Neuvirths_Glove@reddit

Funny thing about that: I bought a Subie last year and AWD wasn't even a consideration. They were straight up price comparable with FWD cars.

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patches710@reddit

You pay for the AWD with your MPG. Subaru's AWD is bomb proof because it's mechanical, but that also means it's always on and always hurting gas mileage.

My wife's Buick SUV has on demand AWD, so it doesn't parasite the MPG unless we need it, but that also means there's more shit to break. So ultimately you gotta decide what's more important, reliability or operating costs.

SnooFloofs3486@reddit

You can find a ton of side by side tests. Awd + all season tires perform better. But both work fine. Awd + all weather tires is my choice -no tire changes and 95% of winter tire performance.

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Ok-Associate-5368@reddit

You’re saying that there are scientific studies that show that AWD with all-season tires outperform FWD with snow tires? If so, please post a link. If the test is only for straight line up a hill, that’s a worthless study since nobody drives in a straight line. Snow tires have been proven over and over to outperform all-season tires for turning and braking. That’s what keeps you out of the ditch.

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SnooFloofs3486@reddit

Yeah. Back to back laps on race courses on snow and ice. In some cases it's very close to a coin toss. Some cases the 2wd is far behind. The big benefit of the AWD and all weather tire option is that you have the capability all year, not just when your winter tires are on. If you live in a climate that has snow and ice even randomly in summer season - you're good to go. No need to buy a second set of tires and wheels and swap them twice a year. And the cost difference for most cars between the awd and fwd version is usually around $1500 - about the price of a set of tires and wheels.

But it's not like you need winter tires or awd in the absolute sense. People have gotten around just fine for many decades with all season tires on fwd cars in snowy places.

https://youtu.be/a7E3GTpgvjs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRYHlb61_9Q

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Ok-Associate-5368@reddit

Those videos don’t prove jack. The first one was AWD vs RWD. As someone that grew up learning to drive RWD cars in Vermont, FWD was a game changer and was what I was arguing.

Read the comments on the 2nd video. Those are professional drivers on a prepared course. Not real world. And they didn’t test braking. The turning advantage was achieved by drifting the AWD car. Try again. You can’t produce a test that will back up your claim in real world conditions.

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SnooFloofs3486@reddit

I don't think any amount of evidence will convince you. If videos of side by side tests are not enough - I'm not sure I can help you. If you haven't drifted an awd car in snow - you're missing out on a lot of fun!

If snow tires work for you - great. Keep using them.

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Mydickisaplant@reddit

Is AWD more fun in the winter? Yes

Is AWD necessary? Hard no. Just get a set of winters.

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SnooFloofs3486@reddit

Going in the ditch has never been a problem for me with or without winter tires. It is important. But it's something I stay awake at night worrying about.

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Yeach@reddit

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1KGiVzNNW8Y&t=342s&pp=2AGzApACAQ%3D%3D

0 to 60mph at around 5:42s 11.1s (AWD all-seasons) vs 15s (FWD winters)

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Individual-Area7121@reddit

Outperforming how? The going part, isn’t nearly as important as the stopping part, and awd does absolutely nothing to help stop.

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SnooFloofs3486@reddit

Oh boy. I think we're headed for a physics lesson.

They are faster on snow covered race courses. I don't think most people agree with you that hte stopping part is the most important. It's an important part. But rarely the reason people choose awd vs fwd or snow tires vs all season tires.

And - all else equal, mechanically linked awd/4x4 stops faster than FWD or non-linked awd systems. That's a complex physics explanation. I'm happy to try to teach you. You can also verify by dozens and dozens of tests by mostly people who can see the results in the data but have no idea why.

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Sketch2029@reddit

That's an incorrect physics explanation.

Tires are the limiting factor of braking performance in nearly all cases (at least until you get up to super sticky high performance tires). Your engine can't generate as much braking force as your brakes, so which wheels are being driven is completely irrelevant to braking performance. Yes, the two together could theoretically generate slightly more braking force, but if you can lock the tires up or engage the ABS, which nearly any car is capable of (especially in the snow), you're already at the point where it doesn't matter.

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SnooFloofs3486@reddit

You just don't understand the physics.

Do you want me to teach you?

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It really depends on where you live. I live in the Denver area now and grew up in Illinois and never have owned dedicated snow tires and never personally knew anyone who did. Didn't even own a set of 3-peak rated all weathers until a few years ago.

The reality is that in Denver, when we get snow and it usually melts within a day (if not, within hours) due to the sun. In Chicago, they did a much better job at plowing and salting, so it might only be a handful of sketch days per year.

On the flip side, if you live up in the mountains or somewhere where you get consistent snowfall and the roads never fully melt, then that's a different story.

I won't argue that dedicated snow tires aren't better - it's just that for most people, they are probably unnecessary, especially if you practice smart driving - IE, when the weather is bad, drive slow, give plenty of time to brake, don't tailgate, etc. For us, spending an extra $1000+ per car for a couple days/year doesn't make sense.

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HyperionsDad@reddit

It usually melts within a day - until it doesn’t. Hopefully you don’t need to get anywhere that day, too.

The cost for proper, safe tires in a location where snow and ice happens is an easy investment for me.

First - avoiding an accident is a no brainer for me when you look at the cost for a deductible, time without your vehicle, being delayed to where you’re trying to go, and of course avoiding injury for you, your family, and other drivers.

Second - When you have two sets of tires it extends the life of both sets. They wear half as long, so if you plan on owning it for more than a couple years it’s a noon-issue.

If you live in a place that gets more than a bit of snow and doesn’t use salt, legit snow tires are great.

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caverunner17@reddit

I'm not sure where you get this idea that roads are somehow undrivable without dedicated snow tires. Snow itself isn't usually the biggest issue, it's ice. And while snow tires are slightly better than all-weather tires on ice, you really need studded tires. Which again, for a handful of snowfalls per year and maybe one or two icy condition days which last a couple of hours, it's not a huge issue to avoid that.

