Struggling in France
Posted by Mashdoofus@reddit | expats | View on Reddit | 107 comments
I (42F) am Australian and moved to France 3 yrs ago to join my husband (44M) who has a niche academic job and does not want to leave Paris. It was a reluctant compromise made on both sides - I didn't want to leave Australia and he didn't want to have kids. I'm not looking for commentary about this initial decision, it's how it went because we didn't want to split up.
I'm still not "adapted" to France. I've learned the language from scratch, done the medical exams and gone back to work as a doctor (required to do 2yrs under supervision and I'm halfway through). I don't like the culture, I don't like the way the nurses treat the patients and most of all I despise the lack of accountability in the system and how any administrative task is such a struggle. It doesn't help that I'm currently doing 150% of my previous workload for 25% of my previous pay. I'm not spending enough time with my son and I'm suffering.
Mentally I find myself distancing from my husband because I want to have a second child and he doesn't. Now I want to go back to Australia and live as a single mother with my son, but I don't want to pull the trigger because I still love my husband and want my son to grow up with his parents together.
It's been a few months I've been thinking about this now, I've tried talking to my psychologist back home, a new psychologist in Paris, took 2 weeks of stress leave to reflect... And still stuck on the same thing.
Anyone out there in a similar boat or have words of wisdom on how to go forward?
vixenlion@reddit
That is a huge culture shock.
I think if you give yourself another year or two- you would be ok. Maybe you miss other things than work ? Maybe you are in need of sun and surf ?
Try a couple of long weekends in Barcelona ? Or the Canary Islands? Maybe that would boost your spirit?
therapyinenglish@reddit
I'd be interested in knowing a bit about what your psychologists have said. I am a counselor, not a psychologist, with many expat clients -- here is my perspective:
You are grieving. You didn't leave Australia with a full head of steam excited about coming to France, looking forward to the future. You didn't say to yourself, "I'm sad to lose what I have in Australia, but the prospect of moving to France will ultimately more than make up for it." You compromised, reluctantly, to give up Australia. And what did this mean giving up? Everything except your family! Your routines, your friends, your comforts, your systems, your familiarity, your culture, your food, your language. Everything. And even though you are still with your family, when a whole family moves to a new place, even dynamics within the family can subtly change from the external forces of the new place.
Life is challenging enough as it is when you are living in your country of birth, and much of the first 40 years of your life or so is spent figuring out how to make school, work, and family function in the place you are. And it's an achievement to make it happen. And now it's all gone! And I don't say this to be dramatic -- it's to underscore what an absolutely massive change and challenge it is to move, *even if you are ecstatically excited about where you're moving to.*
Concerning the original decision about your moving and his not having kids -- I'm not commenting on that, other than to say it is entirely possible that both of you are still feeling some resentment about this, even if, on balance, the compromise felt worth it. The reason I mention this is because those feelings can soften and be more easily swept under the rug over time when you can establish routines, a regular life, etc. But the move, even after years, can bring to the fore issues that have long been in the background (as evidenced by some of the emotional distance you are feeling with your husband).
Now, to the present issue. As I said before, even people who are thrilled about a move can take quite some time to "adapt" to the culture. But you can't stand it there -- the rigidity of social hierarchy and authority in medical institutions (you find the same in how teachers relate to students), the overabundance of bureaucracy, the undervaluing of efficacy and meritocracy. And what do you feel like *you* are getting for your troubles? Nothing apart from enabling your husband to continue with his career.
And is that worth it to you? You say yourself, "Now I want to go back to Australia and live as a single mother with my son." This is clear as day. I believe you that you love your husband and that you don't want your son to grow up without both parents. And yet these factors seem not to have muddied your ability to say simply what you want -- to go back to Australia.
Now, I'm going to return again to your initial decision to move, again, not to pass judgment on whether it was the right thing or not. But ideally (and this really is idealistic, but not impossible), even when a couple makes a decision that is a huge sacrifice for one person, there is enough conversation, enough being there for one another, enough understanding both each other's point of view but also one's position, that when the decision is made, there is perhaps deep sadness about what is lost, but the decision isn't made *reluctantly* (both about where to live and to have kids). The reason I mention this is that while your emotional distance from your husband is currently quite acute, I have a feeling it has been this way for quite some time. So this means there is the possibility that communication between the two of you has not been great, and there is perhaps the possibility of a 3rd option that could work for everyone (I don't know what exactly that would be, but one of the consequences (and/or causes) of emotional distancing is a kind of rigidity and narrowing of considering various options precisely because so much energy is being used to protect one's own feelings.
