He also was a lousy husband and father
Posted by Meteorstar101@reddit | greentext | View on Reddit | 383 comments
Posted by Meteorstar101@reddit | greentext | View on Reddit | 383 comments
Jazz_Musician@reddit
Always the same argument from you lot. None of this is true btw
rightoftexas@reddit
Marx didn't survive off the contributions of others while not working?
DankPasta2099@reddit
Writer isn't a job?
rightoftexas@reddit
It can be a job or a hobby, making money off of it is a distinguishing factor.
AdamofSnakes@reddit
I not well versed in historical events.
But I’d believe this.
I’ve had one conversation with a Marxist. It was the most insufferable conversation of my life.
KhalasSword@reddit
As a leftist, the most insufferable conversations I had were also with other "leftists".
It is legitimately impossible to talk to people who worship the Soviet Union and China, "oooh, America is ruled by an oligarchy", but if the oligarchy is named "party" then it's all fine and cool and pro-worker apparently!
AlcoreRain@reddit
I don't know where are you from but China and the Soviet Union are the opposite of Marxism, and educated people are aware of that.
You are probably just exaggerating or straight up inventing personal experiences, like others in the comments.
wolacouska@reddit
China is Marxist Leninist and so was the USSR. You’re just showing your liberal bubble
AlcoreRain@reddit
No they are not and you just demonstrated you are just repeating what they tell you without informing yourself.
wolacouska@reddit
Please read anything about China or the USSR please, that isn’t just straight up liberal American propaganda.
AlcoreRain@reddit
I have, unlike you, because then you would know China and USSR are the opposite of the bases of Marxism.
wolacouska@reddit
This is like the people go say “not real capitalism, it’s just cronyism!”
KhalasSword@reddit
Educated people are aware, but then you have communities like r/ussr , full on Soviet Union apology and worship, and it is not alone in that.
You have the entire Post-Soviet space, which is dominated by Soviet nationalism and nostalgia.
It is, at the very least, very annoying and misrepresents the whole left movement.
arbydallas@reddit
That...doesn't sound leftist
AlcoreRain@reddit
I am grateful I have not met any of those kids in real life.
An_Draoidh_Uaine@reddit
It doesn't matter if your left or right, authoritarianism merges everything into the will of the leader, everything else becomes aesthetics as more people are killed on behalf of the leader.
FrogsEverywhere@reddit
I valued freedom of speech 15 years ago but to be completely frank with you I would trade my ability to argue with people that I do not believe I have even a entry level grasp of reality and they probably feel the same way about me and really is that worth not having healthcare I don't know. I kind of might want to have fast trains and parks and medicine instead of being yelled at and yelling at people all the time maybe free speech was a lot more useful before context collapse and everyone got the internet. I'd rather have guaranteed no medical bankruptcy for my child then like being able to yell at people you know. The old saying was you get more conservative when you get older but I guess I get more I don't give a fuck if I can have peace
KhalasSword@reddit
Well yeah, that is one of mistakes Soviet Union made, it was never going to be communist because all of the power was not with the proletariat, but with the Bolsheviks, they gladly took it, massacred everyone who disagreed like Mensheviks, Left-SR and the workers themselves.
And then this cult of personality develops, where everything is made in the name of Lenin, Stalin or Mao, which is not communism, it is nationalism.
LockedPages@reddit
Except power can't be with the proletariat because people are naturally capitalistic lol. Without the state there to beat people back into line, you will inevitably see small businesses & a new supposed class of bourgeoisie crop up. Whether they're owned by individuals or co-ops or truly own their means of production is regardless, as capital is still changing hands & capital, as it is want to do without regulation, will inevitably consolidate into a new economic stratification based upon its accumulation. This is basically what happened under Lenin in the short period he slackened state control of resources, & then the Stalin cracked down on it hard before it could further develop.
Socialism needs a vanguard state and a totalitarian system because people have an intrinsic sense of private property & looking out for their group - something the USSR spent its entire miserable existence trying to quash. If you don't have the state to beat people back into submission, they just revert to capitalism
ThrowawayITA_@reddit
I'm a dumbass but I have no idea how they basically tried to replicate the French Revolution, the first truly nationalist revolution, and decided that was a good modus operandi to abolish nationalism.
THESUACED@reddit
Methodology id guess.
SyntheticDuckFlavour@reddit
People don't realise the problem is never about which economic model is flawed. The problem was always at the fundamental human nature level: society tends organise themselves into power hierarchies. The more able always find ways to accumulate wealth, status and influence towards themselves at the expense of those who are less able. You see this in the playgrounds, schools, workplace, anime club, politics, soccer team, etc. There is no real solution for this.
FrogsEverywhere@reddit
Hey hey that's a pretty liberal use of punctuation you got there and I find your lack of periods extremely problematic that's ableism and mass what is it called what's it called you don't like ladies oh misogynistic also racist you said the word China and the correct phrase is The Eastern kingdoms with the mandate of heaven. I'm a leftist. Please excuse me I'm the one guy who everyone has heard about and is a cousin of who is scared us as a litter box and I have to go see the meow mix song over and over so my kid can poo
Brawmethius@reddit
It is from china loving marxists I learned about trickle-down-marxism.
Effectively china's current position.
On one hand you have the US with evil capitalistic billionaires and this fake promise of trickle down wealth if you grow the economy with capitalism.
On the other hand you have glorious china with... wait... a minute... using capitalism to grow the economy so everyone can have abundance and socialism later.
Also apparently billionaires can only exist from the exploitation of workers in a capital system. But if you ask them how does China have then the second highest amount of private wealth billionaires, indicating it must be running the second most exploitive system next the US. You get well those are thr correct billionaires hoarding wealth for the future of the workers.
It was then and there i realized the horseshoe theory is very much true, and the only end to end spectrum is those who accept authoritarianism under any market system and those who do not. Rest just just be deciding what color you like the boot to be.
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
That's because you aren't in the in-group of conservatives so you don't get their real hot takes.
You probably don't work with any blue collar workers
The amount of times I've been told that the solution to homelessness and crime is just to kill them all is uuuuh.... something
Radical-Efilist@reddit
No, that's because in the contest of being insufferable (as opposed to just terrible human being in general) conservatives usually lose. Honestly, these people piss me off even when we're saying the same thing because of their rhetorical style. Something like;
At least I can get from the hot take to being called a cucked subhuman in 10 minutes with a conservative.
YourTypicalSensei@reddit
Same. There's commies on my campus and I never like seeing them, even as someone who likes Mamdani and would've voted liberal
TheHeroChronic@reddit
American commies are such losers.
Wait, all commies are losers
Boy-By-the-Seaside@reddit
You're stupid
TheHeroChronic@reddit
Tankie mad!
Dog whistle always works.
disc0jesus@reddit
Stop bullying the children. They already have it difficult enough as is
TheHeroChronic@reddit
just edgy teenagers who havent worked yet mostly
wolacouska@reddit
How long do you have to work to start enjoying all the money your boss steals from you? How long before you enjoy the lack of benefits and the increasing workload with no pay raise?
wolacouska@reddit
Tankie is when commie, than you for helping make that work useless lmao
Ducokapi@reddit
The ieological equivalent of that kid who invents a new game and changes the rules as it goes by so he never loses.
andrystein03@reddit
that's how religion works
JustDontBeFat_GodDam@reddit
Even worse, they want the original game destroyed so everyone can have nothing equally.
mlag000@reddit
That's why in economy Marx is a classic like Adam Smith. Marx created no ideology, it's an analysis of capitalism. Please read a book.
WatchJojoDotCom@reddit
Adam smith created capitalism?
Manmangose@reddit
No, he is saying exactly that he didn’t. He just described and analyzed what he observed.
Bootlegs@reddit
People who dismiss Marx like this are telling on themselves.
You don't have to agree with him, but he wrote on so much. You can't understand the 20th century without knowing Marx.
Talking about Marxists is almost nonsensical because it almost always means that you in some form accept his analysis of the division of labor and dialecticsl materialism, at the very least. From there, you can take it in any direction.
ArcticLeopard@reddit
"No no that wasn't REAL rule number 86"
vnth93@reddit
The puppet called 'historical materialism' is always supposed to win. It can do this with no further ado against any opponent, so long as it employs the services of theology, which as everyone knows is small and ugly and must be kept out of sight.
FlyOnSun@reddit
Communism only works in the minds of communists.
