YF-23 rare footage.
Posted by HysteronProteron1@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 85 comments
An amazing design concept and footage of what could have been.
Posted by HysteronProteron1@reddit | aviation | View on Reddit | 85 comments
An amazing design concept and footage of what could have been.
urano123@reddit
The YF-23 was the aircraft of the future. The YF-22 was the aircraft the U.S. Air Force felt comfortable purchasing.
Sentinel-Wraith@reddit
Both were advanced aircraft of the future, with the logistics and agility of the F-22 beating the marginally better stealth and speed of the YF-23.
The F-22 has so far seen only limited action and is already going to be replaced by the F-47.
anonymous_3125@reddit
Speed and stealth is the trend of aerial warfare with agility taking a back seat
Sentinel-Wraith@reddit
Yes, but above all else is logistics. The US military deduced that Lockheed was more likely than Northrop to deliver on their promises.
As it stands, the F-22 is one of, if not the best, fighter in the world. And it's going to be superceded by even better fighters like the 6th gen F-47 in the near future.
LordofSpheres@reddit
The YF-23 didn't have very many benefits over the YF-22, and it had a lot fewer over the F-22.
Furthermore, what makes it more of an aircraft of the future than the F-22? Neither of them really set the standard for following fighters, apart from stealth. If you want an aircraft of the future, look at the F-35 - multirole capability, IRST and optical systems, an emphasis on range, target sharing, and data links. The ATF only dealt with a few of these, and the YF-22 didn't lack many that the YF-23 had.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
And there's nothing wrong with that.
Military history is littered with "super advanced technology that is hard to manufacturer and costs heaps" being defeated by simple, logistically scalable platforms. Littered... Every facet. Firearms tanks boats aircraft.
Vigilent24@reddit
The YF-23 is on display in the National Museum of the USAF near Dayton, OH. I just visited last week for the first time. Incredible museum.
It was challenging to get a good photo of this plane and a few of the other modern fighters due to their large size and the organization of the models on the floor.
TrotskyBoi@reddit
There are so many amazing aircraft in that hanger, let alone the rest of the museum.
PanFam69420@reddit
The stairs for the shuttle make a good vantage point
egguw@reddit
there's also one in torrance, CA
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
Too bad the flight gear isn’t displayed with it…
surSEXECEN@reddit
Woah - that’s non-standard. What’s the deal with that?
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
It was an advanced integrated suit system that incorporated comms, anti-g, pressure breathing, ventilation (heating/cooling) and NBC protection, etc. It was also designed to protect against +600 kt windblasts.
lolariane@reddit
Wow, literally everything about that plane was weird. Would have loved the looks!
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
Vigilent24@reddit
The most interesting part of the plane that I noticed was the engine exhaust, where the interior sides were covered in square heat shield tiles, similar to what you’d see on the Shuttle or Orion Capsule.
BenignJuggler@reddit
B2 uses tiles as well. It's old technology now
kayl_breinhar@reddit
The second one is Torrance, CA at the Western Museum of Flight in a fenced-off corral behind a car dealership. The one at Dayton is in way better shape.
They've also got one of the two YF-17 Cobra prototypes in the same spot.
beachsand83@reddit
they moved it since you last saw it, it’s in great shape now. Saw it a few weeks ago. It had a recent repaint too.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
Ah, nice. When I saw it...it just looked really sad. -_-
beachsand83@reddit
The repaint was 2 years ago January 2024 before it was moved to this spot. Both times I saw it were when I did faa written exams, and I made a point to see it. The first time is when it was getting repainted.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
Yeah, that makes sense since I saw it in May of 2019.
GodsBackHair@reddit
I love seeing the Valkyrie peeking over the top.
Elleve@reddit
Uuuuh that museum is high on my bucketlist, especially after seeing the two air and space museums in Washington.... Some day!
Jezzer111@reddit
And there’s a Valkyrie there!
critical_patch@reddit
It is well worth the trip! I’m fortunate to live within road trip distance and have been several times over the years and it’s always fascinating & I learn something new.
Elleve@reddit
Yeeeaaaah I'm in Denmark, Scandinavia... but my wife has relatives in Michigan, so if we are ever gonna visit them it has to be in combination with the USAF museum and a trip to Cedar Point 😀
Early_Koala327@reddit
Don't forget the Air Zoo in Michigan
Sanderhh@reddit
Does the YF-23 that are displayed at these museums still have RAM intact? Why can you not cut off a piece to reverse engineer it?
NekrotismFalafel@reddit
It kinda feels like a modern version without vertical stabilizers but add all the fancy new avionics would make this a sixth gen fighter.
anonymous_3125@reddit
It wont have the power generation
gwelfguy@reddit
Muscular-looking aircraft. Preferred that design to the F-22 and wasn't happy when the LM aircraft won the competition back in the day. IIRC, the airframe almost got reused as a bomber, but that wasn't realized.
claws76@reddit
Looks liks a sleeker F22 with larger engines. Why didn't it make it to production?
