiser has real leather. The overtrail also doesn’t have the switchable digital rear view mirror while the land cruiser does. You can get these on the other gx550 trims (like luxury), but those lack the offroad features of the land cruiser).
Other main differences are ekdss vs sway bar disconnect on the Land Cruiser (this doesn’t come stock on the 1958). For on road use, the ekdss is better because it works in front and back and starts with a stiffer sway bar, so the gx550 has less body roll for on road driving, especially when paired with the adaptive suspension. For off road use, I’m not sure it matters. The disconnecting front sway bar works very well and makes a noticeable difference offroad. Both systems increase articulation offroad, but ekdss also applies to the rear. However, because these are solid rear axle vehicles, they already have so much rear articulation that the land cruiser wouldn’t benefit from a disconnecting rear sway bar. Basically, if you have one axle with way more articulation than the other it hurts the vehicles ability to stay level on cross camber situations (Tinkerer’s adventure on youtube has a video on this). The downsides of ekdss are increased complexity and potentially maintenance costs down the road, and worse approach angle because the ekdss system is in front of the front axle, while the sway bar disconnect on the land cruiser is behind the rear axle.
Other than that, the other main differences are towing capacity; the gx550 has 9000 lbs vs 6000 on the land cruiser. The land cruiser is a hybrid, so it has a 2400 watt inverter vs the 400 watt inverter on the gx550. 2400 watts is enough to run almost any 120V household appliance, while 400W is not. The land cruiser has cool color changing fog lights that switch between yellow and white, while the gx550 are just white. This is more of a party trick than a meaningful feature IMO. The gx550 has better sound isolation and a quieter cabin, but the land cruiser cabin isn’t especially loud on the highway, especially if you get aftermarket rubber trim pieces that go between the windshield frame plastic trim and the windshield, which has a gap for some reason that increases wind noise. The land cruiser has more physical hvac controls. On the gx550 more of them are on the screen, which is also larger. The overtrail+ has heated rear seats and front massaging seats, while the land cruiser just has heated and ventilated front seats. The overtrail+ comes with the fancier mark levinson sound system, but the base overtrail actually has a worse system than the upgraded JBL system found in the premium package land cruiser.
There are probably other things I am forgetting, but those are the main differences I am aware of other than the obvious drivetrain ones. For me, I chose the land cruiser for the following reasons:
I don’t trust the V35A yet and it will cost more to run. It may end up reliable eventually, but regardless it is a more complex twin turbo V6 with an air to water intercooler and will have higher maintenance costs than the land cruiser engine. I already have a complicated BMW engine in my other car, so my goal was to have a dependable and cheaper to maintain drivetrain. The same thing goes for the ekdss and adaptive suspension. They definitely improve handling, but they are much more complex systems. For me, a land cruiser (prado) is about reliability, simplicity, and dependability. All of these complex systems are overkill for me since I don’t mind how the land cruiser drives and it does great offroad (so far I have driven it offroad in both Moab and Sedona). Yes, the hybrid system in the land cruiser adds complexity, but it is actually a very simple system and toyota has been making reliable hybrids for literally decades. I only get ~18 mpg, but i am running 18” falken at4w instead of the stock tires, have a roof rack, and have engine, transmission, and gas tank skid plates as well as RCI rock sliders so I have added a few hundred lbs of weight.
Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Does the strange packaging of the Land Cruiser's hybrid system bother you day to day? I feel like not enough people talk about how that hybrid battery raises the rear trunk floor above the hatch opening. It looks so weird, and feels very tacked on/poorly executed. The fact that the GX lacks that seems like a very big plus imo.
Mjolnir12@reddit
Not really, no. The battery is actually only in the center of that raised area. There are a few inches surrounding the battery on all sides with compartments that are useful for storing things like emergency gear and tools. I have not yet tried to pack so much stuff in that I ran out of vertical space. The land cruiser has a pretty tall ceiling so it still has pretty good clearance even with the battery. You do have to lift things higher initially to get them in the trunk which could be an issue for shorter people, but it isn’t an issue for me.
You would think that the gx would be better because it has no battery there, but on the overtrail models at least (which I would argue is the only trim levels anyone should be buying) there is no digital rear view mirror like on the land cruiser. This means that if you load stuff high enough to actually use the additional few inches of vertical space over the land cruiser, you cannot see behind you with the rear view mirror. With the land cruiser you simply flip the lever under the mirror and it switches to camera mode and you can fully block the rear window if you have to.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Thanks for the insight! That's very good to know.
Tw0Rails@reddit
Owner of car in review again upset reviewer (who must consider the customer spending $$$$ and give them a full picture) upset at any criticism of said car.
RIP_KING@reddit
This guy land cruises.
Poignant_Rambling@reddit
Agreed on all points. You should start a YouTube review channel to correct the narrative lol.