So, in the end, of course the decision is up to you. But the main feeling I'm getting here is some conflicting feelings about your feelings about France -- that is, there are many aspects of it you can't stand, but at the same time you somewhat question your right to be aggravated about them because you feel you should somehow have already adapted.
There is a lot of tension, ambivalence, and disconnection both from yourself and your husband going on here. I think what you need most of all isn't time to reflect, but perhaps some way of getting some wider perspective on your overall situation.
Also, just as an aside, I realize I am making a LOT of assumptions here. I don't know you, I don't know your husband, I don't know your situations. So a lot of this is a shot in the dark. But it's precisely because I find that when my clients need most is a strong third perspective on whatever it is they're going through so that they can gain more clarity on their own position, that's what I'm offering here.
In case this is helpful, I've written a bit about some issues both directly and tangentially related to your situation:
https://therapy-in-english.com/blog/my-relationship-is-falling-apart-after-moving-abroad
https://therapy-in-english.com/blog/i-moved-abroad-for-my-partner
https://therapy-in-english.com/blog/i-resent-my-partner-for-bringing-me-here
Sad-Contact5781@reddit
Hey there, i would understand if you wouldn’t answer but I wanted to ask what you meant with how nurses treat patients? Im a registered nurse here in Australia and actually contemplating moving to France. Either way, all the best to you x
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
I'll give you some concrete examples : patients restrained to the bed for complaining, soiled pts not being changed for hours because "it's already been done twice today", urgent tasks (transfusion, intubation...) put on hold for coffee or smoke breaks, general attitude of "not my problem".. of course it's not all the nurses but for some nurses the general standard is that they don't want to do anything if it's possibly avoided. It's a very different culture to what I'm used to in Australia and I'm still struggling with the transition
doc-oc911@reddit
Wow. Okay, I did not expect this. I have a friend currently doing his residency in france and he said how bad it was but this is so much worse than I could have imagined, even third world countries have better standards than this - I speak from my experiences in Sudan!
Zosmina@reddit
yeah their working standards are extremely subpar. im telling you its a culture of encouraged sociopathy
doc-oc911@reddit
I’m just blown away. Never expected it from a neighbouring country!!
Sad-Contact5781@reddit
Thanks for answering! I wonder if its generally like that in there or some settings ie outpatient can be more different. I hope your situation gets better!
Lox_Bagel@reddit
While I can’t relate with the husband and son part, I can 100% relate with the adaptation. I have been here for almost 3 years and I haven’t adapted yet and, honestly? I made peace with the fact that I never will. I don’t like the culture, I think they live in 1970 with all these letters and phone calls, and let’s not start with the bureaucracy. Technology doesn’t have its place on facilitating our daily lives. I don’t want to comment on the people bc I am afraid of offending someone, but damn, aren’t they….. peculiar? I just want you to know that you are not alone. Virtual hugs
Zosmina@reddit
I learned not to hold back anymore ,even if it makes 1000 passive observers angry. Enough is enough. this country is far too romanticized for what it is.
movingarchivist@reddit
I'm sorry to say that you compromised on things that are important to you so all you did was delay the inevitable. You won't be happy until you're living a life that feels like yours and, if you're miserable with your husband, your son will internalize that. If you and your husband are now incompatible, there is nothing that's going to solve that beyond going your separate ways. I'm not a parent so I can't speak to that piece of it but if you can't find fulfillment where you are, something has to change.
Source: Was married to someone I loved and for whom I had compromised everything and I was still miserable. Leaving was the best thing I ever did, for both of us. We're both much happier.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
yes I can see that I compromised on things that are important to me and that was not a good decision
djmom2001@reddit
So you are more important than your child? The day you made that baby is the day you have to put your desires in the back seat.
Crafty_Try_423@reddit
Yes I was thinking this. You wrote that he didn’t want to have kids and you didn’t want to leave Australia. I’m confused about whether he agreed to have one kid (your son) on condition that you move to France? In that case, that seems like a fair compromise because you did get one thing that was important to you (a child) and he got one thing that was important to him (stay in France). But if you already had your son and the compromise was he doesn’t want MORE kids and you do…then you’re the only one who compromised.