HysteronProteron1@reddit (OP)
It basically comes down to many elements of Northrops claims and design not being finalised by the ATF deadline. Lockheeds YF-22 was more complete and refined in comparison.
Scriefers@reddit
Thats certainly a key component of the many reasons. And that is often sited and is even more often countered with: "Northrop met all the requirements for the demonstration flights, it didn't have to flesh it out more like what Lockheed did with their YF-22!" Ok.. No, Northrop did not specifically have to do those extra "bonuses", but they damn well should have in order to get back into the good graces of the US gov/military.
The biggest reason Northrop was passed over was because of the tremendously hot water they were in politically at the time (late 80s early 90s) among peers and the powers that be. Northrop was in the throes of on-going corruption, fraud, and whistleblower lawsuits for faking test data, blatant misconduct, and padding invoices/embezzlement across multiple projects. Especially disheartening was the mismanagement and massive budgetary blow-outs from their recent B-2 development/production program which I am sure was still very fresh in the minds of military procurement officials during the ATF program.
So more plainly; Northrop was simply not trusted to have the capability of bringing the YF-23 to production level finalization and be able to met production numbers. The fact the Lockheed had a more-than-fleshed out demonstrator further solidified this belief the ATF program managers held regarding Northrop. Because, truthfully, at the end of the day, the differences between the YF-22 and YF-23 were very slim, somewhat off-setting, and somewhat inconsequential. Either stealth fighter could have become the absolute icon that the Raptor is today. But Northrop's reputation at the time, is arguably the most consequential reason the YF-23 is in museums, and the F-22 is the current king of the skies.
chefdeit@reddit
This is a very interesting and valid perspective.
That was news to me. I mean, as in corruption in excess of "par for the field" there. In fact, what I've heard in an interesting way contradicts this: Northrop was reusing a large % of parts / assemblies / components on YF-22, and while the actual fabrication of the plane is a cost-plus contract on which you'll be lucky to break even (all the profits are hence hidden in the subcontractors), the real feeding frenzy is the setup of the process of fabricating the brand-new components from scratch, with fat supply chain security contracts, and lobbying money flowing, congressional districts battling it over whose boy gets to make what.
Northrop side-stepped that whole thing like dolts. Realistically, most US's foes could be taken on in ~~an F-16~~ a cropduster but a cropduster won't get a certain Congressman's family a lifetime use of a villa & a 70-foot yacht that remain on some random company's books that is very loosely associated with some defense contractor.
Scriefers@reddit
It has been and always will be about the Benjamin's, baby.
Eocene84@reddit
Because it lost to the F-22 in the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. I wish it had won. It looked so much cooler.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
The YF-23 was faster in a straight line (its top speed is still classified) the YF-22 but it wasn't as maneuverable. It didn't have thrust vectoring, either.
But the true death knell for it was that the Air Force was worried that Northrop couldn't handle building B-2s and the F-23 at the same time, because the original order number for the B-2 was ~130 airframes (only 21 were built) and they originally wanted over 700 F-22s built to completely replace the F-15Cs, which over time got pared down to 187.
ScarHand69@reddit
What about RCS? I could have sworn I read that the YF-22 performed better in RCS testing than the YF-23.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
I think the YF-23 had an edge in thermal stealth because the engine exhausts weren't as visible at altitude from the ground, but yes, I think the YF-22 had better front-aspect stealth.
elinamebro@reddit
7 fucking hundred the fuck are they smoking??
frigginjensen@reddit
The ATF program was officially started in the early 1980s at the height of the Cold War technology race. The Air Force had thousands of aircraft around the world ready to fight WWIII on a moment’s notice. They also expected heavy losses, even with superior technology. The Soviets were falling apart by then, but still had teeth.
Sentinel-Wraith@reddit
7 fucking hundred the fuck are they smoking??
Is it really that insane?
The US has plans for 2,400+ F-35s with about 600 built and China has plans for 1,000 J-20s with at least 300 built.
kayl_breinhar@reddit
The Cold War hadn't quite ended yet, and the USAF had F-15A/Bs flying all the way until 2009.
Hell, we're only now starting to retire the C/D models, and some of those will keep flying until 2030 as we build more F-15EX to fill the gaps (somewhere between 120 and 150 total).
The US has always been all about disproportional response. We saw what the Russians were doing with the MiG-29/-31 and Su-27 and figured "eventually they'll figure out a way to crank them out cheaper and quicker," so we wanted an air superiority fighter that could knock the shit out of massed formations of mass-produced 4th gen fighters.
While the F-15 was born out of fear of the MiG-25, ATF was a project born out of wanting to outclass the Fulcrum, Foxhound, and Flanker, even though the Soviets still designed both of those planes with ground control interception in mind.
takingphotosmakingdo@reddit
GWOT money
DisregardLogan@reddit
Overall, came down to cost that we just didn’t have the means to justify.