I was cross shopping a GX 550 OT+ and a LC 250 Premium (among others) but I ultimately went with the LC because an inside source I have at Toyota corporate recommended it for reasons I didn't even know about. Basically, this is a summary of what he told me when I asked about the engine issues in the GX and whether to go with the LC instead:
The V35A in the GX is an older design that was never actually created to be used in trucks. It was a retrofit Toyota did to avoid building a new V6 from the ground up, and the initial R&D focused on refinement for luxury cars rather than its use in trucks. R&D was initially focused on NVH for the most part, not durability or ruggedness. That came later. Toyota expects to eventually phase out the V35A as fuel economy standards improve, and the GX 550 is getting a new hybrid powertrain soon.
The T24A hybrid in the LC 250 had a larger R&D budget focused on hybrid reliability and the software working with the electric motor and turbocharger under load. The LC can also use regular gas. Premium gas is recommended but not required. He recommended using premium fuel for reliability though.
The GX is essentially using a luxury engine built and validated for a sedan in 2014, while the LC uses a modern engine designed for truck applications and the thermal stress of hybrid towing. From Toyota's perspective, it makes sense to put the most R&D resources into the powertrain they anticipate using the longest and in the most vehicles.
My thoughts:
My biggest pet peeve about these LC vs GX YouTube reviews is that they always pretend the price difference is just a few thousand. The actual real world price difference between the LC and GX550 OT is much larger than reviewers claim. The lowest price GX550 OT+ I could find was $89k after markups ($84k MSRP), while my LC 250 Premium was $68k after a dealer incentive (was $71k MSRP). My buddy purchased a GX550 OT+ when they initially came out, and he paid over $94k... That price gap is massive, yet reviewers pretend it's only a few thousand because they are stuck regurgitating a 2024 price sheet that uses the LC First Edition's $7k option cost.
The other reason I went with the LC was because my friend has had a few issues with his GX so far. His E-KDSS had to be replaced in less than a year because the motor is bolted directly onto the front bash plate, and when he hit a rock it moved the housing and it stopped working... The LC's stabilizer bar is safely behind the axle as you mentioned, so no worries there. Also, if you lift the GX, you have to pay a technician to zero out the yaw rate sensor or it won't work on the street (which I doubt most GX owners even know to do), whereas you can just lift the LC without dealing with that complexity.
My friend's GX also has that common hood fluttering issue that Toyota hasn't been able to fix. My LC feels more aerodynamic at high speeds (as aerodynamic as a brick can be), likely due to the hood actually functioning as intended, and its active grille shutters.
I actually prefer the LC's power delivery because the instant torque makes driving around town and off roading feel effortless. That's something these reviewers don't highlight. The electric motor is good to have on the road, but off road is where it seems to really shine. The electric motor even allows for silent driving on trails, which is an awesome experience you can't have in the GX or most body on frame off roaders. The LC uses the electric motor for off road traction braking too, making it much quieter than the GX, which makes odd clanking sounds from its traditional hydraulic setup.
The GX has more top end power but way more turbo lag.
As for sound deadening, the only extra the GX has over the LC is acoustic glass, which you can add to a LC because it fits perfectly.
MPG differences are even more apparent when you beef up the rubber. After putting bigger AT's the GX averaged 14.5 mpg while the LC got 21.5 mpg on the same trip. Same roads, same stops. And the GX has 33" while my LC has 34" tires. That 50% increase in MPG gives the LC much more usable range despite the GX having a slightly larger tank. He kept having to stop for gas when I still had a quarter tank or more. The short fuel range is the biggest flaw for either vehicles imo, so the GX having a worse "biggest flaw" is an important thing to consider, especially since it's not an easily fixable flaw.
Insurance premiums and labor costs are higher for the Lexus, and the GX's one piece front bumper costs a ton to replace if you dent it. The LC uses a bunch of small modular panels on the front bumper that are cheaper and easy to swap. It's like it's designed for a driver they know will probably hit a rock with it lol. The LC isn't just a cheaper car to buy, it's also cheaper to own.
The LC is a better camping rig because of the 2400 watt inverter. The power setup is done from the factory so it's ready to go. The hybrid battery lets the AC work while the engine's off, and I’ve even used the outlet to run an extension cord to my house during a blackout to power lights and the refrigerator. The GX requires the engine to be on just to use its weak 400 watt inverter, which can barely power anything useful.
The regenerative braking in the LC helps with downhill descents and reduces wear on the brake pads. I didn't expect this to be so useful. There's a spot we go to a lot where park rangers use temp gauges to check brake temps for all vehicles passing through before they're allowed to continue downhill. My LC's brakes were basically cold, which confused the ranger. They thought their handheld temp reader broke lol. My friend's brakes were hot enough that they made him wait 10 minutes in the rest area for them to cool down a bit. Both cars were in 4L and traveled the same distance downhill, but the LC's regen braking made is so I barely used the brakes at all compared to him.