If the former, then it’s really a question of how unhappy you are in France and whether you think you can improve this. And how important having another kid itself is…is it important enough to you that you need to leave this man to find another to have the kid with, and have your son grow up essentially without his dad? I’d consider also here how an international divorce situation would work…how will you guys navigate it and how will you work out equal time with your son? I think equal time is impossible, frankly…he has to go to school somewhere and that’s where he’d mainly be. Then he could spend summers/non-school time with Dad. I’m bringing this up because there are logistical things you need to consider…you don’t necessarily just get to take “your” son (initially when you said this I thought he was yours only, from a prior relationship) and move to Australia and deny his father any time...
I definitely sympathize with the uncomfortable situation, but it’s unclear whether the compromise was unfair or not. And that does matter because your resentment is misplaced if the compromise was fair and in good faith.
Another possibility is - assuming the initial compromise was one kid & move to France - a second discussion about compromise is warranted. No more kids & a move back to Australia (or one more kid & stay in France), for example. A bit dangerous though, if having more kids is more important to you than who you have them with.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
The thing is that the past is gone now, focus on the future. Think well, stop compromising on things that matter to you, advocate for yourself and your kid. Take a good decision.
movingarchivist@reddit
I want to clarify that I don't say it to blame you. We're acculturated to think that we're doing the right thing, that that's how marriage works, and that it's all worth it. Someday we wake up and realize that we're the only one doing the compromising and we've been pulled away from our core self, from what we wanted. It takes practice to know what is something we can negotiate or even give up, and what's essential to our happiness. It's okay if that's changed or it took time to realize it. But you're miserable and something will have to change.
djmom2001@reddit
You made a baby and now your child should be your first priority. And a child should not be deprived of his father just because you made a bad personal decision. You need to figure out a way to be happy in Paris.
monochromatic8@reddit
Is the dad just for decoration? Or does he also get to be a good father and try to compromise on things for his family to be happy alongside with him? For the sound of it, he is just purely for decoration in this case.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
Well she said he didn't want any kids, so he just compromised to go back to Paris.
djmom2001@reddit
Maybe she shouldn’t have tried to get him to be a father.
nelty78@reddit
I’m French and left France and one thing I can relate to is a lot of people in France don’t want to work and somehow think it’s ok to let everyone know.
I don’t know if that’s what you meant by your comment about nurses but it reminded me of that. It’s very French and probably the #1 thing I dislike about my country.
Miss_Dark_Splatoon@reddit
Maybe people are just fed up with capitalism that only serves the rich
Brostradamus-2@reddit
France is socialist and have many benefits that other capitalist countries do not have access to.
Lox_Bagel@reddit
I am so glad to see a french person saying this! I have been having this impression since day one here and it gets on my nerves EVERY. SINGLE. DAY
psychicfrequency@reddit
Can you have a long-distance marriage and see each other every 2 or 3 months?
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
What about the kid ?
psychicfrequency@reddit
The laws are pretty strict in Europe. She can't just take their child back to the States.
According to French law, moving a child without consent is illegal and considered international parental abduction. If a parent refuses consent for relocation, a family court judge (Juge aux affaires familiales) must authorize it based on the child's best interests.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
I guess so but what would be the point if our long term goals are not together?
psychicfrequency@reddit
Because they have a child. What's best for their child? Maybe they can decide to move to another country that they both like. If you have a European passport, you can work in several countries. This is real life, and not some TikTok clip about how you should leave your spouse. If this post is even real.
Apprehensive-Ad-6053@reddit
Paris is rough these days.
Miss_Dark_Splatoon@reddit
Care to elaborate?
Apprehensive-Ad-6053@reddit
The same issue we have everywhere in the world at the moment. However on another level.
ActuatorSmall7746@reddit
Not seeing the compromise you mentioned? He got Paris and no kids, but then you say you have one son. So, I guess you meant “he got Paris and you got at least one kid that you wanted. But, now you’re miserable living in Paris and he is living in his dream place.
You don’t to divorce or separate from him mainly, because of your son. So, I am assume he has great relationship with him or does he just tolerate having a kid and is not emotional and well-being? If he is not then you have your answer. But, if he and your son are close, I think you have to wait out it until your son is older to make a decision to go back. Can you make more frequent visits back home?