The intentions of a system are irrelevant. What matters are its results. I really like this phrase (I forgot who said it): If by implementing this system you cause famine, suffering and death then that system was designed to cause famine, suffering and death.
mayrln@reddit
You just described capitalism, fascism and neo liberalism.
tlawrey20@reddit
Nothing better sums up right wing ideology than this. “I spoke to one Marxist (a trial of one literally means nothing) so I know they are bad people who should be insulted!”
Don’t create such strong opinions on such little evidence and logic man.
rrunchained@reddit
I went to college with a lot of Russian / Ukrainian Jews that came to the US before the collapse of the Soviet Union. Nothing would infuriate them more than the college “Marxist Club” and “Socialist Club.”
Can’t blame them. I’d be pissed too
AlcoreRain@reddit
MrBingly@reddit
Hey look, it's the guy!
xyrus02@reddit
So he gave us insufferable nepo babies who believe they made it all by themselves and are some kind of hero for the proletariat. Why so ungrateful /s
TheHeroChronic@reddit
They are insufferable.
They are just Nazis that like coffee
Lukababineux@reddit
I love how being annoying is worse than anything lol.
It happens with multiple ideology, groups and factions.
Meteorstar101@reddit (OP)
They really do follow their leaders
Z4Ber@reddit
I'm not even a communist, but can we really say that capitalism is such a great system, in this day and age? We need to let go of it, seriously, lmao.
FrogsEverywhere@reddit
I mean he just created the field of sociology and co-author analytical system of dialectical materialism and would be today at New York times bestselling author dozens of times over but he didn't try to profit off his books he also was a professor he also worked for newspapers. He also contributed the economic system that half of the world ran off of for 50 years and that one of the world's superpowers right now uses a blend of and defines their political system as Marxist. And also the opiate of the masses code is only a tiny part of the quote It's actually about how it's people in an unjust world trying to find comfort he was not against religion anyway so everything was really correct but otherwise mostly correct yes.
Proglamer@reddit
Imagine the people who think of this as a positive, lol
FrogsEverywhere@reddit
I mean. Anthropology and sociology are pretty valuable I don't know maybe you have a point I don't I don't mind if you feel that way that's okay happy Easter
Lukababineux@reddit
Personal attack truly is the best method to discredit someone's work.
KongoOtto@reddit
You should look up what he wrote about social democrats and jews like Ferdinand Lassalle.
Vospader998@reddit
You'd think 4-chinners would like Marx more based on their shared antisemitism.
Everyone remembers The Communist Manifesto, but rarely ever hears of Marx's lesser known works such as On The Jewish Question
To quote it here (not saying I agree with it, just that it exists):
Direct-You4432@reddit
Is it fair from this paragraph to say he was railing against the religion than the people? Doesn't really read to me like the bigotry, rather how a religion controls its followers. Is there a reason he picked Judaism?
damemeee@reddit
Reading On The Jewish Question solely in a antisemitic light is a extremely poor, boring, and fragmented view that completely misses the point of the essay. That being a discourse on liberal rights, political emancipation, and relations between religion state and society.
Sensitive-Let-5744@reddit
Lmao, I posted some more Marx quotes and Reddit deleted them for hateful content
PowerofMoses@reddit
I once wrote a fairly short list of bad things Kanye has done and Reddit removed it and threatened to ban me
Vospader998@reddit
Ya, I'm sitting here wondering if even quoting it just to point out it exists is enough. I've been banned for much, much less.
WoolooOfWallStreet@reddit
I already got a warning for making the same joke everyone else was making on a “might makes right argument” greentext so I’m just going to sit this one out
SnooMemesjellies31@reddit
Are these quotes from the parts of the book he quotes The Jewish Question? Ive never read it but I understand claims that Marx was an antisemite to be extremely overstated, considering the man was partly Jewish afaik.
Vospader998@reddit
As far as I can tell, what was quoted was Marx's take on Bruno Bauer's The Jewish Question. Marx does quote Bauer a lot in the book, but either Karl - or the translators - made it pretty clear when he was doing so.
I don't fully understand the message of the text, but what it seems like is a slightly less antisemitic critique of another very antisemitic text.
To be fair, this was mid-1800s Germany (or whatever state Germany was during Kleinstaaterei). I don't expect their ideas of what we considered to be "progressive" to be even remotely what we're used to.
I think Karl disliked Judaism for the same reason he disliked all the other religions, but it is at least interesting to see how much detail he gets into Judaism specifically.
Lukababineux@reddit
Sensitive-Let-5744@reddit
"We find every tyrant backed by a Jew, as every pope by a Jesuit; in truth, the cravings of oppressors would be hopeless and the practicability of war out of the question, were there not an army of Jesuits to smother thought and a handful of Jews to ransack pockets [...] The Jewish organisation of bankers is as dangerous to the people as the aristocratic organisation of landowners."
"The Jewish ngger Lassalle, who fortunately leaves by the end of the week, has lost five thousand thalers in a speculation [...] It is now quite clear to me that he – as his head shape and hair growth also testify – is surely a descendant of nggers who accompanied Moses on his flight from Egypt. This blend of Jewishness, Germanness and basic n*groid stock inevitably gives rise to a peculiar product."
thr33beggars@reddit
Tha sounds like something you’d say
Lukababineux@reddit
DeliriumRostelo@reddit
>no contributions to society
?????
AlphaMassDeBeta@reddit
Without communism who would learn that communism doesn't work?
scalyblue@reddit
Communism works wonderfully, it’s quite the perfect system. I’ll prove it to you once I get my sample group to stop fighting over today’s food ration.
Kicooi@reddit
You’re right, we should keep 90% of the population enslaved, humans are too greedy for their own good. If we share resources as a society, the masses will just fight each other over bread [citation needed] which is why it’s so much better that like 1,000 people own all of the worlds resources an enslave us in exchange for basic scraps.
That’s why I spend all my money on guns and ammo because eventually it all boils down to who can take what they need to survive.
Those silly woke commies think that societies can just, work together, cooperate, and share resources for mutual benefit. Pfft. Pure fantasy. The way of the future and all of human existence for all eternity is violence and taking whatever you want, society is a lie! Don’t listen to the wokies when they tell you that a better world is possible, that would be DEI and DEI is woke satanism.
Crovgard@reddit
Okay now give one example of a communist society that works from any period of history
Erdams@reddit
name one capitalist society that doesnt function on the labor og slaves
Garakanos@reddit
Which ones do? And no, having a job does not mean being a slave.
jzemeocala@reddit
If you spend your life breaking your back for someone else who gives your there barest of necessities to survive, that IS slavery.
The scraps of paper and the illusion of choices are just extra steps
Crovgard@reddit
Youre the same type of person who considers orderding food everyday and netflix subscription as bare necessities
jzemeocala@reddit
lol....dude, i run linux and kodi and spent 5 years of hard labor in the high volume restaurant industry....before that i was couch surfing busker, before that i attempted the appalacian trail when facing homelessness and before that i was a 16yo in music school.
nowadays im married and work as a vintage electronics tech...ive seen both sides of society and there is an extreme imbalance.
enjoy your armchair assumptions though
AntDracula@reddit
Name an organism that does not have to expend energy in order to survive.
jzemeocala@reddit
Lots of organisms cohabitate and form symbiotic relationships.
Capitalism is a form of predation to its core. It's literally baked into the system
I'd rather live in field of flowers than a den of wokves
randomacc172@reddit
a redditor
AntDracula@reddit
Kek
Garakanos@reddit
"Barest of necessities"
The median person is living like a king relatively to all previous history of society.
jzemeocala@reddit
ive heard that before and i feel like its data manipulation to get the answer you want (happens ALL the time in "research").....sure, we technically have access to cleaner water, better medicine, all sorts of techno-marvels of modern day magic, etc.... (but ya often have to choose which one is the most important)
and it sure feels like the average joe has to invest FAR FAR more of his time into some "Lords" investments just to make ends meat when compared to the rather relaxed life of a serf (i wanna only work lazily for half the year to meet my needs like they did)
and the quality of life gap from the rich to the poor is INSANE compared to all previous eras of history.....far wider than even right before the french revolution
not to mention all of the ways you can lose your freedom for good and become an exception to the 13th amendment if you dont stay in line. (our leaders sure do love that $1 a day labor when they can get it... an arizona senator even recently claimed the states economy would collapse if they let out all of the non-violent drug offenders)
The truth is, the rich today live like gods compared to former times....and we could all live with surplus and abundance in leisurely content if it wasn't for their ever-increasing avarice.
instead, every year it gets harder and harder for the common folk to get by while the swine that preside over us lavish in gluttonous luxury with a level of self-indulgence that would make even Pope John XII turn his head away in idignance.
and thats my rant for the day
Erdams@reddit
Just to name the most capitalist of them all USA. Their riches was built on slaves, ethnic cleansing and Destruction of nature. They continue to use war as a medium to supress other countries and extract value from their natural resources and labor. This is a typical story for capitalist society. :)
LockedPages@reddit
Except everything you just listed isn't an inherent issue of Capitalism, that's literally just how states throughout history work - & even then you are oversimplifying if not flat-out misrepresenting.
