Is a "Six Speed Dual Clutch" Automatic or manual?
Posted by unwrittenpaiges@reddit | askcarguys | View on Reddit | 148 comments
I'm looking at buying a Hyundai Veloster but it says "six speed dual clutch" for transmission and it's a little unclear to me what that means. I don't want a manual transmission.
Tree_Weasel@reddit
DCTs are automatic transmissions as far as the driver knows. But inside, they behave like a manual that’s just shifted by computer instead of a foot pedal clutch and stick shift.
Dangerous-Phase-2345@reddit
Dual clutch is a different architecture than an actual manual transmission
Muttonboat@reddit
Yeah but it closer to a manual in operation and there no torque converter.
LazyLancer@reddit
It’s kind of like saying that ice is a “solid liquid”, which technically is the case but come on…
DCT is an automatic transmission. People somehow learned to associate AT with a torque converter but it’s wrong. Automatic transmission is a transmission that changes gears automatically.
One is a torque converter automatic transmission, another one is a dual clutch automatic transmission.
NHRADeuce@reddit
That's not even close to accurate. A DCT isn't an automatic with a clutch instead of a torque converter. It's a manual.with no clutch pedal and computer control.
A DCT still has gears, shift forks, and syncros. An automatic has planetary gears, bands, clutches and works on hydraulic pressure.
If a traditional manual is ice, then a DCT is ice from an icemaker and an automatic is an icepack filled with propylene glycol.
LazyLancer@reddit
Do you manually shift the gears? If yes, it’s a manual.
Language-twisting has gone too far.
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
If you bolted a contraption onto a lever action to cycle the lever would it cease being a lever action rifle? Because thats what they are. As a ford transmission tech the dct is all manual except for the fact that actuator motors controls the clutch lever instead of a slave cylinder operated by your foot pushing the pedal. Internally they are 99% manual transmission. Even out service engineers and ford mech engineers call the automatically shifting manuals. Yes the tcm controls and it ends up shifting automatically but you can dress it up any way you like its not anywhere close to a traditional auto trans
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
It is very different from a true manual. A wet twin disc clutch and all the mechanics to shift make it just ad close to am auto
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
Dps6 the one im talking about is a dry external clutch as well as the forks, slave and t.o. bearing. Not different at all, and internal exactly the same as a manual with the exception of two clock gears operated by the tcm to move the shift forks. Ive had more apart than I could count. The only other dct for utilizes is the tremec 7speed which is made by a manual trans manufacturer and listed on their website as an automated manual trans. While it is a tad closer to a traditional automatic trans with the use of a dual wet clutch system and a control system closely resembling a valve body main control, the guts still are all gears and synchros. Its onky used in the gt350
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
Autos have gears. Also
The Ford DPS6 is a 6-speed dry-clutch PowerShift automatic transmission used in 2011–2016 Ford Fiesta and 2012–2016 Ford Focus vehicles. It was designed for better fuel efficiency but is notorious for reliability issues, including shuddering, slipping, and premature failure caused by clutch contamination and TCM (Transmission Control Module)
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
Autos have planetary gears and sun gears and final drive differentials in transaxles. Quite different from the gears in traditional manuals with shift forks, synchros and blocker rings. You dont have to cut and paste facts about the dps6. Ive worked as a ford transmission tech from many years before they came out in the 2011 fiesta. I know them well
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
Transaxle. What is it a 63 tempest?
LazyLancer@reddit
It would still stop being a manual action rifle. Because it’s no longer operated manually.
Kseries2497@reddit
It's just copium. Manual transmissions have developed a sort of swag factor in the US as being for "real drivers," since most cars, even cheap ones, have been automatic for decades now. People want a piece of that, so they develop reasons that THEIR transmission is manual and therefore THEY are a "real driver."
In reality, a DCT is an automatic transmission because it operates automatically, and there's no reason to make a big deal out of driving stick since we teach literal children to do it. My mother taught me, and she doesn't care even a little bit about cars.
LazyLancer@reddit
Thanks for phrasing it better than me in another comment branch.
I agree, this “automated manual” is mostly marketing terminology because companies want to position their product as “it’s for the real shit for real drivers and it’s also convenient to use, so you don’t neee to learn to drive stick, how cool is that”.
Muttonboat@reddit
You literally have a tech saying that ford engineers and other techs refer to the part mechanically as a automated manual. It comes from the factory documentation as a that
No customers are even involved in that pipeline - who are they marketing to?
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
It is a lie. Prove it with docs
LazyLancer@reddit
Because product positioning must stay consistent across all levels of organizational. Trust me, when they make seats out of “LuxTec Eco-Leather”, internal instructions will not say “synthetic shit” - it would create unnecessary friction and strategical risk for the product.
Regarding the latter - they are positioning / marketing the transmission entirely. Not just SUV with a transmission. Obviously, they cannot have the exact same transmission type be called in a different way on two vehicles. So for the vehicles that have a sporty or premium aura around them - that’s the “chic” automated manual transmission. For the rest of the bunch - whatever, here’s your DCT.