Anonymous30005000@reddit
I agree with putting the child’s needs first because he IS and WAS her purpose for being in France. Same with me living in my husband’s country so we could be near his family for support while I started having kids and he professes his career. I’m older than my husband (36) but similar to OP I basically knew some things were missing in the relationship but took the jump because being a mother now or never was MY goal. So there’s no way I will move my infant son away from his dad just because I don’t overall like or fit in with the culture here or because my husband’s undiagnosed ADHD is causing negative consequences more and more since we arrived. I just look at that as my burden to bear so that the son I wanted gets to have a great relationship with his dad. If things really got bad between us we could divorce but I could never move my son to another country. We’d have to move together to a new country as coparents.
Twarenotw@reddit
I 100% understand your wish to go back to Australia with your son and get your former life back.
Please, look into the legal aspects of doing so. I recommend you ask in r/conseiljuridique if you decide to explore your options further.
Key_Refrigerator234@reddit
Never stay for the child. Your child 100% sees and hears everything it's much better to properly sit them down and explain what's going between you and your husband.
Anonymous30005000@reddit
I’d say, divorce and stay in France because he still deserves to have two parents. Only if the dad is abusive towards them would it be at all justifiable to move to Australia with him because she likes it better there.
bearintokyo@reddit
Possible way to see: try a few months back home before fully doing it permanently?
fluffychekhov@reddit
I would break this down into two different problems (baby and France) and tackle them one at a time.
The baby question is more pressing. Assuming you want to go ahead with having a baby, you should either start trying with your husband immediately or start IVF (I suppose this will affect your relationship with your husband if you decide on the latter). It might be that you have a child and this changes your perspective on France. Or you sadly don’t manage to have a baby and this also changes your perspective.
Once you solve the baby issue then you can see how you feel about France.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
I'm sorry, you already don't have enough time for your first kid, how do you think having a second kid is a good idea ?
Even if you decide to divorce, your husband has to agree for you to move across the world with his only child, and be okay to see him once a year for holidays. I mean its not like you're moving 100km from Paris. Be prepared for your kid to resent you for this choice, and I would totally support him.
Is it possible your husband might consider moving to Australia again ? I mean you already moved for him, learned a new language and started your career almost from zero.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
he says there are less than 100 people in the world in his field, and there is no one on the continent of Australia. of course he could be the first, but he doesn't want to live in an academic desert
Halo_of_Light@reddit
Both you and your husband both have legitimate reasons to be where you each want to be. I think you understand this too, but I also am confused why you want to have a second child if you already feel like you're unable to have time for the first, and your husband doesn't want another. Would you divorce, leave your child in Paris and have another in Australia?
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
He sounds so French omg! (I have a French husband)
What desert? Has he met the INTERNET? He could still communicate with people on his field.
But it's hard to judge without knowing what he teaches. It's like knowing he studies Archeology, and nobody would like to study that in Australia.
Hubby233@reddit
Academic life in Australia is incomparable to French/European academic culture. Let's be real here. Or maybe you don't work in the academic field and simply don't know this.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
I am very aware of European academic culture, specially in Italy where I studied. We had some connections in Australia and NZ, but again in Engineering or Economics. I have no idea what this guy's field is.
Hubby233@reddit
Even culture wise, Australia is incomparable to Europe. I've lived several years in Australia and work in the academic field, I know what I'm talking about. It makes total sense that her husband is unable to leave France for his specific niche specialism. The internet has its limitations with these things.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
Probably yes, that's why he agreed to have a baby he didn't want, just to move to Paris and fulfill his academic purposes. Priorities are priorities.
tropikaldawl@reddit
That doesn’t make any sense… she would get maternity leave for her second child. It is not abnormal for parents to work but still wish that they had more time with their kids.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
Maternity leave in France is only 2 months. That’s not a lot of time with your newborn. Plus She’s a clinical doctor so she probably doesn’t work the same hours as me for example 8-16h. Ofc it’s normal to want more time with your kids. I do too.
tropikaldawl@reddit
That’s why it’s not a reason for her to not have other kids. There are always ways to make it work.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
There are a lot of reasons why she shouldn’t have another kid in that marriage imo. But that remains my opinion. She’ll do what she wants.
tropikaldawl@reddit
Marriage aside, it guess it was the career thing that got me. They don’t teach a woman in university that if you pick this career, you shouldn’t have kids, or guide you necessarily to pick the careers that have more flexibility. Women were encouraged into many fields. The feeling of wanting children doesn’t vanish if it’s in you. And women in all careers are able to find a way to make it work. Discouraging her from having a kid due to her career giving her less time now that she is in France will only result in her feeling more resentful about having gone along with the decision to be in France, and nothing else. The feeling of resentment and regret will lead to more depression and problems in the family. If she ends up having a kid despite the marriage/happiness issues, then there are ways to make it work by having support around, whether it is from family or help. Seems like a fair compromise if he wants to stay in France for her to have another child if she feels it can be manageable. Her decision of course; but I don’t like the idea of her feeling endlessly punished for choices that she has made in the past.
