2000+ TT, <50 multi… no calls after 8 months. What am I missing other than multi?
Posted by Peak038@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 78 comments
Alright Reddit, I could really use some honest advice here.
I’ve got a little over 2000 total time, but unfortunately less than 50 multi. I’ve been job hunting for about 8 months now mostly regionals, also looking at Part 135 and 91 SIC stuff and I haven’t gotten a single call or interview.
I’m still instructing in single engine. No MEI, and at this point I don’t have the money to build more multi time. Sitting on about $130k in debt, so throwing more cash at hours just isn’t realistic right now.
It feels like I’m stuck in that gap where I have “too much time” for some jobs but not enough multi for the ones that mattter.
I’m open to anything at this point, just trying to keep moving forward.
Appreciate any help.
Embarrassed-Car-9082@reddit
Are you in a cadet program with a regional? I was told recently that 95% of CJO from regional carriers goes to people in their cadet programs. Off the street guys need an ATP and 2500 hours to be competitive. “This is what I was told from a recruiter” obviously things change fast in this industry. For context, I have 2300TT, 1500 turbine multi and 120 turbine PIC and haven’t heard back from envoy. I’m all 135.
druuuval@reddit
Envoy is a tough one. I sat in a cadet pitch the other day and they are probably one of the hardest programs to even get into. You have to be at a partner school as an instructor for one. What I understood was they would rather pull up the 1500 hour CFII from a partner school than look for someone with 135 TPIC so the quality of time that everyone was preaching about a couple years ago isn’t a big deal to them. It’s certainly the regional I would love to be at but who really knows what 2027 will look like.
You probably already talked to the guy I met but if you need another contact, I could certainly use someone on the inside in a few years so I’m happy to share notes and names if you like. 😂
Zealousideal_Elk9265@reddit
Thing is the industry is not hiring bro its not u trust me immma manger for a major company when a company needs staff they need staff once new contracts are open n they need pilots all that stuoid talks they giving ya will be out the window
Embarrassed-Car-9082@reddit
Are you in a cadet program with a regional? I was told recently that 95% of CJO from regional carriers goes to people in their cadet programs. Off the street guys need an ATP and 2500 hours to be competitive. “This is what I was told from a recruiter” obviously things change fast in this industry. For context, I have 2300TT, 1500 turbine multi and 120 turbine PIC and haven’t heard back from envoy. I’m all 135.
Peak038@reddit (OP)
No Cadet! It was not a trend 3 years ago. 🤷♂️
Heavy_Notice3544@reddit
Cadets was definitely a trend 3 years ago. That’s when I was in training and EVERYONE signed up for one program or another. Frontier being popular before they closed the applications. I’ve been a SkyWest cadet for at least 2.5 years minimum. Do I do much with it besides update hours each month? No. Will I have a super high “training seniority” and not be forced into midnight sims if I go there? Absolutely. Literally the easiest and chillest rules in that they just want you to update hours and don’t care if you are in multiple cadet programs.
SnooMuffins3614@reddit
Cadet programs were definitely in trend since the 2010s, but the problem was during the hiring boom reddit saw it as a hinderance than a plus since it limited them on which airline they would go, but nowadays it seems like it's the only major way to stay relevant/visible to regionals and getting into one of these cadet programs is extremely competitive unless you are in a partner school.
It just demonstrates how trends can shift so fast in this industry and how much power streets pilots had in choosing which airline they have the right to go to lol.
setecastronomy01@reddit
OP Skywest had a cadet program in 2015 and has since then. Obviously you can’t go back but all of these including endeavor have had such programs continuously. You need to update times within the apps every two weeks, the system tracks that, yes all the systems track that. Yes more multi will help, but you don’t need crazy multi-time, they know where you are coming from. I know that doesn’t help like you want it to, but you will get called. But you need to start updating continuously. Don’t do it every day but every two weeks or once a month like on the 1st of the month. Be consistent.
Embarrassed-Car-9082@reddit
I’m competitive for Netjets so if nothing 121 works out in the next 6 months I’ll drop an app with them. I have my ATP also and no failures. The market is just crazy competitive right now and who knows what’s going to happen if fuel prices keep going up.