Like for one, slavery wasn't a domestic economic driver in the Antebellum South. It made lots of money, yeah, but only for a select few group of people and depressed wages for everyone else. Slavery is economically unproductive in the long term, as it's rarely reinvested back into the local economy & the slaves themselves are economic dead-ends. This is unlike employees & laborers where their wages are spent back into the economy & drive local development & production.
As for everything you listed, all Socialist countries did it on the same level if not worse than arguably Capitalist countries. For the USSR alone, search up the gulag system, the various ethnic relocations & genocides the Soviets did within their borders, & the Aral Sea. For The Eastern Bloc was littered with genocidal regimes that ethnically cleansed various regions within their borders & wantonly abused their natural resources. Russia did it to the point that they are now beholden to said resources, & if it weren't for those resources like hydrocarbons Russia would be a second-rate power at best on the world stage.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Before I do, I should say that most if not all 20th-century "communist" states (USSR, China, Cuba etc.) described themselves as socialist, a necessary transition phase from capitalism to communism, not as having achieved communism itself.
That said:
Cuba has high literacy rates (99.8%) and a healthcare system that maintains a life expectancy comparable to or higher than the United States. It has sustained these systems for decades despite a long-standing U.S. embargo.
Under Thomas Sankara, in just four years (1983–1987), Burkina Faso vaccinated 2.5 million children, planted 10 million trees to stop desertification, and achieved food self-sufficiency by redistributing land to peasants. Sankara was so successful that he was assassinated with CIA involvement.
Despite its eventual collapse and well-documented human rights abuses, the Soviet Union transformed from a primarily agrarian society into a global superpower and the first spacefaring nation within 40 years.
Vietnam has seen significant economic success and poverty reduction in recent decades, though like China it has moved toward a socialist-oriented market economy.
Crovgard@reddit
"Okay now give one example of a communist society that works from any period of history"
>Cubans have low wages and want to leave the country en masse
>lasted only 4 years
>"Despite its eventual collapse"
>Vietnam's success due to introduced market reforms
kek
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Did you read the whole post, or are you being obtuse on purpose?
Cubans are suffering due to long-standing US sanctions, and the designation of Cuba as a State Sponsor of Terrorism, which limits access to international credit and oil. Hence the frequent nationwide blackouts due to crumbling infrastructure and fuel shortages - not a fault of internal governance.
Yes, Sankara only lasted 4 years. Because he was killed. Not because communism.
Yes, Soviet Russia collapsed. Lots of reasons why, but a big reason was their attempt at modernising the economy by introducing limited free-market elements. It dismantled the old command economy before a new market system could take root, resulting in catastrophic shortages of food and consumer goods. Attempting to keep pace with US military spending, and the Chernobyl disaster also played a part, as well as the populace's general unhappiness with the authoritarian ruling style. Lenin actually said that Stalin was not a communist, and should not be allowed to take charge of Russia. I expect lots of pushback on this answer.
And yes, Vietnam has been making market changes which have benefitted them, but you can't attribute their overall success to that.
MightyTurianEmpire@reddit
It’s so insane to see how long the us has had sanctions on Cuba. They won’t let up for one second. And I just wonder why continue sanctioning them? why not remove embargos?
SlashOrSlice@reddit
Cause they're still socialist
MightyTurianEmpire@reddit
😔
Defiant_Orchid_4829@reddit
Vietnam’s market reforms aren’t even a gotcha as Vietnam was in a feudalist mode of production pre independence:
Kicooi@reddit
SchteveSchpalpatine@reddit
Hello, victim of the adult literacy crisis
LockedPages@reddit
I like how when people want to point to Cuba as a sign of socialism's feasibility, they only ever mention literacy rates and healthcare. Not how it's economically limping along (the US embargo can be blamed yes but the entire rest of the world can still more or less trade with Cuba, so it's not an excuse), has a government with enshrined autocracy & suppression of the public when they want change, deals with omnipresent corruption, & has seen literal millions of its own people flee for greener pastures in the US. Like if this is what success looks like then I don't want it
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
U.S. legal restrictions create a chilling effect on international financial institutions, which fear U.S. sanctions for engaging with the Cuban economy. It affects them in more ways than legal.
Also, I don't want to absolve the Cuban government if their crimes, but it is worth remembering that states reppressed by other, more powerful states almost invariably suffer from militarism and despotism.
AntDracula@reddit
God you people can't help yourselves from doing the meme.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
You saw me say "described themselves", yeah?
Santaklaus23@reddit
Under Batista, who was a black man, Cuba had an excellent health care and educational system. White men Castro and Guevara ruined it all.
Glonos@reddit
That is awful for the shareholders.
MattMxR@reddit
I don't consider myself a communist, but you know the world stage today is extremely different compared to the periods of history you're probably thinking about, right? The reason the Nazi party as it was in the 30s and 40s could no longer exist today is the same reason Soviet/Sino-era communism as it was could no longer exist (which is, again, probably the period of time you're thinking about).
You can't keep pointing to famines in the 50s as though our modern social values and globalized economy wouldn't drastically alter the outcome if we tried something similar today. A resurgence of communism today would look very different than it did 70 years ago, just like the resurgence of fascism looks VERY different than it did in WW2.
zweifaltspinsel@reddit
A recent example is Venezuela after Chaves took power. From one of the richest countries in Latin America to one of the poorest in about two decades.
csharpminor_fanclub@reddit
cuba is doing alright despite usa's best efforts
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
US efforts are prevailing, unfortunately. The country cannot sustain itself because of US sanctions, and as a result there's been a brain drain.
AntDracula@reddit
Crazy, they can only rely on assistance from capitalist countries to survive.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
How did you get that from what I said? Do you know what a sanction is?
airfryerfuntime@reddit
No they aren't. Cuba wasn't even doing that well before the Cuban missile crisis. That country is beyond fucked, and unfortunately there isn't really a coming back from it without a complete support from another 1st world country, which just isn't happening.
dudecab@reddit
Kerala, India, 1950s to presen
cookieraider01@reddit
Kerala is a social democracy not a communist state
Craftsearcher@reddit
Communist state is an oxymorom
theduderedditorguy@reddit
Somewhere, sometime in the stone age.
TheReverseShock@reddit
Earliest system is a favor based economy. Communism is a relatively new concept.
theduderedditorguy@reddit
Communism is just a crappy attempt at mass Tribalism.
Due_Title_6982@reddit
There were plenty of them that worked, maybe they werent the richest overall but they worked
Ephsylon@reddit
China
Kicooi@reddit
Define “society that works”
AriyaSavaka@reddit
"you own what you can defend" Max Stirner type shit
THEGREATESTDERP@reddit
Is this guy being serious?
spiritofporn@reddit
Whereas in a communist system, 99% of the population is enslaved. The rest are party officials.
Kicooi@reddit
Me when I don’t know how rapid industrialization affects a society
AntDracula@reddit
You can literally always tell
spiritofporn@reddit
I'm sure you're very knowledgeable. You're a communist redditor after all.
AntDracula@reddit
Lenin: those are rookies numbers, you gotta pump those numbers up!
Teknevra@reddit
So basically, every YA novel, from the 2000's?
cruyff11@reddit
leftists memes be like:
Separate_Dealer9539@reddit
if i say it sarcastically enough and stereotypically enough it will work this time
Kicooi@reddit
I’m not being sarcastic. Buy guns. Buy ammo. Buy land and grow your own food if you can. Buy canned food and water. They’re the only things that will be worth anything in the future. Society is a failed experiment. Its collapse is imminent. Take care of yourself and your family. If you’re lucky enough to have a close enough group of friends take care of them too, but keep a close eye on them. Don’t trust them. A band of neighbors is dangerously close to society, and such a thing is always bound to fail. Be wary of anyone offering cooperation. Protect what you have and take what you can. The laws of nature are all that prevail in the end.
scalyblue@reddit
Acknowledging true communism isn’t tenable in a human-run society with resource scarcity does not necessarily mean that you are okay with things as they presently are.