And my favorite hidden benefit of the LC is how it has a near 50/50 weight distribution and a lower center of gravity due to the rear batteries, making it feel incredibly planted. It's surprisingly one of the funnest SUVs to drive fast on dirt roads. 4H with the center diff unlocked gives you the 40/60 rear bias power split and ability to kick out the back tires when you want. I was literally dirt drifting in a new LC lol. The GX didn't feel as planted on slick conditions, or able to kick out the rear tires on dirt, likely due to the larger engine putting more weight up front, and the E-KDSS that randomly likes to turn on and off. It felt more bouncy and top heavy than the LC on those dirt roads.
That said, the LC isn't perfect. The gas tank and stock tires are almost practical jokes, and the ground clearance and wind noise are not ideal. The raspy engine noise undermines the actual power and torque figures, and the front skid plate bolts to the radiator frame, which is a huge design flaw.
One thing the GX clearly has over the LC is a larger rear diff. I wish there was an option to get that on the LC, considering it's also on the new 4Runner TRD Pro and Trailhunter trims.
Bet you weren't expecting someone to respond with their own TED Talk lol.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I feel like calling it gutless is fine criticism when its approaching base x5 money, almost defender 110 i6 money & exceeding armada money, its all relative
terroristteddy@reddit
Absolutely, but as the commenter was saying Toyota and Lexus buyers are generally looking for reliability, lower running costs, and probably resale value. As a lease I would agree that the BMW is going to be a better performer, but as a long term off-roader do it all rig, I don't think many buyers are considering BMW/Merc
hi_im_bored13@reddit
One of these cars had a mass recall for grenading engines & it wasnt the bimmer
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
I think compare it to the previous 1GR and it comes up better.
An X5 is in different class. The defender is a better comparison. Armada would be vs the V35A / F33 in the 300 series.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
In size yes but in pricing its below the sequoia (& I suppose the 300 if it sold here)
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
How is the reliability on the 110?
Mjolnir12@reddit
Peak land rover reliability im sure
RollTh3Maps@reddit
Along with notoriously cheap repair costs. /s (this probably wasn't necessary, but you never know)
Astramael@reddit
Have people never driven Toyota trucks in the past? They’ve always been this way. It’s not like the V6 in the last generation 4Runner was any good, it made more noise than power. Driven my fair share of straight six diesel Land Cruisers, all felt pretty anemic. Even the V8 Land Cruiser wagons weren’t very fast. Same is true of the decades of I4 diesel Hiluxes.
The I4 Hybrid J250 is quicker and more responsive than most of these cars.
It seems like Americans have been exposed to such a small slice of the Toyota truck line that they don’t have any perspective. I’ve been pleasantly surprised by how well the T24 LC drives. Especially vs other Prados like the J120 with popular 1KD.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I'm not saying its a con to be clear, its perfectly acceptable considering what you get, they've obviously spent that money elsewhere
But SG's general point was that if you are buying this as a lifestyle vehicle, which many are, you're getting a worse drivetrain for your needs, they were very positive on its low end torque just that it doesn't feel great a bit higher
& yeah its never been good but toyota can always change
Even within Toyota's lineup for the americans its starting sequoia money, & thats been a troubled drivetrain for them, but pretending it works for a sec it gets on fine & is fairly potent
Astramael@reddit
Yea if the V35A was reliable it would be pretty good. But until there’s independent confirmation that it is fixed I can’t recommend anybody touch one.
I kind of am. The HD LC and Hilux are work trucks, so they can get away with being industrial. The Prado and Tacoma aren’t, they are (as you said) lifestyle rigs.
Back when I was looking at possibly buying a truck, it was pretty clear that the Tacoma and Tundra were worst in class. Toyota just doesn’t complete with the rapid advancement and refinement of American full size trucks.
My point really is that when I get into a Toyota truck I don’t expect them to feel refined. So the incredulous nature with which many reviewers talk about this always feels weird to me. Yes, this is how they are, yes this is how they’ve always been, don’t act surprised.
The argument that they should be better at the price, sure, fair enough.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I don't hate it as much only bc they have the same package in the 4runner w/ a little more palatable config & price
like not that the 4runner limited is luxurious or comfortable or anything its still an unrefined piece of shit but its 10k less, optional third row, also full-time, decently specced
Toyota lets you pick between the slightly more american spec & this European thing we brought over for the sake of it, or get that in american spec as a lexus, I kinda like the idea
Mjolnir12@reddit
The Limited is in a weird spot though. It is clearly positioned as the “on road” variant, but idk why you would buy a 4runner for on road use. It seems like a grand highlander would be better for almost everyone that is looking at a limited 4runner. The non overtrail gx550 is in a similar place.
