Captains (or new captains) how do you shut down an FO who tries to run the show?
Posted by iSupportPalestinee@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 227 comments
I'm a new captain, about 100 hours TPIC.
However I have about 1500 hours on the CRJ 9 and 1000 on the e175 as FO.
Ive flown with many FOs who are great, but just like flying with a CA you get a bad apple here and there.
Case in point;
Dude came from a pipestrel all AP no hand flying. Said he had about 100 hours fo time. He has a newer employee number. Brand new to 121 flying.
Answers the FA whenever she asks me something "CA how long is the flight, when should we sit down, etc" which I don't mind, but should've been a red flag. He decides to hand out the paper work himself. I tell him to put a lower altitude on request and he says he doesn't want to go lower because dispatch planned us at this altitude. He floats all the way down the runway and is way off centerline. I give him advice on how he could fix hit and he just chuckles and looks the other way, shaking his head, not wanting to take my criticism.
There's more to it, but it seemed like a turn from hell.
He's on probation and I can certainly put a safety complaint against him, and get him fired... Or be under the training department radar for another checkride. But I'm not that sour. I just have no idea how the company managed to hire this guy, and if he's acting like this on probation, and especially with only 100 hours, it feels dangerous ahead of his career.
I'm just asking how I can shut down this type of behavior if it occurs next time. FOs with high ego, or who want to "run the show".
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
An effective technique I’ve come across is just pointing out kindly, without judgement, that what they’re doing is unusual.
“FO’s don’t usually answer questions from the FA’s directed at me”
“Never had someone disagree with requesting lower here…”
“We floated more than usual there huh?”
Stuff like that. Gets them self reflecting without becoming defensive.
barringtonsaysit@reddit
But be ready for the replies
“Oh really, I always answer to the FA and the other captains don’t mind”
“The other captains don’t ask for lower”
Nix_Nivis@reddit
Not flying professionally, but this seems universal and I hate it. Makes me want to scream at them: "Turns out the other do mind, they just aren't bothered enough to tell you."
If you're an outlier, be grateful when someone points it out, because rest assured, they all notice.
the_devils_advocates@reddit
That last sentence is key. I try to get my FOs to point out if I’m doing something weird because if I am I wanna know about it. I’d like to think I’m self aware enough and follow the book properly that it wouldn’t happen, but that’s probably when it happens. We’re human after all
Nix_Nivis@reddit
Yeah, it absolutely goes both ways. I may have chosen a certain way of doing things and I might not even change my workflow once I know I'm an outlier, but at the very least I want to know I am an outlier. And especially early on in one's career, one must know.
craciant@reddit
Yes this is absolutely universal. When stuck In a flying metal coffin for days at a time you need to be very selective about your battles.
keenly_disinterested@reddit
You just start with a question:
"Do you usually answer the FA when they call for the Captain?"
If they say yes then you set them straight. "I prefer to stick with procedure; the crewmember called should answer, that way everyone is sure who they're talking to."
dirtypilot11@reddit
I appreciate your comment, but based on your flair, do you think you really have an informed option to present to this conversation?
SalesAndMarketing202@reddit
This is more about communication and interpersonal skills than being a captain.
dereka13@reddit
Probably just old flair but it is funny that he appears to be doing the exact thing that he is advising against by answering a question directed at captains
Loose-cannon1954@reddit
To which you answer: “ Interesting. I have control”
the_silent_redditor@reddit
Yeah, I mean you’d wanna use graded assertiveness to try and at least provide a teachable moment and ultimately better CRM.
But, there’s no point in getting into a pointless back and forth with an FO who clearly doesn’t want to listen or participate in a learning moment. Or, rather, just do as their being politely asked to do.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
In this example the guy has 100 hours so if he wants to argue based on his past “experience”, that shouldn’t be hard to set straight.
haveanairforceday@reddit
This can come off as passive aggressive. If you have a valid criticism i think its better to just say it rather than hint at it
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
This is just saying it. It’s not a hint. It’s directly pointing out an abnormality. But it’s coming from a place of observation rather than criticism which people generally respond to better.
haveanairforceday@reddit
It IS stating a true observation but it isnt stating that the behavior is a problem. It leaves it up to interpretation why you thought it was worth pointing out that particular behavior.
"Most FOs dont answer those kind of questions" could be taken as: "you really went above and beyond there" or "you're a little strange and ill have to adapt" or "your involvement is not welcome" depending on how the communication is interpretted by this apparently tone-deaf FO.
I think it would save some confusion to say "when the FAs ask me a question i would prefer that you let me answer it myself"
iflyfreight@reddit
When I was brand new to multi crew aircraft, I had extensive single pilot experience. I sometimes took it upon myself to do CA things for them, with the sole intention of making the CA “have an easier job/trip” I thought it would be received as I intended it, as I sign of respect. And when I got a comment about “FOs don’t usually…” I thought I was doing things right and it was a compliment on my work ethic. A more direct criticism helped me figure out it’s better to just leave the CA tasks to them. So I totally agree sometimes direct is best.
thereasonableaviator@reddit
Yeah I think this is an underrated comment. I’m still new but I’m still trying to figure out the sweet spot of what is good to help the CA out with and what is being too overbearing. I find that very CA that I fly with is different some like when you take initiative while keeping them in the loop and then making the ultimate decision and others would rather for me to not say anything and just let them make the decision on their own. You also don’t want to have to defer to them for every little thing that comes up especially when they are not readily available which is when I usually will make a decision and just tell them when they get back if I think it’s something that is not too consequential or help us get out on time.
This FO in OPs post probably thinks he is doing an awesome job and just need to be told bluntly to back off a bit. I will usually ask when something comes up and I act on it where it is a little bit of a question of whether it was in my scope or more something I should defer to him in the future. That will also help me in similar situations I come across in the future as to when I need to get the captain involved and when I can reasonably just make the decision and update him as able.
OZZMAN8@reddit
Yeah it's probably good to remember that most pilots have the social skills and hint awareness of a high functioning autist. (Myself definitely included)
Working_Football1586@reddit
Same I find it’s easier just to let everyone do their own stuff that way you know whats done or needs to be done and same for them.
craciant@reddit
I'll add that I have literally, in the past span of weeks, used almost the exact phraseology as praise. I love when FOs do my job for me!
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
We haven’t identified their behavior as a problem yet though. Just pointing out the observation leaves open the possibility that I missed something. It gives them a chance to explain or apologize without feeling like they’re being talked down too. We can get to the corrective statements later if necessary.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
I'd leave the floated landing comment because that's clearly just a new FO thing, but the first two absolutely. This guy just doesn't know what he doesn't know, he'll figure it out but someone has to tell him one way or another.
craciant@reddit
Without banging too deep into a small point... this fo seems to have anti authority traits which can actually be used to your advantage to simultaneously correct the deficiency, earn a rapport, and humble the fo.
Something along these lines "you know, for all the training department gets right, sometimes they miss some of the basics, like the difference between Vapp and Vref... when you cross the threshold faster than vref you're either gonna float or force it, the energy mismanagement had already reached its foregone conclusion"
You're temporarily making the training department the "reason" for the FOs incompetence (small steps, you can't rewrite the dudes whole personality on a turn) but you're opening the door to receiving information from more experienced captains.
Youre still doing him a favor...Otherwise, don't worry about it, someone will smack him eventually.
My other favorite tactic is to (!WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO!) Just sit back and let them fuck up, watch it go off the rails :)
recently had a cocky FO try to take a T transition to a dme arc in South America at 300 knots (an fms limitation) because "there's no speed limit down here" I snickered (knowing full well what would happen, and that we were non radar, so he'd be left to scramble to fix the approach on his own) as we overshot that turn by damn near the radius of the arc, then asked if he wanted some ice cream with his humble pie.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Ive seen all levels of experience float it nearly to a go-around. The experienced guys should know exactly why it happened. A new FO may not, so it’s worth debriefing if it was excessive. Might be able to drop a nugget of technique that helps.
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit
Sounds like this fella isn’t interested in that
Lv_InSaNe_vL@reddit
This. 100% this.
I'm not a commerical pilot, just an IT guy with a PPL but in my professional experience I've found that leading with blame will never ever end well.
Lead with the issue and give them grace and a chance to fix it. Within reason and safety of course.
ShIVWilton@reddit
This worked for me except I welcomed it by ending every debrief with the question of “do I do anything different or that stands out from other FO’s?”
