what ever happened to 2-5-2 and 2-4-3 seating configs for 9 abreast airliners?

The industry judged that the 777-300ER's economics was not good enough, so pretty much every single operator went from 9-abreast to 10-abreast circa 2010. Notable exceptions include DL, TG and JL.

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Better than the Aeroflot midnight express where the captain would get all lusty having gorged on red wine and it would be shoulders that get massaged, his mustache tickling the nape of your neck and breathing like an overly friendly Labrador as he pierces the veil of the brown crown and goes to town like he's trying to start a fucked lawnmower, a rhythmic pummeling for the ages commencing with all the rhythmic power of a steam engine piston that would have isambard kingdom Brunel himself in awe of the forces of cosmic orgasm as the moan turns to a bellow turns to a whimper and they collapse a writhing heap on the moist bathroom floor covered in off-brand vaseline and human gravy

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adjust_your_set@reddit

It’s not that the economics of the plane were bad with 9 abreast. They were still very good.

But at 10 abreast in economy the economics are fantastic.

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W2ttsy@reddit

CX definitely built their cabin experience for the Asian market.

Flew it once as a 6ft tall European and it was very tight. Even J feels like a smaller seat compared to some of the other high profile Asian airlines.

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ScienceMechEng_Lover@reddit

9 abreast seating sounds like a dream on a 777 ngl. I'm guessing the seat width would be similar to those on an A380 right now.

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amateurdormjanitor@reddit

My girlfriend and I got a 2 seat row in a 777 earlier this year. It was very nice, much better than the 343.

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I_COMMENT_2_TIMES@reddit

I wonder if someone can do a true comparison of 3-3-3 on 777 and 3-4-3 on the 747/A380. I think the double deckers have weird curvatures with different dimensions for head vs knee room for example.

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Conor_J_Sweeney@reddit

2-5-2 was just abysmal for the center three.

That is, unless you’re a group of US highschoolers going on a school trip to France. Then the 8,000ft cabin altitude and your sleep deprivation makes your uncontrollable case of the giggles everyone else’s problem.

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nickmrtn@reddit

I remember reading 2-5-2 was better in an era where planes rarely flew more than 90% full. Basically the centre seats were rarely actually filled and everyone else was 1 seat at most from an aisle.

Now that it’s more typical for aircraft to be close to 100% 3-3-3 makes more sense

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amstobar@reddit

By this logic, you roughly have 1 seat per row that is 2 people deep from an aisle on 2-5-2, but you have 2 seats per row in a 3-3-3. Am I missing something? I get that the window seat comes with a benefit, so maybe it’s just the grand compromise?

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AnyClownFish@reddit

If you haven’t sat in the middle of five with two on each side, you can’t really appreciate how awful it is. It’s hard to put in words, as technically you have two options to get up, but the feeling of being penned in is completely different to have a window to look out of.

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dejomatic@reddit

I flew several long flights on DC10 and L1011 back in the day. They were only full enough to have people all over the middle seats once. I'd just lay across the 4 or 5 seats.

Nowadays we're always packed and smushed together.

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fuckyourcanoes@reddit

I got stuck in that middle seat once and it was, indeed, abysmal. Plus I was crammed in next to a guy who had just gotten his first Broadway role and he wouldn't shut up. Sweet guy, I was happy for him, but I really wanted to read my book.

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kabekew@reddit

I had that middle seat against a bulkhead, so the seat wouldn't recline, between two people with pungent B.O. on a 14 hour flight to Hong Kong. I had PTSD for a couple years afterward.

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fuckyourcanoes@reddit

Fucking hell, I'm sorry you had to endure that. I'm claustrophobic and have an acute sense of smell. That's my worst nightmare.

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davidspdmstr@reddit

Put in earbuds, even if you are not listening to music.

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fuckyourcanoes@reddit

This was pre-iPods and smartphones. But the rise of those devices has definitely made it easier to ignore people.

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finnknit@reddit

I can confirm that the same is also true of high schoolers on a trip to Spain.

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skbum2@reddit

And Germany

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KderNacht@reddit

Is this a Final Destination reference?

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ARAR1@reddit

? I am used to 3 4 3 in wide bodies

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en-cognito@reddit

I got put in that middle seat on a 14 hour flight. The airline insisted that I’d booked that seat. I didn’t fly that airline again for a good decade after that!

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Nihilus45@reddit

Personally, I'd shoot myself before you find me in the middle of the 2-5-2 abomination

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jhl_x@reddit

I've seen 2-5-2 on an old AA 777-200 and 2-4-3 on VARIG's MD-11. I imagine them being hell for whoever sits on the middle. 3-3-3 isn't better but I imagine it being more practical and balanced, both for comfort and economics.

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upbeatelk2622@reddit

2-5-2 is only a thing because both DC-10 and L-1011 debuted with 2-4-2 and then densified (with the center closet/partition removed) to become 2-5-2. That's probably how the original 2-5-2 setup came into being.

At Cathay Pacific, the L-1011 went from 2-4-2 to 2-4-3 to 3-4-3 before the A333 replaced it with more seating and more space but still lower cost. My mom flew the 3-4-3 config once and refused to have anything to do with CX again for almost 30 years, it was that cramped ;)

Meanwhile, the A350 debuted with 3-3-3 as its default config, and airlines do not feel a need to change that up.