Mjolnir12@reddit
I view “gutless” as more of an absolute statement than a relative one; i.e. it doesn’t have enough power to safely do the things it needs to do like getting up to highway speed or passing people. Sure, there are faster vehicles at the same price point. The X5 has dramatically less offroad capability than the J250 vehicles so it’s not really fair to compare it directly just because it is the same price. BMW can afford to put a more powerful drivetrain in it at that pricepoint because it doesn’t have all the other offroad features (like real 4wd). The defender 110 i6 is a bit more powerful, but also costs more and has a turbocharger AND supercharger AND is a land rover, so I’m not sure how reliability will be long term…
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Thats not what gutless means, you can not have gut & do everything just fine, you just aren't going to be as quick to do it
I don't get this, it's by nature going to be relative to everything in this class & everything they review. Especially in a comparison to the GX
I didn't see any point in the review where they said the acceleration was dangerous, its perfectly passable, its just not worth praising
In fact they were pretty explicit that its relative & praise the low down torque
Mjolnir12@reddit
I agree with most of that; I just think some people hear “gutless” and get the wrong idea and think it literally isn’t powerful enough for its size for everyday use. The engine definitely feels more composed at lower rpm and rough when you rev it, unlike something like a B58 that sounds even better when you wring it out. I just view it more like a diesel that wants to be down at low rpm. This is an offroad suv; I didn’t buy it to be a performance vehicle. I bought it so I can go anywhere for years without worrying about getting stuck or having mechanical issues. For me it is more in the “appliance” category than “enthusiast vehicle” category so I would rather have the simplicity and better fuel economy of the 4 cylinder. I may be in the minority though.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah & thats totally fair I just think they were issuing a warning to those buying it as a lifestyle product & not to take it personally
If you considering where they've spent that money & compare it to comparably equipped defenders w/ low range, locking diffs, etc. then the pricing is very favorable
Mjolnir12@reddit
Yeah if i lived in a city and was buying this as a flex (which everyone online seems to assume for some reason) the engine would be a definite negative vs comparably priced suv shaped objects. However, where I live there are a ton of rough, unpaved roads and I am within a day’s drive of some of the best offroading in the world so it isn’t a pavement princess.
DJkoolkidzklan@reddit
I rented a Land Cruiser last year on Turo and when driving on the freeway (70-85mph in SoCal) I felt that the wind noise was quite noticeable... but this was on a pretty much brand new car that likely didn't have the aftermarket trim. Delighted to hear that there are solutions for this!!! It really had turned me off from the car
g-4-ces@reddit
Yeah my GX550 lux+ was easy 85dbs at 80mph
DJkoolkidzklan@reddit
You got rid of it! For the Cayenne + Jeep combo?
g-4-ces@reddit
Cayenne. Jeep was a 2012 JKU that essentially died
Mjolnir12@reddit
Yeah its like a $30 piece of rubber you can buy from a ton of sellers on amazon. I was skeptical, but it made a noticeable difference in the wind noise. It brought it down to about the same level as the noise from my AT tires, which is about the best i can hope for.
captainnowalk@reddit
Hmmm I dunno about that. As I have learned from r/cars, absolutely no one takes their vehicles off-road beyond a dirt parking lot, and you must be talking about the local Costco. Lord knows that every off-road trail in America is completely desolate and empty of all people :(
Mjolnir12@reddit
Darn, you caught me. For my true use case of going to costco I really should have just bought a miata and/or minivan instead.
captainnowalk@reddit
Bingo! I would’ve also accepted a Prius. As we all know, seeing that one dude who doesn’t care if his car is usable afterwards absolutely sending his Prius down a rocky trail means everyone that wants to use that trail should do the same!
Mjolnir12@reddit
There is a video of a guy taking a prius on hell’s revenge. He gets surprisingly far.
WarCrimeGaming@reddit
Thanks. I’ve been thing of getting one in a year or two to go with my Supra. B58 is awesome
Mjolnir12@reddit
Yeah, i wish toyota could have just somehow put the B58 in the gx550. It is smoother than the V35A and more reliable from the looks of it. I know the ineos grenadier exists, but that is just too compromised for everyday use and also they dramatically detune the B58 in that so it isn’t even fast.
Ok-Hunt-128@reddit
Even then the kdss system and swaybars can get in the way of approach angles.
Mjolnir12@reddit
Yeah and I would imagine it also gets in the way of more substantial suspension mods
CorrectCombination11@reddit
Thank you feel making me feel good about my choices.
