FSDO, or not to FSDO
Posted by alexinedh@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 87 comments
Hello friends,
This isn’t the typical “jerk at my airport should I report him” kind of thread. I am a CFII and during my early days of instructing, I found myself an older student pilot working on a PPL, owns his own plane, and looking for CFI number 5 at the 100 hour mark. I needed the experience and CFI work is hard to find in my neck of the woods, so we started flying together.
After maybe 20 hours of the basics and pattern work, I’m glad to say I have him his first solo endorsement. But this is where things get complicated. I’m also an air traffic controller at the same airport. I also found a club to train out of, and work a season air traffic control job that has me traveling. All that being said, I got busy with other jobs and our training opportunities became rare.
When we would meet up, his past solo endorsement would be expired and I’d give a new endorsement. Occasionally he’d do a solo in the pattern or XC flight, and one of his restrictions was to text the plan and the weather to me so we could review it together and approve or disapprove the flight.
After the third solo endorsement expired, I told him it’d be best if he finds a new instructor because I just don’t have the time anymore. He understood and said he knows of a couple to reach out to. I’d see him fly occasionally when I was working the tower and assumed he had found a new CFI. But last week another CFI reached out to me to say he declined his training when he saw my former student flying with an expired endorsement and wanted me to know.
I’m not his CFI anymore so is this even my business? I feel involved because my name is in his book and the last (and only) person to give him an endorsement. The controller side of me can’t do anything about this; I couldn’t prevent a plane from taking off, whether I know the pilot isn’t rated or even drunk.
I’m leaning towards reporting because this just isn’t right. I don’t want to wake up one morning and see my former student dead because he thought rules didn’t apply to himself, and I feel o have an obligation to keep a hazard out of the NAS. What do you all think?
Murky-Resident-3082@reddit
Don’t report enjoy your day and night
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
If it’s expired how is it your problem?
Granite_burner@reddit
Traumatic guilt if OP is working tower and idiot crashes on his watch, from knowing he could’ve prevented it.
SimilarTranslator264@reddit
How could he have prevented it? You think if someone that is flying on a known expired endorsement they wouldn’t fly if you told them it was expired?
Lanky_Beyond725@reddit
I'd at least talk to him and give him a heads up. IE a warning. Try to frame it as helpful. I'd go even further and find him an instructor and all 3 of you meet. That way he has accountability with the other instructor now watching him to. I would caution him that if he does it again, I'll be going to the FSDO.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
That describes about a third of the pilots up here in Alaska. My POI knows of three guys that share a supercub none of which have a license and he can't do anything.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
How so? The refs are clear even if you don’t have a license the FAA can still go after you. Unless they are lawyers and can do the paperwork they are going to find themselves in…they might stop.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
FAA is not an LE organization. He told me that they can keep you from getting a license but can't really do shit if you don't have one.
The other instance was a homebuilt plane that landed on a frozen lake in town. It was stinky to say the least without a registration. The FAA came out and took photos, but same thing they said they couldn't impound it. The next day it was gone.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Right, they are an administrative court, not civil/criminal hence no jury, when it comes to actions. Maybe partly cause they are the Federal Aviation Administration….. wild guess.
Now, if the FAA knows the student isn’t qualified and it’s their own plane; You’re correct they can’t impound the aircraft. But having it documented with FSDO they are willingly flying without a license might ensure they won’t get theirs later. Plus I’m sure insurance won’t like they have those types of actions against them. It shows a deep disregard for safety.
Also, if they are involved in any accident I’m sure a court would have a field day with this doucher.
Headoutdaplane@reddit
I'm pretty sure they don't care about insurance or getting a license or any consequences. This was highlighted by a guy who had lost his medical due to bad eyesight and kept flying and had a mid-air collision with his super Cub with a tourist-filled beaver. Killed everyone.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Meh. Maybe they are. Who knows. The guy sounds like a piece of shit either way.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Man in my experience up there I’d hazard a guess that half of all pilots up there are unlicensed.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
You’re probably right.. Alaska is a wild place.
EliteEthos@reddit
Have you reached out to him?
A sternly worded phone call to let him know in no uncertain terms that he is not allowed to be doing what he is doing and that you’re considering throwing him under the bus, might resolve it.
That being said, if you woke up and heard he was dead, it would be completely on him.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Imagine if they also killed someone else. Does OP really wanna live with “those people might still be alive if I did something.”
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Still not his responsibility.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Legally no. morally, absolutely.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
I think the CFI has a moral obligation to reach out to the student and get some facts.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Yes, glad we could both agree!