The vast majority of people don't have 2 sets of tires, and millions of people somehow manage to get around without an accident.

As far as extending the life of a tire - It really depends. My last 2 sets of tires I replaced due to cracks showing from dry rot, not wear (I still had probably another 10-15k miles before I had to replace them).

For the price of a new set of wheels and tires, I'll take my chances and 20 years of experience.

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HyperionsDad@reddit

Where you live, very occasional snow is just fine.

The only thing i prob should do to start from a stand still is start in 2nd, i kept slipping in first, thinking this car doesnt have that much power or maybe its about time to change them since ive gone about 5 seasons with them.

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74orangebeetle@reddit

Yeah, all depends on conditions. Clearance helps for deep snow...but can be a non factor when it's icy and a 2wd snow tire vehicle still struggles up a hill.

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Mydickisaplant@reddit

I got downvoted to shit for saying the same thing the day before yesterday. I have a WRX as a personal car and a FWD Elantra as a company vehicle (with snow tires). I live in a very snowy area in Canada.

There has not been a day in which my Elantra was not more than capable.

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IHateYork@reddit

True. But subaru+snow tires= tank mode

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abrandis@reddit

It's not just marketing hype, go ask Canadians who swear by their Subarus . Snow tires are important but they can only do so much in FWD is you get the front stuck in some ditch or uneven terrain.

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uber_poutine@reddit

Rural prairie-dweller here. Yes, you should have winter tires regardless of what you drive, but AWD + winters means that you will actually be able to get to where you need to go whether or not the snowplows have been out.

With a Subaru, as long as I can see the road, I can make it.

I have a few questions if you don’t mind:

Where do you live, how much snow falls there, and do you have AWD?

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heatseekerdj@reddit

Snow tires moreso help you stop, AWD helps you go

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BarnyardCoral@reddit

Well, tbf, Audi and Subaru introduced AWD to the masses at a time when tire tech hadn't yet caught up. They earned their image for stellar traction and that has lasted a long time in people's imaginations. It also helps that their AWD systems are more performance-oriented and people often buy their cars for that purpose.

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Ok-Office1370@reddit

And copyright. Other manufacturers would just steal Subaru's AWD, but they'd be sued.

Subaru's AWD is still superior (the viral hybrid model has a different setup, it is not the AWD system everyone raves about).

But basically: It depends. AWD is nice. Snow tires are nice. On balance. Snow tires on a front wheel drive car are inferior for acceleration and going up hills, because of weight transfer. They're great downhill and braking, which is like 98% of the problem area.

So snow tires on a FWD will be fine like 98% of the time. An AWD with all seasons is fine 98% of the time.

Only an AWD with snow tires can manage that last 2%. And I can't tell you if you need that. I can tell you to stay your ass off icy hills though.

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Nemesis_Destiny@reddit

I'm in Canada. Need is a strong word, but I don't like getting stuck, so I'll call it a need, at least for half the year.

I agree about the snow tires though.

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fredinNH@reddit

The problem with snow tires is you have to drive on garbage tires all winter so you can stop more quickly maybe 5-10 times a year depending on where you live and how much you have to drive.

Thats why people go for awd. It’s better than fwd or rwd without snow tires.

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Thunderb1rd02@reddit

Not with my experience. All my AWD vehicles are far better than any 2WD with snow tires.

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WhackDanielz@reddit

This is the correct take. Group B, specifically Audi, did a lot of things to the consumer automotive market, but the single largest thing was convincing Joe Public they needed AWD more than they needed good tires. The S1 Quattro ran so front biased, AWD on demand, transportation appliances could walk.

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gravelpi@reddit

Of what I've driven: FWD+AllSeason < AWD+AllSeason < FWD+Snow < AWD+Snow.

gravelpi@reddit

Oops, I meant the 4.0L straight-six meant no weight in back. I used 4L a few times on steep trails, but never on roads.

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seaofboobs9434@reddit

Yeah nobody needs it but the elderly

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ReignyRainyReign@reddit

Awd with snow tires is still significantly better than fwd with snow tires. I used to think fwd was fine until I got my first awd car and suddenly didn’t haven’t issues getting up icy snow covered hills.

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Terrh@reddit

it depends on the quality of the tires.

In the absolute worst conditions, if both cars have really good tires, sure, AWD will still have a big edge - but the other 99.9% of the time, especially if you live somewhere flat, AWD doesn't help much.

But I'd take an FWD car with the best snow tires over an AWD car with midrange/old/low end snow tires, any day of the week.

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UncleToyBox@reddit

Exactly this.
AWD can help with acceleration and maybe a little with cornering if you've been trained how to take advantage of it.
Meanwhile, the rubber compounds in rubber tires provide improved stopping and cornering in any freezing conditions, even if the road is dry, because they stay softer at colder temps.

For Ohio, winter tires are better than AWD in almost every situation.

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TheGT1030MasterRace@reddit

Torque vectoring like Acura SH-AWD dramatically improves cornering, stand on the accelerator around a corner and it just rotates.

FWD and Cross Climates are sufficient for 90% of urban/suburban driving.

Steep hills, deep unplowed areas, true ice, and any kind of performance expectations are the other 10%

I just drive a little Chevy Spark back and forth to work in Canada and I got stuck and had to shovel 1 time last winter in the middle of thr street in front of my house.

Good studded winter tires. Even without studs its still pretty good. Only down side is winter tires are loud in the highway.

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breadexpert69@reddit

Depends where you plan to drive

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Goldeneagle41@reddit

I lived in Maine. Had a front wheel drive and never had any issues. I think it can be a nice feature but I have seen way too many people get overly obsessed with this.