I came from single seat AF to a major. I had never shared a cockpit with anyone outside of pilot training. I had no idea if what I was doing was different from the average FO unless a Capt would tell me so. Obviously there’s a lot more going on with this FO than that, but just pointing out that it can be difficult for a new FO to know if he is outside the norm because he doesn’t get to see the norm demonstrated correctly at any point in a training environment.
AzCactusNeedles@reddit
Give this person a Nobel !!!! Great de-escalation tactics especially in a line of work that requires keeping people safe
No_Incident_4307@reddit
When he didn’t want to request a lower altitude after you requested it how did you resolve that?
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Well now it’s a discussion and we both explain our reasoning. And I make absolutely certain I know what their concerns are. And if I’m absolutely certain their concerns are not justified (seen this at least twice), that’s when you overrule them.
No_Incident_4307@reddit
I like that answer, 737 Capt at a major, I pretty much never run into this. I had one time that I tried all that, and I basically said because I said so. It was somebody who had never been told no in their entire life and I don’t know how they made it through the regional. I guess things are different now. And I had a very honest conversation with them and they were silent. And the crazy thing is the thing they wanted to argue with me about after I explained my point of view I even referenced the book. It went out of my way to explain myself, so it had to be ended kind of harshly with because I said so, and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
UnhingedCorgi@reddit
Haha. Thats kinda how it went for me, both incidents at a regional. Still not sure how tactfully I was able to say “I have no doubts that you’re completely wrong here and you need to stop doubling down on this”.
Rangeexpert3@reddit
Oof, that type. I've flown with students of that type. It's been several years. But before we even started flying for his PPL he briefed ME on how to teach him instead of the other way around. Then proceeded to tell me how he was "not like other students".
Not-A-Pickle1@reddit
So, was he like other students?
Rangeexpert3@reddit
Usually when they say that they are worse than other students because they are very hard to teach and think they already know more than you do.
Ok_Onion3272@reddit
Dang! PM me I’m a check pilot at your airline ;)
drotter18@reddit
Honestly I just had a conversation with the FO saying that some things are discussed with the CA before the decision is made, some things are pilot flying preference. If an FO says I’d like to descend early and I’m the guy on radios, then I just request lower. The FO is allowed to fly when they fly with me.
But when the FA does something incorrect or a ramper asks a specific question, and the FO makes the decision without even talking to me in any capacity. I have simply just said “hey some things still need to be run by me because I’m responsible to know what’s going on as a PIC, and if we have an issue with a ramper it’s my job to go correct those things”
Rsh7576787@reddit
After the first instance, tell him you’ll handle the crew. After the second tell the FO ‘direction to the crew comes from me. Don’t give it without my consent.’ (Don’t even say the captain, say me. Some will assume the role if they can get away with it).
Keep it light, but be direct. If you soften it too much it will be blown off. This comes from experience in the matter…
Regarding the long landing, be professional and give tips. If he sases back tell him innocently that you’ll include the input in the probationary report you’re required to fill out to help him going forward. Let him contemplate that and either listen up or put you on his no-fly list. Either way that works for you.
littlehunty19@reddit
As a newer captain myself, I find it fun to let them do my job for me. After all, they aren’t going to get my paycheck.
The only time I have to step in is with safety related items anyway. And if they make a fool of themselves in the process, well I think that’s the best lesson of all.
hariseldon404@reddit
"Pro Standards" if your shop has a union...
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
Came from Pipi straight to 121... gotta be Mesa.
Ok-Swordfish7844@reddit
I scrolled all these comments waiting for the Mesa call-out and trying to see if I could get a little hint as to who the FO might be 🤭
21MPH21@reddit
OP flew the erj and crj. I think that means skw.
OP I'd pro-stans the FO if he's off center line and down the runway. But also why did you allow those things to happen?
Maybe you need some retraining too???? Gotta be a better PM and be the CA
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
Believe me when I tell you what I’m hearing is right in line with what I know of the Mesa pilot “development” program.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Yeah the Pipistrel thing is about as dead a giveaway as there is
MiniTab@reddit
What is that?
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
Mesa's Pilot "Development" Program involves flying around in a fleet of light sport aircraft manufactured by Pipistrel, a Slovenian company that makes little Rotax trainers.
willpc14@reddit
Are they one of the programs that also make you wear epaulets during flight training too?
Mobe-E-Duck@reddit
No. Just a T-shirt. And a bad attitude and poor instruction and bad habits and a superiority complex and mafia-like treatment of serious deficiencies in equipment and ability.
Flimsy-Ad-858@reddit
That one I'm not sure on.
MiniTab@reddit
Thanks!
RegionalJet@reddit
MESA had CRJ-900s until very recently.
21MPH21@reddit
Oh yeah, I think I knew that
dashdriver@reddit
Mesa had the crj900 up until a year or two ago.
iSupportPalestinee@reddit (OP)
Yes
Captain_Billy@reddit
Dude seems like a winner. Just imagine the situation in his cockpit after they upgrade 😬
Ancient_Juice_1127@reddit
avoidance bid
ItalianFlyer@reddit
As with all things, slow escalation, but at the end you have to tackle the problem. Start to see if you can reel him in with a more authoritarian management style. Don't ask for his input, give him commands. Some people see a more easy going management style as weakness. That doesn't mean abandon it completely, I like a "two guys flying a plane" vibe as my default setup as well, but know when to raise the authority gradient if necessary. When he interjects himself in operational issues remind him that you appreciate the input but it's not his decision to make. Ultimately he needs to be reminded of the roles of CA and FO, and if you need to have a conversation directly related to it as part of the debrief so be it. If it leads nowhere, write his ass up.
iSupportPalestinee@reddit (OP)
I am definitely a "laid back and cool" kind of Captain. I let FOs do whatever the hell they please, I think maybe he took advantage of it. But I'm like that with everyone else and we got along well. I guess if the other guy sees me as too laid back and wants to take command, he will. Like you said, I guess I need to step in early for certain things.
ItalianFlyer@reddit
An easygoing management style is a great starting point, as we've all learned from flying with bad Captains. That said, authority gradient is fluid, and there are situations where it's beneficial to raise it compared to your typical style. The more experience you get in the left seat, the more you'll pick up on when it's appropriate. Even without bad intentions or attitude, some FOs work better in a more structured setting with very clearly defined roles. Being too laid back will throw them off. Others thrive when you give them operational freedom. It was a learning experience for me too because all my PIC experience before a legacy airline was Corporate and 135. There I always operated as "let's do what we need to do to complete the trip and stay out of trouble", saving Captain's authority pretty much only for go/no-go and other ultimate operational decisions. Given the type of flying and culture where I was at, it was never an issue. I quickly learned that in a legacy 121 that isn't always the best way, although it does work 90% of the time. Unfortunately the other 10% of situations is where it will take the most effort from you, but at the end of the day as a Captain you have to do what you have to do, even if it ends up being unpleasant. If you do end up needing to raise the authority gradient, doing it early usually results in the least unpleasantness and gets the best results. The more you let it go the more drastic measures you need to fix it later.
Sensitive-Bison-1035@reddit
If you don’t mind me asking, why does that type of flying only work 90% of the time at 121? I’m currently flying 135 and feel like my captains are definitely the way you explained it.
cincocerodos@reddit
“Laid back and cool” and be synonymous with “door mat” if you aren’t careful. I know you aren’t suggesting it, but the immediate “he’s on probation and I could run to management and get him fired.” before talking to them in a direct manner about it is a little…concerning. You need to directly tell them this is a team sport and their attitude is directly harming CRM. If they refuse to listen go to pro standards after the trip or if it’s bad enough and they can’t through the trip then I’d call pro stands mid trip and ask for advice, then maybe think about having them removed from the trip. This is the “captain shit” that nobody is going to be able to really teach effectively. If it isn’t squashed he’s going to become the asshole captain that FOs avoid or are too timid to speak up to because HE know owns the power dynamic. Right now you do. Be diplomatic, be professional, but by god use it.
funnynoises@reddit
Someone in the flight deck is the leader so you’ll have to give that impression that it’s you. It doesn’t mean be a dick about it but you’ll need to be more assertive and confident in your tone and decision making. But honestly this guy just seems like a new guy who doesn’t know shit that’ll get humbled eventually from something or someone. Once I had a right seat captain insist on a single engine taxi against my decision of two. It was empty at this field. I said sure it’s your work to do. He was so busy, he knew he fucked up without saying anything lol.