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Now we can focus on Alaska!
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
lol. They seem to get a lot of special rules. “ for everywhere, except Alaska…..”
EliteEthos@reddit
He can’t control the action of anyone. His expired endorsement has nothing to do with that dude willfully breaking the law… nor would OP be on the hook if something went wrong. He would simply be covering his ass a little more by telling him.
Text message would be best because a timestamped record of what was said and when, would be enough.
OP is not expected to not physically stop him. If this students actions kill someone, how exactly is that his fault?
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
That's the one thing keeping me from reporting it. I'm not expected ensure he doesn't break the rules as I'm no longer his CFI, but I don't feel comfy trying to wash my hands of it either.
EliteEthos@reddit
Literally the only thing you can do is document that you told him to stop.
My other job is a cop. I understand your position in feeling you need to keep people safe but that is beyond your control. I can tell stories but ultimately, you have an avenue here that you can pursue to address this. Beyond this, you’re going to physically stop this person from doing bad things… he could still get someone killed even he when all the way through and got his PPL. You can’t control it. Focus on what is in your control
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Having a discussion with FSDO is in my control. That also would provide documentation that I tried to remedy a known illegal activity. Curious why a law enforcement person is against a citizen reporting an illegal activity.
EliteEthos@reddit
I never said he shouldn’t be reported. But before you go reporting people, you should probably get independent verification instead of hearsay from another CFI. That CFIs word is probably compelling evidence and I’d argue that that CFI should be reporting to the FSDO l, since he has the firsthand account.
Being that OP hasn’t reached out to said student, I believe he should do that first.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Yes. You’re right. That would be step 1, ensuring my report is correct.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
That's not the only thing he can do. He could also report him. I am all in for talking with him first, but if that doesn't fix it, I am all in for reporting him. If he knows the endorsement is expired and decides to fly solo anyway, that is not just a violation of 14 CFR 61.87, but also of 49 U.S. Code § 46306 making it a criminal offense.
EliteEthos@reddit
Agreed. He should report him if that is in fact happening but reporting him without some sort of verification seems premature. Which is why I believe his option right now is to contact him and tell him what is up and go from there.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Correct. It’s very difficult/impossible to control the actions of others. And this is the exact reason you get qualified adults involved who could help the negligent student see the errors of his ways.
Again, there’s a big difference between legally right and morally right. Legally I think the endorsement expiring washes the hands of the CFI. Morally, I wouldn’t be okay knowing they are still flying and my name is last. There’s a chance they forged the date, who knows. This discussion/post has shown a mix of people who are indifferent about the potential suffering of others. I.e. if the student in question crashes and kills someone else. I’m a little shocked people are so callous/psychopathic to give 2 shits and say, “oh well, nothing I could have done.”
I will agree with you it’s not OPs responsibility to physically stop them from flying. That could end badly. But if you know someone is blatantly violating the law, I think we have a moral obligation to do something, right? Even if it’s just having a conversation with FSDO and letting them pursue it.
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
Still, my job is to keep him and other people safe. I'd rather nobody die than have someone die and say "I was right". Sadly my ATC experience has already gave me the "dead pilot" trauma, and I don't want to add more examples.
Schmergenheimer@reddit
I believe ATC has some authority if a pilot is drunk. Granted, the technicality here may be inability to read back instructions. They did stop the takeoff, though, even if it had to be a sheriff's deputy at the plane to make the official "you're drunk" call.
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/colorado-air-traffic-control-stops-drunk-pilot/
As to your issue, some advice I saw on a similar post a long time ago is to just bring it up to the student that you're uncomfortable with it and want them to stop. They may not even be aware that anyone has noticed, and someone noticing may be enough to guilt them into doing it right. If they don't, tell them you'll report to the FSDO if you hear of them soloing without an endorsement again. They may not be fully aware of the safety culture in aviation, especially if they're a low time pilot who bought his own plane instead of joining a club.
They might be under the impression that solo endorsement currency is like having a current registration on your car. They know it's illegal, but people do it because cops aren't actively writing tickets for it. If they know someone is actually looking, they might get their act together.
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
We can delay the aircraft, but we can't stop it. If a pilot insists on leaving, we have to give them a clearance. Even in our FAR/AIM, the 7110.65, we have a whole section talking about how we cannot stop a pilot from taking off or landing on a closed runway. Some videos recently show controllers telling "dangerous" student pilots to taxi back to the FBO and get an instructor, but if that student pilot insisted on flying back to their home airport, the controller would have to give them a clearance.