LlamasNeverLie@reddit
Wow, that was actually a great overview.
yourpinkhabit@reddit
The range is the real deal-breaker for me. Spending $70k+ on a 'touring' or 'overlanding' vehicle that needs a gas station every 300 miles is a tough pill to swallow. While the GX's twin-turbo V6 is tempting, the Land Cruiser’s hybrid setup should ideally be more efficient, but if it feels 'gutless' on the highway as some say, it loses that 'go-anywhere' confidence. Tough spot for Toyota right now
Hywelthehorrible@reddit
The same guys that complain about EV range will buy these
Mjolnir12@reddit
You can always carry extra fuel. It is harder to carry extra batteries.
Hywelthehorrible@reddit
The number of people who will actually carry extra fuel on a $90k GX?
Mjolnir12@reddit
There are a number of aftermarket gas tank solutions now. Most seem to replace the spare tire which isn’t ideal, but there does seem to be one that preserves the spare so far.
Hywelthehorrible@reddit
That sounds honestly terrible. On a $90k truck.
_galaga_@reddit
Whip out a portable solar panel, wait 30 days, drive back home, no problem! It’s also much easier to bum gas off somebody else if you’re stuck out in the field because everybody else is driving ICE vehicles. The chances of a friendly passerby with a spare can are decent. If the off-road community at large were mostly EV it’d be more straight forward to siphon some electrons from a friendly passerby to limp home.
Wetnoodle307@reddit
I owned a model 3 for years and currently have a 550. 550 is topped off in 5 minutes, significantly less than the charge time of a Tesla, and where I live with 80MPH interstate, frequent elevation change, and significant headwinds can be expected I have to stop half as much in the 550.
markyymark13@reddit
When it comes to people interested in this trucks "like me" the issue is less range and more so charging. The last thing I want to do for any my road trips be tied down to making sure my route has a working charger, let alone one that isn't going to make me wait an hour+ on the side of the highway in the middle of nowhere.
Hywelthehorrible@reddit
You might want to update your priors on charging availability and charge rates.
RollTh3Maps@reddit
And they'll point out that it's quicker to "refuel" these, so it's not a great comparison. That's accurate, but on the flip side, if I can charge at home for like 90%+ of my driving, it keeps me from having to go to a gas station so goddamn often in a shorter-range ICE vehicle.
Mjolnir12@reddit
It isn’t gutless on the highway at all. The drivetrain has a TON of torque. The land cruiser is actually faster from 30-50 than the gx550, and only .1 seconds slower from 50-70, according to car and driver. The passing performance is essentially the same. The land cruiser is slower to 60, but i think that is mostly due to the transmission and gearing differences. Honestly I wouldn’t want the land cruiser to have more power. It is a big, tall body on frame offroad suv and it doesn’t really have the handling or suspension for more power.
earlyiteration@reddit
People are really coping when they are dropping 60k-70k+ on a Toyota…
j250ex@reddit
The biggest issue is the current LC keeps being compared to the out going 200 series. And it’s just not at that size or level of refinement.
Snazzy21@reddit
The size is the least of the issues, it is the questionable pricing structure. Is it an expensive 4runner? A cheap GX? A small Sequoia TRD?
It has no unique characteristic, no roll down back window, no front locking diff, and it's not particularly capable. It has appalling ground clearance, and bad angles.
Toyota should have made it more like a Wrangler competitor, they had the fixed roof SUV game locked, they didn't another.
aprtur@reddit
The size difference between the LC200 and the new LC250 is marginal, with the 250 being larger - LC250 is 1.5" longer, but the wheelbase is the same, and the width is the same. The only interior dimension that's smaller in the 250 is shoulder room.
india2wallst@reddit
Do Lexus GX owners care about mpg ? The Land Cruiser is unobtanium in Canada without markups ("oops the person who booked this canceled but we just put 5k of dealer addons haha")
UrbanAlaska@reddit
Enough to not own a GX? No. Enough to also own a TX? Yes.
BahnMe@reddit
Did they ever fix the hood fluttering at speed issues with this GX?
g-4-ces@reddit
So I had a GX550 lux+ and had the hood flutter fix performed. It did NOT fix the issue.
Mjolnir12@reddit
How bad was the hood flutter? My land cruiser has a tiny amount at high speeds but it isn’t really anything I notice and I don’t see how it would actually cause any issues. Is it worse with the gx?
g-4-ces@reddit
I can’t compare the LC flutter. Mine was incognito. Maybe the color conveyed the sun reflection more but it was, to me, really bad as it was distracting. Any speed over 30mph. Got worse as speeds increased even if totally smooth road.
RiftHunter4@reddit
Its Land Cruiser Prado vs Land Cruiser in my eyes. The price difference is pretty big between the two where I live. Land Cruiser is ariund $70k max while the GX is closer to $90k. Not something you'd normally cross shop.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
It's a J250 vs a J252
Both are the same, and both are Landcruiser prados - just one has a Lexus badge and is more of a top trim
Like saying you wouldn't cross shop a Ranger XLT vs Raptor lol. Absurd. Of course they'd be cross shopped!!! Same vehicle just upper trim level.