Also, by calling it an “automated manual” or whatever, it’s easier for them to promote the selling points on the contrast with this legacy of an AT naming. “You see, sir, it’s as economical as a manual but shifts even faster. You’re connected with the car as if you’re driving a manual but you don’t need to mess with the stick - that’s why we are calling it an automatic manual”.
It’s just product marketing derived from the established perception of “torque converter automatic” as an old an inefficient transmission and a demand to emphasize selling points.
Muttonboat@reddit
There's no market boogey man trying to make non stick drivers feel insecure or make manuals feel better
the name automated transmission fits what's happening behind a the scene accurately mechanically despite being automated.
The tech above gave specific reason on why as well
9/10 out of ten in marketing material they say dual clutch or automatic.
behind the scenes they say otherwise because engineers and techs understands otherwise
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
So using the paddle shifters in an automatic makes it a manual now? Oof
LazyLancer@reddit
That’s what you are saying. I always said that a manual when you are shifting the gears yourself, meaning the mechanical action.
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
So the computer shifting a manual for you doesn't make it an automatic. Its the same thing just opposite
LazyLancer@reddit
If an automated mechanism is shifting a transmission - it’s an automatic transmission. Not a manual one. Even if it is a carbon copy of a manual transmission with a shifting block slapped on top - it’s still an automatic transmission because a human is not changing gears manually
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
I understand your point i just have to deal with it differently because I have to constantly explain the difference to owners of the focus and fiesta why it feels different than a traditional automatic and why they have to operate it differently than a traditional automatic if they want it to last. It becomes a who's on first scenario if I keep calling it an automatic when explaining clutch shudder, how taking your foot off the brake in traffic is akin to feathering a clutch and why the trans goes to neutral when at stops with your foot on the brake. I get a lot of well all my other transmissions didn't do that and I could always do that before and it wasn't a problem how come I have to change the way I drive now. How come ford or the salesman didn't tell me I was going to have to buy a clutch. Its easier for me to explain it and for customers to understand it when its called an automatic shifting manual transaxle. Yes it shifts automatically you are correct so its an automatic
LazyLancer@reddit
I suppose it also depends on the native language and the terms used in this or that region.
Where I was born, everyone calls an automatically shifting transmission an “automatic” (in native language) and then specify which kind of automatic transmission.
We don’t have an established wording that “an automatic transmission equals torque converter”, instead we could clarify this as is “classic auto”, “regular auto” or “torque converter auto” etc.
Otherwise it goes like “the dct auto”, “the robot auto”, and so on. CVT is usually just called a variator, without specifying “auto”.
—-
Same for AWD vs 4WD. We usually say “front wheel drive”, “rear wheel drive” or “full wheel drive”, and in case of “full” we specify which kind.
This affects the internal structure of applied technology vs terms and guess it translates into English that is a foreign language, where so many (too many, to my liking) are used to the established wordings like “AT is torque converter, what do you mean a clutch is shuddering?”
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
Clutch shudder or chatter is a common complaint on our dct trans on take offs. Very similar to traditional manual trans clutch shudder but worse. Improper applications on takeoff in a traditional manual can cause this but on the ford dps6 taking your foot off the brake and not hitting the gas pedal causes the idle to pull the vehicle around very slowly but more chugging type feeling than a traditional automatic which it would be a very normal way to drive in very slow traffic. Doing this with our dct can cause severe jerking/shuddering and lead to replacement of the clutch to cure the shudder. A very expensive repair on a very cheap car. There were many class action lawsuits about it and over the years I have replaced well over 1000 clutches and had to testify or give statements in many depositions in lawsuits pertaining to ford dct trans. So its a bit of a sore spot with me even though I made a lot of money replacing them I rarely do them anymore because most people aren't willing to spend the money to fix them out of warranty
Kseries2497@reddit
Paddle shifting an auto is not "manual" for two reasons. First, the transmission is still fully capable of automatic shifting. Second, you aren't shifting, you're just making suggestions to the computer - suggestions that it can and will reject if it sees fit.
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
Yes i know. I was just arguing against his point that dct is is more like a traditional automatic than a manual. I dont agree that it is
RunninOnMT@reddit
Nobody is arguing that mechanically, a DCT doesn’t share more with a manual than a torque converter equipped auto.
But the word “automatic” when used in this context is short for “automatically shifting transmission” and the word “manual” is short for “manually shifted transmission”
Now the problem is that for decades the ONLY way of getting an automatically shifting transmission was through a torque converter. Even worse, the manual transmission still continues to basically just work the way it works, to the point we don’t even have another more specific word for it (maybe “standard?” But again, doesn’t describe the internal workings)
We’ve then evolved to use these shorthand “automatic” and “manual” to describe the mechanical processes because there was no point in differentiating that from their descriptions as manuals or automatics. But now there is and we are trying to untangle things.
Anyway if a DCT can shift automatically, it’s an automatically shifting transmission. Commonly known as an “auto”
It’s just a DCT auto not a torque converter auto.