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snipsuper415@reddit

In my experience, not really, unless you need to go up any kind of hill. I used to drive a Subaru BRZ in upstairs NY. While i was able to get by driving my RWD sports car by slapping on snow tires / ice tires. Trying to get traction on any uphill grade was pretty rough if ice has formed.

While i think i could have easily gotten away with FWD with proper snow tires / ice tires. The most important thing to do is have dedicated tires for the winter time. A saying i heard a lot living in NY for a short while was "not all cars have AWD but every car has all wheel breaks"...which was really meant to imply do not only change the tires of your drive wheels only....

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Melodic-Picture48@reddit

If you got a CRV then AWD is running all the time and only activates the rear when theres wheel slip. I got a 2010 CRV and its great in the winter, two winters and blizzards no problem.

Gonna get an extra set of wheels to keep snow tires on them because I drive alot in all kinds of weather.

winter/snow tires are much more useful than awd

all-season are nothing like snow tires, watch some youtube reviews of braking distances

If you have a place for storage then consider getting a set of rims and tires. In storage you put them on a shelf or wooden pallet and maybe wrap in plastic or buy tire storage bags. You can change them yourself easily enough in an afternoon between winter and summer if you leave the tires on the rims.

Your car already has the optimal all around width tire at 225mm. 205 is better for digging out, but 225 is better for braking, and anything wider raises the chances of sliding on water or hydroplaning.

In some vehicle models AWD is worse than FWD due to the poor implementation and logic of the AWD system.

Some vehicles like the CX-30 do better at AWD with highway tires than SUV advertised as offroad/awd rugged. My favorite is Sarah-N-Tuned taking one up a hill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpQeelqe2Rw&t=6s

And there are PLENTY of videos of Stellantis/Dodge AWD failures. The systems crap out, overheat with barely any use. Toyotas AWD system while reliable barely does anything, on some of their models its useless. Subaru tried to save money and their new AWD is worse than their old system.

On this car, the AWD light indicates a malfunction. On this car, it's on more often than not. Not sure where you are getting your info about this car, but I checked for it specifically.

If one tire is constantly spinning out, AWD is going to stop power to that tire, that is SIMILAR to what ABS is doing. I literally said "like ABS does to stop." Why are you splitting hairs on what system is doing the work? AWD/TC/ABS are all on the vehicle and the manufacturer is going to program it all to work together to result is traction when it is lost as a feature.

Your last point, on this car the AWD light would stay on indicating AWD is having an issue which is it is not working.

Didn't know we were talking about every single AWD system here, and incorrectly from one to another, and ignoring how this one works, so whatever.

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Colorful_Monk_3467@reddit

I used to own a Haldex Volvo - I'm familiar with how these systems work. But many (probably most) of them are proactive - i.e. not just slip and grip. AWD is activated preemptively at low speeds, when the wheel is turned on, at lower ambient temps, when the wipers are used, etc.

Dashboard lights are commonly referred to as idiot lights for a reason. They only provide the most basic information and if they were illuminated constantly, the "idiots" would think there was a problem with the car.

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WordWithinTheWord@reddit

Reddit is just contrarian, it’s no deeper than that. AWD is all the rage these days and Reddit takes issue to that.

I remember when CD drives were being phased out from laptops and Tech Reddit was acting like it was the end of personal computing.

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WonderfulMistake7976@reddit

It’s so weird. I went around and around with people yesterday when I tried to point out how much of a hassle it is for most people to swap out their tires twice a year. No matter how many times I tried to explain that I agree snow tires are better, they are just too much of a hassle for most people and they’d rather get AWD, these people just wouldn’t drop it. They simply couldn’t understand that most people aren’t min-maxing every aspect of their lives and would rather do something easier that’s good enough. They act like driving on all seasons is guaranteed to end up with you in a ditch.

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jolsiphur@reddit

The problem is that all-season tires (specifically if they aren't rated for snow) are going to have absolutely god awful traction in snowy conditions. So much so that it's just an accident waiting to happen. Sure it's not a guarantee, but I also live somewhere snowy and I can absolutely tell when someone has proper tires vs not on the road.

Honestly it's not even a big hassle to swap your tires out seasonally. It's a completely normal routine where I live. You either pay someone to do it twice a year, or you make sure both sets of tires are on rims and do it yourself. I just swapped out my tires this weekend. Took me less than an hour to do in my driveway with just a tire iron, a small pump jack, and a torque wrench.

If you really can't be arsed to change your tires for the safety of yourself and others on the road, just get cross-climates (or any other comparable 3-peak rated tire) and leave it at that, but going through snowy areas with just regular all-season tires is legitimately dangerous, but like everything dangerous, it'll be fine until it isn't.

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motorwerkx@reddit

I live in a snowy area and a good set of all season tires will get you around just fine, especially with awd. I'm not talking mountain passes, but if you live in a city, they're fine. Granted I've only been driving for 30 years so like you said it'll be fine until it isn't. I'm sure my day is coming 😂

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Fit-Tomatillo1585@reddit

Where are us normal ppl supposed to keep our extra 4 tires and rims at ?

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jolsiphur@reddit

Basement, shed, garage, balcony, closet... Wherever there's space. I keep mine in my basement, when I lived in an apartment I kept them on the balcony.

Where I live, any reputable tire shop also offers storage.

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Akjn435@reddit

People in snowy climates just have to accept that swapping on snow tires is part of the responsibility of driving in the winter. Just like renewing your registration or license is a pain, it has to be done. There should be no debate on awd vs snow tires. Every car should have snow tires by default. Then you can debate whether the complexity and cost of awd is worth it for you.

All-weather tires can be passable for someone who can stay home when it is super icy or super snowy. Anyone who has to drive every day no matter the conditions should have snow tires no matter what.

Many winter accidents could be prevented if people have good winter tires instead of worn winter tires or all seasons. Obviously driving on all seasons won't guarantee you to be in an accident. But what matters is the rates of accidents. A city with more snow tires is a much safer city. Awd doesn't do much for accident prevention compared to snow tires.