RollTh3Maps@reddit
The Lexus LX would be the Land Cruiser in this scenario, not the GX.
Astramael@reddit
They’re both J250 Prados.
KrazyCroat@reddit
My favourite Lexus/Toyota products in decades and I can’t hope to afford either, probably any time soon, even used 🤙🏻🤙🏻
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
If people stay scared of the TTV6, you can probably get the GX down the line for a decent price. However, if the engine goes boom boom, then you're in for a bad time.
KrazyCroat@reddit
They hold their value so crazy well, that I think it could take a decade or more. Hell, my 12 year old WAGmobile Audi was still $16k CAD when I bought it.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
The V35A engine is scaring a lot of Toyota faithful. You can look at used prices for 2021 and prior Tundras and low mileage examples are selling at nearly new prices. Until Toyota solves the engine issues, I think this generation won't hold the value as well.
yobo9193@reddit
A 15 minute google search would show you that used GX550 buyers don’t give a shit about the potential issues.
Those people aren’t the same as Tundra buyers
g-4-ces@reddit
The used GX550s aren’t selling. I had mine for 11 months before I said no mas to all the issues and sold it. The dealer I sold it too couldn’t sell it for 3k below MSRP for three months. Then it popped up on another used car dealer site for more than MSRP. So it traded below MSRP to another dealer and now is sitting another three months later.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
Well aware that plenty of buyers don't give a shit about these problems. Another google search would show people discussing engine problems in the GX
KrazyCroat@reddit
Oh yeah that makes sense. Sorry I just noticed your flair, are you worried about the one in your Tundra? Warranty should cover you for a while I guess.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
I got the extended warranty, so I am likely dumping it after that expires at 125k miles. Hybrids fail less and failures decrease by model year, but it's still a shitty lottery to be involved in.
KrazyCroat@reddit
Fair enough, hope she lasts you well until then at least!
pokerawz@reddit
GX550 looks much better, has a better interior/NVH, and a TTV6. If I’m getting a body-on-frame SUV the marginal difference between MPG isn’t going to bother me. The Toyota also has a raised cargo area which is annoying.
yobo9193@reddit
20 MPG on regular fuel vs 15 MPG on premium is not a “marginal” difference.
(I’m aware you can probably run regular in the V35, but most people who buy these cars will just do what the manufacturer tells them)
RollTh3Maps@reddit
I thought this, too, but Toyota actually recommends premium in the Land Cruiser, for some reason.
yobo9193@reddit
Huh, TIL
RollTh3Maps@reddit
Yeah, but from what I can tell, the same drivetrain doesn’t get the same requirement for the 4Runner/Tacoma. Toyota isn’t really consistent in their fuel octane requirements.
Mjolnir12@reddit
I saw a claim somewhere (unconfirmed) that they specify premium in the land cruiser because it has a “higher reputation for reliability” and they feel using premium in it will result in the lowest probability of having any issues.
RollTh3Maps@reddit
After making this comment, I read a bit more, and I guess there's a dyno-confirmed 20 hp boost on these engines with premium, since it's likely detuning itself to avoid knock. Toyota probably wants that extra power for the more premium model and figures someone who buys a Land Cruiser will be more agreeable to the higher fuel cost.
Astramael@reddit
But the Lexus has the V35A, which means you shouldn’t buy it. That was easy.
bazbloom@reddit
Agreed. Toyota has done nothing (publicly) to inspire confidence in the drivetrain. "We'll replace the engine if..." just doesn't ring as a solid selling point.
Maybe they should talk to Nissan about how to build reliable turbo sixes.
Mjolnir12@reddit
Yeah, “they will fix it under warranty” is cold comfort if my engine experiences catastrophic failure in the middle of nowhere. A land cruiser prado that doesn’t have extreme drivetrain reliability basically goes against the whole purpose of the vehicle.
Whispercry@reddit
Marginal? It’s a 33% improvement in MPG.
pokerawz@reddit
If you’re cross-shopping a GX550 and a Land Cruiser, fuel economy probably shouldn’t be the deciding factor, especially if you’re planning to lift it and run bigger tires, which will wipe out most of that MPG difference anyway. If fuel efficiency is a priority, something like a RAV4 Hybrid makes a lot more sense.
Mjolnir12@reddit
It doesn’t wipe out that difference though, since both will have a decrease in mpg if you lift them.
Also just because someone spends $70,000-$80,000 on a vehicle doesn’t mean they don’t care about operating costs. Also a rav4 is way worse offroad. I don’t suggest anyone buy either of these vehicles for purely onroad use. They are too compromised in the name of offroad performance.
pokerawz@reddit
It’s heavily buyer-dependent. Some people care about MPG, some don’t. Personally, if I’m shopping something like this, fuel economy isn’t moving the needle. Same way I wouldn’t care about MPG when buying a performance car.