No_Atmosphere_3702@reddit
She’s not endlessly punished by her past, but actions have consequences. I think before having another kid, she might find another job in her field who suits more her family and personal needs if she’s not happy with her current job. Adding another kid to this situation would be very straining for her. We don’t know if she has family around to help. Or if her husband carries well his dad part.
Artistic_Pear1834@reddit
Aren’t you earning significantly less ATM during the supervision stage? Salaries rise significantly afterwards. Striking out as a private GP afterwards is an option for you (focused on expat patients pops into my mind immediately). My point is that you’re in the grind phase of your career/ country conversion, things will get better financially / workload vs reward.
All working parents with young children don’t see much of their kids, you mention not spending enough time with your son, that would be the same if you were in the same stage as a doctor in Australia.
Those issues are pretty standard… however regarding having a second child, that’s a compromise you agreed to with your spouse… He didn’t want kids, you did.. that’s a relationship issue, he’s already compromised to have one, which was his side of the deal for you moving to France. Given that you seem unsettled, I wouldn’t want my spouse to have a second child under those circumstances either tbh.
Could you afford 2 children as a single mother in your ‘Australian location’? If not, then the 2nd child isn’t an option for you in either situation (just another way of looking at it).
I have no answers here, but I am suggesting other ways of looking at your situation.. grass always seems greener back home, but to me it sounds like your situation would be the same, unless you decide that you want 2 kids at all costs and could afford to it as a single mother in Australia. Otherwise it’s just a phase of life you have to get through, that isn’t unique to you: just the situation you’re in, at the moment. I think a trip back to Australia with your child to see if it’s something you really want vs it being a psychological escape valve that you turn to, could be beneficial to help get your head clear on your pathway. Best of luck.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
yes I can afford to have 1 or 2 children on my previous salary as a single mother. I was already fully qualified as a specialist for many years and worked in both public/private so had a healthy salary. salary progression in France is not great even after getting through the supervised period, also with my specialty I cannot work in a private clinic charging $$$ to expats. anyway it's not really a money issue but you are right maybe a trip back home is in order
Halo_of_Light@reddit
not OP, but I am curious how you think your profession cannot make you good money in Paris. What is your specialty which makes it not very lucrative in Paris?
SeanBourne@reddit
Gods yes. Every anglophone expat would be lining up to have an anglophone doctor.
FinestTreesInDa7Seas@reddit
That might be an easy thing to do as a médecin généraliste (general practitioner, or family doctor), but it's not a realistic idea for a specialist.
Specialists with private practices exist in France, but to varying degrees. A specialist that focuses on a specific language is fairly niche.
DJTRANSACTION1@reddit
2 things that cannot be compromised in a marriage are agreement on having children and what country to live. One party compromising on any one of this will lead to resentment. In your case, there is no real solution. it is a lose lose situation. the best way to approach this is prob do whats best for your child.
cptninc@reddit
Have you looked for any groups in your field to talk and commiserate with? I suspect you are not the first doctor to experience this.
On the other hand, your husband is probably not as specialized as he thinks he is. He should be exploring options that may help alleviate some of your stress. If he is not, you now know where his priorities lay.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
I have tried posting several times on online forums and literally have not found any other doctors from rich countries who have taken a 75% paycut to work in France. foreign drs in France are for the most part from the Maghreb countries and sub-saharan Africa so their point of reference is significantly different to mine
Illustrious-Web9868@reddit
I do know quite a few US doctors who have moved to the UK and have taken more than 75% paycuts. But they knew this when they decided to move and most of them chose this path. Is there an in between where you move out of France but not to Australia? you said earlier there was no one in his field in Australia but there may be outside of France? Assuming he speaks another language than french
rollingcasbah@reddit
I’m a family lawyer. You sound like you’re having a really hard time. However, please do not assume that you can simply take the child, who is both yours and your husband’s, overseas and away from their current home and away from their other parent because it is what would make you happy.
Secretlysidhe@reddit
I was thinking the same thing. I believe it can be pretty difficult to leave the country with your child unless the father agrees to it.