Hotsaltynutz@reddit
I fully understand what they are being a transmission tech for over 30 years and having to constantly explain the failure of the ford dps6 trans to customers and why they have to relearn their driving habits to avoid clutch shudder on takeoff not normally associated with automatic transaxles makes the wording a sticking point for me. I fully understand they call it an automatic because it shifts automatically but the internals are 99%manual and it makes a huge difference to customers who aren't "car guys" when they dont understand why is doesn't feel or act anything like any automatic they have driven their entire lives
Mirai_Akiyama@reddit
Hyundai's internal catalog classifies the DCT transmissions as manual assemblies, and they call for manual transmission fluid - Hyundai Parts guy
NHRADeuce@reddit
Sure, you can absolutely shift manually. It operates more like a sequential transmission instead of a traditional H pattern, but you can completely disable automatic shifting.
The best, and most accurate description of a DCT is a computer controlled manual transmission. Because that's what it is.
Just like you can have a computer controlled automatic.
No one makes a DCT that isn't computer controlled. It's possible, but it would be stupid. There are dozens of automatic transmissions that are not computer controlled. A 4L60E is just a computer controlled 700R4.
LazyLancer@reddit
You are not shifting manually. You are pressing a button that initiates automatic changing of gears.
NHRADeuce@reddit
How you push the level is immaterial, you are still manually deciding when you shift. Push a stick, push a button, it's still manual.
LazyLancer@reddit
It is absolutely material, because it defines whether you do the shifting manually or a robot does it for you. If you change those buttons or digital lever into a voice activated command processor, would you still call it a manual because “you decide when to shift”?
Muttonboat@reddit
It isn't language twisting if the manufacturer themselves calls them automated manuals in non marketing material
that's just there name and definition.
LazyLancer@reddit
It IS language-twisting and marketing. I guess it doesn’t come as a surprise that manufacturers materials must stay consistent after they use a certain term for their product?
From Oxford English Dictionary:
This is the definition of “manual” vs “automatic”, not a certain technology used to automate a transmission in that or another way.
Muttonboat@reddit
no it's not when the manufacturer themselves actually use that term in tech documents meant for engineers.
who are they marketing to?
LazyLancer@reddit
CVT is a different case as there are no gears to shift. It’s automated to a sorts though. But I hope you have no intention of calling it a “continuous variable manual” or something.
Realistically, here is the right way to organize it:
Manual transmission
Automatic transmission
2.1. Torque-Converter transmission
2.2. Dual clutch transmission
2.3. Continuous variable transmission
And so on.
But people are too obsessed with product terms to use the words according to their meaning.
If you’d like, we could have a similar discussion about what a mess of bollocks is the definition of AWD vs 4WD. Both mean that “all four wheels are drive wheels” but because these or those guys implemented it in a different way, we now have two terms words with similar meaning define technology type
Muttonboat@reddit
yeah but it's still an auto and uses a completely different process from a torque converter.
it's different enough on mechanics that it denotes its own definition
this is the same idea with a dual clutch and why it's refered to as an automated manual
it's internal and process is so different from others that its process has its own name
it's why manufacturers call it such even in tech specs.
HalfBlindKing@reddit
My transmission uses a torque converter and a shifter where I can select 1 through 5. It is a manual.
LazyLancer@reddit
Does this shifter manually shift gears (like, a lever moves gears inside the box) or it’s just a set of buttons to tell the transmission which gear to engage?
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
Automatics have gears bro. And there are no forks in dual clutches
Muttonboat@reddit
manufacturers even refer to their dcts as automated manuals
hell even Porsche considers their pdk an automated manual.
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
No they don’t. The engineers think it is hilarious that morons believe these are anywhere close to a real manual
LazyLancer@reddit
Because marketing. “Manual” sounds enthusiast, but very few people want to meddle with a stick. So they call it “automated manual” for the sake of marketing.
There is little sense to twist the words against common sense.
Muttonboat@reddit
You could make that argument for porche, but plenty of those same manufacturers are tossing those same transmissions into hybrids and non enthusiast cars and they'll still refer to them as automated manuals by the manufacturer
Professional_Win6032@reddit
Wrong answer. An auto shift is not an automatic.
LazyLancer@reddit
Yeah, an automatically shifting transmission is not automatic, I got it.
throwawayurmom16901@reddit
The replies to this are crazy. You're right, a DCT is an automatic transmission. Manual transmissions have 3 pedals and you row the gears yourself. The way a transmission is built is irrelevant. If you aren't operating the clutch yourself, it is not a manual transmission.
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
Anybody who says automated manual is dumb. Nothing that is automated is referred to as manual. An automatic rifle is not an automated manual rifle. I don’t open my garage with an automated manual door opener. My windows and mirrors are not automated manual windows and mirrors. My rearview isn’t an automated manual dimmer.
unwilling_viewer@reddit
The manufacturers of the gearboxes call them automated manuals. The manufacturers of the cars refer to them as automated manuals. Source, I just work here, what would I know.