Supreme_Lord_Cola@reddit
careful, the redditor brain has a difficult time understanding nuanced opinions
_Stealth_Hawk@reddit
DefinitelyNotDonny@reddit
I love the “communism doesn’t work” crowd just willfully ignoring that capitalism is driving us full speed into extinction.
Stunning-Drawer-4288@reddit
I always wonder if you guys actually mean “extinction” when you’re doompilling.
Even in the worst case scenario of your neo-Malthusianism, logically, human population would decrease in the face of scarcity, driving down consumption until availability and consumption enter equilibrium
You guys don’t actually mean extinction, right?
Jesus__of__Nazareth_@reddit
We live in a world where civilisation-ending weapons were invented in the 1940s.
It's sheer luck that they weren't used en-masse in the 1960s.
Who knows what horrors beyond comprehension we've invented by 2045?
NoShit_94@reddit
Surely you don't blame capitalism for that, considering the country with the second largest arsenal of nuclear weapons was the Soviet Union and now Russia.
Direct-You4432@reddit
If you're living in a third world country, climate change is very much is that.
> human population would decrease in the face of scarcity
The other people that do die don't exactly feel happy about this.
Njorord@reddit
I'm sure humanity will survive, but extinction is an easier way to express the scale of calamity that awaits us. Because, well, it kind of IS an extinction event. Billions of individuals may die, and many ecosystems and species will be destroyed.
TheReverseShock@reddit
No one said capitalism works. More than one thing can be bad.
TFreshNoLimits@reddit
What does work then
nandru@reddit
us, 9 to 5
TFreshNoLimits@reddit
I'd kill for 9-5, my job is 9-7
RunInRunOn@reddit
That shit Zohran Mamdani is doing
AntDracula@reddit
LMAO
TFreshNoLimits@reddit
How many taxes has he thrown on the middle class thus far? What's the worst one out of all of them?
Stunning-Drawer-4288@reddit
Spoiler: nothing. At least without massively compromising human free will
AntDracula@reddit
There are no solutions, only tradeoffs.
Stunning-Drawer-4288@reddit
Agreed. For as unbelievably complicated as govt, international policy, and economics are, it’s frustrating to have people who unironically think that communism is just a finger snap and everyone gets a free switch 2 and never needs to work.
Like what decision in life is ever that black and white?
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
The key is giving people that free will. Something they are frequently denied under capitalism. But this is simply an argument for liberalism, not necessarily communism.
AmbitiousEconomics@reddit
That's the neat point. Capitalism denies freedom to most people, communism denies it to even more. Even anarchism denies it to pretty much everyone.
As long as resources are limited, freedom is limited. So the question becomes how do we become post-scarcity.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
You're equating free will with prosperity I feel. Valid point in that regard, but not regarding free will
Testing_things_out@reddit
Something in between. Like socialism. Or Social market economy.
thegimboid@reddit
That would work in the real world across an entire society?
So far nothing.
Just because nothing works doesn't mean something does.
PrrrromotionGiven1@reddit
Best you can get is probably some kind of high trust social democracy where very few people exploit the deal because of ingrained cultural values
We are rapidly running out of any high trust societies in the world today, not without reason. If you think everyone else is cheating the deal, you won't honour it yourself either. This is killing us faster than economics or the environment ever could.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
I've been saying this for a while. The perfect human model likely looks something like this (in a perfect world):
Democratic governance: a system where power is exercised through transparent, accountable, and participatory processes, with citizens at the center of decision-making. Relies on rule of law, protecting human rights and minority interests, and ensuring free elections.
Regulated market economy: private ownership and competitive markets coexist with government oversight to correct market failures, ensure fair competition, and protect consumers.
Universal basic floor of income or services: a shift in social security from reactive systems toward proactive, universal models designed to ensure a decent minimum standard of living
Strong antitrust enforcement: more aggressive merger reviews, higher fines, and a focus on digital markets and labour
Worker representation in corporate governance: including employees directly on company boards to influence decision-making, enhance transparency, and ensure worker interests are considered
Environmental cost internalisation: incorporates the hidden, external costs of production such as pollution, climate damage, and resource depletion into the market price of goods and services
Transparent institutions with high civic participation: defined by open government principles, where transparency, accountability, and citizen involvement are prioritised to build trust and improve governance
Jesus__of__Nazareth_@reddit
Often I speculate that there probably are a good number of alien societies out there who do live like this, with hardly any war or strife, and I think it must be rooted in the type of animal they evolved from.
As in, humans are depraved, violent, angry pricks because we essentially evolved from chimps. A violent and chaotic species lucked into hyper-intelligence and stayed violent and chaotic.
But what if sloths or octopuses or some more peaceful animal type became really intelligent? Would their civilisations fight each other like ours do?
Njorord@reddit
Definitely an interesting thought experiment, but I would caution against viewing humans are irredeemable violent and depraved beings. That's just how you end up in doomerism.
Are we violent and depraved? Yes. Almost every animal needs to be able of some level of anger and violence to survive. We are also incredibly social, and have an outstanding sense of compassion, solidarity, and empathy. Our real strength and the reason we are at the top of the world as a species is our collaboration.
So yes, we can be angry, selfish, and violent. And yet, we have built complex frameworks for justice, ethics, morality, etc. So we're not hopeless, it just means we aren't perfect beings. Which is fine.
Jesus__of__Nazareth_@reddit
Oh no, I do see how capable we are of love, happiness and cooperation. But the chaotic violence within us is a tumor that refuses to go away, and seems to inevitably corrupt anything good we create.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
We didn't just luck into intelligence though, we developed it because it was necessary for survival, just like the rest of our traits
Njorord@reddit
Well, I am a communist and this is exactly what I want. The only difference is that I go all in on the worker part and say we should make company boards entirely worker governed. I mean, do people really think communists want "mm yes, let's make a dictatorship where everyone is poor, the ideal society." No lmfao, we also want a free, fair, democratic society.
The difference is that leftist analysis understands that as long as there's a group of people that wield unchecked economic power (the capitalist class), they WILL use that power to gradually erode institutions and destroy the regulations that keep them in place. It's not because they are evil. That's just what their class interests are; to generate more wealth. So, just don't let anyone have that much economic power. Decentralize it. Democratize the economy. That's the project of socialism.
Kflasdfplshg@reddit
but there has to be some degree of political centralisation to achieve any meaningful progress as a civilisation. Sure, it would be awfully fair if people could own the factories they work in, but how would this perfect communist nation implement any sort of grand strategy?
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
If this is what you want, you are not a communist you're a socialist. Which is fine
Njorord@reddit
Oh no, I do want the post-scarcity world communism envisions. Classless, stateless, moneyless. It's just that socialism is the first step towards that, so that's what I focus on in my rhetoric.
Ephsylon@reddit
Star Trek. You kinda need to get rid of scarcity.
undefined-username@reddit
Good ol feudalism. nothing beats feudalism
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jakarta_Method
But it's totally doesn't work guys
JJJacobalt@reddit
Why didn't their superior economic ideals allow them to build the means to defend themselves?
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
Lmao that's solid bait
Highly recommend learning how to read someday
JJJacobalt@reddit
Communist rhetoric vs bullet, who wins?
Spiritual_Parking_70@reddit
It doesn't work and humanity is thriving. Look around.
DefinitelyNotDonny@reddit
I can’t tell if this is sarcasm
Shaponja@reddit
An awful lot of billionaire bootlickers here
AntDracula@reddit
You can literally always tell
airfryerfuntime@reddit
That's because they don't want to have a discussion, they just want to be right.
theduderedditorguy@reddit
Communism doesn't work. Full stop. Capitalism at least has that over it.
CaseroRubical@reddit
because everything must be black or white, there's no place for nuance in today's political climate
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Lmao, "communism doesn't work" crowd forgetting that there has never been a functioning communist state that wasn't crippled by attacks from capitalist countries
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Lmao, "communism doesn't work" crowd forgetting that there has never been a functioning communist state that wasn't crippled by attacks from capitalist countries
fenixmartin@reddit
Are you blind, or did you just miss the giant ass continent called China?