MrChombo@reddit
I get where you're coming from but a flat or inverse authority gradient is just as bad as a steep one. By not taking command, you're letting this happen. And you're the Skip -- if something truly bad happens, it's on you at the end of the day.
I appreciate not wanting to rock the boat but you're not there to be everybody's friend, you've got a job to do. I've had to coach relatively new captains on this exact stuff at our operation, and it's something that comes with maturity in the role due to experiences like you're going through now.
You need to step up and lead.
Small_Chicken1085@reddit
It depends on how they said no to the lower altitude request for me. I mean what was your reasoning for wanting a lower altitude vs. why he wanted to stick with what dispatch gave him. Nothing wrong with solid rationale but that was the first thing you wrote that would have irked me to bejesus and back.
scar1900@reddit
“If he’s like this on probation..” is the key there. 100%. Nip it in the bud early.
jettech737@reddit
Is there a fine line with authoritative to prevent from becoming the next Van Zanten? How do you balance with being authoritative with a FO like that but not breaking down CRM that did exist between you two?
ItalianFlyer@reddit
For sure. And finding it will come with experience. How much you need to intervene will also depend on how egregious the behavior is. Some people will try to push your buttons to see what they can get away with. In those cases you can generally stop it and maintain some form of CRM. When they're playing full on right seat captain, CRM has already broken down and it's time to put a definitive stop to it. The key in all cases is to identify and stop the behavior early. That allows you to preserve CRM before it devolves to being unworkable. Most of the time it starts with little things and if you don't intervene early then it devolves. The longer you let it go, the more drastic measures you need to take to fix it later.
jettech737@reddit
Gotcha, thanks for the explanation. Nip it in the bud when you can.
drrhythm2@reddit
It sounds like the CRM is already at least somewhat broken.
If the FO isn’t following company policies and procedures direct them to the manuals. Make it clear you are holding yourself to that standard. The manuals should also cover roles and responsibilities of each crew member. If the problem is one of attitude, and doesn’t improve despite a number of escalating attempts to discuss, now it’s time to involve the union, pro standards, or another appropriate entity. I’d start with one that won’t impact his career (union maybe) to get another opinion on what is going on and how to handle it.
In a severe case it might be appropriate to reach out to the company, but I wouldn’t do that until other avenues are exhausted.
drrhythm2@reddit
At my company, and I have to assume at most if not all others, part of the responsibility of being captain is specifically to mentor first officers. Whether they are green or have been on property 20 years, it’s part of your job to set them straight. Make sure what you are teaching is backed up in your manuals. I’ll often say something like “I’m pretty sure the callout for X is ‘Y,’ but let’s look it up and make sure because it’s entirely possible I’m messing it up.” That gets us to an authoritative source and helps set the expectation that we are going to stay standardized and that I’m holding myself to the same standard. I’ll also “mentor myself” in front of the FO; e.g. I’ll look up anything I’m not sure about and maybe a hypothetical that could come up in preparation - “hey do you remember what the restrictions are for arrivals near thunderstorms in the vicinity of an airport?” Make things a team exercise and show that you care about getting it right for yourself as much as you do in correcting him.
But in the end, you may have to be more assertive. A small handful of times I’ve waited for a calm, low-workload few minutes and simply said “we need to talk about a couple of things.”
Be respectful, make sure what you are teaching is backed up in your company policies/procedures, but don’t let a weak FO have operate outside your SOPs. More importantly, you want to correct that behavior for the next captain, who make be even less assertive and allow the behavior to turn into a safety concern.
If it helps I’ve been a training captain / check airman for a while feel free to reach out.
Small_Chicken1085@reddit
Spoken like a true Captain.
FlydirectMoxie@reddit
Ask him how each of you will define your roles to the NTSB in the event you are both sitting at that long table in a post incident hearing.
minimumxxxx@reddit
I am a FO and I always prefer direct communication. I sometimes ask after the flight if I can improve something or if he saw me doing something that wasn’t good. Just tell him and clear the table.
Final-Muscle-7196@reddit
“Listen here you little f*ck”
Consistent_Employ975@reddit
Pro Stans baby
arunko@reddit
I remember the first time I had a FO like that. I was 28, 2nd week on the left seat and I flew with a very senior FO was in his mid 40s, he took over everything, like briefing the crew, answering questions directed to me etc. He even dropped the gear without me asking when I was PF on the final. It took me all my strength to confront him in the most polite way I could and he basically shrugged it off and walked away. About a year later, flew with the same guy, I gave him a pass when he took over answering a question that the cabin crew asked me the first time. But the 2nd time he did that with the engineer, I stopped him right there, asked the engineer to wait for a couple of minutes outside, shut the door and told him to stay in his lane and let me do my job and if he had a problem with that he could offload himself and I could even help him with that. He instantly changed his attitude and we have had a few good trips since then over the years. My advice would be to never relinquish your authority to anybody and let them know very assertively that you are more than capable of doing your job.
ananajakq@reddit
Curious how you would handle nipping it in the bud? I’m a new captain.. can you give an example of something you would say to shut it down right away? Thank you!
arunko@reddit
The first time they cross a line, stop them right there, tell them nicely that other first officers wouldn't normally do that and that moving forward I expect them to not poke their nose unless operational/safety related or I am overlooking something. 99% of the times they double down very quickly. The second time it happens, it is a much different and more serious conversation. The third time, it is a call to the crewing and they are off my flight. I offloaded a FO only once. He already had a pretty colorful file in the short time he worked in our outfit. He was shown the door very shortly after.
DeltaTule@reddit
Guys who don’t know how to be good FOs will make the worst captains
Zealousideal_Elk9265@reddit
Nah let the company knows because he is dangerous to the public if he acting like this now he c a n unlived innocent because of his egotistical behavior and being arrogant
JAP42@reddit
Everything your talking about sounds like normal operational differences. Is he just doing things how he was trained? Did you talk to him about who should be answering questions? Was altitude your decision to make, or do you feel you experience meant he should listen to you.
Bluefoxpilot@reddit
It’s not my job to humble or fix them, it’s my job to get the aircraft safely from point a to point b. If they are hindering me in doing that then something will be said, otherwise safe mistakes will humble them just fine.
blimpmech@reddit
This may be unrelated but in dog training if an aggressive dog latches onto something and won’t let go an effective method to stop there aggression is to place your thumb up their butt
NecessaryLight2815@reddit
His Highness definitely needs some remediation. Luckily you’re in a position to do so. I had a hard time at first laying down the law but I’ll tell you what, after some of these guys took advantage of my kindness one time too many, I was over it. Not so much at the major airline that I flew for but at the regional. I literally had a guy that wore his pilot hat at cruise altitude and gave 5 minute pa’s to the passengers as we are holding short number one for takeoff. He also wore his sunglasses in the dark. He questioned everything I did. You are worried about this guy thinking you’re the ass, but honestly he needs to be put in his place.
Rilex1@reddit
every fresh captain’s nightmare. direct, stern commands and not giving controls and assigning him as a “golden microphone” usually straightens out imperfections.
humpmeimapilot@reddit
As a passenger I don’t want a cocky lil shit like that floating the plane I’m in and running off the end. Fix that shit.
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
At this point, you need to bring it up during the debrief with the cockpit door still closed and locked. Nut up and stand up for yourself. Give specific examples of when he crossed the line and assert your authority - respectfully, but assertively. You are never really supposed to flex your 4th stripe, but in instances like this, your FO won’t listen to anything else and needs to be put in their place.
Consider a call to Pro Stans and possibly retraining depending on how bad it is.
GroundProximity@reddit
I'm fairly fresh in the left seat myself, so i profit a lot from the stuff others comment here, but what i found most concerning about your post was this part:
>I give him advice on how he could fix it and he just chuckles and looks the other way, shaking his head
Thats straight up disrespect you just can not tolerate. This asshole has been flying for 100h and does a shit job on top of that, hes not supposed to look away from you when you tell him something, and hes absolutely not supposed to "chuckle" at your input and shake his fucking head. I would have reprimanded him for that, and depending on his reaction absolutely written him up, not my (or your!) fucking problem if hes out of a job, and to be honest he has no place in a multi crew cockpit with that attitude anyways.
Him trying to push it with you and trying to "run the show", answering to the FAs is weird and out of line, but chuckling at your imput, looking away, and shaking his head is something else completely, disrespectful and an absolute no-go. Makes my blood boil just thinking about it.