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WordWithinTheWord@reddit

It’s not though. I’ve lived in Minnesota and North Dakota my whole life and only ran all-seasons and AWD.

All seasons from a good brand (ex Michelin CrossClimate2) will be perfectly fine for any reasonable driving situation.

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Akjn435@reddit

I live in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. I run winter tires on my awd cars from October/November to April/May. My personal experience is that I see cars in accidents every year because they don't have sufficient tires. My experience is that reasonable driving can be deep snow for a day or two at a time, packed snow for months, slippery iced up snow at intersections for many days at a time, icy conditions for multiple days at a time. Your anecdotal experience does not exactly trump my anecdotal experience.

What trumps both of our experiences is the absolute fact that good winter tires will have better tire traction and thus better stopping power than any all season or any all weather tire, no matter if you're on awd or rwd.

Also consider that your rural experience may not be representative of city driving. In cities you get traffic and icy intersections. A lack of snow tires causes accidents. Rural you may only care about not getting stuck since there's less people to help you and there's nobody out there to slide into or make unpredictable movements; a lack of traffic means the roads and intersections don't get as slippery. You may also be overestimating how fast plows get to the roads and how many of the roads are paved to bare road vs a 5 cm surface. I'd personally much rather have snow tires and rwd than awd without snow tires.

Another thing to consider is that AWD gives people the confidence to drive faster because they don't notice how slippery it is. Then they don't stop as easily as they expected because they are on all seasons. Meanwhile yes, fwd cars with snow tires may sometimes struggle to get traction to accelerate compared to awd with all seasons, but they stop on a dime in comparison to your awd vehicle and the drivers expect it to be slippery because they can't accelerate easily. And I'm always gonna say it's much more important to stop than to go.

And I did give some credit to all-weather tires (there is a pretty big difference between all weathers and all seasons), like your cross climate 2s (which are all weather not all season), some people can get by with them if their area is actually plowed quickly and they don't have to drive to work in poor weather conditions. But Edmonton doesn't shut down for snow or ice. I'd much rather have snow tires if I have to drive when there is snow and ice on the roads.

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WordWithinTheWord@reddit

Winter tires are definitely better than all-seasons. Nobody’s denying that. But unless you commute in the mountains or live somewhere that gets extreme snowfall totals with little to no plow service, it’s not a need.

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Yees - this just reminded me how everyone was going g bonkers over Apple removing the headphone jack

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Anachronism--@reddit

Anyone who has driven fwd and Awd back to back in slippery conditions would know it’s a night and day difference. I got my fwd car stuck on wet grass in my backyard. My wife’s awd car didn’t even slip.

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TheCamoTrooper@reddit

I just the other week backed my FWD Honda sedan out of mud that was up to the rocker panels, imma be honest it might be a you issue if you're getting stuck in wet grass

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MagnusAlbusPater@reddit

I’m anti-AWD just because I live in a place it never snows and the roads never freeze. For those in snowy climate it can make sense.

Exactly. Why not both? Keep in mind that, for 95% of drivers, their cars are appliances and they do not care about any performance benefits. Also, a lot of people like the option of AWD without the hassle of having to buy and store a 2nd set of tires. If you can do both, well, that just seems like a winning proposition.

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RaisinTheRedline@reddit

Exactly. Why not both?

Because AWD costs money.

Choosing AWD over FWD increases the cost of my car by ~$2k, and then you have added a driveshaft, axle shafts and a rear diff that are all additional points of potential failure and will require additional maintenance in the long run.

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BarnyardCoral@reddit

I would suggest reading the rest of my comment and then you'd find your comment to be quite unnecessary.

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ComeOnBoys_@reddit

Just depends what kind of awd car. Subaru and Audi? Sure thing. Toyota, Honda and other brands that claim to be awd? Doesn’t help much. Subaru and Audi are awd all the time.

Brands like Toyota Honda cars like the rav4, crv have awd assist which have sensors that are supposed to detect when losing traction that kick some power to the back wheels. These suck ass and are a marketing gimmick. The whole point is to not lose traction in the first place and they usually only distribute and small amount of power to the back wheels after you have slipped.

Even then, most people don’t need awd. RAV4 and crv are still great cars but the way they market their awd is almost criminal. Go drive a Subaru in the snow then go drive a rav4 in the snow. It’s a very obvious difference. I also hate Subarus because of the cvt and weak engine so I have no skin in the game. I’d personally get a 4WD suv and truck. AWD is great, 4WD is king.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

The issue with AWD is that people think it makes their car safer.

It doesn't.

AWD cars accelerate better than FWD and RWD cars in slick conditions. They DO NOT stop better. Being able to stop is what saves lives, and only tires can improve your stopping capability.

It depends on where you live and drive.

In NE Ohio, unless you live or work in a hilly area, probably not. Winter tires and good driving skills are probably sufficient 90% of the time and you should just stay home the other 10%.

AWD is useful when there are significant slopes to deal with in your typical drives. Additionally, AWD adds incalculable value in the western US and Canada, where traction laws in the mountains often require the use of chains if you don’t have 4WD or AWD.

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OnlyCommentWhenTipsy@reddit

Stopping is more important and all cars already come with all wheel braking.

I live in northwestern Ontario and none of my cars currently or ever have had AWD and don't have any issues and I'm often in the roads during major snow storms to respond to calls. The most important thing is good winter tires

However, if you can get AWD it is a good thing to have and a nice feature for the select few times/scenarios where it's useful it's just you shouldn't feel you need it or not purchase a vehicle you like solely because it's not AWD. Like any other car package upgrade, it's a nice extra that is handy to have over not having it during the odd time it's applicable

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Flash-635@reddit

I've got an X-Trail, I can choose front wheel drive, AWD or 4WD.