Granite_burner@reddit
Do you really “have to give them a clearance” if they insist on leaving? It seems advising them “you are not cleared for departure” would be better. Judging student pilots shouldn’t be a controller’s job, but an obviously incapacitated pilot is a different matter. Or one who is doing something like insisting on using a closed runway.
And besides that, it just seems wrong that you have to give a clearance to a pilot who insists on operating illegally, but you can deny me a clearance when I’m operating legally. That seems a perverse incentive.
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
Yes, if a pilot insists and there is no danger to other persons or property, we have to let them do what they want. In a case like a closed and unsafe runway, we won’t give them a takeoff clearance but we’ll stipulate that their departure is at their own risk, use caution.
What I may think is an incapacitated pilot might just be a language barrier, would it be fair for me to tell someone they can’t take off because they have a thick accent?
What kind of clearances have you been denied while operating legally?
bamfcoco1@reddit
“Can you tell us what number we are for the sequence, we’re going to be tight on fuel”
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
I mean as a regular human being you can call the cops if you see a drunk person get into a plane and start operating it… it’s not like the FAA is going to come out and stop them.
cficole@reddit
I'd talk to him first, but I wouldn't make an accusation. I'd make the call like I was just checking in with a former student, thought of him when I'd seen him solo, and wondered who his current CFI is. See where the conversation goes from there, moving on to talking about solo without current endorsement, if he doesn't have a CFI or endorsement.
AbbreviationsRare303@reddit
Nope. Stay out of it. He may have found a CFI. Are your certs at risk? No.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
I’m assuming your downvotes are due to your brevity. I agree. Lots of assumptions and hearsay and no liability on OP.
LookoutBel0w@reddit
Incorrect. Downvotes are due to it being a stupid opinion.
AbbreviationsRare303@reddit
Aren’t you the same guy that reported me as spam last week?
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
False. 37 of the downvotes are from my 37 Reddit accounts and I did it because his brevity displeases me. INCORRECT!
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Not everyone is a piece of shit. Some people don’t want dead people on their conscience.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Yikes. I better google my hundreds of students and make sure they haven’t killed anybody in the last 25 years.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
If you know of students doing illegal behaviors I’d hope you would do more than nothing.
I don’t understand people not looking out for each other.
MikeAndAlphaEsq@reddit
You don’t know that he doesn’t have endorsements. You just heard that from another CFI. Why doesn’t the other CFI report him?
If it were me, I’d just start with a stern text message checking in on him.
Granite_burner@reddit
Other CFI may not have definitive proof the guy is flying, which OP does from being in the tower working when the guy is flying.
Jealous_Fail6071@reddit
Your not going to be in any trouble if he gets caught. A lot more GA pilots than you think are flying and even maintaining their aircraft without proper licensure.
Granite_burner@reddit
There are two concerns: Will OP get in trouble, and will student pilot harm himself and/or others. First, as you said, no. Second, which you ignore, quite possibly he will, eventually. Does OP want that on his conscience?
Guilty-Box-7975@reddit
The FSDO will call the guy and ask a few questions. He can't revoke anything as there is no cert to revoke. There might be cause for a civil penalty but lol, sure.
Considering how many CFIs break the FARs (ie allowing a student to solo before endorsing their log book) I don't think you're gonna win any crime stoppers aard.
sound-of-impact@reddit
That's what expiration dates on endorsements are for. Your name is in his book sure, but you can't stop people from doing things. Just look at the countless GA accidents that occur because of hazardous attitudes.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
Yea maybe I’m missing something here, but the endorsement expires for a reason. I don’t get all of these top comments saying to talk to the guy. OPs liability ended with the expiration of the old endorsement. The student isn’t flying on OPs old endorsement. The student is flying on NO endorsement… now whether you think that’s worthy of FSDO notification is a different story, assuming it’s known that nobody has given him another one 🤷♂️
saml01@reddit
People assume that everyone is rational and reasonable. Which is generally a good disposition to have. But this kind of situation has been posted about before. This week everyone say to talk to the student. Last week, people were recommending the FSDO for a pilot falsifying log books.
50shadesofdip@reddit
Talk to them, then fsdo
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
Yeah I think this is the play.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Exactly the value of the endorsement in my opinion.
x4457@reddit
Start with talking to him. See what happens.
"Hey man, you're flying on an expired endorsement that has my name on it. I'd really appreciate if you didn't do that. Please find another instructor to finish your training."
saml01@reddit
The guys already anti-authoritative, what makes you think he will listen?