The country was not only poor af but also killed millions of its people during the Great Leap Forward. The only reason it survived is because the US decided to trade with them in exchange for cheap labor, and here we are now in the present, where China is more capitalist than America.
All I'm saying is that communism only "works" when there's a huge capitalist country backing it.
rationalsarcasm@reddit
Well if that's the logic we're using billions more have died under capitalism...
I mean the east indie trading company alone killed like 40 million people. And that was a private company lol
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
When China does something bad: Communism
When China does something good: Capitalism
Open the schools
fenixmartin@reddit
So straving your own people to prove communism works is a good thing?
Help me out here, what are you saying?
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
You don't have a basic understanding of any of the words you use, let alone an understanding of the complex economic and political structures within China
fenixmartin@reddit
Brother, I live in SEA, I studied and major Economics in college, China was and is still part of our study and mutiple papers proved that China's economic boom is from the fact that the country is using capitalist reforms in its country
You're like a patient telling a doctor what medication they should have in my eyes.
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
No economist would claim that "capitalism" is the reason for the economic boom of China.
China was so subjugated during WW2 and after by so called moral capitalist nations that they literally had a revolution....
China, a centrally planned economy with no rpi ate land ownership is only held up as an example of "capitalism good" by those in the West as a desperate attempt to not grapple with why China is overtaking the US as the biggest economy on earth and a leader in scientific advancement in dozens of fields
fenixmartin@reddit
Man yapped and said nothing. stop using big words that you don't know the meaning of. You're confusing economics with politics
China's Economy is basically a mixed economy or, to be more precise, a socialist market economy in name only but in reality a totalitarian capitalist-run society, where you could do heinous shit, but as long as you keep the GDP from going up or tarnishing their image, they won't touch you. You get free healthcare, unemployment checks, maternity leave, etc.—basically what you get from socialist-run countries.
You can never truly own land; the government only loans it to you, and it expires depending on how the land will be used, like residential gets 70 years, commercial 40 years and so on.
The CCP has a say on its laws, and as a citizen you have no power or say in politics unless you have a degree in it; even then you could get censored if you say the wrong things that the party sees as negative, so the masses stay uninformed unless given information.
The West glazing China's economy on how "great it is" when in reality China's economy is under a constant state of rupturing since China has racked up a debt of 300% of its GDP; for comparison, the US is at 121% debt of its GDP. The only reason that's not talked about is because it's a total shit show for both us economists and policymakers, since the CCP "doesn't track its debt, therefore it's debt-free" is starting lose its charm as a defense, and economists and policymakers are at a standstill on properly tackle the problem without popping the bubble
See what I did there? I just explained a "lifelong career of research" in a few sentences. Jesus, talking to you is like talking to a person who's anti-vax.
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
My ribs, the projection starts early. Let's buckle up for the rigorous analysis from the econ major
"It's not a centrally planned economy, it's just a totalitarian run capitalist economy where the government makes decisions and intervenes in the market for whatever reasons I'm imagining. That's totally capitalism"
"Welfare programs are socialist"
Holy shit lmfao this is the worst larp as an economist I've ever seen
No private land ownership, a cornerstone of capitalist states
"China is big brother from 1984, yet again when I can describe anything in China as bad, that's the communist part of China" lmfao
"Also the citizens are mindless drones and sheep, incapable of basic literacy, political understanding or informed political decisionmaking.
I am able to summarize the governance system of over a billion people with a meme quote"
HOLY SHIT LMFAOOOOO YOU CANT EVEN MAKE THIS UP, THIS "ECON MAJOR" JUST CONFLATED TOTAL PUBLIC AND PRIVATELY HELD DEBT IN CHINA TO THE US FEDERAL DENT TO GDP
10/10
No notes
You have never even read the Wikipedia page of "Economics", let alone went to school for it
That is actually hysterical
fenixmartin@reddit
Alright, keep larping bro, the data sets that you've given me are outdated af and Wikipedia of all places to get your source what are we, twelve?
Also yes, if you're wondering welfare does in fact branch in socialism, I didn't know that people assumed that it's not since this is basic common sense in my country or probably cause ur an American or on a country with poor education who doesn't know the branches in economics. Didn't they teach you basic economics in high school?
Nice of you to strawman my argument btw, love how you dodge and weave some topics that you don't wanna talk about like how China refuses to count its debts meaning it's probably higher than it already is or concluding that Chinese citizens are mindless drones when I've only said raw information of news there is hard to get there unless you have a VPN that will get you arrested (I should know I once lived there), it is still a crime btw to voice out your opinion in China without a degree on that topic btw so if I pull out my degree and you don't have yours you'll get arrested or fined.
Seeing on how our conversation pan out I'm convinced that I'll never convince you in an economic sense on why China is not the country you think it is, guessing I should've tackled this in a psychological way to give you basic understanding of the human psyche.
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
This was one of the weakest attempts at saving face I've slever seen on this website lmao
Hahahaha
Oh wait you're serious, let me laugh even harder
LMFAOOOOO
Welfare is a branch of socialism
The things people say on Reddit while LARPing as an econ major
Didn't even bother reading the rest of your comment
10/10 you'll get em next time champ
Try maybe having chat GPT write your whole argument for you instead of using the Google AI summary for your argument points (the 300 million figure pops up when you search China debt to GDP)
fenixmartin@reddit
Getting you admitted you've lost the argument then.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Most if not all 20th-century "communist" states (USSR, China, Cuba) described themselves as socialist, a necessary transition phase from capitalism to communism, not as having achieved communism itself.
jnf005@reddit
Bruh China under CCP didn't transist from cpitalism to communism, it's the opposite.
I freakin studied Chinese history in Highschool and one of the chapter was "Reform and opening up"(改革開放). After the insane Cultural Revolution, which is political infighting attach with extreme communist policy, leading to death millions of people with starving and murder, drove away or killed vast majority of highly educated people, the madness only stop after Mao was dead. Under Deng Xiaoping, CCP pivited from hardcore communism to socialism in name and capitalism in action, only that the CCP gov have a very strong hand in the market to align with policy.
Saying them using socialism as a transition phase from capitalism is insane talk.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Okay fair point, shouldn't have lumped China like that, as the context is different. The point I was going for was that China never achieved communism
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Chine is frequently cited for its rapid economic growth, but its current success relies heavily on adopting market-based capitalist reforms
fetish_fucker@reddit
source: trust me bro
SnooMemesjellies31@reddit
He made enormous contributions in fields other than economics, like Historical Materialism for instance. If you asked any modern historian, the historical lens and method of analysis they would use the most is undoubtedly invented by Marx. I think people forget that he is a seriously impactful and accomplished academic outside of his political perspectives, and you don't have to be a communist to have benefited from it.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Cuba has high literacy rates (99.8%) and a healthcare system that maintains a life expectancy comparable to or higher than the United States. It has sustained these systems for decades despite a long-standing U.S. embargo.
Under Thomas Sankara, in just four years (1983–1987), Burkina Faso vaccinated 2.5 million children, planted 10 million trees to stop desertification, and achieved food self-sufficiency by redistributing land to peasants. Sankara was so successful that he was assassinated with CIA involvement.
Despite its eventual collapse and well-documented human rights abuses, the Soviet Union transformed from a primarily agrarian society into a global superpower and the first spacefaring nation within 40 years.
Vietnam has seen significant economic success and poverty reduction in recent decades, though like China it has moved toward a socialist-oriented market economy.
MuerteEnCuatroActos@reddit
Hilarious. Cuba was quite literally capable of all those programs specifically because of the massive amount kf financial and material aid it received from the Soviet Union. You can literally see with how Cuba crashed and burned after the Soviet collapse, it was as transformative as it was unsustainable, available only to it because Moscow wanted an ally that close to the United States.
While Sankara himself was a Marxist, Burkina Faso under him was not communist, it was a military government. And his movement involved socialists, nationalists, and populist alike. In fact the only ideology he espoused for Burkina Faso were pan-Africanism and anti-Imperialism.
And are we really going around Russia's rapid industrialization as well as China and Vietnam's rapid economic growth? The latter two grew because they have become state capitalists. And Tsarist Russia for all its ills was a bonafide great power already undergoing industrialization, the Soviets merely pushed it through with brutality characteristic to Russia with a speed only a totalitarian state can.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
No, not going around that with Russia at all. Russia is so tenuously communist at all points, and I don't wish to defend it.