Bread-fi@reddit
Manufacturers call 4 door cars coupes and banal raised wagons "sports utility vehicles".
unwilling_viewer@reddit
Nah. Marketing speak is stuff like powershift, s-tronic, PDK, DSG, Speedshift, what they are is automated manuals.
3rdreprieve@reddit
Then I have a question for you. Why does my “automatic transmission” not have any automatic transmission parts whatsoever? Why are there shift forks? Why is there a set of clutches where a torque converter should be?
verymuchbad@reddit
You know the part where it shifts itself? That's the automatic.
Muttonboat@reddit
Damn, and it has all the parts of a manual transmission and none of the parts of traditional automatic
sounds like an automated manual!
Just like how the manufacturer themselves refer to them too!
Lucky347@reddit
I've often heard robot transmissions called automated manuals. They are manual transmissions that have automated gear changes and clutch presses. My military truck has a transmission like that, it is interesting to drive.
Muttonboat@reddit
unfortunately it's an automated manual transmission
sorry your worldview is shot
IndependentShocker@reddit
DCTs are much closer to automatics than manuals. Their lack of torque converter doesn’t make up for the lack of stick.
9BALL22@reddit
True, but irrelevant in this case. They operate automatically, no involvement from the driver. OP just wants to avoid a manual transmission.
Salt_Efficiency5843@reddit
Dual clutch is far closer to a manual than a traditional torque converter equipped Automatic.
Icy_Nose_2651@reddit
that sounds like an expensive repair waiting to happen
Dangerous-Phase-2345@reddit
I have one in my golf and it's very stout. Granted vw had been making versions of that for 15 years already.You must follow the fluid change schedule for the dct box though. And don't ford a river to dunk the breather tube.
Reeno50k@reddit
Its not advised to 'crawl' with a DCT for long periods since the system will enact clutch slip in first to not stall, been a fair few clutch pack failures from excessive driving in slow moving traffic thinking its behaving like a traditional slush box.
adhd_mechanic@reddit
If it is (or can be) automatically shifted... it's an AUTOMATIC.
The whole concept of the "automatically shifted manual" came from boomers getting butthurt when people laughed at them for getting a sports car with an automatic... and unfortunately the mentality has stuck around.
Yes, some automatics are mechanically similar to manuals but have an automatic "control" side (Porsche's PDK, for example) but in my opinion, automatic vs. manual refers to the operation, not the construction.
derps-a-lot@reddit
Counterpoint: there have been more than two kinds of transmissions since the days of auto vs manual from the hot rod era and the only reason we call a DCT/DSG an automatic is so that it fits into a boomer's black and white perspective of the world.
Frazeur@reddit
I'd say this "black and white perspective" is the single most important thing to most car buyers and drivers. Do you need to shift manually or not? I.e, is it an automatic or not? Exactly how the automation and gear chaning works is irrelevant to most. Well, not nwcessarily irrelevant, but they still don't care (even though they perhaps should).
So yeah, I think dividing gearboxes into autos and manuals depending on how you operate them is incredibly important.
Then all the technical people can talk about DCTs, sequential gearboxes, torque converters etc all they want.
I know this will never happen, but I do wish the automotive enthusiast community would move away from using terms such as "automated manual" (Of which there are many different anyways), and instead call it a DCT or whatever.
derps-a-lot@reddit
Appreciate this perspective and I see it both ways.
First, I don't think it's important. 97% of new car sales are automatic. The only people that care about it are people actively seeking a specific kind of transmission, which is usually enthusiasts seeking manuals. The overwhelming majority won't even think of this question.
That means in order to stay relevant, you need to differentiate further. This car shifts faster than anything else (DCT). This car optimizes gearing for gas mileage (CVT).
For a simple analogy, consider phones and tablets. How does it connect? Wifi only? Wifi and mobile data? Do I need a separate plan or sim card? Is it 4G, LTE, 5G etc?
People do care about the tech to a degree if you can differentiate it. Sure they may not care about wifi 5 versus 6, but they care about it being faster or newer tech. Otherwise, if we dumb it down, we're left in a world where people don't even know there's a difference between WiFi and mobile data, which were starting to see today.
Frazeur@reddit
Oh yeah, I think I mostly agree with you. I guess the number you mention is for North America or USA specifically? In fact, I think you point still stands, but the percentage is probably a bit lower in Europe, where you can still get, and some non-enthusiasts still want, manuals in normal non-enthusiast cars.
But yeah, I think there are two layers. Firstly, most people only (if at all) care about whether the car is automatic or manual, i.e. do you need manual input for the car to change gears or not, and this is what I would like the terms "automatic" and "manual" transmissions to refer to.