I don't drive in the snow but we do get heavy rain. I always select either AWD or 4WD when it rains and it does make a difference.

Posi lock is good too.

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Illustrious_Dig9644@reddit

I totally get where you're coming from. In Ohio, people overhype AWD, but the truth is it only helps you startmoving, not stop or turn. I drove a FWD sedan in the snow for years just fine.

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roosterjack77@reddit

Snow tires. Leave early. Slow down. These all function the same way as AWD in places that are flat, cold, and snowy.

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Absentmindedgenius@reddit

When I was living in snowville, I had rwd and fwd. Rwd was totally unacceptable, but fwd was fine. ABS is nice too.

This whole thread is a psyop, anyone who has actually had to drive in bad conditions knows it's worth it.

For snow? No

For mud, yes

Umm after a litte search…

“AWD Light: A constantly illuminated AWD light, or a blinking one, indicates a malfunction or that the system has overheated and disengaged, often due to needing rear differential fluid.”

Is this true on the 2014 crv?

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mechshark@reddit

For snow it’s very nice

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Silent-Contract-1790@reddit

Yes

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AdaptationCreation@reddit

This question depends on what AWD setup we are talking about. Subaru's AWD system with torque vectoring is worth it. The same for the AWD system in the Pilot and Ridgeline (and some Acuras) called iVTM(4) which also has torque vectoring. Basic AWD systems that only work once there is some slip aren't as great. This is what's found in the CR-V for example. Not a fan and not worth the extra money.

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AWD is great but nothing compares to 4WD in my experience

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Binford6100User@reddit

Agreed here. It's not that you NEED it, it's that you WANT it. IMO, it's a strong enough want that I won't own a vehicle without it, because the benefits aren't just in the snow, but also in the rain, or occasional off pavement use (parking in a field at a festival in the rain, or similar shenanigans). The additional cost of ownership is a very small penalty when compared to the upside use cases.

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TiredLance@reddit

It depends on the manufacturer. "AWD" apparently has a very broad definition, ranging from "its actually only in demand" (honda and most US non-trucks) to "full time awd" like Subaru. Jokes aside, i have an outback turbo and when we got that 18 or so inches here in NC this year the car handled like a dream out here in the unplowed roads. There's a reason they're so popular amongst the hiking/ exploring communities.

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Substantial_Art_3278@reddit

For winter driving: Awd on a front wheel drive>front wheel drive only>four wheel drive on rear wheel drive>rear wheel drive.

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jontss@reddit

I've gotten AWD cars and SUVs stuck in the snow even with good snows so I'd still say yes.

Takes about 2 ft of snow, though.

Even if everything you said here is true (which it isn't), that still would not improve braking performance.

Road car braking performance is 100% limited by tire traction. Putting bigger brakes on a street car will not make is stop faster. Putting slotted and drilled rotors will not make it stop faster (though it will be able to avoid overheating the brakes for longer, which isn't ever a factor for street driving).

The only way you can improve braking performance of a street car is by increasing tire grip (usually wider tires or a stickier compound) or by reducing the mass of the car.

AWD cannot do either of those things. Unless you can admit that, you have no credibility.

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Binford6100User@reddit

If an AWD equipped vehicle doesn't decelerate faster than a FWD car, then why does an AWD accelerate faster than a FWD?

If tire grip is the ultimate measure of how much power can be put to the ground (which it is), then why is it different in one direction than the other? What changes when you decelerate that suddenly negates the advantage of linking the wheels togethor?

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

AWD accelerates better because AWD has 4 wheels putting power to the ground when accelerating instead of only 2.

When stopping, all cars have 4 wheels applying braking force to the road.

By what mechanism does AWD increase the grip of a tire when braking?

It doesn't, and that's not the point.

If all 4 wheels have brakes acting on them, how does linking those wheels through an axle improve the grip of the tires?

It doesn't improve grip at the tires, it improves the brake balance between axles for the situation at hand.

Balance is typically set for dry pavement. You're working on the assumption that braking is always maximized for a given pedal pressure. When in reality that's not the case. Should the front slip and the rears have grip, the mechanical system that links them will apply that force where it can be applied. This assumes that the rears have some left to give when the fronts give out, or vice-versa.

In less than ideal grip situations such as snow/ice/slush/wet grass/mud/etc. the ability to apply LESS brake to all locations and not have one wheel lock adds to overall stability instead of reducing it. With modern multi-channel ABS systems, this is less of an advantage, but it doesn't mean it's zero.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

I'm glad you managed to engage honestly.

The problem with your analysis is that you assume that the braking system is completely "dumb" and doesn't react to the factors that you bring up. But that hasn't been the case for around 30 years.

Whether the axles are linked by an AWD system doesn't impact brake balance, because the car's ABS system independently controls all four brakes and makes the adjustments to each wheel based on its rotation speed versus the others. There is a complete computer system in the car dedicated just to monitoring individual wheel speed and adjusting the braking force. There is no place for the AWD system to act in this environment, because the brakes are already applying the full stopping power that the tires can accept.

Now, if you were only engine braking, then I acknowledge that a fulltime AWD (like Subaru uses), could conceivably be able to slow the car with less possibility of wheel slippage. But that is the most extreme of edge cases I can imagine, especially since there are very few (if any cars) that can overcome their tires' grip while engine braking.

The reason that AWD can't stop better than 2 wheel drive is that the system that powers the wheels is independent and subservient to the system that brakes the wheels. This is even setting aside the fact that an AWD car is necessarily heavier than a 2 wheel drive car, and therefore will inevitably have worse braking performance.

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LakeEffect_CarHunter@reddit

No.

You talk about AWD very generically.. Saying the car needs to be slipping or your foot needs to be on the gas for the AWD to be engaged.