Your other points are valid too, but I'd contest you on the Cuba point if I had time to collate all the info on it
onarainyafternoon@reddit
If you want an example of a society where communism truly works, you should try reading The Culture series of sci-fi books by Ian M. Banks. He does a really good job of showing a society that's money-less and government-less, where everyone is strictly equal. Tons of advanced technology in that series, though. Also FTL travel and super-intelligent AIs. I really think that sort of thing would be needed for it to work.
LAwLzaWU1A@reddit
I don't think a society in a fantasy novel is a strong example that will persuade many skeptics.
mariojw@reddit
You don’t get it. Everyone in the my little pony universe is happy all the time.
Rikkushin@reddit
So it needs to be fiction in order to work? Crazy
HazardBorne@reddit
Just needs a willing society imo
Rikkushin@reddit
Kinda like a coalition of the willing?
Xortman096@reddit
Yea. And a lot of transhumanism, of course
AlcoreRain@reddit
Communism hasn't and will never be tried. Our capitalist overlords won't allow it.
That's why they need to control social media and put the blame on imaginary enemies and distract/divide us.
Capital_Pick3604@reddit
Just ignore the soviet union
AlcoreRain@reddit
That's not communist and you should know it.
RaiderCat_12@reddit
Read a fucking history book. Seriously. I do not mean this in an insulting way, just read about the revolution of 1917 and how the communist rulers quickly realized true communism as described by Marx could never feasibly work and adapted to make the closest approximation, which also happened to last less than many people’s lifespans.
AlcoreRain@reddit
Yeah, I know they didn't try Marxism, that's the point buddy. Power corrupts, you don't need a book to understand that I think.
RaiderCat_12@reddit
You willingly misunderstood what I was saying too! What I’m telling you is that they did try implementing it, and it simply didn’t work.
AlcoreRain@reddit
Oh yes! I am sure these power hungry corrupt dictators did their best in good faith!
SquegeeMcgee@reddit
The so-be-it onion had strict government, and leaders who were in charge of resource distribution. That's socialism. Google communism definition
Capital_Pick3604@reddit
They were trying to become communist
AlcoreRain@reddit
Why do you guys keep believing what politicians say hhahahah
Capital_Pick3604@reddit
The union said it themselves
AlcoreRain@reddit
And you believe what the corrupt politicians say because...?
Hitler also called himself a "nacional socialist". Their words are worthless you have to take a look at what they actually do.
SquegeeMcgee@reddit
Yeah but they never got there . That's what this guy is saying. The rich overlords will never let us actually get there and give it a shot
Capital_Pick3604@reddit
The main reason the union failed is not the rich overlords
SquegeeMcgee@reddit
What would you say the main reasons were
Capital_Pick3604@reddit
Bad economy and nationalism from the country in the union
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
Downvotes with no replies feels about right for this sort of sensible comment
BirbsAreSoCute@reddit
This comment made a few people mad, it seems
thr33beggars@reddit
I had a political science teacher who said it best:
Communism is like getting a handjob from your own mother. It sounds awesome until you try it.
Wolfgang985@reddit
Ah, okay. Your teacher meant for the opening line to be the joke. As in it never sounded awesome in the first place.
That's what he meant... right?
infectedanalpiercing@reddit
charlie-the-Waffle@reddit
was your teacher sigmund freud?
ArcticLeopard@reddit
Who tf thinks that sounds awesome
thr33beggars@reddit
Well, you never saw his mother.
ArcticLeopard@reddit
How i met your mother
thr33beggars@reddit
How I met ~~your~~ my own mother
ArcticLeopard@reddit
Marx: "Our mother"
Dramatic_Science_681@reddit
Sigmund Freud probably
Jane_the_doe@reddit
That guy who broke his arms and legs I guess.
AlphaMassDeBeta@reddit
No, I think its the other way around.
Dramatic_Science_681@reddit
Giving your mother a handjob?
Polyforti@reddit
Did he try it??
HeavilyInvestedDonut@reddit
Uh….someone put that teacher on a list. In what world does that sound awesome?
Ver_Nick@reddit
I know at least one redditor who thought it sounds awesome
CumInYoBum99@reddit
His contribution was the death of millions
Raphabulous@reddit
Ah yes, capitalism doesn't cause any death.
m0ppen@reddit
In theory and running the actual numbers, Capitalism has killed so, so much more people 💀
ArcticLeopard@reddit
"in theory and running the actual numbers" meaning limping literally every death ever under capitalism and calling it worse
m0ppen@reddit
The same is done for communism as pointed out, even Nazis. It has to go both ways buddy. And if not, capitalism still kills more.
Think for like a second and see for yourself:
One system is controlled by less than 1% of the population, the rest are cattle with varying living standards. Some are fine, others starve.
The other system is controlled by the majority to serve its own interests. It’s not a utopia but everyone’s basic needs are met.
Which one kills more? Literally kindergarten logic and your whole system falls apart.
ArcticLeopard@reddit
The main difference between marking deaths under communism vs capitalism is the data. Deaths under communist countries because the dictatorship went on a genocide spree or purge or due to the leader telling all the farmers under threat of death to stop farming and go do stuff they don't know how to do, causing famine.
Deaths under capitalism be like "a hurricane hit and knocked out a local town, capitalism has failed."
koopcl@reddit
Those are entirely valid points when it comes to criticizing communism, and I ain't gonna defend that ideology, but the same standards are never applied to capitalism and the example you give shows it perfectly. Because you grab the opposite extremes of both cases to make one seem like whining about nothing.
Ok, let's grab communist genocide campaigns as our standard. Then, instead of comparing with "how many people died due to shitty building practices in Arkansas", why not compare with the death toll caused by private companies doing large scale projects instead for example? Nestlé alone is knowingly responsible for about 10 million dead children in Africa in a 30 years period in the name of profits, there were even boycotts against the company in the US and Europe back in the 70s. That's a larger death toll than the highest estimates given for the Holodomor (the infamous "communist famine genocide"). And that's just a single company.
ArcticLeopard@reddit
And you make very valid points. And I think that a big factor is also the population under capitalist countries vs. That under communist countries.
The vast majority of countries today are capitalist and we've only had a few communist ones. Over a long enough period of time, that alone will result in a higher death toll under capitalism. No different than claiming "Chinese on Chinese crime is very high compared to other races" in China, because the vast majority of people in China are Chinese.
It would be an interesting experiment to see a parallel universe where the majority of capitalist and communist countries were flipped for the bulk of human history, and then compare to this reality.
koopcl@reddit
Yeah I agree, but my reply was running too long. But that's the thing, for us liberal capitalism is "normality", so it skews our view. We see communist history and can easily point to obvious direct causes as "death by communism" even if they contradict communist dogma (eg, Stalin ordering the Holodomor), fair enough, and also see indirect deaths or those caused unwillingly ("famine caused by shitty policies") and group them as "death by communism" which, again, fair enough.
But when we turn inwards? Obvious and direct causes we count as "death by capitalism" but even those we explain away or justify somehow ("the people this US-sponsored Junta killed were not death by free trade, it was a fascist dictatorship!") and indirect/unwilling deaths? Those we don't even quantify (people dead by work hazard? People dead by de-regulation? Famine caused by companies growing higher-profit-per-unit luxury foodstuff since poor starving masses don't pay as much? Deaths by lack of access to healthcare in privatized systems?), we just assume them as "well that's just people dying like normal in society, not something endemic to capitalism").
Which is the exact same mental exercise as some commie justifying Stalin or Mao or whatever as "well that was not real communism, don't blame those deaths on the ideology" which misses the point. We do the exact same but from across the street. Start piling up shit on the capitalist side with as wide a net as we throw on communism (the slave trade, for example: Legally endorsed private ownership over people as commodities in order to reduce production costs, do we add that one up?) and neither side looks particularly better.
One last detail though: It's true capitalism won the Cold War and communist countries barely exist (mostly in name only) nowadays, but don't forget during the 20th Century it was actually a fuckload of people living under that system. Between the Soviets and China alone, I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was the majority of the world living under communism for a couple generations. Just saying it because we also tend to dismiss it as "that weird system some weird countries had for a while" which makes the horrors and deaths look much more impressive. "The system in this one country killed 50 million people" sounds nuts. "The system that ruled the majority of the world for the better part of a century killed 50 million people" still sounds bad, but not nearly as eye-popping.