Then you have the second layer, which is what is relevant to anyone with a little more interest or technical understanding. This is then whether you have a DCT, CVT, "eCVT", sequential gearbox, dog box, planetary gearbox, torque converter, synchronized or not etc. Some of these can exist in both automatic or manual transmissions I guess. I've driven a military truck with both a torque converter and clutch. Bikes have sequential manual gearboxes, but I'm pretty certain some sport cars have sequential automatic (as in, you don't need to do anything to change gears) gearboxes. I've never seen a planetary gearbox in a manual though, and I do wonder why.
I dunno if my ramblings help, but in short, I do agree with this:
I just don't think that not calling a transmission than does everything for you and requires no manual input an automatic transmission does not help people on the way. Since we both seem to like analogies, it's a bit like if you'd call optical fiber "cabled wifi" and cable internet would strictly refer to traditional copper wire internet (DSL). Eh, this is probably a bad analogy.
I get that the nomenclature is what it is, but I'm saying it could be more clear, by using more colloquial definitions of "automatic".
AlmiranteCrujido@reddit
Lets not even start on CVTs :)
Which_Initiative_882@reddit
Its an automatic with extra steps, a few quirks, and more maintenence.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
The ford focus DCT certainly had some quirks
Reeno50k@reddit
What's funny is BMW equipped the same Gertag sourced transmission to their F gen M cars, the key difference being they specced theirs with a dedicated oil reservoir as opposed to the powershift being a dry clutch system.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
I can see that making a huge difference. You open up fords and it’s just caked with dust
Which_Initiative_882@reddit
Yeah, Ford really dropped the ball on that one... Im a Ford guy, but will never touch their DCT.
OregonMothafaquer@reddit
It wasn’t even just the DCT itself. Ford used way too thin of ground wires as-well. If you upgrade the ground wires and add a few more points the clutch actuators that rely heavily on voltage work much better.
Which_Initiative_882@reddit
Any fixes for the burned up TCMs? Last I heard they were discontinued with no way to replace other than hope you get a good used one.
Fickle_Finger2974@reddit
That’s just silly. Mechanically it is far more similar to a manual. Your take is clearly biased and not informative either.
Which_Initiative_882@reddit
Im distilling it down for the non-car folk. I love the idea behind them but so far no one has made one that is either as reliable or cheap to run as either an automatic, OR a manual. Youve got to be careful with them in stop-go situations and they require fluid changes FAR more often for the wet clutch versions. Yeah, youve got many of the same parts and setup as a teaditional manual but you also have a ton of electronics moving everything instead of a lever and a couple rods. More parts to fail, far fewer options for the driver to limp it home as you no longer have direct control over anything. Fuck yeah Im biased because Im an entheusiast, work on my own vehicles and get rather irritated when manufacturers make it damn hard to get information on things let alone actually fix them, and shady mechanics and/or dealers that dont actually do the work you pay them for.
Wolf_Ape@reddit
I like a variety of both manuals and autos in different vehicles and situations, and I consider this one of the more difficult and nuanced transmission questions. Not the specifically asked basic question to which I say - Yes it is an automatic transmission, and yes it can be shifted using the paddles on either side of the steering wheel in an up/down sort of sequential shifting setup. It is the only automatic configuration that could potentially offer you driving enjoyment and precision shift/rpm control similar to the experience of a manual.
What’s complicated and difficult about it is deciding how it ranks amongst all other transmissions, and more importantly how it ranks for you amongst all transmissions you’re willing or able to consider.
Theoretically the dct should sit right near the top for all scenarios, and be the unquestionably superior option for consumer vehicle automatic transmission designs. I suppose technically that is true, but only because of the examples found bolted to a Lamborghini, Ferrari, Mclaren, 911, ford gt, nsx, or most memorably (to me at least) the GTR. At ~$120k the GTR is the most affordable car in this category. 33% of that price tag was originally said to be due to the $40k dct.
An oem replacement is $20k-27k now, and the vehicle’s msrp is also up $10k-30k from when I read that “1/3 of total cost claim”, but you get the point. You can’t buy an entry level vehicle with a god tier transmission at a reasonable price, unless there are some kind of significant tradeoffs involved that make it possible.
Software/programming is a huge part of the equation, and there are at least 3-4 well regarded piggyback tuning modules that aside from offering a substantial engine/turbo performance boost, also provide transmission launch control features, shift point/“strength” adjustments, minimize “gear hunting/premature shifting”, and increase durability by avoiding most high stress unnecessary shifts but instead maintaining secure clamping forces during higher torque transfer conditions.
They stopped making the veloster in ‘22, so warranty is off the table. Clutches are an exhaustible service item, even though the dct clutches should last longer than the average manual. You will want to bring a driver with at least basic mechanical knowledge and experience with manual transmissions if not dct’s specifically for a thorough test drive. Shuddering, slipping, and hard to recognize rpm inconsistencies can indicate the condition of the clutch plates, but it might be hard to notice/recognize for someone who has never burned out a clutch. Replacement clutches, installation, and calibration should cost $2k-3k, and you’ll probably never need to replace them again unless you are constantly doing hard 0-60mph launches, or you plan on adding 50+hp to the motor, and driving it hard.