MineOutrageous5098@reddit
I think the smart money would have been to look at the f22 and f23 and be like "Damn, I can't pick, give me 200 of each!". Like we really can't support 2 different airframes at the same time? Or maybe dumb down the f23 for export? Or maybe continue developing it into a multi tool strike fighter.
I just don't understand having the 2 most advanced airframes in the world in front of you and deciding to throw one in the trash. Do so.ething with it!
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
The girlfriend that got away😢😢😢
SmallRocks@reddit
I feel the same!
However, I do wonder if the F-23 won the competition and we’d be saying the same thing about the F-22 🤷♂️
Gluecksritter90@reddit
I doubt it tbh.
The production F-22 had a massive glow up from the YF-22, which was not really much of a looker.
A big part of the F-23 myth is rooted in how cool it looked.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
Uhhh duh. This is aviation!
The last thing you want is to look uncool!!
There's gotta be some truth to rumours like the F-117 was not a B-117 cause they wanted hot shot pilots who could never fly a B-. Or the Mosquito was better w a yoke but the air force people thought yokes were for uncool bombers.
Rule of cool is aviation! Especially military aviation
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
110%
You see people talk about the X-32 like that. All the renderings "this is what prod version would look like and it would have fixed all the issues and Lockheed cheated"
kind_bros_hate_nazis@reddit
The 23 is just objectively more cool. I will fight over this
asmrhead@reddit
Le-redditorino contrarianism.
SmallRocks@reddit
I don’t disagree. I’m just saying that we nigh think the same about the F-22 in an alternate timeline. We all want what we don’t have 🤷♂️
critical_patch@reddit
Yeah probably…we’d all be on here arguing how thrust vectoring was a must-have feature the USAF sacrificed for no good reason
BigFatModeraterFupa@reddit
Holy... damn... i never thought about that, but I think you're absolutely right!
The grass is truly always greener on the other lawn that isn't yours😅
Shibari_Inu69@reddit
I remember flying against this aircraft in the final mission in Flight Commander
riceman090@reddit
Honestly looks like the sorta thing I'd make on KSP
N79806@reddit
Takes me back to playing JetFighter II. I always picked the YF23 Black Widow.
NoDoze-@reddit
Such a cool looking plane! I wish it won.
majingetta@reddit
The design inspiration for the YF-21 and VF-22 from Macross Plus and Macross 7, respectively.
ChmeeWu@reddit
I ‘thought’ that plane looked familiar! Which came first , the ATF competition or the Macross Plus movie?
majingetta@reddit
Macross Plus was heavily inspired by the ATF program. In the anime, the background plot is Project Super Nova, a program to decide between the YF-19 and YF-21 for the next variable fighter.
HarryTruman@reddit
The director, Shōji Kawamori, and a bunch of the production team, spent time at Edwards AFB to research the ATF program and develop their story and concept art. He was personally fascinated with the real world project.
ChmeeWu@reddit
That is crazy that Macross Plus is 32 years old. It was way ahead of its time
Sjgolf891@reddit
ATF by a few years
Finicky_Cyclone@reddit
The YF-23 was too good for this world.
_badwithcomputer@reddit
It is kinda crazy that we built the F35 F22 and F23 and Bird of Prey (which I don't think ever got an F designation) all at about the same time and all could have easily been the most advanced fighter jet ever created.
Candle-Jolly@reddit
that time when Northrop reverse-engineered a UFO
cameros_82@reddit
The F-22 has some differences from the YF-22, I have always wondered what a production F-23 would have looked like. Absolutely beautiful looking aircraft either way.
TabsAZ@reddit
If you're into flightsims at all, the Top Mach Studios YF-23 addon for MSFS 2024 just came out and has a hypothetical production version included with changes similar to what the F-22 ultimately ended up with, it's pretty cool.
Blondie-Gringo@reddit
When I was a kid I had a poser of it on my wall. I was so disappointed when it didn't win.
Glum-Boysenberry-751@reddit
Rare? Lol every youtube has this footage in the reel. Stupid karma farming bots.
diprivanity@reddit
Whenever the YF-23 comes up it's required bring in the Adam Burch concept art of what an operational F-23A would look like.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
[removed]
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Numerous_Internet281@reddit
Still can't believe this thing was designed and built in the 80s/90s tbh. it literally looks like a ufo straight out of a sci-fi movie ngl. ahead of its time.
Federal_Cobbler6647@reddit
Just look at what Convair almost build in 60's. To my eye Kingfish almost look like something that could have been fighting with YF-23 and -22
beachsand83@reddit
Not rare but welcome nonetheless.
Fast-Exchange-2741@reddit
The way those engine exhausts are completely integrated and hidden from the bottom profile is just pure engineering magic dude. look at how flat it looks during that bank angle, the radar cross section must have been practically non-existent tbh.
Taptrick@reddit
What a beauty.