Rucs3@reddit
What about the coups US backed? The murders caused by those count for capitalism deaths?
What about unsafe practices caused by the employers in construction sites? Are these capitalism deaths?
Hoover Dam had like 1 death per day on average yet people only talk about how capitalism is great and look it did hoover dam but then also don't consider the deaths a price of capitalism
hectorhmsp@reddit
It's almost like there's a difference between poverty under capitalism and mass starvation...
Pleasant_Ad8054@reddit
That is the exact same calculation for communism as well.
snizarsnarfsnarf@reddit
That's literally what he black book of communism does lmao
Sentient2X@reddit
Dying in a system is not the same as dying because of a system. Dying because your government forced bad crop science on you is not the same as dying because the government charged you market price for seeds
harnasje@reddit
No. Saves more lifes the that it takes.
Communism.... thats onother story
Raphabulous@reddit
How so ?
Cuz up to now, due to capitalism, we can't make every research needed cuz most of them wouldn't be able to bring money.
Due to the exploitation of resources, people break both health and body, without talking about the mind states of ppl inhabiting hyper capitalistic countries such as Korea and Japan.
Talking about exploitation, capitalism, right in the tracks of mercantilism, makes us sell our bodies as we're slave of that system.
I'm not saying communism would be better on this matter, but you have to be blind to think capitalism saves life when it's breaking people and environment alike.
harnasje@reddit
Still modern medicin is something. Before you had 14 kids while 8 died. In communism you just die.
Capitalism is bleak but communism is way bleaker.
Raphabulous@reddit
Except modern medicine doesn't evolve thx to capitalism, it evolved despite it. Gotta take a look at how good medicine is doing in countries such as usa if you're not fortunate enough.
harnasje@reddit
Still better then no meds.
Raphabulous@reddit
You gotta be stupid to believe that medicine wouldn't exist under communism.
harnasje@reddit
Ask Cuba
m0ppen@reddit
But line go up!?!?!? Think of those poor shareholders!!!!!!
__El_Presidente__@reddit
Of course, that's why the victorian era was such a cool place to be a worker in.
harnasje@reddit
Still better then eating your kids bc famine
__El_Presidente__@reddit
You can ask that to the irish lmao
I9w0s@reddit
KhalasSword@reddit
That was the contributions of revisionists like Lenin, Stalin and Mao, Marx never interacted with either one of them.
And, arguably, many amenities you have are because of bourgeoisie fear of revolution, oppressed workers have nothing to lose, therefore if you keep them happy they won't revolt and overthrow the oppressors.
Radical-Efilist@reddit
Those amenities are the legacy the of the SPD and the development of social democracy, people who Marx denounced in his lifetime.
Sentient2X@reddit
And yet the most faithful applications of communism all failed until they pivoted into socialism
Thibaudborny@reddit
So... like those who wrote the bible?
Separate_Dealer9539@reddit
did he invent penicillin or something
HebrewHamm3r@reddit
No he did Duck Soup though
Separate_Dealer9539@reddit
i thought that was his brother
These-Consideration9@reddit
Did you?
Separate_Dealer9539@reddit
No.
dragonwarriornoa@reddit
Made some of the most influential work known to society
b2hcy0@reddit
*his wife
UpbeatRegister@reddit
...that dude married???
thr33beggars@reddit
Made some of his wife known to society
ArcticLeopard@reddit
Yeah, so was mein kampf. Not exclusively a flex
thr33beggars@reddit
S O C I E T Y
dwartbg9@reddit
Maybe it should've been specific - "no contributions during his lifetime".
maggiemayfish@reddit
It's so impressive how he managed to write those books and essays after he had already died, I don't know how he did it.
dwartbg9@reddit
The outcome from his books and essays - communism, ussr etc... happened after his death and not during his lifetime.
maggiemayfish@reddit
His books and essays.... which he wrote (which is to say, "contributed")...... during his lifetime
NoShit_94@reddit
Do we count negative contributions?
TheSunIsOurEnemy@reddit
Seriously. China wouldn't be at this point where they can make amazing mice that rival logitech and razer's for 1/3 the price if they didn't go commie. Thanks Marx!
ArturSeabra@reddit
U gotta be 12 if you think China is communist lmao
TheSunIsOurEnemy@reddit
Of course they are. That's why they're righteous and this world's only hope of opposing the pedo overlords that you serve and pay taxes to.
TheSunIsOurEnemy@reddit
Of course they are. That's why they're righteous and this world's only hope of opposing the pedophiles that you serve and pay taxes to.
m0ppen@reddit
By that logic, we should all vote for communists parties since they know how to do capitalism better than capitalists parties 🧠
__El_Presidente__@reddit
Real, it goes to show that Marx was onto something lmao
femboy_feet_enjoyer@reddit
Holy delusional lmao
AlcoreRain@reddit
You are the one delusional, his work was factually hugely influential and beneficial to us, workers.
CloudySpace@reddit
Yiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiikes you better not mean what i think you mean
Com-Licenca@reddit
His ideas led a nation of peasant farmers to the stars before any other. But unfortunately: communism is when no food
JJJacobalt@reddit
Then why did said nation go on to almost unilaterally vote against his ideas and the government that formed from those ideas?
Are industrialization and sending things to space the only possible indicators of success? Sounds like a pretty capitalist mindset.
oni_no_onii-chan@reddit
Votes does not mean anything you liberal brainrotted slave. Did you think american votes chose trump or internal bureocracy and powers already chose the new way of usa's rule before the elections? And americans chosing trump means american masses find their best solution for their lives?
No. And just like in trump's coming, Soviets collapse had decided by bureocratic cast that hijacked the revolution. Votes didn't matter. This result predicted by trotsky decades ago.
JJJacobalt@reddit
So, in your view, there are no real democracies in the world and every election in every country is pageantry by the representatives.
What would communism do to prevent that? Isn't communism supposed to be MORE reliant on voting than capitalism is?
oni_no_onii-chan@reddit
"So, in your view, there are no real democracies in the world and every election in every country is pageantry by the representatives"
Remember what antic greek philosophers like platon and aristoteles wrote about democracy. The democracy they describe with fear is only look like early french revolution and mao's cultural revolution.
What we have is a parliementary "democracy", a system Rousseau criticized super hard and was only existing in england before it spread to world. This is a relatively new consent manufacturing scheme, not a system to benefit "the demos".
986754321@reddit
Fuck the space man, I don't care if my country goes to fucking Mars before anyone else if I'm still stuck living in a totalitarian shithole. Like how would hearing about the space race wins improve my life as a Soviet citizen. Always that argument.
peanutist@reddit
We can tailor the phrase to your liking then:
His ideas led a nation of peasant farmers to becoming an industrial world power in less than 20 years, faster than any other society in the history of the world. But unfortunately: communism is when no food
986754321@reddit
That's a better argument, yes. But you need to go deeper since I don't think communists consider industrialization to be inherently life-improving. You don't want to be sounding like people who go off about how Hitler turned Germany from a failed state to a superpower.
And you have to admit, those famines were pretty huge. And the ideas also led to a world power just.... collapsing, that was also wild and unprecedented.
SnooMemesjellies31@reddit
While the holodomor is pretty much just a genocide, I think its important to note that the Famines communist nations famously underwent only really happened early on in those nations history, for instance there wasn't a single famine in the Soviet union after the second World War. China's great famine was no doubt exacerbated by some bone headed policies, but also, it China. Famines killing millions of people is the historical norm and not the exception.
Com-Licenca@reddit
Are we still talking about the Soviet Union?
dr_strange-love@reddit
Marx was an Antiwork mod
Proglamer@reddit
Oh come on. Marx was married, and supposedly even banged his maid. Similar level of hygiene, though, IIRC
Mbro00@reddit
Marx was one of the founding philosophers of modernism. Basically all modern philosophers base their thoughts either on the acceptance of his Lens of analysis or the opposition to it.
You dont have to like him or his ideology but his influence is immense.
Bradybigboss@reddit
What is 4chan’s current domination? When I was growing up 4chan was largely atheist. I imagine they are Christian nationalist evangelicals now?
vverbov_22@reddit
Freeloading off your friends and writing shitposts about how opressed you are is kinda based
joknman@reddit
Bro is the reason we study history the way we do now. Outside of even communism he's extremely important!