I say it’s perfect for someone unwilling to drive a manual, and who plans to share it with someone that prefers a manual. I strongly dislike fwd, and consider the existence of open differentials offensive, but it has a “e-Lsd” which feels like a 50/50 mix of fraud/insult, but it will offer basically the same capabilities as 95% of the “faux-by-fours” marketed as “awd” these days. The vast majority of automatics are objectively inferior cvt’s, and if you’re looking at a vehicle outside of warranty, the cvt is a far greater financial risk.
The only automatics I’d consider comparable or moderately better options in a somewhat similar price range are those conventional torque converter designs in various large trucks and SUVs with part time 4wd, or certain Mazdas. The engineering of an auto that can handle meaningful towing capabilities imposes significantly more demanding requirements, and Mazda simply because they focused their r&d funding into improving/optimizing the traditional automatic designs while most competitors blew all their cash on the magic beans that cvt’s represent.
Cliqey@reddit
FWIW, I find hatchbacks to be very good for medium/large dogs. Back seats folded down for a large space to lay and easy to jump in through the hatch.
unwrittenpaiges@reddit (OP)
It is a big dog (125 lbs) but has bad back legs and has a hard time getting in cars but I think this will work
Cliqey@reddit
Yeah for big older Bernese I had to help lift her in and out my MINI, but the younger one can hop in and out all day.
Best of luck in your search!
Captkarate42@reddit
Dual clutch gearboxes are automatic.
Muttonboat@reddit
If we're getting pedantic - In behavior yes, but they're closer to manuals.
Captkarate42@reddit
I am aware but functionally speaking this person who does not know what they are is unlikely to notice the difference, and mostly seems to not want a clutch pedal, which these do not have.
Skyhound555@reddit
Honestly, the primary issue is the idea that someone ignorant will not know the difference.
A DCT acts very different to a CVT or even a ZF. Many new owners of a DCT struggle and assume theirs is broken because the computer tends to struggle with first and second.
Captkarate42@reddit
I think that is a strange thing to call the primary issue when all OP is asking is whether they are required to shift a dct manually, and the answer is no.
heyitsYMAA@reddit
The OP also doesn't know what they don't know.
The OP may not know that certain things you can do safely with a torque converted automatic or CVT can cause problems in a DCT. The OP might buy one and they hate how it drives because it doesn't behave entirely like an automatic, or worse cause long-term damage and be stuck with a broken car they hate.
I don't think it's unfair to provide information that might be helpful in making an informed decision.
Captkarate42@reddit
I agree with that entirely. It's a good thing to know about, but it's strange to try to "Nuh-uh!" When OP asks if they have to shift it themselves, and people answer that question correctly by saying no, which is what these other people are doing.
There are more constructive and informative ways to inform people about the differences between types of transmissions than the path several of these people are taking.
Careless-Trick-5117@reddit
If there’s no clutch pedal it’s an automatic
Muttonboat@reddit
the manufacturer even calls it an automated manual in tech specs for engineers and techs
DJFisticuffs@reddit
Why does it matter what the manufacturer calls it? For the consumer, the defining characteristic of an automatic transmission is that it shifts automatically, which a DCT does.
Captkarate42@reddit
What is the definition of "automated"?
Op is asking whether they are required to manually shift a dct, the answer is objectively no. The transmission automatically shifts for them. There is a lot of discussion to be had about transmissions and their various pros and cons, but there is not a lot more discussion that this person really needs.
NoobensMcarthur@reddit
Nobody is getting pedantic here except for you.
StJe1637@reddit
found the coper who tells everyone he dries a manual
heyitsYMAA@reddit
I don't think that's what this person is saying. I think what they mean is that in terms of construction DCTs have more in common with a manual than an automatic has in common with a manual, which is true.
In operation they are similar, of course, in that they don't have a clutch pedal or a "stick" for shifting.
gotcha640@reddit
Two fairly considerable parts of a manual are missing from a DCT
Neuvirths_Glove@reddit
We're not getting pedantic. The OP is wondering if there's a clutch pedal. What happens under the hood is a black box to them.
Immediate-Share7077@reddit
Dual clutch transmissions have 2 sets of gears - 1/3/5 and 2/4/6. Basically, one clutch is always engaged and ready to go so that when you shift to the next gear it’s much faster because it simply swaps sides on the gears without needing to activate a clutch beforehand. Its what most performance cars are using (DSG in volkswagen, PDK for porsche, DCT for bmw) are all dual clutch automatic transmissions
fdeyso@reddit
The veloster is a 4 door. 1 +2 sides + back.
Im_Not_Evans@reddit
If there isn’t a clutch pedal, it’s an automatic. End of discussion.
mattynmax@reddit
Automatic.
Kdoesntcare@reddit
Basically it's a manual transmission that doesn't have a clutch pedal. You can use paddle shifters or just drive it like it's an automatic.
Back in the early 2000s when VW released the DSG transmission there was a lot of "DSG is an automatic transmission," vs "DSG is totally a manual transmission!"