That is the case with most AWD systems.. But as I said.. It's not the case with Subaru.. That's why they are best in the snow.. Their AWD is always engaged.. Always on.. Doesn't need slip to grip.. all 4 wheels turn on a Subaru unless there's slipping and it'll stop the slipping wheel.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

Translation: You can't admit that AWD does nothing for braking performance.

BTW, I know how Subaru's AWD works. I didn't say that AWD is only engaged when on the accelerator, I said that AWD only behaves differently from FWD and RWD when on the gas. I think it's pretty clear and easy to understand that a system that sends drive power to the wheels doesn't send drive power to the wheels when no drive power is being created.

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LakeEffect_CarHunter@reddit

I didn't say anything about braking..

..But the Subarus having all 4 wheels engaged naturally at all times slows the car quicker (this is why mpg suffers) but the car requires less braking overall.

So a Subaru vs a fwd car is better at braking actually.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

HOW is the Subaru better at braking? What mechanism of the AWD system increases the tire's grip and stops it from slipping when the brakes are applied?

You won't be able to answer that question because what you're imagining is comically impossible.

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thrwaway75132@reddit

In the snow the extra mass of an axle and differential down low directly over the rear tires helps.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

Extra mass ALWAYS increases braking distance. If having extra weight increased grip, then race cars would be made out of lead instead of carbon fiber.

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thrwaway75132@reddit

So you drive a lot of race cars in the snow?

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

You're conflating some different factors here.

Increased mass can help a car feel more stable when driving in deep, drifting snow or in slush. More mass means more inertia, which lets you plow through obstructions like that. Increasing the weight (downward force) on an axle can also give it more grip in snow as you can then dig through the softer snow and reach the solid ground beneath. This is an increase in ground pressure, which is a measure of the downward force on a tire divided by it's area (contact patch).

However, more mass means more inertia, which means that when you want to stop, your tires have to work harder to shed off your increased energy. While the increased weight on the tire helps improve grip, it also greatly increases the amount of work the tire must do, which causes stopping distance to greatly increase as vehicle mass increases.

The advantage of greater ground pressure can be achieved by reducing the contact patch of the tire instead of increasing the weight on it. That is, you can mount narrower tires while keeping your vehicle weight and mass unchanged. This way you can achieve greater ground pressure without suffering the negative consequences of increased mass, though you will suffer a decrease in maximum grip.

This is why car tires have grooves and ridges. They create localized areas of high ground pressure that cut through standing water or slush and snow on the surface and let the tire grip the road beneath. Race cars on dry tracks will run slick tires in order to maximize contact patch and grip.

But no one ever adds mass to increase grip. Because increased mass reduces braking performance (and acceleration and lateral grip).

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thrwaway75132@reddit

People who drive truck add sand or fill their bed with snow every winter to add traction.

Have you ever actually lived someplace that gets snow that stays on the ground for months?

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

This is exactly what I was hoping you'd bring up, because it proves you don't understand traction.

Adding weight to the bed of a pickup is an old fashioned solution to the problem of pickup truck's terrible weight distribution. It does increase their stability and helps them get going from a stop in slippery conditions, but it does not help them stop any better.

Once again, if being very heavy improved stopping power, then freight trains would stop on a dime and race cars would be made to be as heavy as possible.

If increased mass helped, then why does a Mazda Miata stop in less than 120 feet, but a Ford F-350 takes more than 170? Why do braking distances increase when a truck is fully loaded with 3/4 of a ton of shingles in the bed?

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thrwaway75132@reddit

Getting started, and staying on the road (not fishtailing into a 180), are equally as important as stopping.

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npaladin2000@reddit

Depends on what you're doing, but if you ever take on hills when it's snowy then it's very useful to put some of the traction on the back wheels (I have a steep driveway and end up using it all the time).

These days it's honestly not a big price premium or crimp on mileage, though it does impact wear and tear, and means there's extra parts to break and replace.

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lazygerm@reddit

The first time I noticed the AWD in my Subaru wasn't in a snowstorm.

It was in a heavy rainstorm as I was driving to work. The car's back end stayed in track as I was going up and down hills and around corners.

The only real difference I see between AWD and the manual 4WD with locking hubs I had is the ground clearance of that SUV versus my present car.

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ImamTrump@reddit

Nowadays it’s bare minimum tbh. These kick in when needed and they do help.

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dumpin-on-time@reddit

awd is more fun and nice to have but not really necessary in most cases

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jetsetter2828@reddit

Yes and decent tires

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seanpvb@reddit

AWD doesn't help you stop or increase traction while turning.

Sure, the extra drive on the rear wheels can/will help when on hills or you don't have good contact with both front wheels.

A FWD vehicle with snow tires is safer than an AWD vehicle with all seasons.

I've been in Colorado for 15 years and have plenty of friends who have lived here their entire life and have only ever driven FWD cars with snow tires and they drive to the mountains weekly to bike/hike/ski/snowboard.

If you skip AWD, run snow tires in the winter and you'll be better off than most anyone in an AWD vehicle because they rarely run snowtires.

I moved to Colorado from Michigan and had never owned an AWD car until I bought a pickup truck and never had issues in either place. In fact ive passed MANY AWD SUVs on my way up i70 in my fwd car with snow tires watching them spin and spin with their all seasons.

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KYLEquestionmark@reddit

awd > fwd. fwd w snow tires > awd no snow tires. awd w snow tires > fwd w snow tires

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CommanderCorrigan@reddit

Nice to have in the winter but good tires will still do 90% of the job with lower maintenance costs.

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Ciggytardust1@reddit

Currently driving a 2023 BRZ as a daily and I put Blizzaks on it which work extremely well. I even drive with the traction control off because it’s easier to predict the handling. It’s light and RWD so the snow tires are an absolute necessity. In my experience, I haven’t had any issues. My previous daily was a VW R32 Mk. 4 which is AWD and I only ran all-seasons on that which worked really well, too. Basically, you can get away with FWD or RWD with really good snow tires but the AWD does make a difference. I would not be happy with all-season tires on the BRZ.