Starboard314@reddit
So this is a time where Captain means more than being the final decision maker. Just because someone’s the PF, that doesn’t make them the PIC. As the senior member of the crew, not to mention the one responsible for the safe conduct of the flight, this is the time to be assertive (NOT be a jerk, but be the one directing things) and to debrief and mentor as appropriate.
So if he’s answering questions that are your’s to answer, politely inform him that you’d rather have the conversation with the FA as you’re the one responsible. If he’s not following direction in flight as in the case of the altitude you mentioned, I’d go with something along the lines of “I appreciate that, but because of (reasons) I think going lower is appropriate” and do it. If he’s going to refuse criticism, that’s the time to be direct, serious, and unemotionally explain what was wrong, that you’re offering corrective feedback, and you’d recommend he listen.
The important thing is to stay calm, direct, and professional. It’s not personal, it’s professional mentoring. Hopefully this, or anyone else you fly with is receptive, but if you’ve got lingering concerns, that (in my mind) overrides a desired to not get the guy in a bad light. Not sure what union your company has, but I’m guessing in the creed there’s a note about prioritizing safety of the passengers. There’s probably also a note about taking care of other union members, but that’s not a free pass for a junior crew member to blow off the Captain. We teach CRM for a reason.
If all else fails, calls to the CPO are free, there’s nothing that stops you from flying the legs or taking the aircraft, and if you offer the mentorship and it’s refused, that’s on your FO, not you.
I hope that helps - just my $0.02.
IAmPandaKerman@reddit
OP reading this I think it's the best advice so far. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt so I just assume he(FO) is trying to help, but overstepping so I would say something along the lines of ''I appreciate you trying to help me with the workload but answering questions intended for another crew member can create confusion in our roles so please leave those to me unless I delegate to you'' or something like that.
Regarding the altitude, ''I understand your point of view, but I believe this altitude is better because reasons so please request it''. Obviously I'm assuming most FO's would comply, but the ones that don't, the conversation obviously gets steered to who has responsibility for the airplane.
All my flying is military so I don't know exactly how the organization is set up. but regarding writing something up, don't try to be Santa too hard. You're not at all looking to hurt him, you're looking to help other pilots get awareness and get the problem corrected. Don't know exactly your best way to do that, but don't just let it pass is what I'm saying. doesn't need to be punitive
live_drifter@reddit
This is worth $2.00
Looongname_@reddit
This all sounds good, but might I suggest calling pro stans (if you have such a program) before getting the CPO involved. If they're new and genuinely don't understand how things work a non-punitive conversation could be better than potentially getting them in trouble with the CPO.
skibear92@reddit
Agreed. Coming from the dispatch side, but if you never have these talks/discussions/corrections, then it becomes harder to change down the line. That’s how you end up CPTs who misinterpret MEL vs QRH applications, or FOs who captain aggressively from the right seat, or dispatchers who have to give you a revision since they missed something in the initial planning, etc etc. Don’t have to hammer a guy, but it does take everyone to keep standards high. Or enjoy the frustrations and the ASAP meetings…
Other-Guidance@reddit
Newer FO here. I couldn’t imagine trying to “run the show” lol I’m learning a lot every flight and I’ve had many captains try to teach me something new. I would definitely say not to try to get him fired but definitely talk to him about it politely since it seems like he might be one of those guys that gets defensive
AnnualWhole4457@reddit
I'm an FO but I always like to explicitly brief roles and responsibilities as part of the crew safety brief. "You're the boss. I'll give suggestions , input and interrogatives here and there but I'm ultimately here to do what you tell me to do whether it's loading bags or waiting to put the gear down until the last minute." I like to make sure that the captain knows that I'm going to defer to his or her authority 99.99% of the time unless it's a safety thing. I just flew with a freshly upgraded captain who also is new to my fleet. He seemed to appreciate that.
When I was flying cargo I'd have an SIC from time to time on the PDP and I would always brief that to them as well. Granted those SICs were like 900 hour guys building time to be 135 PIC qualified so the power dynamic there was different. Especially on a part 23 airplane.
Scary-Comfortable754@reddit
It's called communication- I'm not going to tell you the exact words to say (like many others here) but you need to communicate to him what you've communicated to us- The guy is a hotdog
SirERJ-Driver@reddit
A strategy I use is to give them a warning about OTHER captains.
“Hey man, look I’m not trying to be a dick, but if you did that with some of these “other” captains they’d tear you a new one, report your ass, and get you into some serious trouble. You’re kinda new and I’d hate to see you mess this airline thing up so early on. I’m just trying to look out for you buddy”
CavalierRigg@reddit
I just barely got my CJO for a regional and I can’t even begin to imagine having the balls to treat anyone like that, especially as a new FO.
Out of curiosity, what was your advice you gave to him to straighten that landing out? What caused it, just lapse in power management?
hawker1172@reddit
It’s normally a fundamental misunderstanding of landing technique. There’s an epidemic of flaring too early and over flaring.
The smoothest landings with minimal float in most transport category aircraft are those where you keep the energy up and descent rate stable until the last second then arrest the descend just as needed for a professionally greased landing in the touchdown zone.
All over flaring does is stall you at 5 feet then the landing is hard and people wonder why.
CavalierRigg@reddit
Roger. I just I’ve never… I guess I haven’t thought about what it would do in a Transport Category airplane if you over-flare, because in small planes you just balloon really hard, but I guess I never thought about how a big plane wouldn’t do that unless you had WAY more energy.. am I on the right track? That’s the reason why they stall 5 feet above the ground?
hawker1172@reddit
You can balloon still or float infinitely at 5 ft until the aircraft runs out of energy
CavalierRigg@reddit
Ah, then I am a goose on the loose and will just need to experience it first hand! I’ll do my best in the sims, I will probably be in the CRJ and I am excited because I’ve heard that it’s lacking in some of the fancier bells and whistles and will facilitate me becoming a better pilot.
hawker1172@reddit
Absolutely! It’s a great aircraft to start on and develop yourself. Youll get a lot of great experience vs. an ERJ.
DeltaTule@reddit
Ok, as a former CRJ captain. You need to be very careful because experience on the CRJ matters a lot—it’s not an ERJ 175.
You have bigger picture ADM that they might not have. But more than likely (actually extremely, extremely likely) these FOs all know the CRJ better than you. And the reason they’re seemingly running the show is because it’s almost impossible for you to know your shit as well as them outside of bigger picture ADM.
If I were you, I’d keep your mouth shut and try and understand what they’re saying and why they’re saying it.
StangViper88@reddit
You should probably read the post. Op has 1500 hours on the RJ. FO trying to run the show isn’t even consolidated yet.
DeltaTule@reddit
Oh I missed that. You right.
Thought this was an E175 to CRJ guy. 1,500 hours on the CRJ is plenty. My mistake
aerocheck@reddit
Pro standards before training dept but definitely contact them if you have it at your company. If you don’t then perhaps an unofficial chat with your chief pilot. Maybe not mention a name but ask for advise on how to handle the situation hypothetically . You can’t stop him for looking at your schedule and see who you have flown with recently and seeing if there is a pattern. Maybe talk to other captains the guy has flown with and see if they have seen it too.
Full_Wind_1966@reddit
Alternate question: how much should an FO take part in decision making? Obviously captain has final say, but how much should the FO be calling the shots on his pf leg?
bean327@reddit
communication is key. brief what you want to do and if you change your mind afterwards, discuss it. captain has final authority, but good CRM can be collaborative.
DanThePilot_Mann@reddit
“Why do you think we need to stay at this altitude” Buddy may have a misunderstanding of the way fuel is saved. Perhaps he thinks that it’s drastic between FL340 and FL320, when in reality it’s probably about 4%, depending on winds.
Sounds like he needs to learn not just the CRM environment, but also the basics of transport category performance.
airbusman5514@reddit
As an FO, I can think of a couple times where I might have overstepped, and one where I definitely did. My CA was direct about it, and we went on to have a great rest of that trip. I remember he used the oreo method: good, bad, good. I wasn't brand new, but still new enough that I was learning the finer point of CRM and crew coordination. I'd suggest that and then escalate if it fails.
JoeManji08@reddit
Being new and making mistakes happens. That combined with not being able to apply or even listen to feedback is a major attitude problem that needs adjustment. If you have a non-punitive avenue for mentoring, like union Pro Standards or something like that, I would call them. They could give you advice or talk to the FO directly.
ananajakq@reddit
Thank you for asking this question because I literally just had his exact scenario happen to me a few months ago. I’m also not an authoritarian captain, I’m pretty easy going (and I’m a young female which may make a difference to some) so I had an FO that was totally stepping on my toes the whole pairing until I eventually gave him a very polite debriefing. The guy then proceeded to dismiss everything I said and wouldn’t speak to me the rest of the pairing.. it was honestly like the worst case scenario. I have no idea what I did wrong. Reading this thread was very helpful for me because I’m sure this will happen again in my career and I learned a lot from this. Ultimately I think some people are just beyond reason and do need to be reported to pro standards. Good luck !