Also you’d be surprised how many more Rav-4’s I see on the trails vs GX550 & LC’s, they’re very capable!
Mjolnir12@reddit
I think we have a different idea of what “trails” are. Yes, a rav4 can do gravel roads and basic forest service roads easily. However, if you try to take it on anything more than a 2/10 rated trail it will start to have issues and possibly experience damage. In national parks it wouldn’t even be allowed on a high clearance 4wd required road since it doesn’t even have 4wd.
pokerawz@reddit
I’ve seen Rav’s & Crosstreks on 3/10 trails, as I live next to a few of them in SoCal - just 3 weeks I saw a bone stock Honda Passport on a 3/10 trail and it performed really well. We also have a Crosstrek in our OHV meetup facebook group.
What you won’t see are brand new GX’s on any of those trails, unless they’re sponsored.
Mjolnir12@reddit
You can do trails on those vehicles until you suddenly can’t and that is when it becomes a problem. I would rather have a lot of overhead when offroading so I know I am not approaching the capability of my vehicle so I have a lower chance of getting stuck or damaging my vehicle. Every person has a different risk tolerance. Also trail difficulties can vary widely for the same trail depending on season, and you don’t always know until it is too late. Rain can wash out trails and make them significantly more technical, so it is good to not be pushing your vehicle to the limit. Most of the vehicles you mentioned don’t even have full size spare tires which is an automatic disqualified for me.
Ok-Hunt-128@reddit
over 250,000 miles that can be like a $15-17k difference in running costs depending on price of gas over that time though...
andrewjaekim@reddit
It’s also much larger in practical terms as well.
The fuel savings from 10 to 20 mpg is a larger fuel saving than 20 to 100mpg.
Going from 15 to 20 is a MASSIVE difference.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
originally started this way but think I'm the opposite now, 20 vs. 15 is huge especially in this economy + if you're actually taking it off-road then the front overhang on the gx due to ekdss is a bit stupid (they did adjust the '25 ride height a bit) + the ttv6 was recalled while the hybrid has been rock solid so not like you're getting some big engine reliability
+ its impossible to spec a lexus & impossible to find a overtrail+ in nori green w/ the light seeds & optioned ML, impossible to find it even without the ml, whats the point of getting a "luxury" car if you cant option the nice sound system
dootytootybooty@reddit
At $5/gal it’s $1,250 at 15,000 miles. That’s not really that big of a deal when you’re comparing $70,000+ vehicles.
Mjolnir12@reddit
On the other hand, what do you gain for the increased fuel costs? A smoother engine and a bit more power. To me, that wasn’t worth the increase in fuel costs. The fact that I was already spending a lot on an SUV doesn’t mean I cease to do any sort of cost benefit analysis.
Same_Lack_1775@reddit
I always like when people claim you’re buying an expensive vehicle so shouldn’t care about ongoing operating costs.
dootytootybooty@reddit
I mean weee not talking about deprecation, service costs, or other ownership costs. We’re just talking about fuel costs on $70k+ SUV’s. It shouldn’t be a large deciding factor for either.
My Bronco used to get about 16-17MPG, I didn’t really care because I knew what I was getting into with it.
willpc14@reddit
It routinely feels like those comments come from people who were never considering buying those vehicles in the first place (I'm aware the OP you replied to has a Bronco, so it may not be super applicable in this case)
hi_im_bored13@reddit
& thats 1.25k/yr if you're the average american, & its not like GX's & LCs are lease machines. over 5-10yrs thats a pretty big delta
Same_Lack_1775@reddit
I agree it’s ridiculous not to be able to get the ML in the OT+…but on the upside most reviews of the ML Gl have claimed it is mediocre. I’m not sure if this is due to unrealistic expectations on the reviewer or Lexus/ml cheaper out on it bc I generally find the ML in my wife’s 2022 RX (previous generation) to be very good.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It's mediocre but now imagine how mediocre the base audio is... (very). they've been cheaping out for a while now, the new rx sounds worse too, the LX placement is wack so it just sound like it has phase issues all the time, the 460 was far better
& its like its a BoF car platform sharing w/ a cheaper toyota w/ pano glass & a/t tire noise so whatever it gets a bit of a pass but they themselves have done better
Mjolnir12@reddit
The weird thing is that most of the land cruisers seem to come with the premium package, which comes with the upgraded JBL system which is better than the base system in the gx550. I haven’t heard the ML system but the JBL system is good enough for me (and I am a speaker snob). Lexus positions the gx550 as a luxury product and then does weird spec decisions like this that make it less luxurious than a toyota branded product in some ways.