Several-Village5814@reddit
Why don’t you drop an application at NetJets now? I’d rather be at NetJets the rest of my career than regional but that’s just me.
Embarrassed-Car-9082@reddit
I have a few other things in the works that needs to play out first. I’m in no big rush. Besides, going to a regional is not a life long move, people go there to get 121 experience for a year or so then try for their career airline.
flyingforfun3@reddit
Man I was at the same position as you a decade ago. I was flying a PC12 and door knocking at 135s. I annoyed a company so much I got an interview and the rest is history.
Try to apply at PC12 operator. Tradewinds, planesense, airsmart, etc. I only had 30 hours multi when I got my first jet job, but about 700 turbine (650ish PIC) but companies look favorably on turbine and 135 experience. You’ll be in the weather, working hard. That will translate to wherever you go. You’ll hand fly so many approaches you’ll have no problem your first type.
Accomplished_Ad8960@reddit
Besides multi? Turbine.
Ill-Animator-469@reddit
Genuine question, how? If turbine operators are not giving them a call back, how does someone get more turbine time?
FlyingShadow1@reddit
In my own case and a close friend's case, networking as a CFI. It got me a small amount and my friend is bound to end up with over 100 TPIC in a multi by the end of the year.
Ill-Animator-469@reddit
Good for both of you! Seriously.
Anixton@reddit
Your dad doesn’t own a pc-12?
RexFiller@reddit
Your dad doesnt own a 135 outfit?
Small_Chicken1085@reddit
Luckyyyuyuuu
BigC208@reddit
Mountain Air Cargo is hiring SIC’s for the C-408 and ATR-42/72. You qualify with your hours. 408 is in San Juan, Puerto Rico, ATR in Puerto Rico and US mainland.
Ok-Distance-426@reddit
Contact local flight schools at municipal or regional airports; sometimes they have operations that involve flying cargo to other airports for local companies. You will get paid for this and can build your multi-engine time. You did not state your area, which also may be a factor. Don't wait for calls - you do the calling, and keep calling.
Why are you 130K in debt is a big question: What's the deal with that?
whoaitsjello@reddit
50 multi isn’t really that much.
Only-Figure4829@reddit
Don’t get too discouraged yet, hiring has plateaued for the time but we haven’t hit the peak of retirements yet, there was a hiring spike in 22-23, but you’ll start seeing a more steady and consistent hiring going forward. Only American has hit their peak retirements year, and they’re still going to be hiring 10,000 pilots over the next 5 years. Everyone else is still going to see in a rise in retirements. It might be a little slower than in the past, but it will still continue and jobs will start opening up throughout the industry.
That being said— 8 months is not a long time to apply for an airline. Keep updating your apps- every 2 weeks, even if your hours don’t change- go in, refresh and resubmit. Don’t miss a meet & greet if you can and make sure to update your apps right before you meet with a recruiter.
Treat a meet & greet like an interview- suit & tie, a nice simple resume printed on nice paper.
I would also do whatever you can to cross the 50hr multi-engine mark. At this point you’ve got 1500hrs, so it’s more about “quality” time than total time. That’s a hard number that’ll you’ll be hard pressed to get around. If you can upgrade your current role that will help. If not, a good way to pad your resume is through volunteer time! *Pro tip- volunteer for an organization your goal airline already volunteers with.
Don’t get discouraged, I spent years applying and then things started happening fast! Keep your eyes on prize and it will happen for you.
LazySyllabub1449@reddit
How many checkride busts?
Peak038@reddit (OP)
1
cut1epie@reddit
Valuable connections
inspector44@reddit
Having spent 39 years at AAL, I can tell you that airline hiring is cyclical. With the new war and jet fuel prices, don't be surprised to see aircraft being tied down and pilot layoffs. You will probably have to wait for an upswing. One tip is to take any ground job at the airline you want to fly for. When the upswing comes, they will look at current employees first. Good luck.
circuitKing_98@reddit
I haven’t flown in +10 years (I have an expired PPL and GPL) - but have you thought about getting ‘creative’? Idk if this works or not - but what about Latin America? Or Africa? Or high arctic in Canada?
throwaway642246@reddit
Welcome to the club man.