I had a friend who owned a DSG car but couldn't drive a car that had a manual transmission that has a clutch pedal but still screamed that he could drive a manual car.
Tricky_Passenger3931@reddit
They’re actually a 3 door hatch. The drives side only has 1 door but the passenger side has 2, so if access for your dog is a concern, you might actually be the perfect candidate for Veloster ownership 😂
unwrittenpaiges@reddit (OP)
Oh so there's a door to the back seat on the passenger side? That's actually cool
Tricky_Passenger3931@reddit
Correct. Weird design but Hyundai wanted a vehicle that looked like a 2 door from the drivers side profile, but with the convenience of a 4 door. That was their solution.
okron1k@reddit
It’s automatic. Don’t get caught up in the technical stuff.
A manual has a clutch pedal and requires input from the driver for every gear change. If you have the option to put it in D and drive, it’s automatic. Period. Even if you can switch it to manually control what gear you’re in, it’s still an automatic.
A person who doesn’t want a manual doesn’t care how it works and doesn’t need to be confused with terms like automated manual etc.
Independent_Good5423@reddit
Anything dct is automatic honestly
mrkprsn@reddit
They refer to those as "manumatics"
PckMan@reddit
It's automatic. You just have to be mindful of the fact that it uses friction clutches. Don't lug the car, don't crawl too much and never hold it still on an incline with the throttle.
Skyhound555@reddit
So glad this comment here. It really needs to be at the top.
DCTs function like automatics, but should be operated like a manual. It also has its own brand of driving satisfaction imho.
heyitsYMAA@reddit
Yeah, and this is where it is helpful for even non-car people to know what some of the differences are between DCTs and traditional automatics. If someone buys a DCT and treats it like an automatic it won't last nearly as long as they're expecting and it won't drive as smoothly. And they usually have shorter maintenance intervals.
The Carmudgeon podcast talked about some of these issues on a recent episode, and specifically mentioned the one Ford Focus that had a DCT in basically the base model and people weren't adequately prepared for how different they were from a normal automatic gearbox, and using that transmission was probably a mistake.
Over_Pizza_2578@reddit
Automatic. Dual clutches are always automatic, no clutch pedal
keithrc@reddit
Updoot for your edits. :)
reidft@reddit
It's an automatic but somehow worse than a traditional automatic for reliability
ahandmadegrin@reddit
More parts means more places for things to go wrong. That said, dual clutch is pretty neat and makes for instant shifts.
reidft@reddit
I refuse to believe that a transmission where people always have a list of "never do this, this, or this", or where driving in rush hour traffic can grenade them, is more reliable than an actual manual or torque converter auto
ahandmadegrin@reddit
I've not driven one, so I'm not familiar with the list of don'ts. What's it like?
I just like to watch videos on how stuff works, so I get the mechanical aspect, but not the daily use aspect.
reidft@reddit
The long and short of it is that anything related to heavy traffic is going to kill them.
My focus lived it's entire life in a small town/countryside adjacent. It never had a single issue out of the transmission. I bought it and took it to the city, I got maybe a month out of it before it started getting locked out of gears. There's three things that can cause it, the actuators failing, control module glitching out, or the clutch forks in the transmission getting hard to move, causing the actuators to overheat. There's not really a way to tell which is which, so you're spending hundreds for the actuators, then a thousand plus for the module, or thousands for the transmission itself. I replaced my actuators about 2 months ago, then just over a week ago it money shifted from 5th to 1st, blew coolant everywhere, and I've not touched it since. Thankfully I have a manual car I can drive while it sits.
My experience isn't unique. At least with focus owners there's a lot of people who've had to fight these transmissions. They shift fast and are good for performance focused cars, but for daily drivers I think I'd rather get a cvt.
As far as how they drive outside of reliability, I didn't notice much difference between it and a traditional auto outside of the shift speeds or the chattering they make when you first take off.
ahandmadegrin@reddit
Holy cow. I have a friend with a c8 corvette that has one but it makes sense for a hyper car like that. They aren't designed for daily drives and they will benefit the most from the better shift timings.
Sounds like putting it in a daily driver is a poor application of the technology.
Salt_Efficiency5843@reddit
It's simpler than a traditional automatic. The problem is the computer is controlling the clutch and can some guess wrong.
Sideburn_Cookie_Man@reddit
Yes.
Sig-vicous@reddit
Good answers already. I'd add that it's called that because it has two gear shafts with a clutch on each. Each shaft has different gears, one with odd numbered gears and one with even numbered gears.
When in 1st gear, that shaft's clutch is engaged to apply the drivetrain through 1st gear. While that's going on, the 2nd shaft is already sitting at 2nd gear, waiting for the shift to happen, with its clutch disengaged.
When it's time to shift, the clutches simply swap. It disengages the 1st clutch and engages the 2nd clutch, and boom, you're using 2nd gear. It can shift with amazing speed because of this.