Mjolnir12@reddit
Also while the hybrid deivetrain is rougher because 4 cylinder, it has super immediate torque which is nice especially at high elevation where the turbo lag is worse. I am usually an engine smoothness snob (my daily driver has a B58), but i don’t really mind the roughness in this case.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I like the hybrid more than the 6cyl tbh granted it's a fair bit of urban driving for me but the mild hybrid is very refined. people say it's agricultural, I never thought it was that bad
I wouldn't get one w/o the hybrid drive though e.x. base 4runner
RollTh3Maps@reddit
At first, I thought the fuel cost difference would be bigger since I didn't know they recommended 91 octane in the Land Cruiser, too. Kind of weird since it isn't required/recommended for the same engine in the Tacoma and the 4Runner.
pokerawz@reddit
They’re kind of all over the place with those recommendations. I think specifically for the LC200 vs LX570, for the 3UR-FE, they recommend premium for the Lexus but not the Toyota.
BZJGTO@reddit
They've always been all over the place, the 100 series is same way. Some will recommend it, some require it, but all are the exact same 2UZ (ignoring later ones have VVTi, which doesn't change fuel requirements anyways).
73629265@reddit
In vacuum, I'd agree. But when you factor in the price? in Canada, you're looking at an extra $15,000 for the Overtrail and $30,000 for the Overtrail+. Thats an entirely different subset of buyer.
pokerawz@reddit
For sure, I’m saying in a vacuum. Especially since Lexus dealers are still charging exorbitant markups and dealer add-ons.
As someone who has unseriously cross-shopped both, I’d probably aim for a LX570 or GX460… but that’s cuz I want a V8.
Hywelthehorrible@reddit
Gotta disagree. The overtrail looks better. The other trims look strange and barely differentiated. And if you’re not buying one to do Colorado mountain lifestyle it’s gluttonous to drive a 15 mpg vehicle around, in my opinion.
ucancallmevicky@reddit
the corresponding Lexus, when buying new or CPO, is Always worth it over the Toyota. I offer this personal anecdote as evidence
I bought a GX460 CPO, my brother a Landcruiser new. During own ownership period (I still own mine) we had a very similar issue. Rattle causing irritating noise. The local Lexus dealer took mine, gave me a loaner and spent and entire day of hours going through everything to solve the issue. The Toyota dealer, took it in once, told him it was fixed it wasn't. Took again and said "we can't replicate the noise" and the third time refused to see it at all and basically said "you bought a Toyota, deal with it" and no Lexus dealer would ever say that
ethereal3xp@reddit
Why Land Cruiser vs GX?
It should be vs RX350H
RX350H is better. Better MPG.
BZJGTO@reddit
They're both the 250 series Land Cruiser Prado underneath. The RX would be comparable to the Highlander.
RollTh3Maps@reddit
Probably the Crown Signia, not the Highlander.
BZJGTO@reddit
I always forget the Crown even exists. I think they're both the same platform though.
RollTh3Maps@reddit
Why would they compare BOF "rugged" SUVs to a unibody crossover?
ethereal3xp@reddit
GX has no hybrid variant. Thats a deal breaker right there.
If GX had the Hybrid variant. Would a comp make sense, unless price matters?
RollTh3Maps@reddit
So, again, you want to compare a boxy, rugged BOF SUV to a crossover, and you actually think that's a valid comparison? The GX and the Land Cruiser are built on the same platform and are essentially the same vehicle with different drivetrains and more comfort built into the GX. That's why they're being compared. Would you also wander into a Wrangler vs Bronco comparison and tell people they should ACTUALLY compare the Wrangler to the Pacifica because they have the same V6 engine?
Mjolnir12@reddit
Because the gx550 and land cruiser are almost the same vehicle and the RX350H is totally different and has a totally different use case?
cat_prophecy@reddit
Why is the range so poor? 300 miles at 20mpg would be a 15 gallon tank which is smaller than the tank in my Volvo sedan, and smaller even than the one in every other hybrid sub/x-over Toyota makes.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
If it's anything like the tank info in my Tundra, Toyota factors in a pretty big tank buffer for their estimates. My 32 gallon tank only fills up 23ish gallons when I am getting to the end of the range.
cat_prophecy@reddit
Why would they use 20% of the tank as a reserve? That doesn't seem right.
Even at 15mpg that would be 135 miles of range that you just can't use.
Stu__Pidasso@reddit
Fuel pump related nonsense from what I have read. I personally haven't looked too far into it since I get nearly 500 miles a tank, which is plenty.
Same_Lack_1775@reddit
To everyone claiming the Lexus has more NVH. This is not true per the Toyota engagement center. They indicated that both the Lexus and LC has the same nvh for all trims.
The difference is in the upper trims of the Lexus having acoustic glass where the LC does not.
AshKetchumDaJobber@reddit
Honestly just spend a bit more and get the lx/300 cruiser variant
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