I have two bachelors, a previous career in naval special warfare, 2000TT, 420 ME, tailwheel, acro guy, CFI/II/MEI, and the closest I have gotten in two years is a tech interview at JetLinx and I still got the TBNT.
I network like crazy, go to all the conferences, own two small airplanes and I’m at the airport weekly, I’m active everywhere and offering things not just asking for things.
We are in the absolute depths of “unless you know someone, you ain’t getting the call”.
WhenInDoubtGoAround@reddit
Wow! I feel that you’re one step below paying actual turbine time and two steps. below from space shuttle time.
Old-Trouble-8830@reddit
This makes me so sad and puts me so far down in the gutter it’s crazy looking at my measly 200+ total time
Peak038@reddit (OP)
😩
TacticalP00P@reddit
Somewhat similar position.
I’m 1700 TT 25 ME with one interview thanks to being a cadet. ATM written complete. I’ve gotten a phone number from a recruiter at one of the conferences with a little back and forth. My plan is more conferences and build ME time.
PropToThePeople_FMY@reddit
Honestly it sounds like you either aren't impressive on paper due to multi requirement or haven't networked enough. My guess, it's both.
All of uur CFI's are being hired right at 1500 so the oportunities are definately there.
I know everyone says "networking blah blah blah"... I tell you, it 100% works because t's a small industry and meeting people that can reffer you is a big deal.
Get the multi time ASAP somehow and start going to industry events to shake hands.
It will come. Best of luck
Cheers
Chris S
Several-Village5814@reddit
2000 hours and less than 50 is far from too much time. Get some real world experience. You can’t jump the line.
Slippery_when_RA@reddit
I think they mean too much time in that they can’t apply to any of the cadet programs.
TacticalP00P@reddit
There’s an alleged threshold of too much time for a regional where the worry is you’ll jump ship asap once you get 121 on the resume. I don’t think it’s at 2000 TT though…
Several-Village5814@reddit
No I think they think they have too many hours for jobs.
Dapper_Difference586@reddit
He’s trying to find the said real world experience man. People like you just need to pipe down when people come asking for advice. He’s trying to find out what can help him secure that exact experience. Stop patronising people.
Several-Village5814@reddit
He probably only applied to a few regionals and refuses to take any other jobs.
spencftw@reddit
Being different than the 100+ other applicants applying for the same SIC job…. That’s what you miss.
Do you have seaplane time, or turbine, or tailwheel? If not, get some! Do you have management experience, do you have a lot of volunteer experience. People forget jobs like this stuff. If you don’t have it, get it. Ask to get management experience at your school. Go volunteer. Join CAP. Go work at a food pantry or church or something. You have no idea how valuable letters of recommendation from volunteer work is. Especially at a mainline carrier. Not trying to be a bellend but if you’re a 2000 hour CFI-I with 25, 30, 35 hours of multi, almost no solo time, no ATP in hand, no experience other than the right seat of a 172 in the traffic pattern, I hate to break it to you, it’s you and 100+ other guys who are the exact same as you applying to that job. Are you ex military? Ex law enforcement? Did you use to work as a medical professional? Do you hold an A&P? I don’t agree that you have “too much time”. You don’t have valuable time for anything other than instructing in a piston single and fulfilling the total time requirement of an ATP. I’m sorry you took an eye watering loan out thinking a jet job was waiting on you the day you hit ATP mins. You missed the choo choo train of that. Gotta start networking your socks off, talking to everyone with an open hanger door, hitting the food truck fly-ins talking to the retired guys, talking to guys in the crew lounge and always having an updated resume in the bag. Sitting in the flight school throwing apps out between students isn’t an effective manor when you want a family with a Citation to send you to the schoolhouse
Several-Village5814@reddit
Ex law enforcement? As if that means a damn thing lol.
ltcterry@reddit
You are not competitive. Until you are competitive you are going to stay where you are: broke and in debt. I'd encourage you to find a way to get a full time job and instruct on the side.