GypsyGirlinGi@reddit
I was going to say this too, be aware OP that your child's habitual place of residence is France. If you want to go back to Australia with him, you will need your husband's permission.
tropikaldawl@reddit
So I’m in a situation that is somewhat like yours, and you can definitely make it work still, but it may involve compromises on both sides that were not ones that you originally considered. I got through the impossible period where I was 100% sure that it wouldn’t work ever between us, and we are doing well together. Maybe we have both evolved a bit too.
Some other thoughts: If having another child will make you happy he has really got to consider this because a mother’s happiness is crucial in the family. I have also lived in Paris fyi the thing about France is that it is close to a lot of places too (though not Australia, that I know). I do wish I had a third child. My friend who is an aesthetician who hears every woman’s secrets said that if you have that feeling of wanting another child, it will never leave you, so do it while you can. I didn’t though, because of my uncertainty with the relationship and whether I would have the support needed.
photogcapture@reddit
I promise you, moving back will not fix whatever this is. A second child will not fix what is going on inside you!! Are you looking for the love and attention you get when pregnant? Not judging, asking this seriously. Because when baby 2 pops out, then what??? Instead of leaving or having baby 2 - Try rewiring your brain! Start a journal and write three things that went well that day. Mundane or big, write them down. Then explore what you can do at work to make your day better. Maybe the other people at work are not ideal and the system kinda sucks, but I promise you, a bigger paycheck does not help fix attitude in the long run. Work on you instead of everyone else and try to see things differently. If everything remains gray and bad, then move back and divorce, but you said you love him so work on that!!!
Plane_Philosophy1966@reddit
I am an expat. Last year I thought it was time for my husband and our 2 kids to move to my home country to be closer to my family. I had idealized the perfect life there thinking our current life wasn’t good enough and that I was miserable. We moved and things went terribly wrong with my entire family. I also had culture shock being back to my country and I realized our life WAS better before we moved. I regretted dragging my family to my country. Anyway we stayed a couple months, we left and resumed our life. Anyway I’m just saying this “syndrome” of thinking the grass is greener elsewhere is real to me. I feel like I can’t settle down and I don’t feel like home anywhere. Imagine you move back to Australia and you realize it wasn’t so bad after all and start remembering the good things in Paris. When we came back to my husband’s country I had to start making our home feel like home, start traditions with our children, hang pictures on the wall, make our home feel cozy, in order to feel grounded. Maybe that’s something you could do? If you focus on the things you don’t like it’ll make you terribly sad. What if you focus on little things you do enjoy there? Find a community to surround yourself with?
That is for the time being. And maybe one day you’ll know it’s time to go back to Australia? As I know one day I’ll go back to my country, when kids are older and I can live for myself.
expatforward@reddit
Therapist here, i think you're stuck because the decision you know you need to make means admitting the original compromise failed, and that feels like compromising your entire life structure.
I noticed you framing this as "pulling the trigger", like a violent, irreversible language instead of "making a choice about what's sustainable." For me it seems you internalized this as destruction when it could be seen as self preservation.
Sometimes people wait for the situation to become so unbearable that leaving feels justified instead of something chosen. Is like hoping the decision to be forced on you so you don't have to carry responsibility when the whole thing fall apart (im assuming in your case, that would be your son's intact family structure).
In the other hand, staying until you break completely would also bring suffering somehow, it can cause a lot of damage in the process as well.
I don't know exactly what you worked with the two therapists but imo its also important to consider what would it mean about you if you chose to leave.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
thank you for your very thoughtful observation, it is a very violent and striking choice of language indeed. I am coming to terms with the fact that the initial decision was not a good one, and that the compromise we made was not a good fit for our situation. I am definitely in that boat of people waiting for things to be so bad that I can quit, I've even thought "it'll be a relief if I fall sick with some major illness at least then I can quit legit"
expatforward@reddit
It's indeed a very difficult situation. I imagine there's even more going on than what you've shared here, there usually is in situations like this. The pattern of thought you mentioned comes from desperation, we ache for an exit that doesn't require us to choose. If circumstances force your hand, you're not the one who "gave up" or "broke the family", the situation did. It protects you from the guilt of active choice but the problem is that this strategy requires you to keep suffering until the justification feels strong enough, but that line keeps moving further away because guilt is not really based on logic.
If I was working with you, I'd examine what you're actually protecting by staying.. Is it the relationship, or is it your identity as someone who doesn't give up, who honors commitments, who sacrifices for family? Sometimes what we think we're preserving is already gone.
