Paying kids to succeed in school.
Posted by TotallyManner@reddit | CrazyIdeas | View on Reddit | 46 comments
Between $10k-$25k is spent every year to put a single student through school. Effectiveness varies, but getting kids motivated has always been a challenge. Why? Because the rewards are too long-term, and aren’t obvious, and kids need obvious rewards to do things.
So, to fix that, we take $1000 from that budget, and bribe them to do better. Since that’s the only way they can make money for a while, it’s way more effective per hour of work at minimum wage. ($1000 is the average. It would be highest for high school seniors and lowest for kindergarteners)
We divide the $1000 among their classes such that $max/#classes = $per-class.
A’s get $per-class * 100%
B’s get $per-class * 90%
C’s get $per-class * 75%
D’s get $per-class * 50%
F’s get $per-class * 0%
Honors classes get a +25%, and AP classes get a +50%. (Boost to $per-class, not grade %) Each elective class taken that isn’t being taken to fulfill a requirement add 5% to the max pool, but have their grades weighted the same.
Give them an extra 10% on any money they decide to invest until they turn 18. Require a base investment level of 15-20% of the money they earn, so the kids without saving discipline don’t have too big a disadvantage when they become adults. It also lets them experience taxes in a roundabout way, so they’re used to receiving $X-tax dollars when they earn $X.
Potential Problems & Solutions:
- Parents take the money -> have it invested on the child’s behalf before it leaves the school. They can only withdraw it after they turn 18, and getting counseling that their parents have no right to it.
- It’s too much cash for kids to have -> make programs for them to spend it that don’t require them to have the cash. Trade it for candy and toys at elementary school age, video games, consoles, phones, clothing or make up.
- Subjective grading per teacher:
- teachers grading too low: if, at the end of the grading period, they think the grade they got was unrepresentative of their knowledge and ability, offer a standardized test they can take that can override their grade. Which they’d be willing to come in on weekends for since succeeding means they get more money.
- teachers grading too high: every grading period, a student is chosen at random from every class to take the same test. If they score higher than (their grade-10%), they get +10% to their payout for that grading period. If they don’t, more students from that teachers classes are tested until a pattern is either proven or disproven.
Diet_Connect@reddit
How about just taking that money for summer school instead?
Parents dictate how well a student does in school. Having programs to take disruptive kids out of the classroom would be much more efficient. A counselor would be a better use of the money.
Chucalaca2@reddit
This won’t fix anything, the problem isn’t the kids it’s their parents. Kids model their behavior off of their parents, if their parents don’t value education then 0 chance the kid will
Shifting_Baseline@reddit
We did this where I taught, but with gift cards. It worked really well for getting F kids to the D level, but other than that it wasn’t very effective. The gift cards were not extreme though, more like $50 a month.
drkuz@reddit
I agree to some extent, some things this encourages or are problematic though are: 1. Bribing of teachers 2. "Easy" schools 3. Subjective assessment of students and favoritism, this one particularly is a big problem already, and then the logical solution is standardized testing, and then we run into all of the issues with standardized testing
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Bribing of teachers would be harder than you might think, given that a single grade in a single class would be a max of $200 between an F and an A. If a teacher took bribes from everyone they’d be caught in a single grading period. If they took bribes from half the kids they’d be caught in ~2 grading periods. Taking bribes to increase grades is a license-revoking crime. I don’t see why it would be a widespread issue. Not saying it would never happen, but it’s certainly not an unsolvable problem.
The schools don’t determine the test, it’s the same test for everyone using the curriculum.
I feel like I covered the favoritism bits and how to handle them under problems and solutions. (The goal of the random sampling was to catch teachers who play favorites over time). And students can volunteer to take the test if they feel they are “least favorite”) If you feel there’s an area I left out, please specify how those methods wouldn’t suffice.
Most of the issues with standardized testing aren’t really applied here though, because a) not everyone is taking it. b) it’s not taking up class time. c) it’s not to determine grade, but discrepancy in grades. d) funding of the school is not based on them, so there’s no incentive to “train” kids for them.
I can’t possibly cover all potential issues with standardized testing, so please expand on which specific issues this system is subject to if a) through d) haven’t covered them.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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drkuz@reddit
Actually nothing I said was political, I described an economic system.