RobThree03@reddit
I would hazard a guess that it wasn’t anything you did, other than being who you are.
When I was a FO I would occasionally interact with gate agents or mechanics or fuelers coming to the cockpit to speak with the captain and then ignoring her and talking to me. I would sit there and just look at them until they talked to her, or occasionally say “What do you think boss?” To redirect the conversation. It didn’t happen all the time. But it did more than it should have.
ananajakq@reddit
Yea I suppose you’re right. I think I have convinced myself that sexism isn’t a huge factor anymore, since we are in 2026. Times have changed. So when I encounter someone being rude/arrogant I never assume it’s my gender. But all of my pilots friends I told this story to immediately said it was because I’m a woman. 🤦🏻♀️ I don’t want to live my life and view every negative interaction I have as misogyny but sometimes it straight up just is. Good thing it doesn’t happen often.
That-Requirement-738@reddit
Some guys just cant wrap their heads around the fact that many female pilots are more experienced and can teach them a lot of stuff. Peak Arrogance paired with ignorance.
mfsp2025@reddit
And it’s an awful mindset. One of the best captains I ever flew with was a young female. I learned a lot from her and still use some of her techniques to this day as a captain myself.
But lots of guys in this industry aren’t open minded..
BombsAndDogs@reddit
As someone who was a dispatcher at your airline (using context clues) less than a month ago, 99% of the time the altitude is chosen by the computer for optimized winds and we expect crews to deviate based on what’s actually happening. You probably will notice remarks like “added hold fuel for poss level changes for turb” as a blanket way to add fuel in case we need to change something. I’ve talked to plenty of captains who I’d imagine were once this FO, and they’re a nightmare and not team players. Sometimes this gig just ain’t for them. *random 2 cents from not a pilot
VillageIdiotsAgent@reddit
The types that feel like they have to do everyone else’s job, too. They are out there in numbers.
RaidenMonster@reddit
My favorite was the former MX officer in the army that wants to help diagnose a problem on a plane he’s never worked on.
Like, dude, stay in your lane. These guys get paid well to fix the issue.
BombsAndDogs@reddit
lol I was a mechanic on F-16s prior to dispatch and I’d never even dip my toes in that lane. I don’t want that in my life haha
birdheezy@reddit
Depending on the personality type, framing it like they're helping you out can also work.
"Hey man I appreciate you helping out (with FA questions) but I'm a newer captain so it'd help me out if you'd let me handle that so I can start to create my own environment/report with the rest of the crew."
areoman99@reddit
Throat punch the bastard. Or take him into the Sim and let him see how wrong he would have been. These are thoughts from a mechanic though lol
UtopianVirus@reddit
You’re the Captain tell him to stop what he’s doing is not normal and is probably in violation of your SOP state the reference and correct the action. You run the show his behavior and actions are causing a degradation in CRM and safety hazards. Safety of flight and maintaining your command ability over the aircraft while preserving CRM is crucial how he perceives you is not. You don’t have to be friends but you should set the expectation early in the flight that this will not be tolerated. If you’re passive about it they will do it to other Captains and the problem continues.
If that doesn’t work I’m sure you have someone in a union who handles this type of stuff reach out to them and have them mediate the situation and find a resolution.
Agreeable-Gap-4160@reddit
Honestly, you've got fuck all experience yourself.
Just because you're in the left seat...dont start looking to your right for respect.
It took 22 years to get to the left seat of a 777. I saw plenty of cunts in the left that think they made it. All they did was bully or expect shit. You would never follow them anywhere.
Your post smells like someone bringing up this n that about every day idiots being idiots....sure there are clowns that do stupid shit.....
welcome to man-management
Be grateful you get to run the show. So run the show. Your post reads like you expect people to await your input. Walk onto the jet, greet the hostie, carry to conversation, tell the flight time, set the expectations regarding turbulence...talk about whatever the fuck you like....
If the hostie is coming to you asking such a simple fucking question as "how long is the flight time " that is a clear indication that she is trying to fill the void that you have created by not being a leader.
To then blame tung FO for answering in your absence is on you.
It's a bullshit convo opener that she shouldn't have to put out there.
Step up and do better.
Be a leader instead of whining about how the FO had to answer the hostie who was trying to give you a soft serve ice cream.....
Start each day trying to make your crew's day easier, not looking for them to acknowledge you as being the captain.
Don't look for reasons why you think they are not respecting you.
People follow natural leaders, not because you got the crunchie bars.
Do better.
BoboTheLhasaDog@reddit
Ooooh, you’re an angry elf 🧝
here4daratio@reddit
Lighten up, Francis
scottyh214@reddit
During preflight, set your expectations with your FO. Make sure you’re both on the same page of who will handle what responsibilities. It’s possible the FO just wants to be helpful. If the expectation has been set, now there’s no question of helpful vs insubordinate.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
I'm a new captain, about 100 hours TPIC.
However I have about 1500 hours on the CRJ 9 and 1000 on the e175 as FO.
Ive flown with many FOs who are great, but just like flying with a CA you get a bad apple here and there.
Case in point;
Dude came from a pipestrel all AP no hand flying. Said he had about 100 hours fo time. He has a newer employee number. Brand new to 121 flying.
Answers the FA whenever she asks me something "CA how long is the flight, when should we sit down, etc" which I don't mind, but should've been a red flag. He decides to hand out the paper work himself. I tell him to put a lower altitude on request and he says he doesn't want to go lower because dispatch planned us at this altitude. He floats all the way down the runway and is way off centerline. I give him advice on how he could fix hit and he just chuckles and looks the other way, shaking his head, not wanting to take my criticism.
There's more to it, but it seemed like a turn from hell.
He's on probation and I can certainly put a safety complaint against him, and get him fired... Or be under the training department radar for another checkride. But I'm not that sour. I just have no idea how the company managed to hire this guy, and if he's acting like this on probation, and especially with only 100 hours, it feels dangerous ahead of his career.
I'm just asking how I can shut down this type of behavior if it occurs next time. FOs with high ego, or who want to "run the show".
Please downvote this comment until it collapses.
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ProfessionalNo8539@reddit
Ya just roll the turd. Your fellow Capt’s will appreciate it….
You should absolutely report him. Someone will talk to him and if he doesn’t change he should have the job. Doing nothing is just ruining everybody else’s day when they get to fly with him.
PilotH@reddit
To Prostans, to be clear. Not the company.
BoboTheLhasaDog@reddit
First question that Pro Stans will always ask: “How did the conversation go with the FO when you debriefed these issues?”
The quickest way to look stupid in the eyes of Pro Stans is to admit that you failed to even attempt to debrief and then reported it to Pro Stans without advising the other person that you’d do so. Don’t be a chickentshit - have 20 seconds of courage to engage in difficult conversations respectfully.
PilotH@reddit
Oh absolutely, especially as a Captain. But I mean if we're already beyond that point, don't go straight to the company. Keep it in the Union.
BoboTheLhasaDog@reddit
👏 👏
SP_Aman@reddit
shouldn't
I_was_unsupervised@reddit
Am not captain but would be inclined to agree with this perspective, gives everybody else a bad name...
duece12345@reddit
“Don’t mistake my kindness for weakness”
Plus_Definition7802@reddit
Subtly pull up your pay register in cruise so they can see you make twice what they make, and say huh that’s weird. I wonder why they pay me double what they pay you. 😁
Baystate411@reddit
twice? on a probation FO? more like triple!
GroundProximity@reddit
I honestly think thats one of the worst things you can do in this situation.
Cdn_Medic@reddit
Buddy is a walking Dunning-Kruger personification with a bad attitude on probation, they really need to be reported and further trained.
This is the kind of attitude that ends up in an NTSB report.
TreetopFlyer231@reddit
When my FO’s are floating, I usually say “do you want me to ask for lower?” Funny in the moment, but also gets them to feel comfortable with asking for pointers
BoboTheLhasaDog@reddit
Debrief. Period.
Keep objective notes on the things you’ve observed. Always start a debrief by inviting input from your flying partners. When it’s time for you to introduce any criticism, use the “Oreo” Method - good, bad, good.