Sauelsuesor729@reddit
Funny how everyone who gets a boner at the thought of Communism is a sheltered suburban rich white college Joe/Stacy/professor who has no real-life experience while everyone who hates communism is someone who's actually lived under it, kind of like how all the actual blonde hair blue eyed Scandinavian Aryans are interested in saving Palestine while the most Latino looking mfs you'll ever meet chant "Save Evropa!!!"
sassystardragon@reddit
Oh boy a political greentext
I'm sure the subreddit dedicated to hosting all types of quivering intellectuals will sport reasonable thought-provoking debate, and surely will not devolve into a cesspool of context-less pseudological bad faith furymaxxed arguements 🤓
itwontcomeout123@reddit
Limp-Temperature1783@reddit
At least he got laid.
Tacgn0l@reddit
Love how many newfriends here are unironically billionaire simps because a pedo successfully brainwashed them
UsErNaMeS_aR_DuMb@reddit
oni_no_onii-chan@reddit
"You don't understand, I'm a future billionaire. I need to be sure these workers like me todays wont for a union so I won't pay them more in future!!!"
I honestly hate broke capitalists than actual rich people who owns a capital to conserve. It's not 70s man... if you're a worker you're a worker. American dream is so dead ruling party is making nostalgia videos about it.
seanthebeloved@reddit
You have to remember the context of the “opium of the masses” quote. At the time, opium wasn’t considered a dangerous drug. It was considered very useful and widely used for pain management. Marx even used opium.
lyfeNdDeath@reddit
Except for my uncle every single Marxist or communist that I have met in my personal life has been the most selfish and hypocritical person ever. Like I never argue with people on if Marxism is valid as an ideology because honestly I don't have that knowledge but what I know is that people calling themselves Marxists are some of the very worst.
SpeeGee@reddit
This comment is basically saying you don't understand Marxism at all but all the marxists you've met are meanies. Very convincing.
lyfeNdDeath@reddit
Yeah that's exactly what I said but I didn't try convincing anyone one way or the other
toxikmasculinity@reddit
Anyone who thinks pure communism or pure capitalism works is dumb. The trick is finding the balance. Right now we need more focus on incentivizing small businesses. Late stage capitalism is just as bad as communism.
TerranRepublic@reddit
Yeah I only know one communist who actually knows/understands what it all means. He's really nice to talk to and lends a lot of great viewpoints you don't get talking to other people. Personally I don't think pure communism or capitalism can happen due to corruption and snowballing effects but a good mix of the two that is constantly evolving has a lot to offer.
DonPepe181@reddit
It is also what USA has been doing for the 100 or so years.
wolacouska@reddit
That’s called socialism, and it’s what China is doing very effectively
TheGoodSatan666@reddit
Funnily enough. Marx himself said that he does not see himself as a marxist
bluwalrus@reddit
Close.. But acshually he was basically saying, “If that is what you people are calling Marxism, then I’m not a Marxist.” In other words, he was taking a shot at the rigid, slogan-brained followers who were flattening his ideas into dogma (no offense)
So yeah, the quote is broadly real in substance, but no, it is not some own-goal where Marx accidentally disproved Marx. It is closer to him being annoyed that people were already turning his work into an identity and a caricature while he was still alive.
Wk1360@reddit
The way people idolize Marx has always seemed incredibly disrespectful. He was originally buried in a plain grave next to others, but now he’s had a whole lot dedicated to him, alongside a plinth with his head carved in stone. It just rubs me the wrong way.
wolacouska@reddit
He was buried that way because he was super poor not because he hated the idea of being commemorated.
wolacouska@reddit
And he was talking about the same clowns that Lenin hated and replaced.
An8thOfFeanor@reddit
Nobody becomes a Marxist in the hopes of giving more to others.
nesthesi@reddit
dwartbg9@reddit
Why "Da"? Karl Marx was German, and probably didn't even give a fuck about Slavs and Russia.
Or are people that dumb and think he was Russian?
Radical-Efilist@reddit
Marx actually really hated Russia, that is to say, the Tsarist Empire of the era. Which, to be fair, was basically the North Korea of its own time.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
It's because Marx was Prussian, which people think is similar or the same as Russian
Shlafenflarst@reddit
It should be "pda" then
loki700@reddit
Should be "ja" cause he was German.
Ozuge@reddit
Is the poster just too dumb to know this, or are they on some weird redscare type of deal where they try to make communism seem more foreign and non-western?
ur_moms_boy-toy@reddit
Yeah, I can't think of any reason to associate Marx with the Russian language, either. Except . . . no, never mind, there's simply no connection at all.
Fauked@reddit
jajajaja
PetroleumMonkey05@reddit
https://youtu.be/rRXvQuE9xO4
Rupaism@reddit
Holy Marx defending the state. I guess the stateless classless society isn't Marxist.
Dootguy37@reddit
max stirner was made up by engles to ragebait marx
Mesarthim1349@reddit
Marx Stirner serves the purpose of teaching you how to become a spook, because he makes being a spook sound rad as hell
Status_Original@reddit
No he was loved by his family actually
KongoOtto@reddit
I'm also convinced the monk Martin Luther founded the protestant reformation because he wanted to fuck.
kaz_-@reddit
Because the King wanted to fuck*
TheA1ternative@reddit
Why did anon bother to type words when they already won?
KacSzu@reddit
So, funfact, richer people often had friends that had no money and came for freebies.
Especially artists were known for that
RunInRunOn@reddit
Most people in this comment section think Marx was Russian
SpeeGee@reddit
You can't fool us with these propoganda posts, CIA
Icy_Cupcake_8076@reddit
Called religion opium for the masses. Created his own, more refined opium for the intelligentsia.
ErosDarlingAlt@reddit
You've misunderstood the original quote
Icy_Cupcake_8076@reddit
I don't care
wolacouska@reddit
“I think science and religion are two sides of the same coin”
Average 4chan opinion I guess
Icy_Cupcake_8076@reddit
Since when is made ideology a science?
Automatic-Worry-1498@reddit
Most intelligent 4Chinner
Koizito@reddit
Hmmm, yes, give me more of that anticommunist propaganda.
_Stealth_Hawk@reddit
Lousy husband ofc redditors are terrible people, but father...no way, redditors are chuds, it could be possible if they raise their girlfriends boyfriend son.
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Realistic-Pain-7126@reddit
Lol this greentext really pissed off the employees at Starbucks redditors
AsterlovesTedK@reddit
"Opposed religion"
Never_The_Hero@reddit
I mean other than the "having friends part" isn't this really a better description of 4chan?
Wk1360@reddit
Unspoken but Marx also had sex, so that’s another one over them.
eximology@reddit
If you think about it Marx really walked the talk. Communism really favored moochers like him so he created a system for himself.
AngusLynch09@reddit
I have a sneaking suspicion that you don't really know what you're talking about.
mlag000@reddit
So tell me again why is Marx a classic in economy? Like Ricardo or smith ? I have the sneaking suspicion you never ever read anything related to economical history.
Hanza-Malz@reddit
Like 99% of people that are gonna comment in this thread.
mlag000@reddit
"I know nothing and will be proud". Marx simply made an analysis of a system. In economy he is a classic, like smith.
HungryRoper@reddit
As far as I understand it, the opium for the masses quote is often taken out of context. Opium didn't have the same connotation that it does today when it was written. It's less a mind dulling addictive drug, and more medicinal comfort.
Hippocalypse44@reddit
Exactly this. Iirc Marx, despite being an atheist, understood that religion was a bright spot in many people's bleak lives and offered them the comfort and hope needed to go on, which is why it was especially despicable when it was used as a method of control.
HungryRoper@reddit
Ah yea, that last part is really important and I missed that part in my comment.
Arstanishe@reddit
he also went to inter-war Germany and inserted himself into all socialist groups, then proceed to troll and push other people that opposed him. only after he was ousted out he went and settled in England, leeching of Engels
olisko@reddit
He died long before the inter-war period began.
Arstanishe@reddit
yeah, my bad. it wasn't the interim period, it was much earlier
Boy-By-the-Seaside@reddit
You're a dumbass redditor that has swallowed capitalist propaganda
PeachesGuy@reddit
Due to recent revelations and since this comes from 4chan, I'm not surprised by the shit "take".
Familiar-Agent9297@reddit
Is that photo real?
uberboi99@reddit
w capitalism
Birds_are_Drones@reddit
My goat