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LowCommercial4827@reddit
Why would you give any money for c's and d's (unless there's an extraordinary circumstance right there child)?
Taking all of your comments into context, Any average intelligence child at a public school in the USA should be able to get C's with little to no effort. Why reward that ?
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Because you can still make money in life if you get C’s, and D’s at least did something and shouldn’t be punished the same as Fs. If you only reward students already achieving total or near-total success, what incentive do the rest of students have? You gotta get them on the reward pathway to begin with, so they can desire the bigger rewards. Otherwise they give up the same way we see them give up today.
Those kids getting C’s do actually do work already you know. Just because you don’t consider it effort doesn’t mean they don’t. They could be having to take care of smaller siblings at home, or any number of things could be discouraging them from putting all their effort into class. Let’s not look down on them so readily, ok?
LowCommercial4827@reddit
Nobody looked down on anybody. Sorry but mediocrity should not be rewarded.
cat-eating-a-salad@reddit
I mean, in society (which is what school is prepping the kids for) just because something comes easy to you doesn't mean it's not valuable.
Awsomethingy@reddit
I agree with you. This idea should be on r/CrazyIdeas
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Alright, so if mediocrity shouldn’t be rewarded, should minimum wage jobs not pay unless the worker does an above average job? Should the coasters or corporate America not get paid because they’re not trying as hard as they possibly can?
Very brave of you to stand up in the face of this injustice, and ensure kids don’t get money unless they meet your standards 🙄
LowCommercial4827@reddit
Oh I see, you weren't serious and just wanted to play games and demean people with a different point of view. Sorry but I'm not going to engage. I mistook your post as something you wanted to discuss and get others opinions on it. Not simply have people validate your thoughts. Good luck.
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
You didn’t actually have a point of view. You never argued why C and D students are mediocre and therefore shouldn’t be rewarded. Unless you count “they put in no effort”, which is just…incorrect. I mean, if C’s can be gotten with no effort, how do people manage to get lower grades???
Do feel free to make an actual argument.
americanslang59@reddit
Sorry but mediocrity and no effort should not be rewarded.
90% of white collar office workers would receive no paycheck.
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Shhh don’t bring logic into this!
Candid-Pin-8160@reddit
Because the goal is to motivate students to improve and that works best in small increments. A failing student can be incentivised to put in a little bit of effort to get some cash for Ds. Then Cs. Nobody is going to make the jump from failing to a B, they'll get discouraged long before they even get to C. This applies to pretty much all aspects of life.
slutty_lifeguard@reddit
It would also encourage students to attend, which I think it's a major point as well! Even if they are failing, they can still be encouraged to attend to increase their scores with that monetary incentive.
"Well, even if I sit there and get an F, I'll still get something, so I might as well go." Then they can hopefully start increasing their grades (or at least their understanding if it's a test anxiety thing that is just leading to poor scores even if they understand the material, or a learning disorder could be discovered when the student is putting in the effort when it just appeared that they weren't trying before but now they are but the reason they weren't trying was because of the learning disorder, etc.).
If you didn't pay for F's, you might run into the problem of students who failed just not showing up to class. Everyone else is getting paid to be there. Why would they want to be there for free? They're already struggling and having a bad time.
riceewifee@reddit
That’s not how the letter grading scale works though, A is 80-100, B is 70-79 I think, C is 60-69, D is 50-59, and anything under 50 is a fail
thegamerdoggo@reddit
Your clearly not American
riceewifee@reddit
I’m actually a dual American and Canadian citizen
thegamerdoggo@reddit
Soo your Canadian, not American
riceewifee@reddit
My American birth certificate and passport say otherwise
thegamerdoggo@reddit
Yeah but you claimed they were wrong and Canadians are small
Also your Canadian upbringing and life says otherwise, there’s more to being an American than just being a citizen
riceewifee@reddit
I never said Canadians were small?
thegamerdoggo@reddit
I should’ve put a comma, I was saying Canadians are small
riceewifee@reddit
Canadians are small? Don’t you mean, “Canada has a smaller population than the US”?