For example: “I really appreciate that you have initiative to get things done, including dealing with the flight attendants. It’s very helpful, but only up to a point. You see, you’ll learn as you spend time in multi pilot operations that you need to let the captain be the captain. That means you need to train yourself to know when to defer to the Captain on an action versus initiating actions by yourself. You may end up finding yourself in a scenario where you take actions that are incorrect and, because you didn’t verify with the captain before you took action, you will find yourself alone in a violation or deviation. Don’t get me wrong, it’s good that you have initiative, but we are an entire crew and the captain is the designated leader of that crew. What are your thoughts about developing a feel for the first officers role in taking charge?”
Here is a second point to consider. Are you being too passive and leaving a vacuum that diligent FO’s are stepping in to fill? As you develop your leadership skills as a captain you will find the right balance between delegating tasks and requiring accountability. I found that when I was new as a captain I sometimes wandered in both directions: sometimes being too assertive and trying to micromanage everything, and other times being far too passive and letting other crew members take over in situations where I should’ve taken the lead. Figuring out the right balance involves properly debriefing yourself and evaluating your own performance.
PhillyPilot@reddit
Sounds like he’s peak of mount stupid on the Dunning Kruger effect
Working_Football1586@reddit
Now you get to experience learning the art of managing personalities and teaching people the job and culture. If someone is new though and is getting out of whack on a landing just send them around. It’s not a good look to let them do something sketchy as the pm and then lecture them later.
Zero_Abides@reddit
This job is half science and half art. Procedure and policy are the science, dealing with humans is the art.
xScar_258@reddit
I am not a pilot and not qualified to speak here in any form, but those of you who are should watch Nathan Fielder's "The Rehearsal" S2The Rehearsal S2
FeatherMeLightly@reddit
"my controls" should fix most of not all the mechanical stuff.
For the intentional sandbagging, when he or she is done answering the FA or requestiny something without discussing, "did I approve that?"
e_pilot@reddit
Union prostans, at least give him a chance to sort his shit out if he’s on probation.
LookoutBel0w@reddit
I’ve gotta ask, who the heck is SEA 747576?
e_pilot@reddit
Atlas
Rainebowraine123@reddit
Delta could fit the bill. Either a 74 type from back when they had then or from another shop.
deeznuts69@reddit
You need to be assertive. That's your job.
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/2013/07/malcolm-gladwells-cockpit-culture-theory-everywhere-after-asiana-crash/313442/
Proud_Loudmouth@reddit
Look him in the eyes and say: ‘I’m only telling you this once: don’t mistake my kindness for weakness. I’m the captain here. Are you okay with that?’
Full CRM.
N1BugUp@reddit
Normally I find a relationship between insecurity and right sear over stepping.
wooder22@reddit
If this is true you should have called a go around for their landings, otherwise you’re not a good captain and will continue to be walked over.
ClearedInHot@reddit
I was a check airman for one of the majors for fifteen years. Every time a new captain passed his type ride I'd lean over to shake his hand and say,
"Congratulations...and now you're about to find out that not all the assholes are in the left seat."
taggingtechnician@reddit
What are the risks to lives if you don't say something? This is poor aircrew coordination on his part and your part. Your observations are spot on: if this behavior is seen in a probationary status, how will it be when it ends? And what if the next captain is more weak but tries to resume the role of captain anyway, will this pilot refuse and start an argument that leads to a crash?
Challenge him one time, and if he does not comply, then file a safety.
minimums_landing@reddit
I guarantee he didn’t act like that with his LCA or he’d still be on IOE or in sims. Sounds like he’s taking advantage of your relaxed command which is sad because FOs like be really appreciate a relaxed captain who keep the cockpit vibe of 2 guys just getting the job done. I would try to crank up the authoritative mindset with this FO, sounds like they need to learn some boundaries.
stuck_inmissouri@reddit
I had a couple FOs like that back in the day. Initially, I would try the friendly approach as others suggested. Most got it. With difficult ones you have to pull rank sometimes. That can be an uncomfortable conversation and I’d probably save it for between legs but if it’s enough of a problem you can (and should) have them removed from the trip.
Hopefully they’re professional enough that it doesn’t come to removal.
Mazer1415@reddit
Someone new to the operation might not be used to multi crew environments. You should talk to them and remind them of the chain of command. You can also talk to your pro standards to ask for advice or assistance.
MuddyHorror@reddit
He didn’t take constructive criticism, at least send something to training
F1shermanIvan@reddit
At some point, and I hate to say it, but you need to stop being so polite.
Three words go a long way. “I have control.”
I’ve flown with guys like this, who won’t take constructive criticism. And who doesn’t get better. They make SOP calls early, or they make my call, stuff like that. Their radio work sucks. You name it.
At the end of a day, where they sucked, and I’m tired of being diplomatic about it, we got to the gate and I just flat out told them that. “I’ve flown with you a bunch, and have given you tips on how to improve and you don’t listen. You sucked today. Your flying is terrible and you won’t take any advice. I’m sick of it. I expect better from you, you’ve been here a long time.” And I called my chief pilot after to talk about it.
Guess what? They didn’t like that. And guess what? When we fly together, they don’t get to do any challenging flying. I do. They fly to the flat areas we go, and the paved runways. They don’t fly approaches in bad weather. I do. If that means they sit there and swing gear for the day and I fly it all, too bad.
It’s my airplane, and my responsibility. I don’t like being a dick (at all) but everyone once in a while, the hammer needs to come down.
SunBeersbyRowsdower@reddit
I had an interesting interaction several years ago when I was a new captain and a very senior FO picked up a turn at premium. He was in a hurry to get back to not miss some event so he was rushing, by my new to airplane, new to seat standards. He contacted Dispatch to push very early without even consulting me and when it was approved is when I found out. I said we may go 10 early but I'm using the extra time to deliberately go through a few checklists and expanded flows. We were at worst on time for both legs of the turn but he was salty. I don't know if he made his event, but I also don't care. He made more than I did that day anyway.
21MPH21@reddit
I'm concerned that you're not actually PIC
If your FO is floating down the runway and your landing is no longer safe/company compliant why TF are you (PM) allowing that?
And, stepping back, if you were CA for an augmented crew, would you allow your PM to not call a GA in that situation? "No", right? As the CA & PIC you wouldn't allow it, right?
Then why TF are you allowing it as PIC on your RJ?
Honestly, you really might need to seek some command and authority training to get the leadership skills you need to be effective.
whatsitallabouteh@reddit
A very simple “I’m new to the seat, not new to the airplane and/or flying” often suffices.
Responsible-Bite-155@reddit
Sounds unsafe and wreckless to me, do your due diligence for the rest of us and report it before he causes another ntsb statistic
Nearby-Medicine9484@reddit
Call Pro Standards. They can provide advice to you and also give him a call to 'assist' in his new role as second-in-command.
50shadesofdip@reddit
Watch the rehearsal on HBO.
sirduckbert@reddit
https://archive.org/download/im-the-captain-now-meme/IMG-20190921-WA0074.jpg
girl_incognito@reddit
Its a balancing act because you can straight up torpedo CRM by berating an FO. But there absolutely appropriate times to sit young FO's down for "the talk"
"Listen, I know youre trying to be helpful, but when the FA asks me a question I need to be the one that answers it, it makes aure that im in the loop on what's happening on my airplane and keeps you out of trouble if anything goes wrong."
Etc. Etc.
Tailored "the talk" for how bad the transgression was. I elected to delay flap retraction after takeoff in the moment on e because I felt the conditions warranted it and my FO moves the flap handle without asking or saying anything... that was a much nore stern debrief...
Then there was the new FO that accepted extra flying for me when crew suppprt called....
"Listen, I know they dont teach you this stuff and thats on purpose, but if crew support ever calls you and asks for me, youve never fuckin heard of anyone by that name, got it?" Lol
ManagedSpeed340@reddit
I have lots of PIC time and am a senior FO on my fleet. Good FO’s know our roles. There’s absolutely times and places to speak up, be authoritative, etc. however as you know we are there to assist the PIC. I might want to make a decision but I always phrase it in a questionary way to the PIC “hey want me to ask for right deviations for that weather?” or “want me to get that?” If the FA’s call during taxi or high workload and he or she is flying/driving. Now, there are some that are very green or just purely incompetent and are only there due to seniority. Those you pretty much have to walk over a bit in order to avoid ending up in an asses and elbows situation. Made that mistake at the regionals. Won’t again.