Get your finances under control. Pay down some of the debt(s) you have. Then budget for some ME flying. Look at MEI and ATP. If you are instructing 1099 or self employed then at least you can claim some of the training expense on your taxes. You should have had a ton of deductible expenses for Schedule C if 1099/self employed.
Find local charter companies. Go introduce yourself. Ask for advice, not a job. Come across as a nice, motivated person they will remember positively.
Do you attend FAASTeam meetings? EAA meetings? How are you growing your connections in your local aviation community?
Recent-Day3062@reddit
Are you sure on taxes?
The traditional rule is that you may NOT deduct costs that are either required for your career, or if you switch careers. In either case the IRS could question it.
You can deduct costs to advance you in your current career.
The question is a technical one, depending on how the IRS and courts have defined this. And it’s definitely screwy and inconsistent.
The key case was a military officer who went to business school to get an industry job. The IRS questioned it, but the courts ruled that in the military his job was management, and he was improving his skills as a manager in the private sector, and that was deductible.
BTW, I was able to write off business school. I got audited, but they relented. And to be clear, this was decades ago - so it may be different rules now
ltcterry@reddit
*Initial* Commercial is a *new* career and not deductible. *Additional* Commercial ratings are growth within an *existing* pilot career and deductible as expenses on Schedule C. Not on a 1040.
Likewise *initial* Instructor is a new career and not deductible. Additional Instructor ratings are growth within an *existing* flight instructor career and deductible as expenses on Schedule C. Not on a 1040.
Quite sure of this.
Recent-Day3062@reddit
Great you know this for Aviation. It sort of changes by profession with the IRS
here's a recent confirmation
https://www.currentfederaltaxdevelopments.com/blog/2021/7/26/in-taxpayers-situation-cost-of-an-mba-program-found-to-be-a-deductible-business-education-expense
YourSpanishMomTaco@reddit
Not a tax professional but I believe initial CFI is not deductible as that qualifies as a new career but after that CFII & MEI are deductible.
saml01@reddit
I hear Aeroflot is hiring.
SnooMuffins3614@reddit
When I was meeting up with recruiters during outreach programs late last year they said they favor their cadets and partner schools, and while a 4 year degree isn't necessary it's basically an unofficial requirement. Ironically all of the advice that reddit gives is the opposite of what recruiters care about lol
Pilot-Sev@reddit
The low multi is probably the contributor from what you have provided.
No mention of training failures, but that could be a component.
Any degree (not req. but helps)? Professional experience beyond CFI? Charity work or hobbies on the resume?
Peak038@reddit (OP)
I have Bachelor's degree in Hospitality, I couldn't find community that I can be volunteer and can show on my resume because all required for membership.
Slippery_when_RA@reddit
What do you mean by “required for membership”?
Peak038@reddit (OP)
Monthly payment for membership. Like WIA. Or maybe I really don't know any community since working almost 20 hours these days.
Front-Monitor-1311@reddit
Annual membership. FWIW, a number of applications will ask about professional memberships, and checking the box with WAI or PAFI means that IF the HR black box gives you points for answering that question, you get those points.
The reason orgs like EAA require membership and youth protection training/background check for things like Young Eagles volunteering is liability - you can’t operate in the non-profit space (especially with kids) without satisfying their insurance standard, which is typically membership, your own insurance, and youth protection training and background check. Might be worth it if the HR algorithms want to see you check the “volunteers” box.
druuuval@reddit
I had a mentor tell me “you need to treat finding a job, like it’s your job.” Spend a least a few hours per day looking for companies that fit your experience. We just lost a great instructor to a PC12 job and he only had 800 hours TT. The jobs exist.
On a side note, if you’ve applied to all of these regionals, are you going to Sun & Fun to talk to anyone at the companies you have applied to?
Peak038@reddit (OP)
Yes, I am trying. I was in WIA last month and I am planning to go TPN event next month.
Pilot-Sev@reddit
Have you networked much? Gone to career fairs and met face to face with recruiters? Most folks I know had a rapport going with their recruiter, that definitely helped.