This is a foregone conclusion, either go to the FSDO or let the guy keep flying until he isnt one way or the other.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
I agree with contacting them first before reporting them but I would be more firm than "I'd appreciate if you don't do that do that". Somethin like "Don't do it. It is a regulatory violation and a criminal violation too, and you could get reported".
shaftman14@reddit
An follow it up with something in writing…even just text or email. Make a paper-trail.
MeatServo1@reddit
“Hey, bro. Just a quick text to say you can reach out if you have any questions, but it’s really important you not fly on expired endorsements. Let me know if you need help finding another instructor to finish your training with.”
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
Yeah I suppose this is probably the best way to go. FSDO seems the nuclear option, if I can get him to stop without bringing dad into the picture I guess that's still a win.
durrow@reddit
Agreed.
TheViceroy919@reddit
He's not flying on your endorsement, he's not flying on any endorsement at all. The expiration date is on there for a reason. If it was me, he would get one courtesy phone call in case he doesn't realize. Beyond that though it's reckless operation and I would probably escalate.
taggingtechnician@reddit
I just finished the book, THE KILLING ZONE by Paul A. Craig, highly recommended. I advise notifying via email reminding him that your solo endorsement has expired and that he is required by law to obtain a valid solo endorsement prior to flying his or any aircraft.
Until you inspect his logbook, you cannot state factually that he has not received an endorsement from someone. He might have a solo endorsement; let the FAA determine his status and whether he is illegal and/or unsafe.
I get it, you feel some sense of ownership of the risk since he was once a student, but you set your own boundaries. If another CFI has observed him flying without a valid endorsement, then it is that CFI's duty to report it. If you observed him flying and can confirm his logbook does not contain a valid CFI endorsement, then it is your duty to report him without delay.
Advise your CFI buddy to report him, if he can confirm there is no valid endorsement.
Owning an airplane is very empowering, and risk blindness is deadly, it is true.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
I don’t have an opinion on this particular scenario only because I believe if the endorsement is expired it’s got nothing to do with you anymore, but what I do find curious is how you can’t stop him from taking off. If you’re on duty, are you obligated to give a taxi / takeoff clearance? If you knew someone was flying illegally or dangerously - like drunk in your example - couldn’t you do something like that?
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
That's correct. Controllers aren't the sky police, that's FSDO's job. Theres stories of controllers who have suspected pilots were impaired so they gave them taxi instructions all around the airport waiting for police to show up. But Controllers don't even have authority to prevent an aircraft from taking off or landing on a closed runway, so long as the operation doesn't pose a danger to other persons or property.
Occasionally a controller will tell a pilot they're dangerous and kick them out of the airspace or tell them to go back to the FBO and get an instructor (like at Mesa Gateway a while ago) but they're skirting a line there. The pilot has no obligation to follow those instructions, and if they insist to continue theres nothing we can do to stop them.
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
I realize you can’t you know get out of the tower and put them in cuffs but i guess i never realized some people just don’t care about getting scolded or having their certs tossed.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
OP should just casually ask him on the radio if he finished his PPL…
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
Yeah that one is a big no-no for controllers. The only time I can remember a controller asking a pilots qualifications was a pilot reporting entering IMC and requesting vectors back out. But we can't just be like "yo, are you qualified to fly that cessna?"
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
I have always wondered why that’s the case… like why would you randomly ask someone who asks for a pop up if they’re IFR capable. Either they are… or they’re going to lie about it. Has anyway in the history of that question ever replied “no, I’m not. Nevermind”. haha
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
I mean. I wouldn’t lie about that. I’d want them to give me vectors for a VFR pilot in IMC.
SaratogaFlyer@reddit
Totally fair - but I don’t think in that situation the pilot is asking for an IFR clearance -they’re declaring an emergency and asking for help. Maybe u/alexinedh or another ATC can clarify when exactly they are supposed to ask this?
nascent_aviator@reddit
According to the 7110.65, they're supposed to ask when a VFR pilot is encountering IFR conditions and asks for radar assistance:
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
theres a lot of factors at play with that. If its a PPL who only has 5 simulated instrument hours in their life, I need to give more advise than just "turn left heading 250." Something like "dont trust your senses, focus on your instruments and start a slow turn" blah blah blah. I also might not know where the clouds are because our radar scopes only show areas of precipitation, not clouds.
radioref@reddit
N42069, pull into the run up area, awaiting VFR clearance. 😂
TobyADev@reddit
So uh, very sternly tell him it's not on. If he continues, then report. Benefit of the doubt first
Staffalopicus@reddit
Why don’t you just call him and ask him about it?