Now to answer the question just be stern. If he’s a poor FO, stepping out of his lane, attempting to do your job while being poor at it, and just overall a poor attitude tell him. Sometimes you do need a truthful assessment to understand your limitations. If he’s still being a problem child I have no issues having pro-stands getting involved and him being watched in training. That stuff needs to be nipped in the butt early. Bad habits die hard and if he’s already exhibiting them this early something needs to be addressed. Unfortunately too many incidents and accidents have happened due to someone saying he or she lacked XYZ but didn’t feel it was necessary or their place to make a documented event out of it.
DeltaTule@reddit
Nobody is there purely due to seniority unless your airline has an extremely dysfunctional training department. If that’s the case, please be a whistle blower and report it to the FAA and possibly even 60 Minutes.
mushybanananas@reddit
I mean these all sound like discussions. I’ve had FOs fully brief the FAs before I do and I’m like ok sure don’t care, said what I would have said anyways. When filing they say their opinion like “that’s what dispatch said” and then I say “yeah I think lower will be better because of all these pireps” then make him do it again, and if he still disagrees then that’s when you escalate it.
DeltaTule@reddit
FO should never brief the FAs unless under the guidance and immediate direction of the captain. That’s unacceptable.
Financial_Training69@reddit
Couple Left
MontgomeryEagle@reddit
Every once in a while, it is ok to remind an FO that you are the captain. This isn't some violation of CRM culture - it actually accentuates it.
3Green1974@reddit
If it’s been a couple days of you trying to get him to heel, you might have to go for the nuclear option. You say he floats down the runway. Next time, just call “my aircraft” and do a go around. Fill out whatever report you need to for a balked landing and let the company sort it out.
f1racer328@reddit
Why would you take the airplane? Make the FO do the go around. They’re the one who floated it.
No airline I’ve ever worked for has required a report for a go around either. What is there for the company to sort out after a go around? Nothing.
You only take the aircraft if it’s in an undesirable state and the other pilot hasn’t fixed it in a timely manner.
Floating down the runway is the least of OPs worries with their new FO. The real problem is the FOs attitude towards their mistakes.
3Green1974@reddit
A go around is not the same as a balked landing. Taking the plane for a balked landing should generate a report. At that point, it’s out of your hands.
nazdra777@reddit
Please for all other pilots who might have to fly with this guy report them to at least pro stan if it’s available. If it’s not you should make a safety report. Allowing people through the cracks that ruin the CRM environment during their probation year is a detriment to our safety and our passengers safety. Because once they’re off probation it is so much harder to fix the problem.
As for your original question. You are the PIC and everything is ultimately your responsibility. I was very fortunate during my time as a Captain that my worst case scenario was having a quiet FO. But in your situation I would ultimately use my authority as PIC and back it up with both SOPs, FOM, and the FM as much as I can while still letting them know that I’m still very much receptive to there input but my expectation is to operate under what I deem to be safe conditions for us and the passengers. If there not receptive I think it becomes inevitable to report the situation.
From how you’ve described the situation this is not someone I would want to handle an emergency with. And I believe that can lead to quite a dangerous situation.
HighRiskInv143@reddit
Mesa timebuilder it sounds like
ASSTORIA92@reddit
Talk. Not report. Be an adult. And why don't you just let him fly, stop micro managing.
EchoKiloEcho1@reddit
Are you joking? I mean, you tell him what altitude you want and he “doesn’t want to go lower”? He laughs when you give him advice after he lands off centerline? Are you serious? Control your fucking cockpit, captain, it’s your job.
SMELLYJELLY72@reddit
what boggles me is how anyone can fly a plane with such a high ego. like why even set yourself up like that? you’re gonna fuck something up like the rest of us, might as well set the bar a little lower now so it’s not as embarrassing when you do…
Pickles_81@reddit
Not sure what floats all the way down the runway means. Did he land in the touchdown zone or not? If not, call the go-around.
Denim-Luckies-n-Wry@reddit
There are two things going on here:
Thing 1:
You are a very new CA and so are role playing the CA you want to become -- the smooth cool CA who thinks way ahead of the airplane and whose years of experience puts everyone at ease and fosters a relaxed but competent crew interaction.
Thing 2:
The FO has no experience and so doesn't trust himself, and by extension, doesn't trust you, who in reality is the just-off-IOE CA.
The FO interrupts you with the FA because he doesn't trust you. Your casual allowing the interruption is not setting the tone of the wise 10-year CA. It is furthering in his mind that you aren't ready with answers and you need his intervention.
When he takes over paperwork and argues with your routine decisions, he doesn't trust you -- and your failure to correct him is not is not cool leadership -- it is a lack of leadership.
And Jeezuz dude....when he drifts "way off centerline" it's because he's struggling with basic skills -- and your lack of response sends the message that you don't see the problem !
You don't have the experience to play Captain Cool. Tell him that you'll handle the final paperwork. Stop him right in front of the FA -- "I got this" -- and answer her questions.
The moment he drift off centerline, call out "Centerline" and correct him before he ruins your career with a tip strike or an excursion.
unique_usemame@reddit
You have seen and experienced symptoms of a problem the FO has. You haven't identified the core problem (not that you should be expected to be able to). I'm not an expert in human factors, not was I there. However this sounds like someone stressed and trying to impress, which is also the sort of person who doesn't take criticism well. The core problem needs addressing, and you don't have their full history. Was it Colgan Air where similar issues surfaced? I can't remember which accident it was.
I also don't think it is your job to assess whether the core issue is fixable. That seems to be what you are asking here. I would get advice inside your company on how to best report it and let the experts figure that out, along with the FO history.
Reasonable_Health272@reddit
My two cents as a former regional CA and current mainline FO:
Forget the whole issue with answering questions from the FA that had been directed at you, especially if they are general such as flight time, turbulence, etc. The FO is 100% qualified to answer those, and also will command some respect from the FA to the FO. Many FAs tend to downplay the FO role and that needs to change. Now, as the CA feel free to add additional info, but dont let that hill be the one you die on.
As for flying skills, don’t micromanage, encourage good conversation, but also command things such as altitude changes. When needed, restate the command. Pro Stans is there if needed, but try and keep it in the flight deck when able.
ApprehensiveVirus217@reddit
New F/O at a legacy here, but yeah I’ve been encouraged to answer all calls from the back as PM and the expectation is I can certainly answer routine questions.
Anything out of the ordinary, I’d absolutely solicit the CA.
Ok_Excitement725@reddit
This is the way. Agreed.
cpt_konius@reddit
You’re a brand new captain. Experience / time will help you tremendously. 1-2 years from now you will have figured out most of the annoying dynamics like this one. I genuinely believe you just have to go through it. You were never that type of FO so you just haven’t seen how to deal with it yet.
ARoaruhBoreeYellus@reddit
This is why CFIs, DPEs, 121 Instructors, Line Check Pilots, and Captains all need to do the same thing: never compromise safety or proficiency because you’re afraid someone won’t like you.
More_Than_I_Can_Chew@reddit
I bet his perspective of you is all sorts of warped and he as already called pro standards about you 😬😬😬😬.
Seriously, call pro standards and get in line first.
retiredaaer@reddit
Report his behavior to the Chief pilot. The sooner the better.
Q400cactus@reddit
This kind of situation is exactly what pro standards exists for.
Assuming the OP works somewhere with a halfway decent pro standards committee, they'll be able to address the behavior with the FO before it escalates to management, which is usually the better outcome for everyone involved.
WizKhalizta@reddit
Why anyone would have the gall to argue with the instructions of the pilot in command (less safety of flight), I'll never know. ON PROBATION NO LESS!
Proton_Energy_Pill@reddit
As soon as you picked up he was being rebellious you should have clamped down on him. As soon as some people sniff a chance to do things like that away they go.
You could also pretend to be a training Captain and constantly quiz him on aircraft systems, procedures, etc. Don't give him a chance to act up.
dyaddaw@reddit
This pilot may not realize how things work when it comes to answering questions and the paperwork if he’s new to 121 and he is just being overzealous. Have you mentored him on these things as well as the landings? I’m also curious on how you went about critiquing the landing? Usually any comments on flying performance I do with the door closed at the gate after parking. Ask them to tell you how they felt the landing went. Allow them to give you their perspective before you offer yours. If he is happy with his performance, explain why it does not meet with job expectations and then offer suggestions and guidance rather than critique. If this does not effect change, then unfortunately you have to go pro standards. One thing to add is I’ve found that a good briefing before we fly together sets the tone and expectations for the pairing.