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do-not-freeze@reddit

I have the same generation CR-V, it's actually a traction/stability light (looks like a car with two S curves under it) that comes on if you spin the wheels or skid sideways. There's no indication for the AWD activating which probably happens way more often than you realize. This light only comes on if still manage to lose traction despite the AWD.

There's also an "AWD" light that only comes on if the AWD system overheats or malfunctions, which you should definitely get checked out if that's what they're seeing.

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Leverkaas2516@reddit

The question "is it worth it" requires a statement of what you had to give up. What did you give up to get AWD?

When I replaced my old first-gen CR-V with an Outback, I'm not sure if there was a front-wheel drive utility vehicle that had the ground clearance I wanted.

Even if I only use the AWD for 30 seconds in a one-hour drive, if that's the 30 seconds that allows me to get where I want to go, I consider it worth having.

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AuburnSpeedster@reddit

If you have to climb an inclined snow covered hill in winter? it's pretty much required. Otherwise, you can get away with a decent set of snow tires.

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DavidinCT@reddit

decent tires with all AWD really helps in the snow.

I drive a Lexus LS460, I have had a few of them. I normally get the RWD as 98% of the year is no snow. It does, OK, in the snow.... I know my limits. One of my cars I got was a AWD LS460, and the truth, that car stuck the road better than the AWD one...

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throwawayyourfun@reddit

AWD is, if you actually get into situations that need it. 90% of the time, no. It helps in snow far more than it lights up and tells you it's working.

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popejubal@reddit

I don’t spend too much time on snowy roads, but I do spend more time than I’d like parking in muddy fields. AWD makes a huge difference for me in muddy fields because there is usually patches of good traction which means my front tires or my back tires will grip even though I won’t have grip on all four a lot of the time.

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BigPapaJava@reddit

It helps you get up hills and power through slick spots, but snow tires (or just having appropriate, quality tires in general) and driver caution and skill are both much more important.

The people who think AWD makes them invincible in snow are the people who slide off the road and wreck their cars in snow.

There are different AWD systems. Honda uses a FWD-based system that doesn’t kick in until those 0.01% of situations where the car has a momentary problem, lags for a second, and then it switches on. Subaru and some other manufacturers have full-time AWD systems that perform a lot better in those situations because it it’s never off, therefore there’s no lag.

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CipherWeaver@reddit

I drive a RWD in some of the worse winter conditions on earth and it's fine. Better tires are more important.

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mmspider@reddit

AWD works well because it allows the user to use basic all season tires and get around fine on most winter days in the Midwest. Those bad snow days you mostly see people with FWD having traction problems with all season tires. Of course with a winter tire you should be fine either way. I personally always go AWD because I am able to find affordable options with AWD. I just bought a Honda last year with AWD for example.

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precocious_necrosis@reddit

AWD will do nothing to help you stop your car, which is by far the most important factor in winter driving safety. AWD does NOT allow the driver to get by on all season tires, because all season tires suck at hard braking in slick conditions.

AWD is only a convenience feature that helps the driver accelerate. It does nothing for safety.

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Colorful_Monk_3467@reddit

I'd say it's a safety feature being able to accelerate through intersections and merge.

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mmspider@reddit

When I said "traction" I was talking about getting gone. But a all season tire AWD vehicle is totally fine for winter tires in the Midwest. We only have a few bad days. But even then I use a all weather tire which adds even more winter performance. Can`t imagine I need more.

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aWesterner014@reddit

I've been driving in the Midwest for 35 years. I've navigated plenty of poorly cleared winter roads, snow covered roads, ice covered roads, and driven through my fair share of snow storms and blizzards.

Never once have I needed AWD. It has never been a feature I've ever considered. I do prefer fwd in the winter, but I did drive an rwd for 15 of those winters.

Where I’m from AWD + Winter tires are a must. You could technically drive with FWD and winter tires but you’ll be safer with the AWD. It makes a difference.

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Sleep_Potential@reddit

Imagine that you don't know how to swim, and you have to go to the other side of a pool. - RWD is like swimming with a weight strapped to your ankles - FWD is like swimming with floaties on your arms - AWD is like someone gently pulling you with a rope to the other side of the pool

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AWD in my opinion is better in wet weather vs winter weather.

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imnotapervimfun@reddit

I'd say, having driven both in Alberta, always with winter tires, that fwd is ok, but you're much more likely to get stuck. Don't think if big drifting turns on the highway, think of having to pull over into a soft shoulder. Even my rwd pickup was on while driving, though not as good as the fwd or AWD, but if I see someone stuck in a situation that's more inconvenient than dire, it always seems to be an fwd.

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i_fuck_drywall@reddit

Not all awd systems are the same. For example, I wouldn’t take your car off roading in powder, but I would take a Benz with 4matic or a Volvo with a haldex system into powder.

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notalottoseehere@reddit

We don't really get snow in Ireland, but we get lots of rain, and have slippy roads with leaves, mud, etc. Probably marginal benefit, but my Xdrive bmw is way more grippy than my old rwd 3 series or more recent ES300H. Always had good tyres.

Substantial_Team6751@reddit

AWD lights up on the dash? We don't get an AWD light in our Pilot and Element.

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ilikestuff1231234@reddit

Depends on location. The winters we have here in Minnesota, I wouldn’t want anything other than my awd

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WesleyTallie@reddit

My last car was FWD and I would change out the tires for snow in the winter.

The car I have now is AWD and I am looking forward to not having to change into show tires every year.