I think I still haven't really answered your initial question from the OP, so honestly, the way forward is trusting what you already know about what's sustainable for you. That matters more than anything else and imo building a case strong enough to justify leaving is going to be harsh.
Lost_Boat8275@reddit
How is having a second child going to make you feel any better? Are you unhappy because your husband doesn’t want a second child or are you unhappy primarily because you don’t want to live in France? If you have a second child you’ll still be unhappy about being in France. What then? You take two children away from their dad (if he agrees to it anyway)?
Consistent-Barber428@reddit
Not wisdom or advice, just a but of stoicism.
France is what it is. That will not change. So YOU need to change and stop worrying about what you can do nothing about. Period. I’m not saying that’s easy. It takes practice.
The baby issue is another thing entirely. You can change that by getting divorced and finding another man. If your marriage is indeed more important to you than having a second child, then you’ve made your choice. If not, well, you know what to do.
The thing is, you write as though you are out of control and the victim of circumstances. You are not. You are fortunate enough to have been in complete control when you made both decisions. If you regret them, change them. If not let go of the idea of the perfect and accept the good. You have a better life than 99.9% of all people who have ever lived. Enjoy it.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
yes I did have control of all my decisions up to this point, I decided to move to France and after 3 years I have a better understanding of the situation I am in. now I'm trying to make the decision for the next phase of my life. at 42 you cannot count on "getting divorced and finding another man" as a solution for having a child..
sread2018@reddit
Shocked that as a doctor you think a man is the only solution to your baby problem.
France is France. Won't change. You need to be the change
In relationships, you compromise on small, insignificant things when looking at the big picture. You compromised on life changing events.
If you've already tried couples therapy maybe its time for 1:1 therapy
Consistent-Barber428@reddit
I think you are missing the point.
You can’t control France or the French. You can’t control what your husband wants. So you have only two options, change what you think about those things or change your circumstances. That’s it. Anything in between is a waste of time and accomplishes nothing.
For instance, why not go back to Australia and find a sperm donor? If you don’t want to do that, it suggests that other things are more important to you than either moving or another child. If that’s so embrace those things.
Holding on to some idea of your perfect life will only make you unhappy because there is no such thing. There are only your circumstances, your ability to change them or not, and how you think about them, the latter being completely under your control.
Rusky772@reddit
My parents waited to divorce so I could “grow up with them together” and I genuinely don’t think it made any difference. In fact, I would rather them have split up earlier so I could have see them be happy more of the time.
MarsGlez@reddit
I have no further details…but as a son of separated parents, I can tell you it’s better for your child to have a single parent than having both not agreeing on anything.
The burden on children because of parents that think it’s better for the kids to be together when they don’t have anything in common and don’t want to be together is worse.
Also, having the capacity to be independent, I’d leave France in a jiffy. Lived 6 years there and I can understand your feeling. And to be frank, you’ll never belong as they are quite close when it comes to their culture.
Think about it, discuss with your family in Australia and feel confident yourself that you are doing the best for you (and arguably for your child too).
MiningInvestorGuy@reddit
Do you have to work? Can your family survive on a single salary? That workload, pay and environment seem pretty miserable. If you’re set in having a second kid, dedicate time to the family and stop trying to do it all at the same time. Focusing on your home will also ensure you have no time to worry about most of your host country’s issues.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
I don't HAVE to work, but I do want to work as a doctor as I have dedicated so much time and effort towards it. I was at home without a job for 2 years whilst doing the requalification process here and it was also a toll not working because I have all this mental energy to burn (that I usually use to solve patient problems)
MiningInvestorGuy@reddit
Doesn’t sound much fun based on your description. Surely going back to Aus would improve the environment but then the kids lose the father.
So really the decision seems to be between having a careen at a place you like or your kids growing up with a father. I know what I’d choose but everyone is different so depends on your values and priorities.
A mid ground decision could be part time work and make a big effort to see it as a hobby so day to day issues don’t bother you.
Hubby233@reddit
It's not even said that the kid will lose its father. The kid may lose its mother, as it isn't so straightforward to take a child across the globe to Australia without its father's permission.
MiningInvestorGuy@reddit
Very true.
MajesticTomatillo@reddit
Not sure if you’re able to look at other cities for work? You could maybe try that… although it does sound like you’re more happy with the French system than the city.