Small_Chicken1085@reddit
I definitely would have repeated PUT A LOWER ALTITUDE ON REQUEST after he said no but at a higher volume than I did the first time. Not an unprofessional volume…. But higher and probably verbatim from whatever I said the first time unless I had spoken it as a rhetorical question.
YamComprehensive7186@reddit
Now is the time to correct this behavior, don’t hesitate to document with a First Officer performance review or whatever your company calls them. Also the union or even the Chief pilot is a resource.
Unhappy_Sprinkles121@reddit
Pro standards. Won’t risk his job and it’ll teach him he cant 3 1/2 stripe captains real quickly.
Boeinggoing737@reddit
I don’t know his age but certain groups have a hard time taking criticism. It’s sometimes older and sometimes younger. If you don’t know the language in the FOM I would start memorizing certain sentences. Not landing in the touchdown zone, not on centerline, and rolling eyes. I would make the call outs and talk about it at the gate. He has a few hazardous attitudes, either flippantly disregarding the fom or ignorantly doing so, and his attitude could lead other crew members down a rabbit hole of “I’ll show him” childish dick measuring.
The debrief is an art and talking to people in a way where they don’t shut down is the key. “Hey I was once where you were and I didn’t get a solid debrief that I could actually use to get better or improve but if you’re willing I think I can help and learn some things myself that I can use” and you don’t unload but start with “did I do something to upset you or disregard your opinion early on?” You start with something good and then tell him he doesn’t fully understand the relationship with dispatch and ask questions like who told you we HAVE to fly what’s planned.
The landing thing is going to be a constant conversation throughout your career so know the gotcha phrases in the fom. Being off centerline in an Rj is more forgiving but explain the WHY behind the reason you’re supposed to be on centerline. If you have a stuck brake, pop a tire, … you are veering off. The best chance of keeping it on pavement and where emergency vehicles can quickly get to you is the centerline. Drive the reality of being 20 ft closer to a deadly situation home.
The fom is also going to hang you during a carpet dance in the chief pilots office. Why didn’t you go around when you floated outside the touchdown zone? Why didn’t you go around when you were off centerline?
I would end it with the attitude. It’s unprofessional and dangerous. It doesn’t belong in the cockpit. Come to work, get the job done, and go home. This isn’t rocket surgery but no one wants to play games.
None of this has to be confrontational if you come at it from a position of trying to help. A lot of people would have never let him get a landing after the eye roll. Clap so I know what your hands are doing or removed him from the crew at the next airport.
haveanairforceday@reddit
Maybe ask him to explain himself like an i structor would. "Talk me through your reasoning on that" "can you brief your landing technique you plan to use for this leg" make so that he can do things but its clear hes doing it under your supervision
Sea_M_Pea@reddit
This is absolutely the approach that has worked for me, have him explain his actions to you, you automatically put yourself in a position of power
bustervich@reddit
This worked great for me when I was in the left seat and works great on me when I’m the idiot in the right seat.
fridleychilito@reddit
These types of situations are exactly what probation is for: identify issues, re-train if able, or go bye bye
SupportGold7583@reddit
That’s a horribly dangerous attitude and the captains I fly with always complain about FOs like that. I’d call pro standards
toraai117@reddit
As a CFI there’s no shortage of guys waiting to fill that seat… Just sayin ;)
Aggressive-Radish732@reddit
Recent Former YV so I probably know you. Hit up pro stands. Both the CA and FO on that committee are solid. If its a saftey issue call Crew Scheduling and bounce them off the trip. Sorry bud. For a long time YV CAs had it good with the paused upgrades cause we were flying with 1000+ hrs F/Os which as a CRJ9 guy that went to the left seat in the E75, was greatly appreciated. With hiring resuming the YV CAs are starting to get that more traditional regional CA experience again. Congrats on your upgrade buddy
Sincerely, LAMA
BackgroundConfident7@reddit
I’m glad LAMA is still being used. I made and distributed 250 LAMA stickers when I left in 2007 haha
Negative_Swan_9459@reddit
Address it directly with him. You are the CA.
His response would influence my reaction. Anything from nothing if he seemingly took it to heart to completely rolling him if he had a defiant response to your critique.
MaybeBowtie@reddit
Well damn looks like I’ll be able to be hired pretty easily if these types of people exist in the market cuz wtf.
Shi sign me up with only 30 hours in a 172. I’m sure I can fly better than him /s /srs kinda. Idk
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Your criticism sounds valid. Could there be other reasons they didn’t want to listen. The human factors aspect is really powerful. I’m curious if you put out some vibes he didn’t appreciate? Your username is pretty harsh words nowadays, could anything else in your presentation make them shut down advice from you and “take over” when they should be subordinate? Not excusing their actions, but trying to find cause.
Does your airline have pro standards? What about a union rep to voice some concerns with. I think framing it as not wanting to go to management and see if others are having issues. You never know who else has said stuff to the rep or other captains. Someone like that FO might have already made a name for themselves.
iSupportPalestinee@reddit (OP)
We didn't talk about anything at all the entire flight, except things that pertain to flying. Flew with 20+ FOs and we get along very well. With this guy, absolutely nothing was spoken other than things about flying itself, it sorta made itself clear in the beginning, since his character showed early on. Yes there is pro standards, thanks.
Former_Farm_3618@reddit
Ugh. Sounds like a terrible flight. If you truly think safety is an issue speak up to someone. You’re gonna feel terrible if they fuck up later and hurt someone.
SRM_Thornfoot@reddit
It is you who have to live up to the stripes you earned, do the hard thing and report him. It might seem harsh, but you already tried. It sounds like you gave him every opportunity. He just won’t listen. don’t waste any more time on trying to fix him. There is a reason for probation, and he is it. He would be a liability in a real emergency.
You can relax and not feel guilty. The company is not going to fire him on just your word. Your report will allow them to put him under the microscope and they can take it from there.
fallingfaster345@reddit
I applaud you for wanting to address this with him face to face. A lot of people these days chicken out of any type of hard conversations, but honestly they should be happening more.
Any pilot who isn’t open to constructive criticism is a bit of a danger. He might not even realize what he’s doing, but I think you should point it out just in case. And if he is being intentionally dismissive of your feedback, you need to shut it down. One day this kid is going to upgrade and you definitely don’t want a captain who won’t listen to their FOs. (You also don’t want a captain who can’t land on centerline….) There are so many accidents where ego is involved and ego really has no place in the flight deck. He needs an ego check, pronto.
If your talk with him doesn’t seem to work, Professional Standards is also a good way to go. That’s a nice step in between “debrief the issues” and “get him fired.”
StangViper88@reddit
Sometimes you have to be a dick. Realize you’re not gonna hang out with this guy outside of work or become best friends so lay down the law.
FO doesn’t want to change altitudes and you believe it’s pertinent to? Take the airplane. Granted, I’m at a legacy but if I had this level of insubordination, I would have the FO removed.
74_Jeep_Cherokee@reddit
Honestly, you should have cut the head off the snake at the paperwork thing. As the captain you are the ultimate authority and that is documented on the paperwork. There's the old joke - everything on this half is mine, and everything on that half is also mine but when it comes to the paperwork, that's 1000% Captain's territory.
As an FO I've politely prompted Captain's for the paperwork only to find they were holding it back for a reason and I learned a new technique as a result.
As already said, call pro standards, don't brush it off, that behavior erodes CRM and ultimately safety.
JT-Av8or@reddit
On probation?!! Done.
Busy-Examination8821@reddit
Lemme guess…MPD?
iSupportPalestinee@reddit (OP)
Yes
Cascadeflyer61@reddit
Calm professional talk, say your expectations , talk about areas he could improve on. If he can’t talk about it professionally, tell him we can also take this to professional standards.
MyPilotInterview@reddit
If this was an interview WWYD:
My answer would be, having attempted to bring it up casually in the debrief I would need to have a firmer conversation with him. I would have examples and use key words like safety and risk. I would explain to him that his attitude, especially towards advice will not go unnoticed and that if he continues to act the way he does, he will likely get a safety complaint or on the CPS radar and while on probation it will not end well for him. I would then instruct him on where he should focus his attention, how he can engage captains on his weaknesses and allow them to help him grow. Ultimately if he doesn’t take that seriously or I still have concern if he can safely operate the aircraft, i would follow policy and notify others appropriately.