JAL is/was the last airline doing 2-4-3 on some of their 777s.

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yuikonnu_727@reddit

i think ana still has a few 777s with the old 2-4-3 seating config

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eclectictaste1@reddit

I flew the center seat in 2-5-2 configuration in the late 80's from DEN to LHR, and it was just as terrible as it sounds. My uncle worked for the airline and I was traveling using a buddy pass. Got the worst seat possible. Glad they got rid of that configuration.

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Boeing367-80@reddit

In the beginning, 747s were 3-4-2 and DC-10s, L-1011s and A300s were 2-4-2 (L1011s were arguably 2-2/2-2 because a standard configuration had a kind of divider/storage unit in the middle of the 4).

By the early 1980s you started to see 747s that were 3-4-3. In the same timeframe you saw DC-10s and L-1011s go to 2-5-2. I last flew on a 747 that was in 3-4-2 in 1985, across the Pacific. I was surprised it was still in that configuration. Other 747s on the same airline were already in 3-4-3.

The 777 was introduced with 3-3-3 rather than 2-5-2. In economy class, all other things equal, the #1 factor in perceived passenger comfort is an empty seat next to you. 3-3-3 maximizes the number of passengers with an empty seat relative to 2-5-2. In 3-3-3, every empty middle seat results in two passengers with an empty seat next to them, as opposed to 2-5-2 where that is not true.

I was told this in the late 1990s by the then-head of Boeing's passenger experience, so I am extremely confident in this being the reason Boeing pushed airlines to go with 3-3-3 vs 2-5-2 on the 777.

As the DC-10s and L1011s phased out, so did 2-5-2. Then, of course, over time you started to see some airlines go to 3-4-3 on the 777.

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I_COMMENT_2_TIMES@reddit

Very interesting thank you! Was/is the 747 cabin width truly that much different from the 777? I remember reading somewhere that due to fuselage shape 3-4-3 on the 747 is still way tighter than 3-3-3 on the 777.

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Boeing367-80@reddit

747 cabin width was about 8 or 9 inches wider than the 777.

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comptiger5000@reddit

The 747 cabin is wider than the others (except the A380), so 10 abreast was never a squeeze in there (and it was common pretty early on).

At least some 777s started out with 2-5-2 seating instead of 3-3-3 for 9 abreast. And personally, I'm at the point where I do my best never to fly in economy on a 10 abreast 777. It's just a miserable experience being tightly shoulder to shoulder with someone for however many hours (and I'm not a big guy).

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langley10@reddit

3-3-3 is simpler for maintenance…only needs one set of seats. At least that’s the reason I was told.

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nothingbutfinedining@reddit

The seats assemblies are usually still different part numbers. At minimum due to the different armrests which don’t fold up along the wall.

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ballimi@reddit

I could imagine a consultant suggesting 2-4-3 and then charging a premium for all the couple seats.

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cosmicfiend@reddit

Emirates and BA already do that.

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davidspdmstr@reddit

With unlimited access to the mile-high toilet.....

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Odd-Painter-5656@reddit

SHH!!!!! Don't give them any ideas!

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memeranglaut@reddit

I've never heard of 2-4-3 before.

Right now the only one bucking the trend is JAL, they have some planes in 2-4-2. But even they are moving to 3-3-3 because the economics of that extra seat is too enticing to be discounted away. And yes, maintenance is easier as the economics of a 3 seater unit should be too far off than a 2 seater.

Thankfully the a350 is wide enough to mat make 3-3-3 too cramped. I wonder if the 777x will be bigger internally.

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Gusearth@reddit

ANA’s old layout on their 777-300ERs is 2-4-3. I recently flew one from ORD-NRT

This is only left on 3 planes I believe, because as they fit them with their new “The Room” business class, economy gets changed to 3-4-3

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yuikonnu_727@reddit

always cramming econ pax to make more room for first/business class

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clearing_rubble_1908@reddit

3-3-3 is standard on the A350. I'm guessing you meant 3-4-3?

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memeranglaut@reddit

Nope.

https://simpleflying.com/airline-worlds-most-comfortable-economy-class-seat-2025/

JAL is the ONLY one that has its A350 with 2-4-2 in economy.

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clearing_rubble_1908@reddit

That's the 787. JL A350s are all in 3-3-3: https://www.aerolopa.com/jl-351 https://www.aerolopa.com/jl-359-x11

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Alphasite@reddit

There are a few extra inches

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RunsWithPremise@reddit

I remember flying 2-5-2 on L1011's a bunch. That middle row SUCKED and it was hard to see the movie screen. Obviously, this was long before we all had our own individual screens. You just had the headphones that were tubes to the little armrest speaker and one movie to watch together on the flight.

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12brick@reddit

Swissair used to have a 3-4-2 config on their MD-11s but in the end 3-3-3 became more sensible for the larger widebodies.

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audio-nut@reddit

I’m not sure if it’s still true but the IFE underseat units only could support 3 screens so a row of 4 required two units.