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jstar77@reddit

Where I live the last mile of my commute AWD or 4wd is a must simply relying on winter tires will not cut it. AWD with the ability to disable traction control is also a must. If you are driving on roads that are generally maintained by the county/state front wheel drive and snow tires will get the job done. If you've got to drive the last mile uphill on an unmaintained road after it has snowed all day you need AWD/4WD. In this scenario I would take AWD with a good all season over FWD with snow tires. I keep a good all season tire on my vehicles and do not bother with snow tires. Being able to turn traction control off is important, sometimes you just need power going to as many wheels as possible to get you out of a situation.

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awd is a super cheap option these days due to economy of numbers. a complete no brainer when buy a car made within the last decade

Snow tires are great on ice and very moderate fluffy snow. AWD is a must if you drive through deep slush, or need to go get out of a parking lot that's low. Fwd is next to impossible to pull up hill in slippery conditions, especially if you have to quickly merge into traffic. Seriously probably in our town.

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Syntacic_Syrup@reddit

Brother, in west Michigan where we get crazy lake effect snow, a very high percentage of people have AWD or 4WD. These types of vehicles usually have increased ground clearance over a typical FWD sedan.

I had a FWD Mazda 3 this winter and I have all season tires on it. Driving carefully that was mostly fine but I have the luxury of not having to go in if it's a huge storm. (Or sometimes I would borrow my wife's SUV).

But there were times when it was snowing several inches every day. This means constantly shoveling myself out and having to ram back and forth to get out of the hole under the car where there was no snow. It's a ton of work. The city doesn't plow often and when they do you just get plowed in even worse. I have a garage in the alley but by it gets full of snow and chunky ice that is very hard for my small tires to get over. I got stuck very badly there and had to get a neighbor to help drive it out while I pulled it out with the SUV. Had I not had another car I probably couldn't have made it to work.

Any of those conditions with AWD, more ground clearance and bigger tires are usually very easy to get through. But with a small FWD car you need to do a ton more planning and thinking just to get anywhere. There are sometimes turns that you can't take because they plowed a foot high mound of snow across them.

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whitetigersk@reddit

I haven't read all the comments, so not sure if this has been mentioned.

Your Honda CRV is AWD all the time. The light on the dash is a fault light that comes on when something is not working correctly and your vehicle has reverted to front wheel drive.

You are basically using AWD all the time. It is worth it. Pair it with some good winter tires in the snow and you have a vehicle that is going to get you where you need to go.

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prosper. live long and prosper.

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prairie-man@reddit

and there it was... hiding in plain sight.

PolybiusChampion@reddit

Just because the light doesn’t come on only means the system isn’t actively dealing with excessive wheel spin, not that it’s not managing power going to all 4 wheels. The light only comes on when the system thinks it’s getting into dangerous conditions and wants to alert you to them.

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hemibearcuda@reddit

Alot depends on the terrain. Gravel road with no hills ? Decent snow tires and FWD will likely suffice.

Improved roads and hilly terrain ? You'll want AWD. It may not be active 90% of the time, but when it is needed, you'll wish you had it.

dudSpudson@reddit

I live in NY state. I also live on a steepish hill. I’ve had snow tires FWD and I’ve had AWD with all seasons.

For not getting stuck, AWD always wins for me. For handling and stopping Snow tires win.

Now snow tires on an AWD, you will be a tank in the snow

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MulberryMonk@reddit

Yes AWD is mandatory in NE.OH. I’m here and wouldn’t have it any other way. The people saying FWD and snows don’t live here.

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Beginning_Key2167@reddit

AWD with good snow tires is much better than FWD with the same snow tires. I lived in Maine for most of my life and had AWD, 4WD and FWD. 4WD with good snow tires was the best. Second AWD and third FWD.

Though I knew many people who made it through harsh heavy snow winters with a FWD with barely decent all seasons.

Simple answer: No.

It's a nice to have but not a necessary. I live in MA currently and have lived in Maine and Vermont in the past myself - all very snowy areas. I have had AWD, FWD, and RWD vehicles.

As others have said - tires make a big difference. My current vehicle, a 2011 Honda Civic, has snow and summer tires. First car I've had with snow tires.

Honestly if you're not driving like a complete knob you're going to be fine with most anything as long as you have good tires.

Given a choice of equal car and AWD or not, I'd opt for AWD, but usually there are other considerations. I really liked my Audi A6 with AWD when I had it, but the AWD was not the defining factor there.

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rufusalaya@reddit

Honda AWD is set up so that the rear axle only engages if there is a speed differential between the front and rear wheels. Even then, the gear ratio between the front and rear axles is slightly different, having slightly deeper gearing on the rear axle. So if you don't see the rear axle spinning untill the fronts are, that's why.

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CaptainHubble@reddit

No. Either FWD, RWD, or straight up 4x4.

I struggle to find a good AWD system that properly engages when I want it to. And doesn’t just partially brake certain wheels that at best make the whole car shake around without actually having any forward motion.

ABS is nice on snow tho.

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TweeksTurbos@reddit

I have not needed it but have enjoyed it.

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It's over-rated for sure. Spent half my life in snowy areas without it. Tire chains and snow tires got my FWD sedan out of every single crazy pickle I put myself in.

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JadedPass9693@reddit

AWD and FWD will both slip if you don’t have good tires on it in the snow.

AWD gives you the most control, especially when you are already moving. Like if you hit a snow/ice patch while on the highway it will give you the best control usually to get out of it.

FWD is almost as good (but can understeer in corners pretty bad if you come in too hot) I run a Fwd Mazda 3 in the winter and it does great, but I also have winter tires on it.

But yeah it probably wasn’t an issue of AWD vs FWD, more a tire issue that led to slipping.

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cmh_ender@reddit

if you can stay home the 4 timees a year you need it, than that's totally valid (assuming it's cheaper to buy the car as front wheel only). I live in Ohio too, front wheel does pretty well, real wheel does not do great when it's even a LITTLE dicey out.

Also, check into resale values. awd holds their value better in OHIO than in other southern states.