I’d say network, MEI- with the presumption you will get students or fly enough on your own to make those multi hours, maybe try to find a multi piston gig like a dropzone or something, maybe AK if you can find a place that’ll get you in a multi.
minimumxxxx@reddit
A job
chocolate_asshole@reddit
regionals mostly bin apps under 100 multi now, even if they dont say it. i’d grind for an mei, beg and trade for cheap multi, hit up every 135 cargo and charter chief pilot direct. clown world right now trying to move up, hiring is slow and getting any flying job is stupid hard
sprulz@reddit
Can confirm that this isn’t true. I got hired with 26 ME less than a year ago as did many of my classmates.
Different regionals are in different stages of hiring. Some are hiring more than others. E.g., Envoy and Endeavor are mostly hiring cadets right now, while PSA has been on a bit of a hiring spree and has been hiring a lot of OTS FOs.
Having more multi helps cast a wider net and gives you better odds of getting picked up by an airline that’s being more selective, but the notion that regionals “bin” apps with less than 100 multi is something you pulled out of your ass.
Old-Trouble-8830@reddit
I’ve seen SkyWest opening up a good bit too I’ve had multiple of my old instructors and some friends get picked up in the last month or two
Novel-Leg8534@reddit
Not true. Don’t listen to this. This is speculation.
LycomingO235@reddit
I have CJOs elsewhere but I have 150hrs multi, 2300TT, gold seal, a bunch of leadership / volunteering / extra stuff on my resume, degree with honors in technical field, prior WE with career progression and got rejected from Endeavor.
ozzies_35_cats@reddit
Unfortunately it’s just not 2022 anymore. 2k and <50 ME isn’t going to get you a lot. Be willing to move for a job, network, and focus on getting some debt paid down with a full time non flying job while instructing on the side is probably your best course. I predicted this back during COVID. People saw how much hiring happened during the bounce back, then are now stuck comparing their times with 2022 hiring mins…it’s a cyclical industry and unfortunately, the wave has crested.
BagOfMoneyNoChange@reddit
Bare minimum experience with maximum amount of debt. A tale as old as time.
Maleficent-Basil8626@reddit
No MEI, not much multi time. Do you have the ATP written done? How much IFR time?
As of right now it doesn’t look too competitive. There’s tons of other applicants that are equal or better than your resume. Why should they take you over them?
CommercialLazy3563@reddit
When you ask for IFR do you mean actual time? Or hood time + actual?
Maleficent-Basil8626@reddit
Hood+actual. But actual time is obviously better
Peak038@reddit (OP)
Yes, ATP CTP and written Cmpleted. 110 IFR 🤷♂️
MR_Weisenheimer@reddit
Network, network, network. Then CFII and MEI.
The 135 operator I work for gets 100s of resumes unsolicited. They didn’t post the most recent job opening. Instead, we pilots advocated for the two candidates who are interviewing.
You need an influential person at the company advocating for you plus enough skill/experience that you’re not a liability.
Nearby-Medicine9484@reddit
It's all about that multi.
DefundTheHOA_@reddit
You’re missing more hours
Peak038@reddit (OP)
Heap, I am aware but I can’t build it out of pocket. I am broke!
burnheartmusic@reddit
I mean, did you plan for this financially? Because this is not far from the norm.
Humble_Ad_1023@reddit
Do you have a college degree?
Peak038@reddit (OP)
Yes
LikenSlayer@reddit
Networking, having ATP/CTP & more multi is king right now. It's just the market we are in right now. I know people that have CJO at regionals & been waiting 8 months for the start date.
Believe it or not, the machine is starting to move.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Alright Reddit, I could really use some honest advice here.
I’ve got a little over 2000 total time, but unfortunately less than 50 multi. I’ve been job hunting for about 8 months now mostly regionals, also looking at Part 135 and 91 SIC stuff and I haven’t gotten a single call or interview.
I’m still instructing in single engine. No MEI, and at this point I don’t have the money to build more multi time. Sitting on about $130k in debt, so throwing more cash at hours just isn’t realistic right now.
It feels like I’m stuck in that gap where I have “too much time” for some jobs but not enough multi for the ones that mattter.
I’m open to anything at this point, just trying to keep moving forward.
Appreciate any help.
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