If you’re open to looking out of the country but still close Brussels (Belgium) might be also be an option. Culturally Belgium is a lot more chill and there are plenty of former Parisians who prefer it to Paris. Might sound drastic looking into another country, but Bxl isn’t that far away. No idea what your sector looks like or how/if it’s (much) different from the French system, but could be worth a shot.
quakecountry@reddit
Have you considered marriage counseling?
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
we tried but it was not helpful, it brought up a lot of questions and no answers on either part
quakecountry@reddit
It sounds as though you have made many sacrifices. I think you have gone above and beyond. You have to take care of yourself before you can take care of anyone else. Your heart deserves to sing again. Whatever decision you make will be right decision for you.
SeanBourne@reddit
If the compromise was you move to France for him, and you guys have kids for you... IMO he should 'pony up' and accept there's going to be a second kid.
That said, do you see your workload lessening enough to give you enough time with two kids in future?
Small FWIW - I think the schooling in France is going to be much better for your kids than in Australia. As you're a doctor and he's an academic, I could see that mattering more to you both than many others.
Obviously a tough situation as you both still love each other, yet France can be tough. My sympathies, seriously.
No_Entrance_1755@reddit
I would try and stick out finishing the supervised doctor stage, a LOT opens up once youre there and you can move work more freely. Youre in a high stress situation, new work, new area, new kid, new new new, its expected to struggle, and its ok.
You two should talk about how youre doing, find a way to make it better for you two.
Save_A_Prayer@reddit
Could you live and work in Germany or Switzerland and he could spend weekends with you? Higher incomes perhaps
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
Unfortunately that would require me to learn German and I just spent 3 years learning French so I'm kinda exhausted
Save_A_Prayer@reddit
Maybe the French speaking part of Switzerland then
YetAnotherGuy2@reddit
I'm sure part of your calculation is "if I don't have a second child with him now, that's it for me" given the ages involved. Honestly it looks like you chose this route because of the ages involved and have come to regret it.
It can take long to really feel comfortable in a new country, but if there is nothing you enjoy about it, then it's not going to get better after 3 years - you gave it a good shot, I'd say.
Ask yourself if you would still feel conflicted about staying were the child thing not involved and explore it. Ask yourself to envision where you would be in 2 years or 7 years excluding the children calculation. If that's not something you can really look forward to, I think you have a very serious conversation ahead of you.
TheBurningQuill@reddit
To add to this, the longer it goes on, the harder the kid will find it to move. Once friendships are established and schools are done et,.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
thanks for your comment, it's really helpful
doc-oc911@reddit
Wow. This is super tough, only thing I’d say is what you’re feeling is completely valid, but in a year’s time things may look so much different as a consultant or whatever the French equivalent is? I think it’s worth waiting a year to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It can’t hurt x
brokerlady@reddit
Can you try an adjacent to medicine career some sort of consulting it sounds like a lot of your pain comes from being in the system. Secondly happy parents are better for children even if that means they are not together. If you have good money to support yourself single in Australia it’s fine but otherwise you’d be better off single in France
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
I've looked into it, unfortunately it's not very easy to transition from clinical medicine to a para-clinical role, but it is something that I am considering.
Save_A_Prayer@reddit
Maybe check pharma compnies
lieutenantbunbun@reddit
I am so sorry, my deepest sympathies
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
thanks internet stranger
Expert-Ad8784@reddit
It sounds like you are compromising more than your husband is. I'm sure your son doesn't want to grow up with an unhappy mum. Maybe if you want to stay with your husband you could at least agree to a timeframe within which you will move back.
Mashdoofus@reddit (OP)
thank you, this is a helpful comment
JurgusRudkus@reddit
I think you can love someone and still acknowledge that you have different needs and goals. Marriage is a compromise, and if you have given France the ol college try and it's not for you and you are unhappy, then your husband should be concerned about that. I know if my spouse was miserable that would be a problem for me. Maybe there is another third option that works for both of you?
Practical_Support177@reddit
Stay together for the kids never works out
Find your happiness your child will be better for it
CheeseWheels38@reddit
TBH your initial compromise is totally insane, of course we're going to comment on it.
You guys have one kid in France now, right?
lazylazylazyperson@reddit
Well, the kid thing may be open to negotiation. If he didn’t want children in the first place he may be open to letting her return to Australia with their child and he/their son visit back and forth for parental time. It isn’t ideal (I have a son and grandson in that situation now) but everyone may be happier in the long run.