thegamerdoggo@reddit
Eh both why not
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
It’s not the same everywhere, even within the same state, but in any case, the %s in my post aren’t actually the grade percentages, but the money they get for those grades. It was intentionally not 1:1
The reason I made the %s follow that pattern is because the effort difference between grades varies a lot. I probably would have put D’s closer to 25%, C’s at 55-65%, and B’s at 75% if I were to make the scale again. As is, D’s are getting rewarded far higher than I intended. Oops 😅
riceewifee@reddit
Ohhh the percentage being out of the thousand dollars makes more sense. I know the grade averages are different in different places which is why I pointed it out as a flaw. Also, effort doesn’t equal grade. When I was in high school I worked my ass off in math 30-1 and ended up dropping the class with a 22%. Two years later, I worked hard in 30-2 and got a 57%. Four years after that, I’m redoing the class and aiming for a 75 so I can get into a certain post secondary course. I’ve put so much effort into that measly 75, meanwhile I’ve gotten 90s in LA and social no problem. Hell, my highest grade in high school was from the LA class I would go to after smoking weed at lunch! Plus we have to take into account things like learning disabilities/neurodivergence. I was diagnosed with ADHD at 18 after graduating and autism when I was 20 so I didn’t get any accommodations in school and just had to tough it out
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Don’t worry, I know effort doesn’t equal grade, I was using it as a shorthand for how much harder it is for the same person to go from one grade to the next in a certain subject. Like somebody can go from a F to a D just by turning in assignments, even if they don’t do very well on them. The fact that they turn them in at all gives a disproportionate boost. But going from a low B to a low A can be an immense amount of work, because there aren’t enough areas to squeeze out points from, you end up having to focus on whichever areas you find the hardest.
Also the rewards aren’t really meant to be equal for every student based on effort, they’re meant to mimic how work is rewarded in real life. Which isn’t always proportional to effort. But I would suggest that the rewards aren’t meant to be compared between students anyways. We already have grades for that. The rewards are a reward for having more success than a student otherwise might have without the reward system, however much effort that takes.
That being said, the system is designed to not penalize difficulties in a subject too harshly. No matter how you do in math, you still get your LA reward. There’s no worrying about math bringing your grade average down below some invisible line, because it only affects your math reward.
PS: I edited the %s in the post a bit. Thanks for drawing my attention to that!
Responsible_Lake_804@reddit
This is nearly how scholarships work!
Vitalgori@reddit
It would be great, my sister was getting these and had enough to go out with friends and celebrate her hard work in high school. By the time I was in high school, they weren't giving out these prizes anymore.
Xylus1985@reddit
Don’t good kids already get awarded with access to scholarships, offers from good schools and better job prospects?
slanewolf@reddit
That's the long term reward
paerius@reddit
Need based scholarships greatly outweigh merit-based, least back when I was applying.
Hermit-Gardener@reddit
Why do we call paying students to get better grades bribery?
We don't call it bribery when employees in various businesses are offered bonuses or incentives if they meet performance objectives.
DeathOrCurePlease@reddit
Its been done before.
burns_before_reading@reddit
Did it work?
ben_bliksem@reddit
After tax it wasn't worth the kids' time
Colonol-Panic@reddit
Queue teacher bribery scandals
Oracle1729@reddit
In Ontario in the 60s, graduating with an A average came with a $400 prize. That was full cost of 1st year tuition. Then they lowered it to $100 as tuition passed $100. I got a very plain looking certificate and that’s it.
TotallyManner@reddit (OP)
Ooo interesting! Were there rewards for lower grades or no? I feel like that’s where the real magic happens. Sure, more students getting As is great. But if you can turn the D/low C students into B students, thats something educators and policymakers have been trying to do for decades unsuccessfully.
And yes, consistency is of the utmost importance for this type of reward. If you lower it because too many students are succeeding, it’s worse than not having it at all. It works well the first grading period, but the second grading period, after students have received the rewards they earned the first, are when it really kicks into gear.
I feel like rewarding top achievers is good, but it kind of limits the effectiveness of the reward scheme to those who it’s possible for in the first place. If Billy D Troublemaker gets straight D’s, sees the $400 reward, and works his troublemaking ass off, manages to get 2 A’s and 3 B’s, he gets nothing. He concludes all was for naught, and spends the rest of school spitballing those who are still trying.
Edit: I just realized you meant you graduated after that program had ended, they didn’t just screw you over. My bad 😅