Murphysburger@reddit
We had in our EAA chapter with an Ercoupe. He got signed off for solo, but never even took his written because he wasn't confident in his book learning. I don't know who his instructor was. He flew all over the place unril flew into a hill in Arkansas.
SmithKenichi@reddit
I would turn him in. You said it yourself.. It's your name in his book and no reasonable human being could believe they were doing something above board flying on expired endorsements. Huge d**k move on the student's part.
3Green1974@reddit
Well, three things I guess. First, it’s been a while since I soloed. Endorsements expire? That’s just for my edification. Two, how can you be certain he’s flying on an expired endorsement? Three, he has a history of doing this. You’ve had a chance to talk to him. What is the worst thing that happens if you report it? A. He’s legit and nothing happens, but safety prevailed. B. He’s not legit and you helped stop a potentially dangerous situation, so safety prevails.
alexinedh@reddit (OP)
So theres an endorsement for pre-solo training, that one doesnt expire. Then theres a 90 day endorsement to actually fly solo.
I know for a fact he's flown since my endorsements expired. Those expired in December. While I was controlling, I have cleared him for touch and goes as recent as 3 weeks ago. I assumed he found a new CFI, and had no reason to doubt that. But then I got a call from this other CFI on Friday that said he's been flying since December with me being the last endorsement.
3Green1974@reddit
Report it. You’re not doing the rest of us any favors by not saying anything. The good of the many after all.
AnybodyBorn418@reddit
I have been flying since 1991. IMHO you have to do something. I agree with the others that the direct approach would be best. If he lost control and crashed into houses or another plane and there were multiple fatalities, you would never forgive yourself. He probably thinks he can get away with it and that makes him a very unsafe pilot. Make contact and even try asking who he renewed his solo rating with to break the ice.
EnthusiasmHuman6413@reddit
Has anybody asked him if in fact he’s flying on an expired endorsement? It’s possible there is a third CFI out there that did endorse him. Your obligation and responsibility died at the expiration date. If another CFI saw them flying solo with an expired endorsement I’d say it is that CFI’s responsibility to report after they hopefully said something to the student pilot. This isn’t really your responsibility and you’re acting on hearsay from another CFI. I’d be pretty fucking pissed off if I got rampchecked as a student pilot WITH a valid solo endorsement because a former CFI suspected I was flying illegally. You may be right but there’s a lot of assumptions being made here.
I will say…. If I got caught flying illegally by you in this scenario I’d be impressed with your gumption and wherewithal. But I think you’re underestimating the power of the expiration date when it comes to your personal liability here.
If you think this is bad you should go see the state of Alaska.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Hello friends,
This isn’t the typical “jerk at my airport should I report him” kind of thread. I am a CFII and during my early days of instructing, I found myself an older student pilot working on a PPL, owns his own plane, and looking for CFI number 5 at the 100 hour mark. I needed the experience and CFI work is hard to find in my neck of the woods, so we started flying together.
After maybe 20 hours of the basics and pattern work, I’m glad to say I have him his first solo endorsement. But this is where things get complicated. I’m also an air traffic controller at the same airport. I also found a club to train out of, and work a season air traffic control job that has me traveling. All that being said, I got busy with other jobs and our training opportunities became rare.
When we would meet up, his past solo endorsement would be expired and I’d give a new endorsement. Occasionally he’d do a solo in the pattern or XC flight, and one of his restrictions was to text the plan and the weather to me so we could review it together and approve or disapprove the flight.
After the third solo endorsement expired, I told him it’d be best if he finds a new instructor because I just don’t have the time anymore. He understood and said he knows of a couple to reach out to. I’d see him fly occasionally when I was working the tower and assumed he had found a new CFI. But last week another CFI reached out to me to say he declined his training when he saw my former student flying with an expired endorsement and wanted me to know.
I’m not his CFI anymore so is this even my business? I feel involved because my name is in his book and the last (and only) person to give him an endorsement. The controller side of me can’t do anything about this; I couldn’t prevent a plane from taking off, whether I know the pilot isn’t rated or even drunk.
I’m leaning towards reporting because this just isn’t right. I don’t want to wake up one morning and see my former student dead because he thought rules didn’t apply to himself, and I feel o have an obligation to keep a hazard out of the NAS. What do you all think?
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