While you're using 2nd gear on the 2nd shaft, the first shaft is going to select either 3rd gear or 1st gear unbeknownst to the operator. It makes the selection based on whether the computer thinks you'll need to up shift next or downshift next.
It keeps making decisions on what it thinks the next gear is and bounces form shaft to shaft as needed.
It also does some throttle control in the background, so it can rev match the shifts to make them smooth. So when you downshift from say 4th to 3rd, it blips the throttle automatically to increase engine RPM so the transition between gears is seemless.
Although manual transmission purists still prefer a regular manual, so the operator is in full control, a DSG is no doubt one of the best performing transmissions out there. You'll find that most higher end sports cars and super cars have shifted to using them more and more because of that.
SevroAuShitTalker@reddit
I knew a guy who paid a huge premium to get a stick shift Ferrari in the 00s. Made it valuable down the line, but it must have been interesting to drive. I drove the regular paddle version separately, and it was amazing. Id not want to deal with clutch control with that power
Acrobatic_Crazy_9119@reddit
It's an automatically shifted manual transmission. Ford used these in the 2017(and other years) Ford Focus. Not sure what else they used them in.
OnlySlightlyBad@reddit
If the car has 2 pedals it is an automatic, if it has 3 pedals it is a manual
JadedPass9693@reddit
It’s an automatic
otterland@reddit
It's an automatic transmission that isn't of the traditional planetary type. Every single Honda automatic is also non-planetary and they used to even be commonly referred to as Hondamatic as they were not planetary and used separate clutches for each gear.
Most of these types of transmissions offer an override where you can manually shift using either paddles or levers. In reality, most people don't and as has been mentioned, it's often just a marketing term.
I happen to really like the Honda version and I have it on two cars.
JoJoNH@reddit
An automatic that makes you happier than an old school one or, shudder, a CVT.
unwrittenpaiges@reddit (OP)
Yeah in my car search I was told to about cvt
dutchman76@reddit
Biggest pet peeve of mine, car sales people marking transmissions that you can shift yourself with paddles as 'manual', now I have to go check the pictures to see if I can see a proper shift lever and/or clutch pedal.
When someone says 'manual' to me, I think clutch pedal+shift lever that i HAVE to shift myself.
Paddle shifted automatics, double clutch or otherwise that can shift themselves are automatic.
To answer your question, the veloster has an automatic transmission, it can shift itself, it's a specific type of automatic transmission, usually found in exotic cars, they're considered better for performance.
gtiguy12@reddit
It's a automatically shifted manual transmission or ASMT
burner94_@reddit
Can you drive it like an automatic, with two pedals and a PRND selector? Yes.
Is it mechanically related to an automatic, with a torque converter and hydraulic fluid instead of a friction plate clutch? No.
ilikestuff1231234@reddit
Auto skippy
imnoherox@reddit
Oh, you should want a manual.
Especially on a Hyundai. If you get the automatic, it’s just a race to see whether the engine or transmission blows up first lol
3rdreprieve@reddit
It’s both, but also neither.
It shares almost all of its mechanical anatomy with a manual transmission, but functions as an automatic transmission.
You can think of it as an evolution of the automated manual, which is a type of manual transmission with automatic shifting and clutch operation.
Danielle_is_the_hole@reddit
It is an automatic. You have no worries. Anyone who says otherwise is stupid.
Appropriate_Cow94@reddit
Just sold one of these cars. They are just like an automatic to drive. However, they will allow you to paddle shift off steering wheel if you want or use shifter to shift gears as well.
But no clutch peddle, and kinda normal shifter for normal operation.
ZaphodG@reddit
I used to own an orange Fahrenheit special edition VW GTI with a dual clutch DSG. It’s an automatic transmission. I agonized over buying that car but it had a $3k factory incentive as a leftover. It was a $27k MSRP car I bought for $23k. Turns out, the transmission wasn’t the issue. “Driving while orange” was the problem. I got a constant stream of speeding tickets and every ricer with a slammed Civic with the huge chrome exhaust tip and NOZ sticker wanted to race.
Salt_Efficiency5843@reddit
DCT will drive like an automatic (Park/reverse/neutral). They tend to be more aggressive and jerky. It's often more of a performance option.
R2-Scotia@reddit
DCT is considered automatic
Wise-Cow-8939@reddit
It is a more fun/sportier auto it should have paddle shifters. The veloster is a neat hatch back, sometimes I think I should have gotten one over my Jetta.
alfienoakes@reddit
I still like its looks after 5 years ownership. I’ve got a basic stick shift. The ride is hard and sways after hitting a bump. However the shifting is really precise. Quite under powered so you have to change at the right time. Surprising amount of room inside with the back seats folded down.
ahandmadegrin@reddit
I rented one quite a few years ago for a business trip and it was a lot of fun.
TehSvenn@reddit
It's a computer shifted manual. As far as the driver is concerned, a modern dual clutch works like an automatic.
Stoltzy624@reddit
Automatic, but prob has “manual mode” where you can shift with the gear selector or possibly paddles on the wheel.